+5 armor and +30 hp upgrade. Is this the truth?

not as many people have as good as monks as me with them.

Aye,
-thoros of myr/death of discworld

Mastery parts are the only ones that contribute to the offense at all, sure - but that contribution is pretty much negligible (1%). Granted, that is still 1%, but that effect is so trivial that I'd rather grab a much stronger effect and work around it - hell, you'd probably be better off grabbing a +30 health upgrade and a Major Strength rune, if you just wanted a slight damage bonus.

I do think that Warriors need to worry about defense, even in PvP. The class basically requires that they run out of healing range just to chase targets, making them vulnerable to spikes on a target of opportunity. Then you take into account other tactics, like running off to solo priests or running flags around in GvG, where Warriors are expected to take care of themselves. Warriors can and do take damage, and extra defense, while not nearly as valuable as extra offense, should still be run simply because the effect is so much more powerful.

+health is also important on Warriors and Rangers as those classes tend to be very willing to give up max HP for more attribute levels from Superior Runes, and that can come back to haunt you if you build up a bit of DP. Lower health = increased value of +HP items.

Now, no, Mastery upgrades should not be completely thrown out because they are the only offensive weapon part. Effect for effect, though, they are an order of magnitude weaker than any of the other options available, and should only be run if there's no use whatsoever for any other part.

(Compared with Sundering, which should *never* be run over Vampiric).

Peace,
-CxE

In PvE, Warriors should definitely have the +Armor simply because the job of the Warrior is not to run behind the enemy lines and seek out casters to kill like what PvP players do. The PvE warrior should be tanking damage and along with healing, in the long run the armor will be the most efficient. Also, PvE warriors should not be using superior runes like PvP warriors so the benefit from the 30hp is smaller (A warrior with 530hp equipping a +30hp will get 5.7% extra hp, while a warrior with a superior rune at 455hp equipping a +30hp will get 6.6% extra hp).

However, you said that having the +hp will give you the extra time to run away with a caster or non-warrior class. Not always true, if you are taking non-penetrating attacks or non-armor ignoring attacks, the armor will give you more time. But of course that is a good point on that casters should not be getting hit at all. In fact, ideally a caster should not equip the +hp or the +armor at all. That extra hp and armor will at best give you one extra hit before you die, but having an Insightful staff head (+5 energy) or a Mastery wrapping will boost your damage dealing or healing capability in the long run. That extra 5 energy can be an extra Orison of Healing that is worth far more than 30hp or 5 armor. Of course if you are a uber healing monk with superior runes for both healing and divine favor, you might consider carrying a Hale Staff of Fortitude (+60 hp) to give you more padding from spikes. If you insist on carrying defensive weapons on a general caster, then a Defensive Staff of Fortitude or a Hale Staff of Defense (both have +30hp and +5 armor, giving you the best of both worlds) will probably be the best bet because the benefits of both of them have diminishing returns (meaning as you get more, you notice the benefits less).

Now if we stop and think about the price of a +5 vs a +30, the +5 armor is by far superior given the amount it costs.

Lol, agreed. If we are actually considering the benefits of upgrades and costs, we will realize how ridiculous some things are. A 10/10 sundering upgrade gives you roughly 10% more damage 10% of the time (note this doesn't affect the extra damage from attacks like Executioner's strike) so we are talking about fractions of a percentage of damage for something like 70k gold.

Yes this is a fact but, you need to take in considderation the Degain effect. armor +5 versus hp+30 during degain.......it would be a higher death rate with armor +5.

Considering in general there is the typical W/E/Mo Trinity crap going on...

Armor is definitely better.

If there is armor ignoring damage, unless that damage is the ONLY damage (which in 90% of cases it is not) the armor is better STILL.

Unless you are fighting ONLY armor ignoring damage and do not have hits doing damage from physical and elemental (aka everything but smiting, necros, mesmers, obsidian flame/crystal wave) I think Ensign is very correct.

Logically, people want fortitude, because they SEE the difference it makes on their little hp bar on their screen when in the outpost. People with the extra cash also shell out much money just to have the "best weapon", which is "sundering +30HP". You don't see vampiric 4/1 and 5/1 with +5 Armor being lauded, simply because of the -1 health regen and the fact that you don't SEE the armor being applied.

In short, it is because of the fact that people do not realize that only in the most uncommon of situations (aka only being hit by armor ignoring damage) will the +30HP be superior to the +5 Armor.

Not to mention, that the fortitude is costly and with that money you can buy a superior absorption which reduces damage from ALL attacks (not degen though).

If you read the whole thread you'll see that I was on your side of the argument. However Ensign convinced me when he pointed out that I had never been degen "spiked" to death. I now believe that he's right and that the +5al is better (unless you specifically know your enemy ahead of time as in PvE).

-Diomedes

what happens after 30HP...your +5 armor upgrade is still working however your Fortitude upgrade has become a null point. +5 AL is far more benefitial than a +30 Fortitude for a number of reasons. The least important of which is that 30HP is only 1 or 2 heavy blows or a degen of nearly any kind from any level character. Like ensign pointed out(I love his posts) the only Hit Point that matters is your last one. Give me 10 HP as long as I never see 0 i'll be happy about it. Armor upgrades make it harder for any class to hack away at you. This game is about taking as little damage as possible....damage reduction is the most important aspect of battle. Being able to take more damage than the guy standing next to you isn't all that valuable...being able to reduce your damage by even a single hitpoint over the course of a battle is infinitely more important than an extra 30HP.

Why do you believe that? Saving 1 hp from damage reduction is the exact same thing as having +1hp (for almost all intents and purposes).

Except for classes that deal damage that ignores armor...

I like his posts too, but as I pointed out, if you want to consider that +30 hp as your last +30, then you need to consider those hp saved by AL as your last equivalent HP.

And as we both like his quotes, I'll close by quoting his post from earlier in this thread.

-Diomedes

this game is more of a battle of energy than a battle of HP. Your monk doesn't get to see that you have +30HP all he sees is that your health is going down slower than everyone elses and that he doesn't need to waste energy healing you right this second. That helps keep his energy up and helps him heal you better. And I think we all should be able to take a hint from the 55/105 build in that keeping yourself healed is more important than having alot of hitpoints. It's easier to heal someone that has less HP...which adversely means they die quicky...the +5 armor upgrade buys you more time to get that heal. The +30 HP upgrade does the same...but to the monk your health is dropping at an alarming rate and like you pointed out many monks think "shit, he needs a heal right now" and then overheals. if you're overhealing by 20-30points you're waisting energy for no reason. And in a battle of energy that's a losing battle.



can't argue that...you definately benefit more from +30 HP when dealing with classes that do degen and armor ignoring damage



This is true when you are soloing...but most people don't solo and giving off the impression that your health is being squashed slower than everyone else in your party allows the monk to properly apply his heals to the right targets without wasting energy.




I tend to agree with both you and ensign that the upgrades are comparible depending on the situation. I believe +5 armor helps more often than +30HP does...though admittedly I am somewhat partial to +5 armor because I think it's insane to spend 80K-100K on 30 hitpoints...I tend to look at things in the "how benefitial is this to me for the price" type of way.