I sabotaged a mission

Omg! omg! omg! I spelled a word incorrectly! The world is doomed!

Anyway... vengeance can indeed be just. Vengeance is nothing more than a persons or persons acting without official sanction, most likely working outside the law, to inflict retribution upon another for a wrong commited. Why it is illegal is not because it is morally wrong but because ppl without the rule of law are prone to make hasty judgements & inflict retribution upon a innocent party.

If I came home to find my family murdered & saw the killer fleeing out the back door I would chase him down & kill him him. Vengeance? You bet! Just? That too!

Now if I came home & found my family murdered & saw the killer run out my back door & thru my neighbors house & then I kill my neighbor thinking he was the killer when he in fact was not that would be vengeance as well but it would not be just.

So besides the "leader", he's teaming with someone else who was "only in it for the bonus" and a guild mate?

Usually when you're in a mission /w a guildmate and someone else who wants to do the bonus, it's not hard to convince the other two people who to follow. You can do the bonus with 2-3 people, and if the leader wanted to rush off and get killed... well, dumb shits do that.

My guess is that he didn't clearly explain his problems with the current leaderhip to the other two team members. From my reading of the story, he was passive when it mattered, and then aggressive when it is too late.

Even remotely equating this with a death scenario is a red herring; alluding to this extreme is invalid logical argumentation.

Indeed. I was being unnecessarily argumentative, thanks for correcting me. That said, I find the overall "serves them right" attitude of many posters on this thread quite distrubing.

...

What this individual did is at the very least grounds for dismissal at a good guild; it should be grounds for banning one's account. If you are not going to play in a cooperative manner, disconnect or do your team the favor of dying by yourself... but dragging monsters back into a group for vengeance is simply not acceptable.

Fair enough, and the punishment for ruining DrSLUGFly's game by running off and doing the mission...

Should that be instant dismissal as well?

The way I see it the OP ruined the other guy's game in the same way the other guy ruined the OP's, ie he made sure he couldn't achieve what he set out to do.

You said you wanted the mission and the bonus, yet you decide to be an ass and ruin other peoples chance at beating the mission. I can't count the number of times I've been in a mission with the "mission and bonus" criteria, either through mutual decision/lack of time/droppers or other reasons we just did the mission. While communication would have been better, surely you could have just done the mission and gone back to do the bonus with another group? There is no excuse for this behaviour I am glad I am not on your server.

Wow, some people on this thread must truely be religious showing this "an eye for an eye" attitude.

You ruin my bonus, so I ruin your mission. What a crappy concept!
Like in kindergarden: you destroyed my sandcastle, now I destroy yours. This is my truck, no it's mine.

As the OP posted he wanted both mission and bonus, and when he found out that he could only have one, he acted childish by ruining it all, not only for himself, but also for others.

I agree, that lack of comunication in missions and quests it truely anoying.
When those things happen I usually give an ultimatum, telling people, that if they don't talk to me, I will log out.
At least they have a remote chance to finish the mission, but going to ruin it for them? No way.

I think what I'm most astounded by is the fact that this thread, like a dying fish, is still flopping and thrashing about on the dock.

For the love of the Almighty someone please finish it off!

Call it whatever you want: justice, grief (makes no sense, they grief ME by not contributing to a hard mission by standing around holding their genitals and IGNORING my pleas for assistance), bad gamesmanship, or outright hostility, the only true solution to this problem without having to involve ANET, and ergo waste their dev time, is take NPC robots instead.

I cannot fathom why so many people STILL cannot get that through ther brain. I have played all of the game, all the way up to where I am now, with npc robots. If I can do it, why can't you?

It is not about ego's, or who is doing what, it is about common sense and preventative maintenance. If you do not want to deal with asshats and smartasses and people who will blatantly stand still and ignore you, grab an NPC and leave those fools standing in town begging for the attention they obviously crave.

