Mesmer Difficulty?

Well, I preorded at a good time. The day after the last beta event.
I've been reading over the classes, and Mesmer definitly sounds like the class I'd be most interested in playing. But everytime I see a guide or information, it's also spammed with "Warning: Advanced Class." Is this true? Would being a mesmer be over the top for a GW newbie or can I sludge it through?

I think it's the general idea that Mesmer is harder because it really only does indirect damage and requires fast timing. But it isn't really that much harder. It'll just take a slight bit more practice, but otherwise it's fine.

It also might be a bit better if you tried out something else first, then went onto Mesmer

--Ginko

The Mesmer works best when you know how to layer their skills. I wouldn't call them "difficult," but they are harder to play than other classes. I suggest getting a feel for the game with another character for three or so hours first.

hmmmmm... Mesmer was my first class that I ever played when I was a noob... I don't really understand how Mesmer is considered more advanced than others... When it is just as advanced as a warrior in terms of interruption and hexing and what not.. I mean the way the skills are.. You can either make a completely "advanced build" that requires you to do a lot of things and concentrate a lot... or just a simple mesmer build that requires you to just spam energy stealing and what not.. It all depends on what you mean advanced.. though, but since I am used to mesmer skills If you throw in a type of warrior melee build it would seem advanced to me... lol heh

I actually agree that Mesmer is an advanced class and that a warning is a very good idea.

The main reason why is that in order to get much out of Fast Casting, you have to know exactly what you are doing.

Even if you like the Mesmer skills, it can be argued that going Elementalist or even Necro main (for PvE) will keep your mana up much better and make you more useful; probably a lot more useful.

Fast Casting is really only worth the point (IMO) when playing in PvP and when you REALLY must get your counter off in time in critical situations.

Note that most counters are pretty fast in any case and the extra half a second or so that Fast Casting will buy you is usually more insurance to be sure you get it off than a necessity.

As for the one Elite skill that Fast Casting offers... I've yet to see a build that is really worth using that at all.

Mesmer looks cool and I'd like to play one based on looks, but except for either a Ranger Secondary for full interupt or a Warrior Secondary for IW (and in these cases it is not Fast Casting but getting access to the better energy regen and the needed skills that makes it worth it), I can't see playing one unless my goal was a heavy Domination PvP character where that 0.5 seconds could be barely worth it.

As for using it as a secondary class, they are simply excellent.

I think mesmer is the worst class ever, they suck.

But that's my opinion.

I've yet to experiance the elite skill in fast casting, but It could work well with a Mesmer/elementalist that involves really quick casting for those really long casting damage spells and then with inspiration energy management whilst having that elite skill to recharge those high damaging long casting spells... neh it could work

I tried to make a build like that, and I tried hard. The problem is that by the time you've wasted 12 points in Fast Casting just to make the Elite work for long enough to be useful, you've not only lost the chance to get 12 in Energy Storage with Aura of Restoration, but then you have to pay extra for every spell cast which wipes out the leeching advantage.

If I wanted to go with a lot of big Elementalists spells, I'd just go with a few Energy Glyph sorts of things 12 Storage, and still have plenty of room for huge spells. Enough to not have to worry much about recharge time.

The mesmer is considered an advanced class because you need to know a lot about how the game flows and exactly how other classes work to run one effectively. It's also hard to put together a coherent Mesmer skill bar that doesn't get cluttered with redundancy and nub skills that actually inhibit each other. You need to have a pretty good knowledge of about every spell in the game so you know which to spend an interrupt on, and which you're just going to miss. You don't want to waste a power block trying to hit Reversal of Fortune. You also generally need to be focussing on about 3 different targets at once, making sure you stay off the primary target, and are shutting down the right people at the right time. There's a lot more multi-tasking involved than with most other classes. Add to that the fact you'll have a harder time than most in PvE, you'll generally be better off taking another class while you get into the game.

