I'm pretty new to the game, and wasn't able to try anything out during the beta weekends, so please bear with me here. First up, I have pretty much decided to go N/W; this thread isn't designed to discuss the efficiency/fun of the N/W, but specific builds.
Anyway, the two builds that I am currently looking at are:
12 Blood Magic/12 Sword/3 Soul Reaping
Life Transfer
Life Siphon
Vampiric Gaze
Demonic Flesh
Awaken the Blood
Hamstring
Final Thrust
Sever Artery
OR
11 Blood Magic/10 Sword/ 10 Curses/ 4 Soul Reaping
Life Transfer
Life Siphon
Vampiric Gaze
Barbs
Insidious Parasite
Hamstring
Final Thrust
Sever Artery
Thoughts? Criticism/help would be much appreciated. Thanks
Nec/War for PvP
FightingHamster
Loviatar
will the thoughts of an expert do?
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...6335#post36335
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...6335#post36335
FightingHamster
Not really, as it doesn't really apply/respond to my builds. The advice he gives, though great in its own right, also doesn't really apply to me as he gives advice about a PvE necro, which I will not be, and blasts PvP N/W, which I am already decided on regardless of how good they truly are. Heh, thanks though!
Loviatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by FightingHamster
Not really, as it doesn't really apply/respond to my builds. The advice he gives, though great in its own right, also doesn't really apply to me as he gives advice about a PvE necro, which I will not be, and blasts PvP N/W, which I am already decided on regardless of how good they truly are. Heh, thanks though!
since he has the long term hands on experience the rest of us dont i thought his advice might carry some weight
also the comments from many others who PVP confirm what he says as regards to a pvp necro primary
try it have fun and dont say i did not warn you
also the comments from many others who PVP confirm what he says as regards to a pvp necro primary
try it have fun and dont say i did not warn you
tektonik
Well at least you admit to playing a crappy combo.
JYX
I'm just wondering...are you already in a Guild?
do you play to play that build in Arena or in GvG?
...because in all honesty...I think you're going to have trouble finding a good guild with a pvp blood necro...the demand for them isn't exactly great
do you play to play that build in Arena or in GvG?
...because in all honesty...I think you're going to have trouble finding a good guild with a pvp blood necro...the demand for them isn't exactly great
Scaphism
If you plan on using your sword you plan on fighting from melee range, and your weak armor is a serious liability.
You need to seriously consider tactics for a stance and the extra armor a shield will give you. Watch Yourself is a terrific skill that isn't getting the attention it deserves yet either.
As for your builds:
Drop awaken the blood on your first build. It only affects Life Siphon and Life Transfer, and the only thing it affects is the duration. Both are hexes and they will likely be removed if they are really bothering your target. Increasing the duration doesn't really help you any, and Awaken the Blood is taking up valuable space.
On your second build:
Life Siphon only gets it's third pip at 12 blood magic. Essentially, it's useless at 11 blood, so make sure you get your blood magic to at least 12.
Finally, if you're playing a necromancer and you're not using Rend Enchantments, you've either suffered major head trauma recently or you're about to in the near future. It's just that important.
You need to seriously consider tactics for a stance and the extra armor a shield will give you. Watch Yourself is a terrific skill that isn't getting the attention it deserves yet either.
As for your builds:
Drop awaken the blood on your first build. It only affects Life Siphon and Life Transfer, and the only thing it affects is the duration. Both are hexes and they will likely be removed if they are really bothering your target. Increasing the duration doesn't really help you any, and Awaken the Blood is taking up valuable space.
On your second build:
Life Siphon only gets it's third pip at 12 blood magic. Essentially, it's useless at 11 blood, so make sure you get your blood magic to at least 12.
Finally, if you're playing a necromancer and you're not using Rend Enchantments, you've either suffered major head trauma recently or you're about to in the near future. It's just that important.
