After reading a post below about R/me I wrote this post in order to further the conversation. However, I did not want to hijack the thread in this discussion. I also did not feel that this is covered in the Ranger sticky.
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R/Me
I'm very drawn to R/Me myself. Those are my two favorite professions. I believe Ensign has stated on many occassions to what must be the truth of why I love these to professions the most, thy're similar. There's almost too many skills in the Me line that I believe complement the Ranger's line. Of course, Imagined Burden and Pin Down almost serve the same purpose so....
R/N?
After searching through the posts, I find it a hard pill to swallow to go R/N just for Rend. Are there any other skills that I might want to take into a PVP and a PVE situation ? All of them look "ok" I'm not a fan of Nec's though.
R/Mo
On the oher hand I see Judge's Insight as a upgrade from the Conjure line based on the fact that I don't have to worry about getting elemental strings. I also like the idea that I might have room for a res.
R/W
I find this build to be the head scratcher of the all builds. I never understood it, it seems like you gain the use of some skills that you could of found substitutes from other classes while losing all the armor that you could have been wearing. Someone tell me that there is some other reason than seeing rangers with swords.
R/E
By now we've all seen the shock sniper and how, due to the last change to conjure, it appears to be a bit of a tough choice just for that one skill. I like many of the Elemental lines of skills as I think they would help. Any AoE will send most foes running, and comboed with Hunter's shot, that means they'll be on the floor (well, at least one of them). Conjure was the only skill taken on Ensign's build and I wonder why? Is there no other skill worth taking over a Ranger's skill set ?
Since Ensign says R/Me is Redundant, What to do ?
Zarconis
Scaphism
I love that you reference Ensign in the thread title, that's classic.
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There's almost too many skills in the Me line that I believe complement the Ranger's line. Of course, Imagined Burden and Pin Down almost serve the same purpose so....
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Mesmer spells don't compliment Ranger skills- they compete for the top 8 spots. You don't care what the 9th best skill for shutting down a caster is- it's left behind. You're not adding any diversity to your skill choices- you're adding redundancy, and it doesn't help you.
Add to that, Mesmer spells don't benefit from expertise, most cost 10-15 energy, and have somewhat longer cast times because they're intended to be coupled with Fast Casting to be effective.
What you get is a Ranger that eats up his energy pool casting inefficient spells when he would be better off attacking and using ranger interrupts that are
A) Cheaper to use (because of expertise)
B) Do damage because they are bow attacks + Interrupts.
If you are planning for PVE, again, the mantra is do what you like.
Zealous Mods are a little less important than sheer damage because you want to lay down a lot of fire quickly, then you can rest up. Zealous is great in PVP because fights tend to be long, drawn out affairs, and your energy management becomes crucial. You have more room to fudge in PVE.
Again, when selecting a sub-profession for a ranger, you have to consider the energy costs of the skills you're bringing. Will they be affected by Expertise? If not, then you'd better have a persuasive reason for bringing that skill along.
Ranger/Elementalist
I can't think of much reason past Conjure to go Fire R/E.
With air I'd probably grab Conjure Lightning and Gale, then let it be.
For water I'd grab Conjure and maybe armor or a snare.
Earth has no conjure, so forget it. If you want protection on your ranger, play a Ranger/Monk.
Ranger/Necro
You don't really need Rend in PVE, but it's invaluable in PVP. My second character will be a Ranger/Necro, and I expect them to be very popular.
If you want something else, bring some warrior hate. Shadow of Fear and Enfeebling Blood are excellent choices, very good without a heavy attribute investment. Faintheartedness works in place of Shadow of Fear, substituting light health degen instead of a small AOE effect.
Ranger/Monk
Depending on how easy it is to switch secondaries, I may play a Ranger/Monk and briefly switch to necro to grab Rend and Shadow of Fear, then switch back to Ranger/Monk. Every party can benefit from a backup healer or emergency rezzer.
Ranger/Warrior
This one is a bit of a head scratcher at first glance, but it does kind of work.
If you can't afford to splash attribute points into Beastmastery for Tiger's Fury, then Frenzy is a great substitute with no linked attribute at all. Remember that stances are affected by expertise, as are shouts. Grab something like Shields Up or Watch Yourself and you get some free defense at minimal attribute investment.
And of course, you have the oh-so-popular Sword Ranger, because everyone knows Aragorn is teh Sexah, you cannot resist him so why try? Grab a sword yourself and vanquish some evil.
Ander Deathblade
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Originally Posted by Zarconis
I'm very drawn to R/Me myself. Those are my two favorite professions. I believe Ensign has stated on many occassions to what must be the truth of why I love these to professions the most, thy're similar. There's almost too many skills in the Me line that I believe complement the Ranger's line. Of course, Imagined Burden and Pin Down almost serve the same purpose so....