I'm not sure if it's a matter of "difficulty" per se, but it's a lot harder to judge how effective you're being as a mesmer than it is with other classes. I mean, the warrior/ranger/elementalist gets that instant gratification of seeing their opponents health bar drop. The healer monk gets the same instant feedback of their helpfulness seeing their allies health bars rise. For the mesmer, it's not so easy. Even when you can tell that the effects you're hitting your opponent with are working, it's often hard to judge just how much of an impact this is having on the battle. If you shutdown an enemy caster, for example, you're preventing a bunch of damage to your team, but you don't see a rise in their HP or anything, you just don't see the enemy casting their nukes now that you've backfired them and robbed all their energy. It's just a lot easier for most other characters to tell immediately and exactly how effective their actions are, and more satisfying for a lot of people, too.

I played an Enchanter in EQ for years and years and really see myself as an enchanter-style player. That is, I see my job as making sure the enemies are working at less-than-optimal levels, and my side is working at more-than-standard levels. I love knowing that a team is a better team because of my help, and that the enemy is going to get messed up by me. I'm not as interested in actually damaging the enemy as in making it a lot easier for my friends to damage the enemy.

I suspect that mindset translates well to a GW Mesmer, but we'll see. I plan to give it a try doing PvE as well...we'll see how it works out.

Starflower

I found that a good way to get a feel for the Mesmer class is to take a secondary Mesmer (mine was primary Warrior, this works well). That lets you get a bit more familiar with the skills you need to use, and how the Mesmer works in general. Then, once you feel you've got the hang of it, start a primary Mesmer.

The way not to do it, I've found, is to start a PvP-only Mesmer primary, and dive straight in to the high-end PvP arenas. You'll get your ass kicked so unbelievably hard that you'll reconsider ever playing a Mesmer again. Work through the PvE game first, it will help you a lot.

It seems like Necro is more like EQ Enchanter in a lot of ways. The main job for EQ Enchanter was handing out crack and then, yes, some mezzing sorts of spells.

Necro has the crack in GW and most of the spells that make damage easier and such.

Mesmer is more about stopping them from doing things to start with along with draining energy which doesn't have much of an equivalent in EQ I think.

Like Pharalon said very well above, that is why it is an advanced class. To play Mesmer as main is to anticipate what is about to happen which means very quick analysis of the situation along with knowing the casting time on all of the spells you might face so as not to waste counters.

To play Mesmer as Secondary is a different story though. There are many spells like Conjure Phantasm, Energy Drain, Inspired Hex, Phantom Pain and such that didn't need Fast Casting and don't require preemptive strikes aka they don't require advanced knowledge of nearly every spell in the game to be used effectively. These are also very powerful in PvE whereas shutdown is more situational in PvE but very powerful in PvP.

The types of skills you use from the mesmer class can also make a difference in how much experience you need in the game to be effective. Casting hexes on opposing players doesn't generally take too much knowledge, and you can do fairly good with energy denial. The place where experience really comes into play is with interrupts and multiple-target shutdown. To be effective with interrupts, you need to know what skills to interrupt, and which not to try or not waste your interrupt on. If you're having to read the skill description(or often even the entire name of the skill) to know whether or not to interrupt a skill, you'll be too late to interrupt- you'll want to be able to recognize the skill as soon as it pops up and know whether or not it's a skill you want to interrupt, and if it's possible to interrupt.... if they're casting Reversal of Fortune, your interrupt will be wasted- similarly you won't want to power block a remove hex or an aura of restoration.

Switching between targets to keep 2-3 casters shut down is also not a task that you'll be any good at without quite a bit of experience in the game. Basically, the illusion line is fine if you're not experienced, and inspiration can be useful for every class(though stay away from the interrupts there unless you know what you're doing). Domination is really where you're going to need to have a good knowledge of the game to be worthwhile- though that's where a lot of the great skills are linked to.

If you're wanting to play a mesmer, feel free to try it out, though it could be more helpful to take a mesmer secondary and just use some mesmer skills with a different profession until you get more comfortable with the game.

I think it's a bit of both and that's why I agree with Freyas, but I have a different view on this.

Before I started playing, I spent a lot of time reading all the sites and fora discussing the different professions and all the different combinations. I also read (and learned) a lot from the builds on GWGuru. After reading, asking and reading more, I decided to play a Elementalist/Mesmer for obvious reasons. Elementalist for the energy and Mesmer for the skills.After rolling into my first BWE, I noticed how fairly easy it was to "play" a mesmer: do some DOT's while spamming Flare killed most of the monsters in PreSear. In PostSear, I learned more about the shutdown/blocking abilities and had a lot of fun (not always though) practising the different spells on the Charr-monks/casters. This leads me to what I think about Mesmers.

