Maybe Im missing something... but where is all of this information coming from? (Not the article, but the allegations about NCSoft and Anet..) Im not dissagreeing with you, but Im confused as to why they would make the Korean's pay for GW, when the Americals and Euro's dont?
Maybe Im ignorant...
Prove me wrong.
Article - REAL world of Online Farming for profit.
EtrnalXellotath
Arcador
You know - there is a phrase "Things are not black and white".
There are thinkgs that look strange to some poeple, but are completely normal for others. Here is the simplest example - 90% of the americans don't know that Europeans use swiming trunks and do not wear bra (for the female) on the beach, so they look like "WTF???" when they see some.
So my points is that there may be some point about that fee that we don't understand. I know it looks "unfair" - imagine someone is beating another one on the street - your first reaction might be "Hey wtf you are doing and defend the beaten guy (which might be a good choise) but the things may not be as they seems and while helping the "beaten guy" you might actually do not help.
Sorry for the essay - I guess there will be more info about this thing, but untill then do not express too hastily.
There are thinkgs that look strange to some poeple, but are completely normal for others. Here is the simplest example - 90% of the americans don't know that Europeans use swiming trunks and do not wear bra (for the female) on the beach, so they look like "WTF???" when they see some.
So my points is that there may be some point about that fee that we don't understand. I know it looks "unfair" - imagine someone is beating another one on the street - your first reaction might be "Hey wtf you are doing and defend the beaten guy (which might be a good choise) but the things may not be as they seems and while helping the "beaten guy" you might actually do not help.
Sorry for the essay - I guess there will be more info about this thing, but untill then do not express too hastily.
Gedscho
i dont do such things, because i am a coward, and i am dumb.
but i guess everyone with an iq above 100 could raise such a company in a SAFE way.
there is only one problem:
"paying them cents for the dollar"
even if 58cents AN HOUR (or something like that) MIGHT be much in the country where the sweatshop is located, but after all is just not fair.
Its stealing from the poor. and dont even try to talk this away. those companies steal from people that have nothing. it is paradox, because they steal by giving to them, but nonetheless its THEFT IN THE WORST WAY.
DISGUSTING.
(oh and please dont come whining about a "ruined IG economy" for this doesnt matter, to people that get paid 50cents an hour.´)
but i guess everyone with an iq above 100 could raise such a company in a SAFE way.
there is only one problem:
"paying them cents for the dollar"
even if 58cents AN HOUR (or something like that) MIGHT be much in the country where the sweatshop is located, but after all is just not fair.
Its stealing from the poor. and dont even try to talk this away. those companies steal from people that have nothing. it is paradox, because they steal by giving to them, but nonetheless its THEFT IN THE WORST WAY.
DISGUSTING.
(oh and please dont come whining about a "ruined IG economy" for this doesnt matter, to people that get paid 50cents an hour.´)
Arcador
Well this theme is a whole different thing. There is a movie called "The corporations" out there and some thinks in it are quite true.
The phrase "The less you know/seen/have - the happy you are" works in full speed as the time progress.
The phrase "The less you know/seen/have - the happy you are" works in full speed as the time progress.
TheTim
I never realized how big of a industry it was.
Man.... thats sad.
The buyers with no life or ambition to earn something for themselves. And the sellers who exploit it so much that it ends up ruining the economy for everyone else.
Man.... thats sad.
The buyers with no life or ambition to earn something for themselves. And the sellers who exploit it so much that it ends up ruining the economy for everyone else.
Phades
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Tuon
You should ask yourself why people feel inclined to spend their hard earned cash to avoid playing a game. To avoid "having fun".
Don't blame consumers for design flaws. |
There are many things you can do, but that never means that you should do them.
thewayofway
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by TheTim
I never realized how big of a industry it was.
Man.... thats sad. The buyers with no life or ambition to earn something for themselves. And the sellers who exploit it so much that it ends up ruining the economy for everyone else. |
I loathe the insult of "You have no life." Some things seem better to do for some people and that doesn't mean they have no life. But, in a counter, wouldn't the ones buying gold (saving grind time) be the ones having a life? Where they take the two minute shortcut while you spend two hours?