This whole thing is just avoidable as hell and it has become a crime against reason to even debate such a thing

Two things that the OP could have done to avoid this situation we are in now:

1)Don't wreak vengeance on people who don't know any better. Just leave.

2)Don't f'ing post about it afterwards. What did you expect?

Slugfly is a good guy and a great contributor to this site. Let's just all agree that he was having a lousy day and made a bad choice. Now...maybe we can move on.

So many people living in glass houses willing to cast stones. None of us are perfect. I have to give drSLUGFly credit for being honest.

Two wrongs don't make a right...but three lefts will.

The worst part of this is if more people acted like the OP there would be less griefers and less support for it instead of the current attitude of passive encouragement to griefing.

Leaving or doing nothing only encourages the griefer to continue being selfish and ignore the wishes of other players, this way they've learned a lesson. If you ruin other peoples game they ruin yours.

And at the end of the day if you refuse to punish these people and want play the martyr thats fine just don't expect everyone else to adopt your passive endorsement of selfishly and intentionally griefing other players.

Lathal, it appears that what you are suggesting is that if you are somehow wronged in any way, what you should do is ruin the game for everyone else - guilty or not... you were wronged, you are within your rights to screw everyone else over too, right?

What do you think is going to please a griefer more: somebody trying to get their own back and dragging out the game even more, or everyone leaving him to get on with it on his own? I think I can pretty much guarantee it's the former. Not only that, but intentionally griefing yourself, you're actually contributing to the problem.

Anyway, it's something of a moot point, since the person the OP was referring to WASN'T griefing, he just wasn't paying attention or didn't know any better.

well the ignore list is there for you to use...i had to delete a couple of inactive friends to add more morons to my ignore list lately

That's the thing. They don't learn a lesson. They just get griefed back, get angry, and according to the logic displayed throughout this thread, are justified to grief back again. It doesn't solve anything, it just promotes griefing even further. "If you ruin other peoples game they ruin yours." - your words, but I agree entirely - it works both ways.

I'm hesitant to use such a harsh example, but it does show the situation very well. Consider Palestinian suicide bombing vs. Israeli retaliatory bombings. Regardless of who started it, each side loses innocent civilians, children, which for them is justification to retaliate. Every time they strike the other side again, the solution to the conflict is further away. Neither side learns a 'lesson', nothing is solved, and people suffer.

Thats why GW is like real life. Only bother about other people if you cant avoid it or have enough power to controll them.

I personally dont care if someone ruins my mission. Well i am angry, but not at this person, but because i was stupid enough to invite a moron. Its my fault for not brainwashing him and making him an obediant slave, or just ignoring him.

I was doing the borlis pass mission (dont ask, thought that you cant hench without /mo rezzing, oh was i wrong), and joined a team. The leader invited a level 19 warrior and someone else joined, both where looking for bonus only before they joined us. Both of course agreed to do the mission. Who is to blame? Me. I should have left the team the moment they joined. Them asking every 3mins of the mission where the bonus is was no longer needed as clues.

Since most MMO companies have this carebear attitude of "NO griefing, and WE define griefing" its better to ignore other players unless you can trust them.

While some in this community want to grief you by banning your account, i condone it... not that anyone cares though.
But next time, dont trust strangers at all... especially with things like bonus, skill caps, or trades etc.

/thread

Yeah, he's honest enough to brag about how he sabotaged a mission and said "it's cool" afterward.

So true So true....

No. I'm not making absolute generalised statements but in this case what drSLUGfly did was acceptable and reasonable IMO. But I do think if one person can and does screw you and noone stands up or just accepts it you are well within your right to be as selfish towards them as they are towards you. More importantly as A.net does not have any ingame moderators and does nothing except in the very worst cases it's a matter of personal conscience so if you feel justified in retaliating do it.