In my opinion, you have two types of Mesmer-players:
1. the former Caster / "I do damage too!" / Newb-Mesmer
I'm one of those. I cast some Conjure Phantasm in combination with Meteor Shower / Phantom Pain and some Energy Stealing. An occasional Backfire, Migraine or Chaos Storm will be used to see what it actually does. This way a Mesmer is doing damage, it will be noticeable, but you won't be a Killing Machine that can take out any object fast. It's a nice way of practising all the different spells you have as a Mesmer, while still feeling like a usefull Teammember.

2. the Real Mesmer / Advanced Mesmer
This type of player knows the skillbook by heart. He knows what to expect in a mission or pvp-situation and knows what spells to bring that will aid his team. He knows when to block, what skill to block and who to block. Not only block, but also drain victims of their energy and know when to cast a DOT-spell. This type can only be played with experience, like Freyas said. Also, most of the Type 1-Mesmers will turn out to be Type 2, if they play long enough. At least, I'll hope to be one after some months/weeks.

If it were so Guild Wars would be unbalanced, and Mesmer's power would be increased until it was as good as all other professions.

And anyways it's simply wrong. Some of the best guilds in the world use Mesmers, it may not fit your playstyle or taste but Mesmer is not the worst profession. They can screw up multiple casters and fast.

--Ginko

I think one of the points here is, however, that if you aren't playing the sort of Mesmer that either needs Fast Casting (e.g. a "real" Mesmer), or a special build that needs certain skills e.g. Warrior Secondary for IW, then it is a better build, generally, to go for Elementalist Primary and then use the Mesmer skills as needed.

This might sound harsh, but for PvE, my LAST pick would generally be a Mesmer Primary. Maybe it is just me, but the worst players I saw in Beta in PvE were Mesmer Primaries who were trying to be damage dealers. Conjure Phantasm is a very nice spell, but sacrificing my mana pool to cast it .5 seconds faster is just not a good build. AoE is really helpful in PvE which is also why Elementalist is a great Primary for Mesmer skills.

That is why it is good they put the warning on it in my own opinion: indeed, if you don't know what you are doing, it is best to not play it unless you don't mind being gimped for the look. (and I do LOVE the look!)

I've played in two BWE's as a Mesmer/Monk, and only got up to level 10, so I'm not what you'd call an "expert". But Me/Mo was the first character I ever played in GW, and the only character I really played in Post-Searing. So I can speak to it from a newbie perspective ... and I've also played exclusively PvE up to this point.

Basically what people have already said here is true from what I can tell. If you can get used to the fact that the benefits you bring to your team, and the detriment you can bring to the monsters/opponents, are not obvious, then you can enjoy being a Mesmer. The only thing "in-your-face" about them is the uniform ... they are most effective when they are subtle, keeping the balance of power on the side of their team in such a way that a truly good Mesmer would probably never be noticed.

I played a Paladin in EQ and I loved stunning, because I found that making it impossible to hit me was a better way to tank than just standing there and needing heals. The Mesmer brings some of that to GW ... you will be focusing on keeping the other side from doing what they do best. There is also some of the EQ Enchanter in the Mesmer, but not as much as I thought at first ... as someone else said, they don't have the crack or the group haste, nor is their primary function "mesmerizing" in any EQ-familiar sense.

Like I said, I'm not the expert on the class, but I took to the Mesmer pretty quickly and I think pretty well. It wasn't hard at all, once I got into the Post-Searing and really started to learn what I could do well and what I couldn't. I'm probably still a "type 1" right now, but I'm studying to be a "type 2" ... and when I reach that point I expect to be a valuable addition to teams for PvP and PvE.

With that said, I think PvE is a great training ground for the Mesmer, since most of the monsters (as far as I got at least) are pretty much 2- or 3-trick ponies and have limited repertoires to learn how to counter against ... as opposed to jumping into PvP and having to figure out how to counter 8 skills you've never seen before.

My 2 cents. My suggestion is, if you're interested in a Mesmer, give it a shot! I didn't see nearly enough of us in the BWE's ...

