Hey all, first time poster here, long time reader....
After logging about 200 hours in GW and 'finishing' the game as a W/N (highly underrated combo, I can assure you), I decided to create a M/W PvP char and slip into the PvP portion of the game using both of these characters. No, I'm not in a guild.
I put about 20 hours into PvP with my chars and realized that I'm not interested - at all - in playing PvP. Here are a couple reasons why:
1) Extremely tough to get a decent team together.
2) PvP skills seem to be exponential in nature, as compared to PvE. What I mean by this is, while you can progress in PvE at a relatively linear pace, as soon as you hit PvP, you are faced with some of the very best players in the world, who have perfected builds and strategies it would take you and your friends many months to comprehend, let along become adept at.
Does anyone else feel the same way I do, that PvP is pretty much the domain of the very experienced, skilled players, and that regular folks are just meat shields, fodder to those who have put uber-time into the game, making PvP nearly 100% not-fun? I'd be interested in hearing your opinions.
Not The Least Bit Interested In PvP
Denny Pace
Howling Wind
It might take a little while but you should soon get the hang of it and be able to understand the strategies and build used by teams. If you've never done pvp before and jump straight to tombs, then yeah it might look awkard and tough, if your talkiing about linear progress then for PvP its arena's, it usually gets tougher as you advance through different arena's until reaching the tombs.
Weezer_Blue
Try GvG before you disassociate yourself with PvP entirely. Hitting the Tombs, getting your ass handed to you, and saying you don't like PvP is a mistake. You'll like GvG a lot better, because, not only is it easier to get into, it's more pure PvP. There is less ganking (only happens in Guild Lord zergs which you shouldn't fall for after the first one, if at all) and there's none of this "wait for the other 5 teams to kill each other before we join the fight" bullshit.
Aniewiel
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Originally Posted by Denny Pace
Does anyone else feel the same way I do, that PvP is pretty much the domain of the very experienced, skilled players, and that regular folks are just meat shields, fodder to those who have put uber-time into the game, making PvP nearly 100% not-fun? I'd be interested in hearing your opinions.
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Hardcore PvPers played through the game once (most of them, I think) then many rush subsequent characters through in order to unlock skills and such. They know what it is they want from that character, what will work, what will not and they are focused on that alone.
Hardcore PvEers are more like you. They play through the game, experimenting as they go and, when the game is finished, they give PvP a go and often find that their builds are lacking and certainly not competitive in the arenas against players whose sole focus is PvP---players who have researched, twinked and perfected their builds.
There is very little middle ground though I know that it is there. But, for me, I feel as you do: PvP is not for me though I harbor no ill-will to those who enjoy it. I hope they're having as much fun in PvP as I am in PvE. Even with grinding, nerfing and everything, I'm still having a blast.
Numa Pompilius
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Originally Posted by Denny Pace
Does anyone else feel the same way I do, that PvP is pretty much the domain of the very experienced, skilled players, and that regular folks are just meat shields, fodder to those who have put uber-time into the game, making PvP nearly 100% not-fun?
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Not only is it a question of experience, but also of team. You're unlikely to ever do well in a random group, as _individual_ skill is of zero worth, and you're not tuned to the builds of the others in your random team. It's just luck if you happen to complement the other guys in a random team.
Odd Sock
I can understand the concern and quite frankly I have to agree with pretty much everything stated above. The only recommendations I have is to find yourself a guild and if you ever change your mind about PvP, you should also look into voice communication programs. You'll never defeat top ranked teams consistently without those two elements.
Loviatar
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Originally Posted by Denny Pace
Does anyone else feel the same way I do, that PvP is pretty much the domain of the very experienced, skilled players, and that regular folks are just meat shields, fodder to those who have put uber-time into the game, making PvP nearly 100% not-fun? I'd be interested in hearing your opinions. |
i am a long time PVErt as well
there seems to be a completely different mindset between the each type much like the difference between cat and dog lovers (CAT FOR ME)
the hardcore pvp was through the game in a day or 2 so they could get to what they considered fun.
i have more than 300 hours on my elemonk and just am getting to the push to Riverside with henchies
i have had fun for most of those 300 plus hours even though i havent come close to the finish yet.