I'd like people to step down from their preaching stands... telling everybody what is wrong and right. I'm certain many of you would be affronted if some anonymous person came up to you and started telling you that something was wrong, no exceptions. I've seen things written like gold buyers need to reevaluate their lives, spending real money on virtual money is foolish. Many want to take the easy route and I can't blame them.
So, in conclusion, I'd like to say that the community needs to drop the condescending attitude towards the gold buyers. It solves nothing in the end and only brews bad blood over an issue that should not be as controversial as it is.
Granamyr
Quote:
| So who are the bad guys? Buyers? Sellers? My guess is: both |
I would like to see the attempt at a money-less economy though. Eventually I think it would evolve into the barter system though and people would collect highly valuable, compact items and use them for money (read Stones of Jordan).
It's hard to combat the account selling though so if you can't beat em, join em. Game companies should sell fully evolved character versions of their game or allow people to pay real money to upgrade their in-game character to its final status. How many of you would have paid 5-10 extra dollars to have all of your skills unlocked?
I'm not going to argue the right or wrong of it or whether it's fair but if the game company won't sell what the public is demanding then someone else will. This isn't a novel concept either. Game companies need to wake up!
Bezerker
Sick people that do it, sicker people that buy it.
Xonic
I truely belive the sellers are not to be blamed. those buyers have 100% responsibility on this issue.
if there is no demend, there won't be any sellers. sellers are only responding to demends.
at the end, it's also the buyer who ruins the game for themselves. Yesterday they bought 100k gold from eBay, all of the sudden today they find out they need 200k gold to buy anything in game. Why? farmers/bots.
it's my lunch time now so I have to make it breify. but I hope the connection is clear enough without me wasting my keyboard's durability and internet bandwith to explain.
and then we see the complains and whines we see on this forum.
if there is no demend, there won't be any sellers. sellers are only responding to demends.
at the end, it's also the buyer who ruins the game for themselves. Yesterday they bought 100k gold from eBay, all of the sudden today they find out they need 200k gold to buy anything in game. Why? farmers/bots.
it's my lunch time now so I have to make it breify. but I hope the connection is clear enough without me wasting my keyboard's durability and internet bandwith to explain.
and then we see the complains and whines we see on this forum.
Granamyr
That's fine to blame the buyers but "demand" goes hand-in-hand with the desirability of the game. Show me a game where there is no demand for in-game items/gold and I'll show you a game that isn't being played.
BurningPants
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Gedscho
i dont do such things, because i am a coward, and i am dumb.
but i guess everyone with an iq above 100 could raise such a company in a SAFE way. there is only one problem: "paying them cents for the dollar" even if 58cents AN HOUR (or something like that) MIGHT be much in the country where the sweatshop is located, but after all is just not fair. Its stealing from the poor. and dont even try to talk this away. those companies steal from people that have nothing. it is paradox, because they steal by giving to them, but nonetheless its THEFT IN THE WORST WAY. DISGUSTING. (oh and please dont come whining about a "ruined IG economy" for this doesnt matter, to people that get paid 50cents an hour.´) |
Sure wouldn't anyone like to be getting payed to play? That is unless you have do not another source of income. The people at the top are making too much off of the virtual money market while the "sweatshop" gamers are getting, as mentioned above, 58 cents on the dollar.
You may say "these people do not have to stay at their jobs, they are free to quit", and "the conditions are not so bad, the article mentioned that some people liked their jobs".
Excessive gaming may be fun for you, but not everyone likes it. But thats opinion, right? Half of you don't have a job (not your fault you probably are on summer break or something) so here's what you do. Go and get a job which pays you 58 cents an hour to do this work. Stare at the bots all day and ensure everything is running smoothly, how fun. Once you realize how you are being ripped off by the people above you and how boring your job really is, you'll probably quit to find another, higher paying job. No problem right? Unless of course you have no other choice like many of the people in these sweatshops who need to support their families and not just themselves until they have to go back to school.