Quote: R/N?
After searching through the posts, I find it a hard pill to swallow to go R/N just for Rend. Are there any other skills that I might want to take into a PVP and a PVE situation ? All of them look "ok" I'm not a fan of Nec's though. PvE, R/N is a great profession. for PvE, rend is quite useless, and most other skills can be quite good. If you're not a fan of necros, don't take them Quote:
R/Mo
On the oher hand I see Judge's Insight as a upgrade from the Conjure line based on the fact that I don't have to worry about getting elemental strings. I also like the idea that I might have room for a res. keep in mind that Judge's Insight only lasts 18 seconds at full smiting, which you probably won't have.. 15 seconds of judges insight means you have to recast it four times in one minute. And it'll cost you 40 energy where conjure will cost you 10. It has its advantages, definitely. and the rez is always convenient. but consider it.
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Someone has to, and the Ranger is the best man to do it. The combination is pretty natural, when you start to break it down. The Ranger has a ton of good skills that you want to run, making space tight - the Necromancer is fine running on 2 or 3 skill slots. The Ranger is extremely attribute hungry, wanting high Expertise, Marksmanship, and likely some Survival and Beastmastery as well - most Necromancer lines start to top out in effectiveness in the 6-8 range. Rangers are a solid ranged class that has a limited set of options when the opponent gets close - Necromancers have a solid skillset for freezing melee packs.|
R/W I find this build to be the head scratcher of the all builds. I never understood it, it seems like you gain the use of some skills that you could of found substitutes from other classes while losing all the armor that you could have been wearing. Someone tell me that there is some other reason than seeing rangers with swords. most people use it for Frenzy, just make a full ranger with Frenzy. Frenzy is a better skill for rangers than it is for warriors, because they are rarely in the eye of combat. And the Ranger also has the best armor vs. elemental, used to even have the best armor in general, with studded leather. Which was better than warrior armor, because it had 80 AL+20 elemental AL, and an extra arrow of regen. It was changed to 70/30 with a 15 AL bonus to lightning damage, which, with its energy bonus, is still a very valid reason to go ranger over warrior, even for a warrior char. Also keep in mind, Expertise lowers the cost of Attack skills, that also means melee attacks. Quote:
Right, and similarity is not a strength. You only get eight skills, so it doesn't matter if you have five, ten, fifty, or a million skills that all do the same thing - you can only run so many of them, and only the best make the cut. In addition you don't have the versatility of other combinations, making this more of a niche character combination than an 'I fit into every party' combo.
That said, the niche you're in - caster hunting - is fairly important in PvP (though not PvE) so you'll still end up fitting on a fair number of teams. It's not a character that's good at anything else, but if all you want to do is kill Monks in the Tombs you could do a lot worse. Quote: |
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Basically the Necromancer doesn't offer a lot as a secondary, but the Ranger doesn't want a lot either, and what the Necromancer is selling is right in line with what you're looking for. The main reason not to play one? Because Rangers are the most popular class in Guild Wars, and it seems like every other player is running a three character, six class setup with a Ranger/Necromancer. They're nice, but they're one or two per party characters, and that doesn't quite work out when fully 1/3 of the characters around are Ranger/Necros.
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Someone tell me that there is some other reason than seeing rangers with swords.
Rangers with swords is the popular reason to take this combo, but there's a bit more to it than that. Take a Ranger with Frenzy, Shields Up, and Watch Yourself, and you have a fairly high damage machine that protects everyone around him. I normally look at this combination much as I do the Ranger/Mesmer, though - a specific character for specific needs, not something that's going to get played in a majority of parties.
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Originally Posted by Jackell
Mesmer skills can affect either melee fighters or casters
Here's the thing - if you want to shut down melee or otherwise physical attackers, why not just use a Necromancer secondary? Shadow of Fear + Enfeebling Blood, even at moderate attribute levels, is an order of magnitude more effective than anything that a Mesmer can cook up.Quote:
A few compliment the Ranger? Most certainly. They don't make him an all-around versatile character though - that would take a secondary that covers up weaknesses instead of one that merely reinforces strengths.|
Originally Posted by Zarconis
By now we've all seen the shock sniper and how, due to the last change to conjure, it appears to be a bit of a tough choice just for that one skill.
Ah, but what a skill it is!
Seriously though, this is not a combination that you'll want to use if you want to switch up your roles at all. There is very little that the Elementalist offers the Ranger besides Conjure, and elementalized bows lock you out of zealous and other mods. The draw is that a solid, sustainable ranged damage dealer is always in demand, so you'll prove useful to a lot of teams even if you're inflexible. Peace, -CxE
Zarconis
I think what you mean is there are certain combinations that work out really well and leave the door for further tweaking after developing some guild strategies whereas other combinations pigeon-hole you into either a specific build or perhaps a build that could be better with different profession combinations.