Ander Deathblade
I think you just need to realize that while Ensign and Nash and others know much about pvp compared to most of you, they are far from omniscient and necromancers are not necessarily useless in pvp. I would think KOR would not play with a Necro in their teams if they didnt think they had their place. They wouldn't be using what is dubbed here an absolutely horrible class, with soul barbs, dubbed here as absolutely terrible skill, if they thought it did not have its use. Not that they know everything. It's just a whole bunch of evolution and improvement coming, that none of us know anything of at the moment.
So make your builds to do what you like best. A shitty build can be better than a better build, as long as you enjoy it and play it well. As long as you don't mistake your energy levels for infinite, make your build and improve where you need to. Taking advice from these guys is good, but they didn't invent GW. At the moment, the best strategy is delegating specific tasks to specific chars, as its easier to produce and easier to organize. As groups get better, this will change, and their opinions will also change.
keep that in mind. nothing is set in stone.
So make your builds to do what you like best. A shitty build can be better than a better build, as long as you enjoy it and play it well. As long as you don't mistake your energy levels for infinite, make your build and improve where you need to. Taking advice from these guys is good, but they didn't invent GW. At the moment, the best strategy is delegating specific tasks to specific chars, as its easier to produce and easier to organize. As groups get better, this will change, and their opinions will also change.
keep that in mind. nothing is set in stone.
FireMarshal
There is nothing wrong with taking Necro primary. As long as he has fun with it. I personally, and a couple of my guildmates have played a n/w and it is very fun, just make good use of skills from Tactics.
Diamondspider
Quote:
Originally Posted by FireMarshal
There is nothing wrong with taking Necro primary. As long as he has fun with it. I personally, and a couple of my guildmates have played a n/w and it is very fun, just make good use of skills from Tactics.
If you are interested in PvP and choose a combo that will have armor problems for no reason other than... the combo and it thusly gimped, I'm not sure how fun that will be.
Still better to be safe than sorry when it comes to having to spend 25 hours redoing your character due to a mistake.
This combo doesn't seem super weak to me, personally, but then I'm not planning on winning the top ladder spot
Still better to be safe than sorry when it comes to having to spend 25 hours redoing your character due to a mistake.
This combo doesn't seem super weak to me, personally, but then I'm not planning on winning the top ladder spot
FireMarshal
Quote:
The build is not wholly gimped in that as a n/w you have much larger energy pool to work off of. I found that a n/w is one of the most versatile classes in the game. You can slap on the defense and get into the fray, you can harass casters, you can buff up your mates, strip enchantments, plus more stuff.
I think it just may be that I dont take the game as seriously as some of you do, just as long as I am having fun.
-FM
Asher
Exactly and like I posted in another thread started by Blitzkrieg, I played a pure Necro (no secondary), with Blood,Curses and Death maxed, Iwent down twice and that build and our team held HoH thru 4 battles.
So don't knock it unless you've actually played it for more than five minutes.
Asher Out
So don't knock it unless you've actually played it for more than five minutes.
Asher Out
walder
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asher
Exactly and like I posted in another thread started by Blitzkrieg, I played a pure Necro (no secondary), with Blood,Curses and Death maxed, Iwent down twice and that build and our team held HoH thru 4 battles.
So don't knock it unless you've actually played it for more than five minutes.
Asher Out Roger, Roger...
Whether you die or not doesn't really say anything about you or your character. The question is, who where you playing against? Just because you know how to avoid the action and stand in the back doesn't mean your good. And as far as I know, I never needed Blood, Curses, and Death "maxed" to be an effective debuffer. Maybe Mes/Nec with a few points in Curses for Enfeeble, Sof, and Rend if you want to extend it to that.
Walder Out...
So don't knock it unless you've actually played it for more than five minutes.
Asher Out Roger, Roger...
Whether you die or not doesn't really say anything about you or your character. The question is, who where you playing against? Just because you know how to avoid the action and stand in the back doesn't mean your good. And as far as I know, I never needed Blood, Curses, and Death "maxed" to be an effective debuffer. Maybe Mes/Nec with a few points in Curses for Enfeeble, Sof, and Rend if you want to extend it to that.
Walder Out...