EDIT: "I'm supporting them by buying the gold from eBay etc...". You want to support them? Go over there and start a business where you can hire these people and pay them a decent salary. Start buying from companies who support the crops these people grow or the items these people make. That way my little rant doesn't seem communist.
Xonic
those desire should be fullfilled by getting the items/money in game, or by trading in game, not by bidding on eBay.
DrSLUGFly
wow...
This reshuffles my thoughts on the ebay for gold industry... need time to digest this craziness...
This reshuffles my thoughts on the ebay for gold industry... need time to digest this craziness...
Aernok
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Evan montegarde
Who's fault is this? Let's think...Oh, Anet! I'd never buy gold for money, but if it was as easy to earn 100,000 gold in the game as it is to earn $9 in real life, it would upset the whole ebay market.
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Xonic
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Aernok
Sounds reasonable. But if it becomes where you get 100k in an hour then the economy shifts to one that values only rare weapons. Diablo 2 SoJ's are a good example. So, if it shifts over to an economy based on weapons, the farmers still win because they can sell the weapons, and since they're harder to find, they can sell them at much higher prices than gold.
|
stoned bob
58cent an hour, what do u think the people earn that make ure shoes clothes hardware etc
wake up, I dont like it either but what are u gonna do about it, thats right live on, or all u all gonna give up ure jobs/life to fight for good salary/workconditions around the whole world, and prob make all stuff thats bought in the western world alot more expensive
wake up, I dont like it either but what are u gonna do about it, thats right live on, or all u all gonna give up ure jobs/life to fight for good salary/workconditions around the whole world, and prob make all stuff thats bought in the western world alot more expensive
Ninna
article is publicly available at CGW
Wage Slaves:
From sweatshops to stateside corporations, some people are profiting off of MMO gold.
http://www.1up.com/do/feature?cId=3141815&did=1
Wage Slaves:
From sweatshops to stateside corporations, some people are profiting off of MMO gold.
http://www.1up.com/do/feature?cId=3141815&did=1
Ashley Twig
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Granamyr
My guess is neither. There is nothing morally "bad" about capitalism.
|
But "moral values" can be interpreted as you please. I've been called "immoral" for less significant reasons.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Granamyr
How many of you would have paid 5-10 extra dollars to have all of your skills unlocked?
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Krank
Just wow i ...
wow..
wow..
MuKen
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ashley Twig
It fuels greed, which, if I got the movie se7en correctly, is one of the major sins.
|
Note: I am not actually religious, but merely debating within a religious context.
Magik
There's always one thing to counter another, you buying the gold helps support them since the sweatshop workers might possibly be in need of financial help, but on the other hand it might ruin GW economy, or for lazy people only blah blah blah. The concept of ying and yang is all around us. Not everyone's views are the same, no everyone is religiously the same, even living on one city compared to another is totally different, and the way you describe a glass of water would mean to you, could be totally different to another from another country. The sweatshop workers are not being held as slaves, their work conditions are not horrible either, they work there because it's an easy job, if they wanted better I'm sure they could find it. If people have the money to spend on services like this and they do, what's there to complain about? You cannot experiance happiness without sadness. Give a little to get a little.
Granamyr
I am not willing to condemn any of the players within this farming arena...neither buyers, sellers, workers, owners, etc. The only thing that suffers in this equation is the game's economy and someone needs to show me an online game economy that hasn't tanked almost immediately on its own before claiming its destruction was evil and not eventual.
It would be one thing if these games actually spent time trying to foster their in-game economy or took measures to provide gamers with their demands. ANet could have made a fortune had they included in the collector's edition and Unlock All Skills option. The players were demanding it, why not supply it? If ANet doesn't supply it, someone else will and I don't have a problem with that.....explain why you do?
It would be one thing if these games actually spent time trying to foster their in-game economy or took measures to provide gamers with their demands. ANet could have made a fortune had they included in the collector's edition and Unlock All Skills option. The players were demanding it, why not supply it? If ANet doesn't supply it, someone else will and I don't have a problem with that.....explain why you do?