Nightsorrow
I WAS like you, I only wanted to play PvE and had little interest in PvP - if anything, the end of Pre-Searing combat just deterred me from it (first attempt I got my ass handed to me on a plate, lost 11-0). But then having completed the game with 2 characters now, (N/Me and W/Mo, with an E/R at Lions Arch), I was running out of stuff to do. So I decided to turn my hand to Pvp, as I had unlocked a fair amount of runes from my time playing. I gave the Competition Arena a try, I don't remember which class it was with - and I found that I either got annihilated, or that I annihilated them, either way - it was a learning process. Eventually I aquired more of a taste for it, and now probably spent more time in the Arena than I do playing PvE, experimenting with numerous builds + combinations.
The way I look at it - PvP is just another element, just like the first time you got to Old Ascalon, you will have found killing the Charr a bit of a challenge, now if you create a new Hero, you'll walk through it without breaking a sweat.
Give the Competition Arenas a chance with one of the premade Pvp charas (I found the Pyromancer was the most fun for some quick carnage), only move into Tombs when you're fairly confident and/or have a team of people you have played with before.
The way I look at it - PvP is just another element, just like the first time you got to Old Ascalon, you will have found killing the Charr a bit of a challenge, now if you create a new Hero, you'll walk through it without breaking a sweat.
Give the Competition Arenas a chance with one of the premade Pvp charas (I found the Pyromancer was the most fun for some quick carnage), only move into Tombs when you're fairly confident and/or have a team of people you have played with before.
Sarus
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| You're unlikely to ever do well in a random group, as _individual_ skill is of zero worth, and you're not tuned to the builds of the others in your random team. |
Now you're probably referring to random 4v4 arena and how individual skill in this type of PvP doesn't help. Again I think that's not true. Take 1 iQ, 1 SoW, 1 nU, and 1 Wa member, put them in 4 seperate rooms and tell them to come up with their individual build. (They aren't allowed to talk to each other about their builds mind you). Then take 4 random nubs and have them come up with 4 seperate builds (they can't talk about it either). Have the 4 guilded guys play the 4 random guys and who do you think is going to win? Neither team was able to discuss their builds beforehand so if skill was of zero importance then neither team should have an advantage. That being said who do you think is going to win? I'll put my money on the team with the iQ, nU, SoW and Wa guys. Obviously skill still plays some importance.
The big thing here is knowing how to play whatever build you decided to bring into the arena. You could argue that even if you did know how to play your well thought out build, more likely than not the other 3 members of your team won't, and so your individual skill won't matter (your skill will be nullified by the stupidity of others if you will). Even if this happens you're still gonna last longer than if all 4 people on your team had no idea what was going on.
So, to sum up ....skill is important in every type of PvP and DOES make a difference.
In regards to the original poster I can definitely sympathize with you. The PvP portion of this game has a huge learning curve. My suggestion would be to stay away from tombs for a while and stick with the random 4v4 arenas (the level 20 ones). Once you feel confident there, move to the 4v4 team arena (where you can pick your team). Spend some time learning the basic types of builds you're going to see in the team arenas (mini air spike, hammer warriors, smiters etc.)
When you finally move to tombs most of the builds are expanded versions of what you see in team arena. Finally, start keeping an eye out for decent guilds. By decent I mean good size, nice people, and a willingness to PvP (assuming you want to improve your PvP game of course).
Finally, don't hesitate to ask questions on these forums. There are lots of very knowledgeable people that will be willing to help you out. (Just ignore the trolls and flamers that will inevitably reply to some of your posts).
Spookie Noobie
I'm amazed at what experienced pvp'ers bring to the game and it can be pretty intimidating. I've found though that if you give pvp a chance, read the message boards for strats and play around with different pvp char combos you'll start to get the hang of it. It also doesn't hurt (as you've done) to play a good amount of pve to unlock skills, maybe even change secondary professions to unlock other skills/elites for pvp.
Also, understand there will be times when you get matched up in the Random Arenas with teams that don't quite work to well together or on the other hand experienced pvp'ers which will help bring out the best in a team.
Denny Pace I see you tried PVP as a Monk/War which tells me you're probably being targeted first at the onset of battle, that's pressure. You may want to try a War/Monk, in this way you could still help your team with small heals here and there (while hacking up your teams primary target - distracting it in the very least) and you most likely wouldn't be the prime target early on in the fighting.