I'm going to agree with most here. I also am the "newb mesmer" as I played a Mes/Nec last BWE. I only had time to play for ~5hrs, and have only played GW in total for maybe ~17hrs. Anyway, I thought that my character was very easy to play, and really led me along in a very slow, instructive way to introduce me to some of the benefits and timing issues involved with the mesmer. Now, that could have been due to the pre-searing content and skill selection that the dev's made working out well for this class combination. Maybe once pre-sear is over (I was only in post sear for about 20 min) the learning needs to be much more purposeful. But the skills I learned in pre-sear stacked up very well. And yes, I did stack hexes at that point, but they all stack very well with soul barbs. I didn't feel like I was ever having trouble, besides playing the north of the wall mission at lvl 6 with an elementalist ranger, where we were having trouble with groups of 3 or more Charr. We could take 2, and I could take 1 by myself. Anyway, I think that you can play as mesmer, as long as you take your time, and get into some of the more difficult spots in pre-sear just to learn how to use the few skills you have effectively. Once you begin to dump new skills on your character without really learning how to use them you may have a problem, but I don't think it's necessarily something to stay away from. Just play as what you want and have fun.

Keep in mind, though, that if you do have a bad experience with one character type, come back to it at some point in the future when you know the game much better. You may just need to focus your character differently. And also remember that a design may work great in PvE and not at all in PvP, but you have refund points for a reason

See you out there,

Matt

The last BWE was the first time I played Guild Wars, and I didn't really know much about it. The character I played was a mesmer/monk, and I got to about level 11 and ended up at around Yak's bend.

For the most part, I was generally the major damge dealer throughout missions and quests. Mesmer has some really nice skills, and by setting up a combination of various hexes and spells, its pretty easy to plow through most of the monsters in the game (except the Charr though, those are hard to solo in packs of more than 3).

mesmers are great if you're not a dps nerd. they don't do high damage, they shut down stuff. It's not all that more advanced, in fact, I think the least advanced classest are the hardest to play well. but they are also the easiest to play when you're new. Like, Blackout: disable your skills for x time, disable the other guy for x time. If you aim it at some warrior/ranger attacking you, you're a frigging idiot. but if you aim it at the only monk that isn't being targeted, you've just made a great move. Mesmers are best if people are ignoring them; I find a good mesmer the most important target to focus on; though if his monks are on the ball, they'll have to go down first.

A lot has already been said, but I'd like to reiterate one point I haven't seen emphasized much.

Mesmer perfomance in PvE belies their usefulness in PVP.
PvE is full of lots of monsters that try and overwhelm you with sheer numbers and melee damage. Mesmers excell at shutting down 2-3 caster-type enemies. That doesn't mean you can't dedicate your mesmer to fighter hate, but that's not really where mesmers shine. Additionally, you'll often be overwhelmed in PVE, and mesmers are really better at shutting down a few targets, but struggle against larger groups.

So if you're set on playing a mesmer, I'd recommend playing one as a secondary in PVE so you can get an idea of their capacity, before you devote yourself to a PVE character that's designed to shine in PVP.

I went to old Ascalon at level 7 and didn't have too much trouble taking care of level 3-4 monsters in groups 3-4. Energy Feast does wonders for healing, and as monk secondary, the protection skills are very useful.

All I played for 2 BWE's was a mes/elem -- without realizing most think it's a tricky build -- no wonder I was struggling sometimes! I guess this means I'd find the whole game easier if I switch. But I've grown rather attached to my gal, even though, yes, it's tough when the beasties mob up. I'm really tempted to try her again to see how far I can take her.

I'm sure to learn a lot on the way, yes? And since I don't have the time -- or the math skills! -- that some of you have, well, I have to learn some way.

Who knows? By the time I get her to 20 she might actually want to PvP.

Dalia

oh, and, yes, she looks quite dashing!