Scaphism
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ander Deathblade
I think you just need to realize that while Ensign and Nash and others know much about pvp compared to most of you, they are far from omniscient and necromancers are not necessarily useless in pvp. I would think KOR would not play with a Necro in their teams if they didnt think they had their place.
None of us claim to be omniscient, but you're pulling a magic trick on us, asking us to watch one hand while the other is doing something behind your back.
Ensign, Nash, "and others" are here giving their advice to everyone on their boards. We do our homework and run our numbers through scenarios.
It's all well and good to admire KOR from afar, but they are not here sharing their builds with us. From what I have heard, KOR was successful running a 4 Warrior 4 Monk build, and when that got countered, they added one mesmer. I don't see a necro anywhere in there. Furthermore, their success is based in good part on great coordination and teamwork.
Just because a good team has some success with a build does not therefore mean the build is strong.
Let's try and respect the resources we have here, instead of worshipping idols from afar.
That said, necromancers are not awful, and the problems have been discussed ad nauseum here.
The core of the necromancer's problem is that anything a primary necro can do, a secondary necro can do just as well. Their primary attribute is bad, and there's little reason to want a maxed out necro attribute, so their runes are mostly useless as well.
It's not that all necro skills are trash- it's just that there's no convincing reason to put them on a necro primary.
And frankly, I'm surprised that "Ensign, Nash, and others" continue to give solid advice in the face of stuch unrelenting obstinacy. If you stopped to analyze what a nercromancer has to offer on the highest competetive level, and realize that is the only thing high level build making is concerned with, then you'd be quick to dismiss primary necromancers as well.
Go out and enjoy your necromancer builds. The game is built for fun. Come back and ask for a serious critique of your builds when you are ready handle being told that they are not perfect and need to be improved.
Ensign, Nash, "and others" are here giving their advice to everyone on their boards. We do our homework and run our numbers through scenarios.
It's all well and good to admire KOR from afar, but they are not here sharing their builds with us. From what I have heard, KOR was successful running a 4 Warrior 4 Monk build, and when that got countered, they added one mesmer. I don't see a necro anywhere in there. Furthermore, their success is based in good part on great coordination and teamwork.
Just because a good team has some success with a build does not therefore mean the build is strong.
Let's try and respect the resources we have here, instead of worshipping idols from afar.
That said, necromancers are not awful, and the problems have been discussed ad nauseum here.
The core of the necromancer's problem is that anything a primary necro can do, a secondary necro can do just as well. Their primary attribute is bad, and there's little reason to want a maxed out necro attribute, so their runes are mostly useless as well.
It's not that all necro skills are trash- it's just that there's no convincing reason to put them on a necro primary.
And frankly, I'm surprised that "Ensign, Nash, and others" continue to give solid advice in the face of stuch unrelenting obstinacy. If you stopped to analyze what a nercromancer has to offer on the highest competetive level, and realize that is the only thing high level build making is concerned with, then you'd be quick to dismiss primary necromancers as well.
Go out and enjoy your necromancer builds. The game is built for fun. Come back and ask for a serious critique of your builds when you are ready handle being told that they are not perfect and need to be improved.
Jackell
Quote:
Originally Posted by FightingHamster
tektonik
Because they do suck?
SR? Worthless there goes half your reason to play N/W over W/n in PvP. The other half is mana pool and regen but any warrior skills you pick now will lack in damage from armor penetration. Now you are going to rely on a caster armor doing subpar melee damage who is relying on spells(Curses or Blood) to try to make up that damage with 80% of the time being 2sec or greater casts.... Do you see the issues that are going to occur once you step out of the playground of Tombs?
For those of you trying to defend these DoTs.....For one you are not going to be targeted much so half the efficiency of LT and LS are gone. Secondly in GvG 70% of all kills are the result of quick spike damage to a target so DoTs lose value because they need time to work so you never really use them when you kill someone.
At the very least if you are dead set on necro bring Rend Enchantments and spec 3-4 in curses. Then you can at least have a good value to your team and not be dead weight.