Also, if you win x10 random team arena games you get transported to 'pug arena' which I think is a bit tougher, if you're not having much luck there use the map to go back to 'random arena' where the competition is easier because players tend to experiment with different builds.
Hope this helps & good luck.
Also, understand there will be times when you get matched up in the Random Arenas with teams that don't quite work to well together or on the other hand experienced pvp'ers which will help bring out the best in a team.
Denny Pace I see you tried PVP as a Monk/War which tells me you're probably being targeted first at the onset of battle, that's pressure. You may want to try a War/Monk, in this way you could still help your team with small heals here and there (while hacking up your teams primary target - distracting it in the very least) and you most likely wouldn't be the prime target early on in the fighting.
Also, if you win x10 random team arena games you get transported to 'pug arena' which I think is a bit tougher, if you're not having much luck there use the map to go back to 'random arena' where the competition is easier because players tend to experiment with different builds.
Hope this helps & good luck.
Weezer_Blue
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Originally Posted by Aniewiel
I feel that way as well. I think that you will find that a vast majority of players are either "one or the other"---PvP or PvE. There are just not that many who enjoy both.
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after much personal experience, I disagree entirely. most players may lean towards a certain one, but they aren't hardcore this, or hardcore that. if it were really 2 different games: PvP and PvE, with players divided into both, there would be none of this unlocking skills contraversy, and much less problems. but, obviously, there are these problems, and players are not cleanly divided over PvE and PvP.
Tombs is like a slap in the face. Until you get a great team build, and get your guild or common associates to go there with you rather than PUG's, it's really not worth your time looking for a party and then getting stomped in the first or second round by air spikers.
nohooiam
it's surprising to me that a lot of people who played pve are reluctant to move more into the pvp area. after playing a few pve chars, and getting all the skills and items unlocked, there is nothing more left to do other than run uw/fow or farm. pvp should be the place where individuals can find out where they really stand in guildwars.
the mindset of a pvp player (i believe) is that they want the highest level of competition and challenge through combating against real players rather than scripted AI's. the element of winning against another person on a equal footing is what makes pvp such a rewarding experience.
the mindset of a pvp player (i believe) is that they want the highest level of competition and challenge through combating against real players rather than scripted AI's. the element of winning against another person on a equal footing is what makes pvp such a rewarding experience.
FFF_WarRaven
Myself, I prefer PvE at this point in time, there are several things i still need to do suck as unlocking a lot of things, items that are really hard for me to find, even wiht the character i use that seems to find and unlock more than any of the other(by a large % too) i am also in a guild and only a few of the members are really into PvP, i'm really not hot into GvG, i just don't like it, plus our guild never seems to be able to work together properly( least in my opnion) we tend to get mad at each other over little things, it's always been this way with us, and our core members have been together for at least 5 years playing different games.
I enjoy the PVE more because i donot have to depend on anyone to enjoy the game, PvP on the other hand i feel you need to have time to work with others and understand their type of play, querks, etc, at some point i may get into PvP more but at this time i need to unlock a serious amount of items and skills.
Right now im working on my 6th char(deleted 2 others ) a mo/war which at this time is a mo/mes, im experminting with a solo build for uw, i still find myself reading the same skills over and over trying to put together something that works for me, so untill i finish that build and another that needs to finish the game i'm putting pvp to the side, because their are to many varibles that hinder me at this point to take full advantage of the area of the game to make it enjoyable yet.
:::End Transmission:::
I enjoy the PVE more because i donot have to depend on anyone to enjoy the game, PvP on the other hand i feel you need to have time to work with others and understand their type of play, querks, etc, at some point i may get into PvP more but at this time i need to unlock a serious amount of items and skills.
Right now im working on my 6th char(deleted 2 others ) a mo/war which at this time is a mo/mes, im experminting with a solo build for uw, i still find myself reading the same skills over and over trying to put together something that works for me, so untill i finish that build and another that needs to finish the game i'm putting pvp to the side, because their are to many varibles that hinder me at this point to take full advantage of the area of the game to make it enjoyable yet.
:::End Transmission:::
Spike
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Originally Posted by Denny Pace
Does anyone else feel the same way I do, that PvP is pretty much the domain of the very experienced, skilled players, and that regular folks are just meat shields, fodder to those who have put uber-time into the game, making PvP nearly 100% not-fun? I'd be interested in hearing your opinions.