I think that the other problem that you (ensign) mentioned is that in the case of the ranger you will have at least 3 attributes that you'll want in the high numbers, that doesn't leave a whole lot of room to boost your secondary profession's attributes at all. Oh and where's the feedback for the build I posted...?
Jackell
A lot of Ranger/mes skills are overlapping, and that is a downfall, but a very few compliment the ranger and could complete the all aroundness. Being forced to strictly monk hunt? No.
Mesmer skills can affect either melee fighters or casters, so if you build it right you can be very versitale. Stop a monk from healing, drop an elementalist in mid spell, and take down the big men like a ton of bricks. There's serious potential in the Ranger/Mesmer build. Just pick the right skills and play the right way.
Ensign
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Originally Posted by Jackell
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You want to use your Mesmer secondary to harass melee and casters? Now you hit the wall of how to get the Mesmer caster harassment up to par with your Expertise-affected Ranger disruption, plus pumping up an attribute to get even mediocre melee hate, plus still devoting the neccessary APs to the extremely-needy Expertise and Marksmanship.
In my experience, you are much, much better off running Pin Down + Barbed Trap for the slowdown on Warriors, and focusing the rest of your character more.
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There is no secondary that covers up all the weaknesses. There's is no impenetrable character with only 8 skills. But if you can target both fighters and healers, your going to be a good asset to a team.|
Originally Posted by Jackell
Stop a monk from healing, drop an elementalist in mid spell, and take down the big men like a ton of bricks.
First off, there's nothing in either the Ranger or Mesmer lines that will seriously hose Warriors. Lay the smackdown on casters? Sure. But you're not going to be more than a mild annoyance to a Warrior. What are you going to run, high level Sympathetic Visage? Please.
Second, you're trying to do everything with one character and that's simply a recipe for disaster. Well built PvP characters are specialists and are hardened to get around the various hate they'll encounter. You think a Warrior that's built to fight through the hardest Necromancer shutdown being thrown at them is going to be more than mildly annoyed by some mid-level Mesmer hate? You think a Monk that's used to playing around level 16 Backfires and Power Leaks is going to fear an opponent who's only half as effective? Trying to have a tool for everyone gives you a toolset that's effective against no one. Peace, -CxE
Jackell
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Originally Posted by Ensign
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But why divide your already stretched attributes thinner to use some admittedly sub-par Warrior hate? Why are you making yourself worse at a job that you are rather good at to try and do a job that half of the other people on your team can do better?|
What are you going to run, high level Sympathetic Visage? Please.
Let's not get condensending to each other on this man. I don't know if I sounded that way, I didn't mean to, let's keep this clean of that. The mesmer has skills to target a warrior, yes. Their not as powerful as a necromancer, yes. But in GvG and the tombs, your hardly ever going to be in a one on one. You take the lead role in taking down casters, and play as support for taking the warriors, and even the slightest "warrior annoyance" can assist your team in taking them down fast. One more pain in the ass to think about can make a major difference. Quote:
That was never in question. The question is 'how is your team going to address Warriors?' There are plenty of solid solutions to Warriors that don't take up much space - the aformentioned Enfeebling Blood + Shadow of Fear, Elementalist Wards like Ward Against Melee and Ward Against Foes, Ranger Traps, Blurred Vision and other blindness effects, snares - the list is rather long.
The point, however, is that Mesmer skills are nowhere near the top of that list. There are a couple skills that are ok for self defense (Distortion, Sympathetic Visage) that I'd seriously consider for dueling, and a couple other niche skills that I'd consider running if they were in attribute (Spirit Shackles to fight off Rangers), but those are skills that you'll run because you're already in those attributes for much better reasons, and are just splashing them because they're effective and can 'pitch in'. If you seriously want to have an effect on blunting the enemy's physical offense, though, the Mesmer is not the class you're looking for. Quote: |
, as a matter of fact my name is based on the starcraft Ghost. If you're already playing a heavy energy denial Ranger/Mesmer with Energy Drain and the like, I can understand grabbing Spirit Shackles to slap onto a Barrager on their team. In Illusion for Arcane Conundrum to help with interrupts? There's nothing wrong with grabbing Sympathetic Visage to drop on a key target during a lull.
But both of these are what you said - support in handling Warriors. You're still going to need some of the serious hate mentioned earlier if you want a real solution. Which is why saying that Mesmers can 'shut down Warriors' is delusive at best.
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You make it sound like once the casters are done you may as well use /sit.