It depends on the type of griefer and the circumstances. In this case leaving at the end would have allowed him to get away with it with no personal loss. This way he was punished for what he did. Also is it really a problem that the selfish and the cowardly have to spend an extra 30mins doing the mission again? If they wanted to do only the mission they just have to make sure they take no-one who specifically states they want to do the bonus. They made their choices and suffered the consequences of them. Most sensible moral and ethical systems state that if you commit an immoral/unethical act you have put yourself in a position where other people do not need to be as moral/ethical in dealing with you.


Strip this situation of it's MMORPG (not that GW is one but many players seem to have serious issues with this) trappings and it becomes apparent that what the OP did was perhaps not the turn-the-other-cheek method but was a morally acceptable act while the purely selfish act of the person the OP was complaining about was not, regardless of inane definitions of griefing.


Well first this assumes that what is being done to them is griefing, I would consider it just punishment personally. And be careful when applying "logic" to moral/ethical systems especially other peoples. If the person the OP was complaining about went on to grief someone else or even the OP they would not be justified by "the logic in this thread" as they were the one to choose griefing for selfish gains. Of course the quote works both ways thats the point, the moral of the story being if you don't want griefed then don't initiate griefing and if you get griefed either accept it or punish them depending on your own moral code. The problem is any genralised moral code falls apart in some situation or circumstance but in this specific case the OP was well within his rights moral and otherwise.

Griefing is taking action to cause other people grief, as a goal in of itself. That's clearly what this is.

Even if everyone agreed that someone "deserved it", that still doesn't make it right.

But now we're getting into ethics and morality, and obviously that's not the point here.

Are you kidding? LOL! That's what every poster in this thread has been getting into.

Have we beaten this dead horse enough YET?

You say that...but you are still here. Looks like you enjoy the thrashing of deceased equine as much as anyone.

Actually, Sanji, it is my JOB here to read through all this nonsense and make sure it doesn't get out of hand or turn into a flame war. Gee and I make such big bucks doing it too. /sarcasm

Pah, this post will of course get deleted too, but I agree with Silmor, and perhaps he can see it before it gets deleted: DrSLUGfly is clearly a griefer, the lowest of scum, and I don' care that he's a good forum participant. I can't believe he posted about it like it was something to be proud of. Temerity? It was asshattery.

I find it disturbing that so many people, including a moderator, heck, even _Talesin_ who's usually level-headed, support such an obvious act of wanton griefing.

"They had it coming" because they failed to communicate what they were doing? Yeah, there's a model for cooperation across ages, cultures and languages we will certainly want to adopt.
Pffff.

Good job this type of thing happens way too much in missions
once we did the first part of the bonus were standing outside the part to finish the bonus I tell the others the bonus this way etc
So the one who wanted to race through the mission and not do the bonus started drawing all over the mini map so others couldnt see directions
They followed him so I left
Did say it was for bonus
Dont put up with it and dont let people like this win just leave the others who are awake will see and know what is going on
and just make another team

I can agree with the OP's frustration. I'm sure it was not the best response, but I feel the pain....

"I wish this thread would die"/"Beating a Dead Horse" posts have nothing to do with you performing your duties as a Mod and no matter how you look at it, is ironic and counterproductive.

That makes about as much sense as zero tolerance in our schools.

OK let's try this one more time: I don't support what he did. I understand what he did. Is that simple enough? LOL! It's sort of like understanding why a woman, whose been beaten by her husband for years, suddenly kills him. I don't SUPPORT the killing but I sure understand it.

Slug had a bad day. Fine. Maybe he had some other issues going on that affected his judgement. But of course some of you sanctimonious souls never have bad days and do dumb stuff, right?

*applies a few more lashes to the now skinless carcass that was a horse*

providing these morons with replies to posts regarding your duties with this website shouldn't be something you comply with....you have an authoritative presence here because you were asked to....it's not up to them whether or not you are doing your job properly...nor is it their right to be catered to like children by providing them with reasons.....

btw: you do a fine job moderating the forums.

I've been reading this thread and find it kind of funny that people are still moaning and groaning about this sort of thing in game.