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Phades
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Originally Posted by Sarus
I don't think that's entirely true. Individual skill is always of worth. Give 8 PvP noobs the exact build that iQ runs in tombs or that Wa runs or any of the other builds that competitive guilds use and they're still probably get crushed.
Now you're probably referring to random 4v4 arena and how individual skill in this type of PvP doesn't help. Again I think that's not true. Take 1 iQ, 1 SoW, 1 nU, and 1 Wa member, put them in 4 seperate rooms and tell them to come up with their individual build. (They aren't allowed to talk to each other about their builds mind you). Then take 4 random nubs and have them come up with 4 seperate builds (they can't talk about it either). Have the 4 guilded guys play the 4 random guys and who do you think is going to win? Neither team was able to discuss their builds beforehand so if skill was of zero importance then neither team should have an advantage. That being said who do you think is going to win? I'll put my money on the team with the iQ, nU, SoW and Wa guys. Obviously skill still plays some importance. The big thing here is knowing how to play whatever build you decided to bring into the arena. You could argue that even if you did know how to play your well thought out build, more likely than not the other 3 members of your team won't, and so your individual skill won't matter (your skill will be nullified by the stupidity of others if you will). Even if this happens you're still gonna last longer than if all 4 people on your team had no idea what was going on. So, to sum up ....skill is important in every type of PvP and DOES make a difference. In regards to the original poster I can definitely sympathize with you. The PvP portion of this game has a huge learning curve. My suggestion would be to stay away from tombs for a while and stick with the random 4v4 arenas (the level 20 ones). Once you feel confident there, move to the 4v4 team arena (where you can pick your team). Spend some time learning the basic types of builds you're going to see in the team arenas (mini air spike, hammer warriors, smiters etc.) When you finally move to tombs most of the builds are expanded versions of what you see in team arena. Finally, start keeping an eye out for decent guilds. By decent I mean good size, nice people, and a willingness to PvP (assuming you want to improve your PvP game of course). Finally, don't hesitate to ask questions on these forums. There are lots of very knowledgeable people that will be willing to help you out. (Just ignore the trolls and flamers that will inevitably reply to some of your posts). |
PieXags
I find that GvG is about the only fun way for PvP, and even that gets tiring after awhile with only 8vs8. Still the most fun though just because of the enviornments you fight in. Tombs is full of losers all insulting everyone and either really sucky builds or really good builds that make it difficult to just get immersed and enjoy yourself when everything's so "arena" like.
Try some GvG, it's about the only decent PvP I find in the game nowadays.
Try some GvG, it's about the only decent PvP I find in the game nowadays.
Linkie
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Originally Posted by Spike
I sure as hell do. I find pvp pointless and a complete waste of time. I think it should be removed from GW alltogether
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Shouldn't have bought a PvP oriented game then, eh?
Sarus
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| I think it is more of a question of dead weight. Sure 4 people with skill will tend to outperform 4 people without, but if its only 4 people of 8, then it becomes problematic |
Pandora's box
I have the same feelings as the original poster. I would like to suggest 2 things:
-Working out the league-based competion so that there are many league levels (10-15) and every team has to start at the bottom level. Reaching the top-X will unlock the next level for them, after such a promotion its not possible to play on a lower level anymore (no degradation).
-For individual or random arena introduce a rating system and only allow players with more or less the same ratings to fight each other (Not ranking of fame; rating can go up AND down, and is finer to tune).
-Working out the league-based competion so that there are many league levels (10-15) and every team has to start at the bottom level. Reaching the top-X will unlock the next level for them, after such a promotion its not possible to play on a lower level anymore (no degradation).
-For individual or random arena introduce a rating system and only allow players with more or less the same ratings to fight each other (Not ranking of fame; rating can go up AND down, and is finer to tune).
Divinitys Creature
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Originally Posted by Denny Pace
Hey all, first time poster here, long time reader....