It is time for me to throw in my two cents of knowledge about Mesmers. I have played a mes/ranger, before going with a mes/ele build. The Mesmer is an advance class, and maybe slightly difficult for new players. Those who are use to playing MMORPGs, and playing the more advance classes in those games, should not have a problem by playing a Mesmer right off the bat. For those who plan to play a Mesmer I suggest going to the skills section of the Guru, and read through all the skills of the Mesmer, Necromancer, Monk, and Elementalist. This way you can figure out what you want your secondary profession to be. A Mesmer has the ability to interrupt skills, redirect hexes, inflict DOTs, hex enemies, and most importantly steal or drain energy. You can take as a secondary profession the ranger, if you want the anti-caster build. I suggest that you take one of the three other professions mention above, as a secondary. Therefore, to answer the original question, yes the Mesmer can be a difficult class to play, which is why it carries a warning label. On a side note, in regards to the Mesmer being a poor PvE character I must disagree slightly. I have been known to be the last man standing, and the saving member of my group in a few missions. Mesmer can hold their own in PvE, if you use the correct skills.

I don't know if I was a newb in class building or not but I really enjoyed the mes/n build. When I played daoc after its initial release I fell in love with the mana speced mentalist. I was one of the first to 50 on my server and had led the server in rps once that was released for a long time. The aoe dot was just a great tool. I would fustrate stealthers but running into a group of mobs and aoe doting and revealing them then stunning and dotting again and again. Of course once realm abilities came out I got the good with the bad. I could crit my dot as well as have them purge it which really was the reason I left the game. Ok enough jabbering about the old. I finally talked myself into preordering this game right before last beta. I didn't know much about it but really got into it once beta started. I stumbled into along testing different builds not really knowing much about class skills. I finally settled into my old role again as a DOTer. I loved stacking drains and phantasms on players that our team's warriors were attacking. Sometimes they would be purged but a lot of the time it really dished out a lot of damage. I really loved attacking monks this way. You might see mes damage builds as newb builds but I just see them as another aspect of a great game.

The ideo that a Mesmer is hard to play is a load of specious bullshit that his been drilled into newcomers heads. Mesmers can be very easy to play as well as a class that may require experience. But hard? Not in the slightest.

A mesmer can take on several roles. The one that is normally considered as "hard" is caster interution, I would suppose. Simply because it takes good timing to send an energy spike right into the middle of their cast and punish them for trying to harm your team. It can also be a bit hard to create a good build because the role of Mesmer isn't just to run up and kill stuff. Your role as a mesmer is to cause damage and stop everything that tries to cast spells. Trust me, if you like this class, you will learn to play it quickly and effectively. You don't just jump into the game and try to climb a veticle learning curve! You go through the learning stages like we all do. A mesmer is no harder than a ranger or an elementalist or a monk.

Oftentimes being the last man standing in a PVE mission is a matter of being the first one to realize when it's time to run away. The smart thing for the rest of the team to do is scatter in some direction away from the rezzer, hopefully putting their bodies in different areas of the map so they can be rezzed one by one without the rezzer having to deal with the mobs that kill you.
I never said mesmers can't hold their own in PVE, it just happens that their strengths are not best suited to PVE. Especially given their early skill selection, which is a driving force behind each class' viability in PVE. However, if you can't make a character that's at least useful in PVE when you have every skill available to you, you're not trying hard enough. The only thing is, mesmers have a harder time than the rest. It's not a knock on the profession, that's how the skill trainers make it.

The question obviously isn't how hard it is to play a Mesmer at all, the question is how hard it is to play one WELL.

Obviously anyone can buy the skills and click buttons.

When selecting Mesmer for the Primary class, you then must accept having Fast Casting for your Primary Attribute.

Since you can cast every single Mesmer spell (except one) by picking Elementalist Primary and Mesmer Secondary, the question is why give up the large energy pool for Fast Casting?

Bottom line is, if you can't answer the question as to exactly why you need Fast Casting as Primary Attribute then chances are you'd be better off avoiding playing a Mesmer Primary.

If you can say exactly which spells you plan on using will benefit so much from being cast SLIGHTLY faster in exchange for having 1/2 the energy pool size, then your ready to play Mesmer Primary WELL.

That is how I see it at least.

Yes, there are some exceptions like IW; and yes, this is a slight oversimplification, but basically, when they say it is for advanced GW players (not advanced MMORPG players) I think they mean what they say.

Hmm. I see a big difference between playing a Prime Mesmer and a Good Mesmer. The Fact Casting is useless, when you look at the interrupt skills (1/4 sec is fast...) or the other lines of Mesmer.