SR? Worthless there goes half your reason to play N/W over W/n in PvP. The other half is mana pool and regen but any warrior skills you pick now will lack in damage from armor penetration. Now you are going to rely on a caster armor doing subpar melee damage who is relying on spells(Curses or Blood) to try to make up that damage with 80% of the time being 2sec or greater casts.... Do you see the issues that are going to occur once you step out of the playground of Tombs?
For those of you trying to defend these DoTs.....For one you are not going to be targeted much so half the efficiency of LT and LS are gone. Secondly in GvG 70% of all kills are the result of quick spike damage to a target so DoTs lose value because they need time to work so you never really use them when you kill someone.
At the very least if you are dead set on necro bring Rend Enchantments and spec 3-4 in curses. Then you can at least have a good value to your team and not be dead weight.
Ensign
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackell
Can we just once have a necro thread without the argument about whether they suck or not hijacking the thread?
I can see that happening here if we're discussing secondary Necromancers, and what the best skills to use on them would be. A discussion about which Necro skills are worth using is probably a good idea, in fact.
Anything regarding primary Necromancers is doomed to failure here, I'd think. A thread about actually effective primary Necros, for instance, would inevitibly have some 'I had success in Tombs with this terrible Necro build' reply in the first ten posts, and off we go again.
This is build discussion, after all, and we have people here who are trying to help people make the most effective build possible. So as long as any primary Necro thread is going to include 'Primary Necros are AWESOME' we get to have this same conversation over and over again.
Peace,
-CxE
Anything regarding primary Necromancers is doomed to failure here, I'd think. A thread about actually effective primary Necros, for instance, would inevitibly have some 'I had success in Tombs with this terrible Necro build' reply in the first ten posts, and off we go again.
This is build discussion, after all, and we have people here who are trying to help people make the most effective build possible. So as long as any primary Necro thread is going to include 'Primary Necros are AWESOME' we get to have this same conversation over and over again.
Peace,
-CxE
Jackell
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ensign
I can see that happening here if we're discussing secondary Necromancers, and what the best skills to use on them would be. A discussion about which Necro skills are worth using is probably a good idea, in fact.
Anything regarding primary Necromancers is doomed to failure here, I'd think. A thread about actually effective primary Necros, for instance, would inevitibly have some 'I had success in Tombs with this terrible Necro build' reply in the first ten posts, and off we go again.
This is build discussion, after all, and we have people here who are trying to help people make the most effective build possible. So as long as any primary Necro thread is going to include 'Primary Necros are AWESOME' we get to have this same conversation over and over again. Yeah, I can see your point here. It's shame every necro primary thread has to deteriorate into this, but it is agreed. Same pattern that follows the other threads. Well, if it will be usefull, I'll create a necro secondary thread, that way I can contribute more than just arguing with you about what's worthless and what isn't.
Anything regarding primary Necromancers is doomed to failure here, I'd think. A thread about actually effective primary Necros, for instance, would inevitibly have some 'I had success in Tombs with this terrible Necro build' reply in the first ten posts, and off we go again.
This is build discussion, after all, and we have people here who are trying to help people make the most effective build possible. So as long as any primary Necro thread is going to include 'Primary Necros are AWESOME' we get to have this same conversation over and over again. Yeah, I can see your point here. It's shame every necro primary thread has to deteriorate into this, but it is agreed. Same pattern that follows the other threads. Well, if it will be usefull, I'll create a necro secondary thread, that way I can contribute more than just arguing with you about what's worthless and what isn't.
Ander Deathblade
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scaphism
Let's try and respect the resources we have here, instead of worshipping idols from afar. The skills are balanced on their optimal use. That is why Strength, if you really look at it, is such an absolutely terrible primary attribute. Because its optimal use would be overpowered if it was any more powerful. This is also why the Necromancer skills in question are so crappy. If they were any more powerful, their optimal use would mean total devastation. Why do you think the devs haven't given Necros a sizable boost?