After logging about 200 hours in GW and 'finishing' the game as a W/N (highly underrated combo, I can assure you), I decided to create a M/W PvP char and slip into the PvP portion of the game using both of these characters. No, I'm not in a guild. I put about 20 hours into PvP with my chars and realized that I'm not interested - at all - in playing PvP. Here are a couple reasons why: 1) Extremely tough to get a decent team together. 2) PvP skills seem to be exponential in nature, as compared to PvE. What I mean by this is, while you can progress in PvE at a relatively linear pace, as soon as you hit PvP, you are faced with some of the very best players in the world, who have perfected builds and strategies it would take you and your friends many months to comprehend, let along become adept at. Does anyone else feel the same way I do, that PvP is pretty much the domain of the very experienced, skilled players, and that regular folks are just meat shields, fodder to those who have put uber-time into the game, making PvP nearly 100% not-fun? I'd be interested in hearing your opinions. |
You might think of it like this, PvP in tombs and GvG is like a million extra levels after the UW and Fissure.
There are 450 skills in the game. With 8 players that means you have 64 skills in a team. There are like a bajillion combinations and order of skills (which player has which) that can be made from the choice of 450. There are countless different ways of using them.
There are also different maps. Think of Chess, each side has 16 pieces on a small map and there's a bajillion possible different games. GW PvP is designed to have much more diversity, because of the skills, having more players and different maps.
The 25 missions you face in PvE have very predictable mobs who are not intelligent. UW and Fissure also run like clockwork. PvP is the million levels after Ring of Fire, where it is hard to predict what will happen and every game is different. You can't get mobs stuck on a wall and you can't run away and hope they will stop aggro. That is the beauty of GuildWars PvP. The mob at the front of the entrance to tombs is likely to be quite a challenge to some.
Imagine a well seasoned PvP player/team as a randomly spawning mob who can counter everything you do, like your doppelganger but harder. They know about the game, they know how to counter certain things. You can compete against many by just learning how to counter common strategies. Reading through the online skill lists for all professions will give you an advantage over most players who don't. Playing through as a different profession in random arenas is a good way to know your enemy. If you always get killed by mesmers, go play a mesmer in arenas and learn how they kill. Then you will be better able to counter them.
Ascending and learning how to counter yourself was a first experience of this - and if you didn't want to ascend straight away you could test all sorts of ways of fighting against yourself. Arenas let you do that without doing lengthy missions first, make full use of that.
Think of Tombs and GvG as very high level missions with Arenas as the transition region. GvG is more straightforward and can serve as training for tombs. Then when you have some experience of how to beat just one team in GvG, tombs will help you train to be better at beating multiple teams and so you will get better at GvG as you learn to adapt better.
john little
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| Imagine a well seasoned PvP player/team as a randomly spawning mob who can counter everything you do, like your doppelganger but harder. They know about the game, they know how to counter certain things. |
PieXags
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Originally Posted by Linkie
Shouldn't have bought a PvP oriented game then, eh?
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Also, quit saying it's a PvP oriented game, it's a mixture of both PvP and PvE, not one or the other.
Numa Pompilius
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Originally Posted by Sarus
Deadweight = people without skill = skill matters
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If you take the 8 best guildwars players in the world, and give them random builds, and set them up against a decent but not great team who've got an actual strategy and complementing builds...I'd say the all-stars will almost certainly lose.
The skill is mainly in your build, and how it complements the others in your team, not so much in how you play once in the arena. And that's why random groups will always be at a disadvantage.
PieXags
Yeah I know what you mean, Numa. Most of the battle's wins and loses have been decided by the time the start timer hits 00:00, it's mostly in the overall build of your team that decides the match. Your build can either counter and beat the builds of others or it can't, personal skill in this game only requires you to -basically- be familiar with your build. There's mostly just strategy in this game, (before battle planning), hardly any tactics executed in the midst of battle unless something odd and unexpected happens (which is...rare).
NotACommunist
I consider myself to be mainly a PvE'er. I just enjoy that aspect of the game more. Though I do also like PvP too, but my first taste of PvP was the Tombs and it left me hating PvP at first. A combination of my lack of experience in PvP and the many rude people you encounter in the Tombs pretty much made me even more into a PvE'er. So I played the game through with a few different characters, trying the different classes available. I learned more about the game, and how it works. This didn't turn me into a hardcore PvP'er or anything, but it definetly made me more able to compete in PvP. I'm still not too big a fan of the Tombs, as it's way too difficult to assemble a random group of people that will work well together. Oddly enough, I really enjoy the random PvP arenas. To each his own.