All i can say is, if there are so many of you that have never done a thing wrong in game, put your hands up now, otherwise everyone is being a hypocrite.

As for the part I have quoted above in BOLD, depending on how you read it, it almost sounds like the body part that everyone has.

In short, yes, for that last line, I was totally kidding.

Sorry. My humour is deadpan in real life, too.

So, the moderator fuels the flame-feast. Brilliant.

For the record, I've never been spiteful in the manner this fella outlined. He deliberately (and without any serious regret) sabotaged a mission in a pure act of spite/vengeance. Worse, he bragged about it and some people on this list seem to condone his action. I for one don't happen to identify at all with this fella's behavior. If someone in the guild I'm a member ever acted this way, either he goes or I go. Not only am I not sanctimonious, I put my actions where my mouth is. I stand by my position; his account should be banned. If I ever did such a thing, then my account should be banned. There should be zero tolerance for griefing.

Given this as the situation. (Note this hasn't actually happened but could, and is along similar lines as the OP's position)

I join a group going out to do a mission. The group was advertised as Mission AND Bonus. I need both the mission and the bonus, so this is all good. However being the cautious person I am, I ask everyone in team chat if this group is for Mission AND Bonus. They all one by one agree, including the group leader. We get into the mission. We're doing the mission. We get to the bonus stage, but it seems the leader is not going the proper way, or even worse (in the example of the Surmia mission) attacks the Charr and therefore throw the bonus. Even if throughout that whole time I'm saying "no wait, don't do it! We need them alive for the Bonus." Alright, now yes... I could just drop. Yes, I could just go on and finish the bonus later. In both these circumstances I have been robbed of Time. If I just drop, I have to re do it all... just I not nessecarily them. If I go on and help finish the mission, not only am I supporting those that betrayed my trust but I still lost Time as I have to come back specifically to do the Bonus.

This simply does not fly. They all knew it was for the Bonus as well. If the others say nothing, than their inaction speaks for itself and they are no longer 'innocent' bystanders in this situation. Should this person (the leader) or for that matter the rest of the group get away without any form or reprimand? Hella no!! So yes, I would think of / find some way to make them suffer a loss as compensation for my loss. In that situation I would deserve compensation, give a valid argument as to how my Time isn't worth something? Go ahead and try.

An Eye for an Eye.
Two wrongs don't make a right.
All is fair in Love and War.

Whatever. There is a philosophy to go along with just about any way of looking at a situation in this world. But in the end there is no all powerful "One God" way of looking at things that is completely 100% right in the eyes of everyone. And since there is no one Right, and I would believe my actions / response to be right then there would be no grounds to take extreme action such as banning ones account based on this. That would be called Discrimination against what I believe to be fair and just. I think this is about as clear as I can make it... but I'm sure there is someone out there that belives their form of what is Right should take precedence and to that I'll just send a big LoL.

If thats the attitude to take then the leader of the mission should be banned too, plain and simple. Again I ask why is the mission leaders time more important than the OP? You forget he lost time. Curently there is no consolation/retribution that the game can provide when these things occur. Also it does not forbid his actions that he took. Untill such balances are put into the system these things can and will occur despite whether or not our ethical code allows us to personally do the same. He excercised a freedom that is granted in the game for good or ill.

Furthermore you have the freedom to agree or not agree that the action was just / unjust, grief /not grief. Now the question is as to whether or not we want to give up the freedom of said actions in game and have anet but in a check and balance system forcing a static ethical code of conduct or do you want to maintain your own ethical freedom?

Granted the time we use to play is our spare time but to me that time is more precious than any other.

I just want an option to get as far away from griefers as possible. I suggest that Dispute Resolution via Instance Splitting or something similar might be the best option. Let someone who wants to grief do it by their lonesome. That said, if they don't want to give me a way to get away from griefers then they should ban griefing.

Personally I think vote kicking in missions should be an option.

Magority wants to kick that goober dingle berry? HECK YEA GO FOR IT!