Hiryu
Quote:
| This is ridiculous. |
Massive respect to the entrepreneurs who thought of this. They exist because gamers wanted them to exist. Otherwise, they'd be out of a job. As for the sweatshops, the people who work in them wanted to work in them. These sweatshops employed otherwise unemployed people, or else improved the incomes of said people.
/end honest opinion
Mjollnir of Eitri
If you can sucker someone into buying a virtual item, more power to ya. I don't really care.
Loviatar
as for that 58 cents/hour you have to consider how cheap everything else is.
it might not be a single mc dinner here but there it is a living wage.
i said living i did not say good.
close them down and some might die.
as stated where else will they find employment?(prostitution maybe?)
it might not be a single mc dinner here but there it is a living wage.
i said living i did not say good.
close them down and some might die.
as stated where else will they find employment?(prostitution maybe?)
d.crane
wow, that's pretty stunning
i have all these things in my head to say, but i just cant muster the words
Ok, i'd first like to say that i agree with the post above me ^
without this job (which may not be the best) how would they live?
i believe someone else said something about how they could get all this money from the stuff they farm. Thats the same with any job! If, for instance, i worked at a movie theatre (which, i do
) i could steal all the money in the till, that i made over that shift, and make more than i got payed to come to work and collect this money.
It is true, these people are very intelligent for seeing a possibility for profit (by selling in game gold and items), but they're using people's poverty to their advantage, which is morally wrong.
I have things to say, but it's hard to type what i really mean.
i have all these things in my head to say, but i just cant muster the words
Ok, i'd first like to say that i agree with the post above me ^
without this job (which may not be the best) how would they live?
i believe someone else said something about how they could get all this money from the stuff they farm. Thats the same with any job! If, for instance, i worked at a movie theatre (which, i do
) i could steal all the money in the till, that i made over that shift, and make more than i got payed to come to work and collect this money.It is true, these people are very intelligent for seeing a possibility for profit (by selling in game gold and items), but they're using people's poverty to their advantage, which is morally wrong.
I have things to say, but it's hard to type what i really mean.
H2SO4
basically youre right, hey ! miscellanious-chineese-virtual-sweatshop-runner #272, heres $20, Im joing your party afor one hrour,going to kill myself and you're going to get gold.
PERFECTLY ALLOWED
or
ME: "miscellanious-chineese-virtual-sweatshop-runner #275, heres $20 for no reason."
MCVSR#275: "Heres 100K for no special reson, enjoy life"
ME: "ta"
not a crime
I've never done this, but I dont see anytihng wrong with it especially if I just oculdnt be bothered 'farming' How else are you supposed to get all the facy stuff ? Hope that it arrives during the course of the missions ? feh !
FARMING !
PERFECTLY ALLOWED
or
ME: "miscellanious-chineese-virtual-sweatshop-runner #275, heres $20 for no reason."
MCVSR#275: "Heres 100K for no special reson, enjoy life"
ME: "ta"
not a crime
I've never done this, but I dont see anytihng wrong with it especially if I just oculdnt be bothered 'farming' How else are you supposed to get all the facy stuff ? Hope that it arrives during the course of the missions ? feh !
FARMING !
Juhanah
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Evan montegarde
Who's fault is this? Let's think...Oh, Anet! I'd never buy gold for money, but if it was as easy to earn 100,000 gold in the game as it is to earn $9 in real life, it would upset the whole ebay market.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by EtrnalXellotath
Maybe Im missing something... but where is all of this information coming from? (Not the article, but the allegations about NCSoft and Anet..) Im not dissagreeing with you, but Im confused as to why they would make the Korean's pay for GW, when the Americals and Euro's dont?
Maybe Im ignorant... Prove me wrong. |
https://secure.guildwars.co.kr/payme...ment/intro.asp
and there to get day/month/year pay cards.
https://secure.guildwars.co.kr/payme...wCardGuide.asp
Game market in Asia don't work like in America and Europe. I wouldn't be surprise if China get Pay-to-Play also.