Quote:
Well I'll give it to you: They have no idea how to further balance them. If you give Deathly Swarm a 1 second cast time, I can give you one hell of a powerful skill. A Necro isn't also a damage class, is it? And a Necromancer with a bit more where he's receiving a bit less now, would totally ruin the premise of the mesmer and what he stands for, because quite frankly, they'd be better at it.
Quote:
I think you've really missed the point here- are you comparing a necro primary with a warrior primary? Warrior armor and runes are two of the major reasons to become a warrior primary in the first place- if you want to pump your swordsmanship as high as it can possibly go, you have to be a warrior primary. And for high damage builds, that's exactly what you want. A warrior can take a -75 HP hit from a superior rune because no one bothers to attack them til the rest of their team is wiped out. Explot the opportunity that's given to you.|
That said, necromancers are not awful, and the problems have been discussed ad nauseum here. The core of the necromancer's problem is that anything a primary necro can do, a secondary necro can do just as well. Their primary attribute is bad, and there's little reason to want a maxed out necro attribute, so their runes are mostly useless as well. At least, for the current combo insight we have. Quote:
If I knew the answer to that, you can bet I'd be here to share it with all of you.
Quote: |
well, if not for swordsmanship (which I need maxed with runes), I would pretty much feel the same way about Warrior. Strength is awful. but it adds to damage, aka the optimal use.
I think you've really missed the point here- are you comparing a necro primary with a warrior primary? Warrior armor and runes are two of the major reasons to become a warrior primary in the first place- if you want to pump your swordsmanship as high as it can possibly go, you have to be a warrior primary. And for high damage builds, that's exactly what you want. A warrior can take a -75 HP hit from a superior rune because no one bothers to attack them til the rest of their team is wiped out. Explot the opportunity that's given to you. The exact opposite is true for necromancers, and this is where your argument really falls apart. I can't think of a single necromancer build where I'd like 16 in the attribute- except for Death Necromancers, but I wont play those competetively either. Curses? 8 or 9 is perfectly acceptable, 3-5 if all you're taking is Rend and SOF. Blood? The best skills in the line are Offering of Blood and Blood is Power- you want them somewhere in the 7-9 range. There are 2 reasons to want your Blood Magic above 9- Life Siphon gets it's third pip at 12 blood magic, and if you are spamming Order of the Vampire/Pain, then you want to jack up Blood as high as you can get it. I've designed an OOV spam character, if and when I actually play it, I'd push blood magic up to 14 or so. Until then, necromancers are the complete opposite of warriors- Necro attributes are good in the 7-9 range, easy to do on a secondary necro. Four attribute builds in particular fit well. Warriors can get away with jacking their weapon attributes to astronomical levels because of their terrific armor. As for Strength- it ranks near the bottom of the list of primary attributes, but it's not bad. When tactics was trash it was a no brainer- at the very least you'd dump some points in because of the passive boost and the improved sprint. The buff to tactics makes strength look worse by contrast, but by no means is it anywhere in the realm of soul reaping. No, the ranking of primary attributes goes something like this: 1st tier: Expertise 2nd tier: Energy Storage and Divine Favor 3rd tier: Fast Casting and Strength Dead Last: Soul Reaping. Expertise is the runaway winner- it has the most powerful effect as well as some very good linked skills. You always want to crank this to 13 or 14. Energy Storage and Divine Favor are good around 10, which is perfect with 3 attribute builds. They have some good, if unspectacular linked skills. Fast Casting and Strength: You have points in these because they are useful effects, but not game changing. Fast Casting would be stellar with a few more linked skills, and strength has a ton of linked skills, plus the passive armor penetration, plus a shield. You could certainly make an argument for tactics instead of strength, but strength still has a vaild case. Soul Reaping, as usual is bringing up the rear, all by itself. To compare a necro to a warrior, to compare blood to swords, is comparing a D student to a B+. One is acceptable at moderate levels, the other you crank as high as you can get. Cranked through the roof is only available to primaries- if you remove that mechanic, you're playing a different game entirely. This is exactly why there aren't necro primaries- you don't need 14, or 16 blood. If you did, we'd stop ragging on them. Finally: Quote:
I never said "not" was the key word. Learn to read a sentence properly.