Well, once all their casters are down you're pretty much just doing mop-up duty. "Good during mop-up" isn't exactly a stellar selling point for a character or skill. You don't want to just /sit, but mop up doesn't require any special tactics or planning. You're a Ranger, you have a bow, just hammer on remaining targets with that until they drop or get away. The only character that should be standing around doing nothing is the Mesmer, and he should be watching for guys trying to ninja-res to interrupt, running another flag up, or something along those lines.
[Quote The question is 'how is your team going to address Warriors?' [/Quote]
That's always the question. And having a skill that can change a combo from Caster destruction to Warrior support can assist your team. A GvG is a group effort, and your Guild should know what your capable of. A small assist from someone can change a stragety to make it more effective, and possibly free someone up to persue other aspects, instead of possible overkill. On reading my first post here, I did make it sound like a R/M could lay a good ol spanking to a warrior, and that is wrong. But a R/M is not going to be worthless against Warriors as they had been being made out to be.
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The point, however, is that Mesmer skills are nowhere near the top of that list. ... the Mesmer is not the class you're looking for. *shortened to not take up too much room
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And how is a Ranger who can take down casters and also give support against Warriors not versatile?|
Originally Posted by Jackell
Once people stop playing around with the different combinations, is when the new combos stop getting discovered.
I don't think we're in any danger of that happening - those who want to be unique vastly outnumber those who want to win. That said, from a competitive standpoint, it is vital to understand the benchmarks, what they run and why. Tech does not grow in a vacuum, it feeds upon itself, grows in directions dictated by what else is being played in the environment. If you don't understand what has already been done, you're just going to fall into the same traps over and over again.
If you're going to design a primary Necromancer, you need to be familiar with the knocks on that class, the known issues and weaknesses it has. You should be prepared to explain why that character should be run as a primary and not a secondary - you need to have a good answer to why it should be run over another nuker or healer or other comparable class. If you're going to design a Ranger/Mesmer that carries Mesmer based Warrior hate, your build description should be accompanied by a paragraph explaining why it should be run over a traditional Pin Down / Barbed Trap / Shadow of Fear guy. In short, you need to be able to explain what a given build or skill offers that others don't, what's particularly innovative about it, and why we shouldn't lump it in with hundreds of other builds that have failed for well known and understood reasons. That's how tech advances. If you can't answer those questions you need to think about your build more, or study the benchmarks until you can. Peace, -CxE
walder
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Originally Posted by Auh
Wouldn't Weaken Armor be useful for a R/N?
I tend to use Penetrating Attack with my Ranger builds, so Weaken Armor isn't the best route for me. When I was using Power Shot back in the day I used Weaken Armor. Now I find alternatives such as SoF, Enfeebling Blood, Rend, and I still have to try out Rigor Mortis.
Jackell
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Nor did I say that there was - merely that a 'versatile' character is going to have a secondary that shores up weaknesses, one that allows him to be more useful in more situations, not one that makes him better at what he already does. There is certainly nothing wrong with characters that just do a couple of things very well - but don't mistake that for versatility.
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[Quote The question is 'how is your team going to address Warriors?' [/Quote]
That's always the question. And having a skill that can change a combo from Caster destruction to Warrior support can assist your team. A GvG is a group effort, and your Guild should know what your capable of. A small assist from someone can change a stragety to make it more effective, and possibly free someone up to persue other aspects, instead of possible overkill. On reading my first post here, I did make it sound like a R/M could lay a good ol spanking to a warrior, and that is wrong. But a R/M is not going to be worthless against Warriors as they had been being made out to be.
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Quote: But why divide your already stretched attributes thinner to use some admittedly sub-par Warrior hate? Why are you making yourself worse at a job that you are rather good at to try and do a job that half of the other people on your team can do better? Because one skill to assist when the rest are aimed at casters isn't going to be the end of the world. Especially when the attributes are already there.
Quote: But both of these are what you said - support in handling Warriors. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Quote: You're still going to need some of the serious hate mentioned earlier if you want a real solution. Which is why saying that Mesmers can 'shut down Warriors' is delusive at best. That is agreed, and I did use the wrong wording there. What I'm trying to say is that R/M's are not completly worthless against Melee's as has been stated, and in trying to say that, I got caught up and made them seem better than they are. But they are not that worthless.
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Well, once all their casters are down you're pretty much just doing mop-up duty. "Good during mop-up" isn't exactly a stellar selling point for a character or skill. ...lines.
Yes, once all the casters are done, it's mop up. But during the fight, things don't always go according to plan, and I'm a big fan of having something to at least help turn the tides to your favor. There's a pesky warrior screwing everything up, and your team needs a little extra help in taking him down? That's where you come in. And that's not a rare situation, that can happen anytime your team is on the loosing end. Like I said, I'm a fan of having something to prepare for that. No one goes into a fight expecting to loose, but they have to have, even if it's just a small one, a preperation in case that happens. Quote:
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