Edge Martinez
Denny, I know folks might disagree with this, but I'd say start small. Sure, you may be the weak link in a team at first, but as you build on what you learn each time, you will start to think more about effective ways of running your skills. You'll eventually learn each map by heart and know what blinds you can use to cast safely from, or what route is the best one to trap. The Mesmer you are trying is an awesome build for learning and improving. I'd say next time just concentrate on shutting down one enemy caster, maybe a monk or an elemental. Win or lose, your fault or not, I'm a firm believer that you have to know your own limits before you can really effectively help a team. So yeah... whoever suggested GvG first? I agree. Get your feet wet there.
On a side note, I prefer PvE to PvP also, but UW and FoW gets dull after the third or fourth time each day.
On a side note, I prefer PvE to PvP also, but UW and FoW gets dull after the third or fourth time each day.
-z|o-
Individual skill in this game = be able to make right decisions at the right moments.
You wont get far with just "before battle planing". Be able to adjust ftw.
You wont get far with just "before battle planing". Be able to adjust ftw.
Racthoh
Hardcore PvEer, touched PvP a bit once I got to the tombs. Played a little bit beforehand in the arenas and wasn't too impressed. Same battle field over and over... boring really.
Tombs was fun when I got there. People would actually take my W/N with them despite my complete lack of PvP skills. Spent a lot of time there, always bringing the same build, gained a total of 33 fame. Finally those 0s on my character screen were gone so I was happy.
At which point I beat the game, farmed like crazy, getting close to one piece of fissure armour. Since America didn't have the favour, I figured I'd try to get back on the PvP horse and try to win the HoH (afterall, I did it once before and now I had 2 million experience under my belt). Boy, what a waste of time.
IMPOSSIBLE for me to get in a group. Impossible to even get one person to even join me in an attempt to start a group. Every district I went to, "LF Rank 3+ people with TS/Vent", or "Group needs monk (as alwasy), at least Rank 4". What the hell is this? I want to test my build but I have no way of seeing how good it would do in a somewhat organized group.
And I don't want to make a monk character. Sorry, I don't want to be the bitch of the group, pardon my language. 4v4 arenas are dumb, everyone is an ass, flaming is just as bad as the racism in the ToPK. How you can stand the same scenary battle after battle is beyond me.
I just want to use my sword and shield, and fight other players. But apparently, the HoH is not the place. Arena's aren't the place. GvG, maybe. But I haven't found anyone I'd want to recruit and I don't want to join a guild that would kick me out because I don't want to GvG 24/7. Well, I got my guild hall despite the lack of sigil rewarded from holding the HoH. I don't need PvP anymore, it sucks, it isn't fun at all. And I couldn't be more thorughly displeased that I have to wait for the PvP players to win the damn favour for me to enjoy what I enjoy doing.
Tombs was fun when I got there. People would actually take my W/N with them despite my complete lack of PvP skills. Spent a lot of time there, always bringing the same build, gained a total of 33 fame. Finally those 0s on my character screen were gone so I was happy.
At which point I beat the game, farmed like crazy, getting close to one piece of fissure armour. Since America didn't have the favour, I figured I'd try to get back on the PvP horse and try to win the HoH (afterall, I did it once before and now I had 2 million experience under my belt). Boy, what a waste of time.
IMPOSSIBLE for me to get in a group. Impossible to even get one person to even join me in an attempt to start a group. Every district I went to, "LF Rank 3+ people with TS/Vent", or "Group needs monk (as alwasy), at least Rank 4". What the hell is this? I want to test my build but I have no way of seeing how good it would do in a somewhat organized group.
And I don't want to make a monk character. Sorry, I don't want to be the bitch of the group, pardon my language. 4v4 arenas are dumb, everyone is an ass, flaming is just as bad as the racism in the ToPK. How you can stand the same scenary battle after battle is beyond me.
I just want to use my sword and shield, and fight other players. But apparently, the HoH is not the place. Arena's aren't the place. GvG, maybe. But I haven't found anyone I'd want to recruit and I don't want to join a guild that would kick me out because I don't want to GvG 24/7. Well, I got my guild hall despite the lack of sigil rewarded from holding the HoH. I don't need PvP anymore, it sucks, it isn't fun at all. And I couldn't be more thorughly displeased that I have to wait for the PvP players to win the damn favour for me to enjoy what I enjoy doing.