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If I knew the answer to that, you can bet I'd be here to share it with all of you. |
The exact opposite is true for necromancers, and this is where your argument really falls apart. I can't think of a single necromancer build where I'd like 16 in the attribute- except for Death Necromancers, but I wont play those competetively either. Curses? 8 or 9 is perfectly acceptable, 3-5 if all you're taking is Rend and SOF.
Blood? The best skills in the line are Offering of Blood and Blood is Power- you want them somewhere in the 7-9 range.
There are 2 reasons to want your Blood Magic above 9- Life Siphon gets it's third pip at 12 blood magic, and if you are spamming Order of the Vampire/Pain, then you want to jack up Blood as high as you can get it. I've designed an OOV spam character, if and when I actually play it, I'd push blood magic up to 14 or so.
Until then, necromancers are the complete opposite of warriors- Necro attributes are good in the 7-9 range, easy to do on a secondary necro. Four attribute builds in particular fit well. Warriors can get away with jacking their weapon attributes to astronomical levels because of their terrific armor.
As for Strength- it ranks near the bottom of the list of primary attributes, but it's not bad. When tactics was trash it was a no brainer- at the very least you'd dump some points in because of the passive boost and the improved sprint. The buff to tactics makes strength look worse by contrast, but by no means is it anywhere in the realm of soul reaping.
No, the ranking of primary attributes goes something like this:
1st tier: Expertise
2nd tier: Energy Storage and Divine Favor
3rd tier: Fast Casting and Strength
Dead Last: Soul Reaping. Blah. This whole part is a whole lot of rambling about which I said nothing. A lot of it is common knowledge, but I would like to say Expertise right now is why I wouldn't go Ranger at the moment. The fact is, to be a not totally sucky ranger, you NEED high expertise. It's an absolute requirement. Marksmanship is the worst attribute in the game without expertise, and being a ranger secondary for marksmanship is ridiculous - 25 energy for concussion shot? Down with expertise, up with Ranger. Quote: Expertise is the runaway winner- it has the most powerful effect as well as some very good linked skills. You always want to crank this to 13 or 14.
Energy Storage and Divine Favor are good around 10, which is perfect with 3 attribute builds. They have some good, if unspectacular linked skills.
Fast Casting and Strength: You have points in these because they are useful effects, but not game changing. Fast Casting would be stellar with a few more linked skills, and strength has a ton of linked skills, plus the passive armor penetration, plus a shield. You could certainly make an argument for tactics instead of strength, but strength still has a vaild case.
Soul Reaping, as usual is bringing up the rear, all by itself. Firstly, put Soul Reaping FAR above Strength - - Mantra of Recovery is easily one of the most powerful skills in the game, and it beats any elite Strength can pitch against it, yes I mean Battle Rage. Also, when you learn something about tactics, I think you'll look at Soul Reaping a bit differently. Just like all the people saying: "God Mantra of Recall is a horrible elite". It's moot, it's simple, and it's only like that because everyone playing the game still sucks at it. I'd say it's funny how extremely underused Mantra of Resolve is. This will change, and I'm sure they'll end up giving it a nerf.
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To compare a necro to a warrior, to compare blood to swords, is comparing a D student to a B+. One is acceptable at moderate levels, the other you crank as high as you can get. Cranked through the roof is only available to primaries- if you remove that mechanic, you're playing a different game entirely. This is exactly why there aren't necro primaries- you don't need 14, or 16 blood. If you did, we'd stop ragging on them.
that is also why Necromancer has the key to this game down pat - diversity. The Warrior has nothing- absolutely nothing - going for it except doing damage. And only that if he goes unattended. This is what the Necromancer is good at - it is extremely diverse, has a wide radius of choice in skills - and it pays a penalty for that, granted. Right now, because people don't understand Guild Wars yet - and 4 warriors / 4 monks on a team are actually able to go top ranking, the Necro seems to get the shaft on all fronts. But it's not that shaft you should be looking at, it's the "all fronts". 'cause that is what is unique about the Necro. Quote:
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