I am quite glad the OP did what they did, because when you get to the Sand Pit (Elonas/ Thirsty River ETC) you get some absolute tools, heck, lets just class that area just a whole tool shed or hardware store.

I believe that it can be viewed as wrong, but cripes, that leader should have learnt a valuable lesson. If someone or more than one person has more than one objective in the team, then the leader and everyone should help out and complete those objectives.

See, now the next time that dumb a$$ leader gets into a group and someone says, “Hey me an a buddy want to do ‘said bonus’”, The leader will think about this and think back to when he had his ass handed to him and may, just may, think that he shouldn’t be a tool and screw the game over like last time where he was screwed over.

You get these leaders everywhere, they are gun ho fools who run ahead or have eyes that cant read “Hey stop we want to go here for bonus”. I know exactly how the OP feels and felt at the time and personally, dropping from the team doesn’t teach a lesson, just makes the leader think you are the wanker for dropping out and being childish.

How do I know dropping out doesn’t teach a lesson? Easy, get a friend and yourself or get two PCs and another copy of the game, get both characters, your and a friend in the same group. When you both realize the leader “Capt’n Toolshed” is going in the wrong way, drop out one character out of disgust. The “Capt’n Toolshed” will bag the living $hit out of you for being a newb/n00b and quitting like a child.

What the OP did I feel justifies it and can teach others lessons.

Other than that, some people in here will argue anything over what is right and wrong and this is just a game. So please, if you have posted your opinion more than once in this thread, get a _ _ _ _ _ _ _ life.

In my very humble opinion, I believe everyone in that situation behaved abominably.

Except maybe for the other two people in the group. We don't hear much about them. Perhaps they were just happy enough to be tagging along with someone who knows what to do, that they decided to keep their mouths shut. You yourself (OP) said you started off trusting the leader - maybe the others never lost that trust? I don't think they were cowards, just brand-new to the game probably, and unsure what to do. This is my first on-line game, and I remember feeling uncertain at times, what was the proper thing to do.

The "leader" - was he leader just because he was at the top of the party list, or was he leader because everyone appointed him so? - was a huge huge jerk for not at least trying for the bonus. Extremely bad form on his part, and the in-game kind of unforgivable.

Of course I understand the frustration which led to your actions, Slug. We have all been in that group.

I guess I'm different, but I never "feel good" about leaving a group, for whatever the reason, and I have never intentionally ruined anything for anyone else.

To put it plainly, you should have left. You saw the warning signs. You know what the mission is about, it's not a hard one, they would have finished without you.

Meanwhile, I guarantee you 110% that that leader of the mission, to this day, has not learned any lesson you think you have taught him. He will continue to believe he always gets bad groups who don't listen, he will never ever ever blame himself - but if he does, it will not be because he watched you aggro the world, get everyone killed, and commit suicide.

I agree, I usually enjoy reading what you write, Slug.

I'm of course only a "sanctimonious soul", definitely not a "good guy and a great contributor to this site" like drSLUGfly, but for what little it's worth I think people might be excused for thinking that statements like...
"Just revenge for a moron. I don't have that sort of temerity."
"Doc's not a griefer. Think of it as an object lesson. Maybe the guy will better determine his group's objectives before setting out on his -own- agenda next time." and agreeing that one should not simply "accept the slap in the face" and leave when someone in a team does something one do not like
...indicate support of drSLUGflys actions, so perhaps we should all go easy on the sanctimony.

Kudos to Bloodstone, IxChel, Sanji, Silmor and all other voices of reason here.
Griefing is bad. What drSLUGfly did was a textbook case of griefing.

And it's not pretty when posts which insult Silmor (calling him an "hypocrite" and "arrogant dick" for not accepting griefing and advocating leaving teams instead of griefing them) don't get deleted. (Speaking of which... Talesin: I'm officially disappointed in you. You're better than that.)

I move to have this thread locked, or preferrably deleted. It is of negative value to the community.