If Thailand join in, they will have Pay-to-Play too since the game market over there is ruled by a mad company named AsiaSoft who even make game server close at night so kids go to sleep haha.
EDIT: Also in Korea, most people play games from internet cafe, so they pay the guy who hold the cafe to use the computer and play the game, while the cafe holder pay the monthly fees for his games. I never went to Korea but i'm sure they have dedicated internet cafe for each games
Red Sonya
Maybe there really is a MATRIX!! So basically what we should all do is not buy any foreign publishers games. And local games shouldn't allow foreign accounts. That'll fix the foreign sweatshops. I know you couldn't get an American to work for .58 an hour, lol, SSI and Welfare pay much more than that.
So basically what we should all do is not buy any foreign publishers games. And local games shouldn't allow foreign accounts. That'll fix the foreign sweatshops. I know you couldn't get an American to work for .58 an hour, lol, SSI and Welfare pay much more than that.
Arturo02
and Hiryu wins the "Rez of the Week" Award!
Dametrus
Okay, this may be a far fetched conspiracy, but it is pretty believable. WHAT IF...NCSoft/Anet get a cut from these sweatshops earnings? HMMMM...makes you think huh.
I remember when there was an article about Sony at one time about everquest sweatshops. There was actual evidence of fund transfers from certain known farming companies to Sony. I wish I could find it now. Been about 2-3 years though.
IT"$ ALL ABOUT THE BENJAMIN$ BABY!!!
I remember when there was an article about Sony at one time about everquest sweatshops. There was actual evidence of fund transfers from certain known farming companies to Sony. I wish I could find it now. Been about 2-3 years though.
IT"$ ALL ABOUT THE BENJAMIN$ BABY!!!
Red Sonya
SOE even setup servers on EQ2 for selling of ingame items for real life dollars, did you know that? They wanted to streamline their profits since they lost so many subscibers to WoW and GW's. lol
They wanted to streamline their profits since they lost so many subscibers to WoW and GW's. lol
darkMishkin
Wow, the world is a bad place, never realised that. I just thought we were all happy capitalists eating vacuum packed food while playing censored online games. You imagine that anything you buy; trainers, shirts, christmas presents, were made by workers in better conditions? I think the term 'fire and forget' perfectly describes amateur activists who post their furious morals on internet forums, who then proceed to decorate their serious message with ridiculous smiley faces.
Xethrion
The way I see it, there are 2 ways of getting rich. One, you have lots of time (IE you're a student) and can farm like mad. Or two, you have a glut of RL cash (you're working) and you can afford to eBay your gold. I don't see the problem with busy professionals wanting to buy gold to enjoy the game.
Or are you suggesting that you, the "mad l33tz0rs g4m3rz!!!oneone" are the only ones who can have fancy armour and weapons? And that busy professionals, who have to work, and put food on the table, should be stuck with crappy stuff on their characters when they want to unwind after a long day's work?
Or are you suggesting that you, the "mad l33tz0rs g4m3rz!!!oneone" are the only ones who can have fancy armour and weapons? And that busy professionals, who have to work, and put food on the table, should be stuck with crappy stuff on their characters when they want to unwind after a long day's work?
Tiq
Buying game money with real money is cheating, simple as that, its got nothing to do with the "l33tz0rs g4m3rz!!!" as you put it.......your using real money to gain an unfair advantage over others, because they have more time to play than you.
Lady Cream
If they were no buyers, they were no sellers. Go in Ebay, and check some profiles... and it's always funny to see an ebay item in trades forums... or someone who buy crystallines and resell on ebay...
Xethrion
So people should get punished for not having as much free time as students? They should be punished for being working adults? They should be at an inherent disadvantage and get made fun of by 'kids' (I generalize) because they don't have as much free time as them to play and get 'l337 armour'?