Gwenhywar
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Originally Posted by Denny Pace
No, I'm not in a guild.
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Besides guild battles (on teamspeak/vent) is THE most fun part of the whole game anyway, and you have to be in a guild to experience those
Zeru
Builds are a big deal yes but you're dead wrong if you think that teamplay and individual skill are not just as important. Because I have spent most of retail onward trying to raise a guild full of inexperienced and green pvpers I have some insight in this. We once ran a build with several buff stacked warriors, soh/ji and double orders, but because the players playing the warriors were so bad they got outkited horribly or just spent half the time pounding on a target with prot spirit on, doing half the damage they should. The build was very solid, and the teams we lost to didn't have much good anti-warrior hate even, but the players were just so bad at it we couldn't score any sustained kills. Training people was simply too hard, combined with the fact that most of them couldn't play more than 1 class setup; the guild got trashed eventually.
Tactical team movements, especially in GvG, are a huge importance but it is a very subtle thing. I have seen one team actually use them to their advantage and they absolutely destroyed my guild despite the fact that we seemed to have a superior build overall. This is extremely difficult to convey in concept and even harder to understand, but the basic gist (one use of it anyway) is that your team keeps moving the people who are being targeted away from the people targeting them, by doing so you impair their effectiveness to do damage and can create a window of opportunity where a unit is too far ahead of it's healers, where your whole team snares and ganks him before he can be healed. It's way more than that; that's just the simplest way I can think of to put it into words. When playing that team it felt like I was in a starcraft game, trying to micro m&m vs lurker ling. I am not in a good guild so I can't confirm this but I imagine that the best guilds out there make heavy use of such team tactics to achieve advantages even where their builds are weaker overall.
Tactical team movements, especially in GvG, are a huge importance but it is a very subtle thing. I have seen one team actually use them to their advantage and they absolutely destroyed my guild despite the fact that we seemed to have a superior build overall. This is extremely difficult to convey in concept and even harder to understand, but the basic gist (one use of it anyway) is that your team keeps moving the people who are being targeted away from the people targeting them, by doing so you impair their effectiveness to do damage and can create a window of opportunity where a unit is too far ahead of it's healers, where your whole team snares and ganks him before he can be healed. It's way more than that; that's just the simplest way I can think of to put it into words. When playing that team it felt like I was in a starcraft game, trying to micro m&m vs lurker ling. I am not in a good guild so I can't confirm this but I imagine that the best guilds out there make heavy use of such team tactics to achieve advantages even where their builds are weaker overall.
Divinitys Creature
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Originally Posted by john little
I think it's about time that an NPC should be a randomly spawning mob who can counter everything you do, rather than being a set of stats and skills on a website with easy ways to solo them... If only more NPC's were like the doppelganger (except without the sometimes bizzare usage of skills and lack of mobility) PvE might actually be interesting/a challenge.
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There is a fault with the PvP character creation IMO. Under the arena option it just sends you to the random arenas. I think many new players or people new to PvP might not realise there are team arenas where you can select your team and plan builds etc. Before a patch you could choose which PvP only arena you wanted to go to but now you can only do that with RP chars. Having a choice of map meant people could get good at one, and enjoy it, and test a new idea in a more controlled environment. So a player could make a map specific build, get proficient at it and then move on when they were ready. Maps like The Crag didn't get much attention though and were often deserted (wonder why).
Denny Pace
I want to thank everyone who's given their opinion on this so far. Lots of good ideas, lots to think about. As forums are generally very negative places, it's a nice surprise to see the mostly positive tone of the responses here.
I should mention to those who noted that I tried a M/W for PvP that I spent most of my time in PvP using my W/N (curses Necro). It didn't seem to make much of a difference, with the exception that my Monk was always in demand, and my warrior was hardly ever in demand.
I think, in the end, I'm going to have to find a laid-back guild somehow, one that wouldn't mind taking someone who can't be there five nights a week and is pretty much at a n00b level when it comes to PvP.
Finally, feel free to look me up in-game (American). Mention the GW Guru forums and I'll be happy to join up with you in your adventures.