That is my point: when you pick Mesmer as your primary class, you automatically are also choosing Fast Casting as your primary attribute.

Since Fast Casting does generally suck unless you know exactly what you are doing (and I do mean EXACTLY), that is a big part of why a player who is new to GW should not pick Mesmer as primary.

With all the other classes, you get a very useful primary attribute (debatable about Soul Reaping for PvP use, but true as far as PvE for sure) which is not true of Mesmer.

You also get Mesmer armor, and runes for your mesmer lines. So it can help with your attributes.

Matt

I whole heartedly agree with Weezer_Blue. I am more convinced it is important to learn how to play the character you build than it is to play a certain build. To a certain degree every profession needs some "learning" to play correctly. I'll say it again. Learn how to play the character you are building, and how it fits into the group you are with. Learn its weaknesses and strengths. Tweak it as you go. In the end you'll enjoy the character.

One of the more enjoyable things I experienced as a mesmer is dueling another mesmer. Unlike shutting down a monk, shutting down another mesmer is a whole lot harder since they have the same disruptive tools as you

Like what others have said, it is somewhat hard to measure a mesmer's contribution in a group. Usually the way to tell whether you need a mesmer in your group is when either your team got hit by too many enemy spells or your team cannot seem to outdamage the enemy healing.

I have seen a lot of people try to use a mesmer as anti-melee. My advise to this is: stick with the casters. You are not using your mesmer to the fullest potential if you are trying to shutdown warriors.

Very good points, especially the last one. I've found with my Mes/Rang that at the lower levels, and against fewer enemies, the mesmer can hold his/her own quite nicely, against all opponent professions. But it is at the higher levels and against larger groups of opponents, that the mesmer needs to focus on the opposing spell casters in order to be the most help to the group you're with. This is where the recognition of the enemy caster's spell, knowing how to effectively deal with that, and the TIMING to make it happen, can make the difference between a "flop in the oven" or the "piece de resistance!" Fast Cast can make a difference here. It's challenging, and fraught with risks, but it's a blast when it works. The mesmer can often be the one who "casts the first stone," whether he/she is the team leader or not and depending on the class makeup of the team. But all this does take practice, and a lot of it. We shouldn't let fear of failure keep us from experiencing what can be a very fun & interesting challenge.

This has been a good thread. Lots of thoughtful comments & queries. I hope it keeps going.

The reason I compared a GW Mesmer to an EQ Enchanter is not because they actually have the same spell lines (though my Enchanter pride rankles terribly at the implication they were only good for crack and haste ), but because the Mesmer seems to have a similar play style.

That is, as an Enchanter, if a bunch of mobs were pulled down on the party, I had to stand back and very, very quickly figure out what I had to do to keep the party alive. It involved keeping a very "big-picture" view of the whole situation and adjusting my technique dramatically depending on what we had (how many mobs? How many are casters? Any bosses? Does the paladin have aggro locked yet?)

My friend the paladin would pick one mob and focus on it. The healer would focus on peoples' health bars. But support staff like Enchanters and Shaman had to always be really flexible and adaptive. That looks like a Mesmer to me (to be fair, it looks like all classes in GW have to be more flexible too, which is part of the reason I'm so jazzed about it).

In PvE (I've never liked PvP though I'm hoping to give it a try in GW), I'll be in a steady duo with my husband, and I think a primary Mesmer looks like it has a good chance of supplementing a regular partner's strengths well.

And, well, part of it is that it'll just break my heart not to be able to have the primary Mesmer's looks. Seeing screenshots of the Mesmer was the moment I knew I was going to try Guild Wars. If I discover I'm not competant enough to play one well, I'll just cry...

Starflower
(last...week....going....so.....slowly....)

Ironically enough, Starflower, I feel very similarly to you. The first BWE I played a Mesmer and loved the look so much that I nearly died!

Then, as I understood the game better, I got depressed. I then spent hours trying to find some way to make a Mesmer primary caster good in PvE. When I failed I--like you--am still tempted to play it just for looks.

My plan is to just play with friends. Then, I can do whatever I want

The great thing about friends is that they accept me for who I am, and if I want to play a gimped PvE character then they'll be glad to back me up

I pray that they put some more spells into an expansion that make Fast Casting a bit better for PvE... then my worries will be over.