I don't see how the advantage is unfair as the more expensive versions of the same armour are just better aesthetically. Or how the collector weapons and expensive weapons differ only by a few percentage points (upgrade as well). Admittedly, some greens are better than their collector variants. But the difference isn't that great IMO, to make it seriously unfair. Unless you're talking bout how UNFAIR IT IS that "people who spend less time than me playing the game can have the same cool armour as me". Adults have a life. The mega-farmers who farm for hours on end don't. To balance that out, adults have cash, the mega INGAME farmers don't. Too bad isn't it. The world is actually *gasp* fair!
Perhaps the people who are *I generalize again* losers in real life want some reason to lord over people in game just because they have more time to spend. Too bad, the real world intrudes yet again on their fantasy world. Because this game is made by REAL people and played by REAL people living in a REAL world. Tragic isn't it.
PS : I'm a student. I farmed every ecto of my Fissure armours by solomonking the UW because I have plenty of spare time. But I don't begrudge people who have no time to spend on the game, buying ingame stuff with their real life money. Because, as long as the money spent makes them feel good, who are you to decide how they should spend their hard earned money?
I don't see how the advantage is unfair as the more expensive versions of the same armour are just better aesthetically. Or how the collector weapons and expensive weapons differ only by a few percentage points (upgrade as well). Admittedly, some greens are better than their collector variants. But the difference isn't that great IMO, to make it seriously unfair. Unless you're talking bout how UNFAIR IT IS that "people who spend less time than me playing the game can have the same cool armour as me". Adults have a life. The mega-farmers who farm for hours on end don't. To balance that out, adults have cash, the mega INGAME farmers don't. Too bad isn't it. The world is actually *gasp* fair!
Perhaps the people who are *I generalize again* losers in real life want some reason to lord over people in game just because they have more time to spend. Too bad, the real world intrudes yet again on their fantasy world. Because this game is made by REAL people and played by REAL people living in a REAL world. Tragic isn't it.
PS : I'm a student. I farmed every ecto of my Fissure armours by solomonking the UW because I have plenty of spare time. But I don't begrudge people who have no time to spend on the game, buying ingame stuff with their real life money. Because, as long as the money spent makes them feel good, who are you to decide how they should spend their hard earned money?
Numa Pompilius
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Arturo02
and Hiryu wins the "Rez of the Week" Award!
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Tiq
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Xethrion
So people should get punished for not having as much free time as students? They should be punished for being working adults? They should be at an inherent disadvantage and get made fun of by 'kids' (I generalize) because they don't have as much free time as them to play and get 'l337 armour'?
I don't see how the advantage is unfair as the more expensive versions of the same armour are just better aesthetically. Or how the collector weapons and expensive weapons differ only by a few percentage points (upgrade as well). Admittedly, some greens are better than their collector variants. But the difference isn't that great IMO, to make it seriously unfair. Unless you're talking bout how UNFAIR IT IS that "people who spend less time than me playing the game can have the same cool armour as me". Adults have a life. The mega-farmers who farm for hours on end don't. To balance that out, adults have cash, the mega INGAME farmers don't. Too bad isn't it. The world is actually *gasp* fair! Perhaps the people who are *I generalize again* losers in real life want some reason to lord over people in game just because they have more time to spend. Too bad, the real world intrudes yet again on their fantasy world. Because this game is made by REAL people and played by REAL people living in a REAL world. Tragic isn't it. PS : I'm a student. I farmed every ecto of my Fissure armours by solomonking the UW because I have plenty of spare time. But I don't begrudge people who have no time to spend on the game, buying ingame stuff with their real life money. Because, as long as the money spent makes them feel good, who are you to decide how they should spend their hard earned money? |
If people dont have time to play the game properly, they shouldnt bother buying it, if you dont have a decent amount of time to put into a game, then an mmo isnt really the right choice.
If everyone else is having to put in time be it farming or trading or whatever to make theyre money, then so should everyone else
Then theres the fact that the more people who buy using real life money and such, the more it thrives, and the more you end up with jacked up prices on items, making it impossible for the normal players to buy them, and as I said, using real life money is cheating, plane and simple.