I should mention to those who noted that I tried a M/W for PvP that I spent most of my time in PvP using my W/N (curses Necro). It didn't seem to make much of a difference, with the exception that my Monk was always in demand, and my warrior was hardly ever in demand.
I think, in the end, I'm going to have to find a laid-back guild somehow, one that wouldn't mind taking someone who can't be there five nights a week and is pretty much at a n00b level when it comes to PvP.
Finally, feel free to look me up in-game (American). Mention the GW Guru forums and I'll be happy to join up with you in your adventures.
Sarus
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| If you take the 8 best guildwars players in the world, and give them random builds, and set them up against a decent but not great team who've got an actual strategy and complementing builds |
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| The skill is mainly in your build, and how it complements the others in your team, not so much in how you play once in the arena. And that's why random groups will always be at a disadvantage. |
Arturo02
oh man, so far this seems to be one of the most balanced pvp systems I have ever seen. I played UO for five years and began getting into pvp there but it is so fubared. And there's all kinds of alliances and truces so I'm limited who to actually fight without it coming back on my guild.
I think you should really give it a full commitment. If there was a game to do pvp in, your in the best spot. Going to another game means less balance and starting over again too.
Do like I did. I got here a month ago and I decided if I was to be good at pvp the first thing is get a lot of fights under my belt. When I hit lev 8 with Cunnito, I sat in ascalon arena for a week, fighting 2-3 hours a night. Then I did some missions, worked my way up to Shiv last week. My plan is to go back and forth, arena time once I make it to one, then to missions to get to next arena or comp fighting area. Pve to get to the pvp I guess you could say.
Becoming an arena rat won't make you the best. But I do think it will help you improve. Just get out once you stop learning and move onto harder competition.
I think you should really give it a full commitment. If there was a game to do pvp in, your in the best spot. Going to another game means less balance and starting over again too.
Do like I did. I got here a month ago and I decided if I was to be good at pvp the first thing is get a lot of fights under my belt. When I hit lev 8 with Cunnito, I sat in ascalon arena for a week, fighting 2-3 hours a night. Then I did some missions, worked my way up to Shiv last week. My plan is to go back and forth, arena time once I make it to one, then to missions to get to next arena or comp fighting area. Pve to get to the pvp I guess you could say.
Becoming an arena rat won't make you the best. But I do think it will help you improve. Just get out once you stop learning and move onto harder competition.
Aria
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Originally Posted by Sarus
Good builds are hard to play correctly in every situation (holding the dais, running the relic, against air spike, against spirit spammers, against 2 team ganks etc.) and how you play the build is very very important.
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And that doesn't even include all of the basics. There are skill specific things that you also need to pay attention to -- such as on which member to throw the prot. spirit on and when, knowing how to get the most out of channeling, etc. If you want a more detailed example, you can take the premade boon healer. 75% of the players that I've played with don't know how to use it. They top off at every single opportunity, and when the mass healing is needed, they're out of energy despite offering of blood.
That said, to everyone else, please don't get scared of PvP.
I started out playing entirely pve, and gradually moved onto arenas and haunted that spot for a while. When I felt comfortable, I started GvGing with my old guild.A tip though -- if you want to be serious at PvP, and want to dip your toes into tombs, definitely find a team with either Ventrilo or Teamspeak. Not having fast communication in GW PvP is not only a huge cripple, but also often makes 8v8 more confusing and random at best.
Phades
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Originally Posted by Sarus
Deadweight = people without skill = skill matters
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Sarus
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| Skill of the group > skill of the individual |
PieXags
Perhaps he means...
Skill and ability to work with your group > skill and ability to work independently...? I'd have to say that's true as well.
Skill and ability to work with your group > skill and ability to work independently...? I'd have to say that's true as well.
Phades
It is a little of both to be honest. Being able to prepare properly and follow directions is not quite the same as situational awareness and intuition. They are both skills in a sense, but on very different levels. Typically when people talk about skill, i find that it is more in the reference to the maniupulation of something involved rather than the preperation and general ability to be organized.
I dont mean to create confusion, but usually i think alot faster than i type, so i can leave things out.
I dont mean to create confusion, but usually i think alot faster than i type, so i can leave things out.
Sarus
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| Skill and ability to work with your group > skill and ability to work independently |
I think we all agree that "skill" however you define it is an important part of being succesful in PvP along with your build.