A Consolidation of Community Suggestions to Improve GW -- Both PvP and PvE

Why have this thread?

As many of you know the last few days have been full of Anet flaming, disgust and hate. At least from a PvP players prospective I think most of this anger and angst is a result of many of the PvP oriented alpha testers leaving or being kicked out of the alpha (depending on who you ask). In addition, I feel that both the PvE and PvP community has become slightly frustrated with the lack of information flowing from Anet regarding our most pressing community concerns. Although Gaile and Alex post regularly across many of the fan-site forums their posts tend not to address the actual concerns people have. Perhaps it is too much to ask Anet to provide their opinions on certain large community issues but at the very least I would like to ensure that there is an easy place for Anet to become aware of what the community, both PvP and PvE is concerned about.

In that spirit I would like this thread to become a warehouse of the best ideas put out by the community in addition to the perceived pros and cons of each suggestion. I will be constantly and tirelessly updating this first post with new issues, concerns and opinions. Although I am without a doubt a PvP only player I will do my utmost best to ensure that this thread represents the opinions of the entire GW community, not just PvPers. If you feel that I’m not being sufficiently unbiased please call me out on it through a PM.

A Word of Warning:
This thread will be heavily moderated. Posts which do not contribute in anyway to the discussion at hand will be deleted without notice. I’d like to point out a few topics which we will NOT be covering in this thread.

• UAS: This topic has been beaten to death and Anet has made their position on this issue clear. For better or worse it is not going to happen. Let’s come up with some new suggestions instead. That being said I think one novel idea for UAS was presented which I haven't heard before so I'll be adding it to the list of suggestions.
• New Races/New Models/New Skills/New EA’s/Higher Level Cap etc.: I would like this thread to focus on fixing underlying game mechanic issues. Anet already knows that more artwork and EA’s is a good thing and they are currently working on them so let’s not badger them about it anymore.
• Flaming of ANY sort: As I said this thread will be heavily moderated so don’t even think about it.
• Agreeing With the Guy Above You: Please do not give 1-3 line “I agree with that guy” posts as they simply clutter the thread. Each new post should provide new ideas (either for or against any of the issues presented in this topic).

As I mentioned before I will be constantly updating this first page with new issues provided by the community. These are not just my ideas. I’ve simply cut and paste, consolidated and summarized. I will do my best to give credit to others where I can.

How to Respond/Help

As you will notice many of the sections are lacking good arguments both for and against. If you feel particularly strong about an issue, are a good writer, and can get your points across in a coherent and concise manner please free to post on a topic in favor or against given topics. Feel free to PM with an argument as well. Please note that not everyone’s argument will get a link so please don’t be upset if that happens. In addition, if you know of a post by Anet that provides some insight into their thoughts on the issues covered below please provide that link so I can update the "Anet's Thoughts" portions. Finally, everywhere you see “[Learn More]” is a place where I would like to link to a more in depth review of the suggestion or issue at hand. Please PM me your “[Learn More]” contributions or just post them in this thread. I will update the links as necessary.

Sec I. Skill Balancing Issues (Last Updated: Aug 4, 2005)

The following skills have serious balance issues. I think the PvP community in general agrees that these skills need to be balanced and this should definitely be a priority for Anet.

To start, a quote by Zrave on general skill balancing:

Unbalanced PvE Skills

1. Protective Bond: At 17 protection, Protective Bond becomes abusive in farming.
   • Learn more here – Argument For Balancing / Argument Against Balancing

Unbalanced PvP Skills

1. Nature's Renewal: Is absolutely abusive
   • Learn more here – Argument For Balancing / Argument Against Balancing
2. Fertile Season: Effects other spirits when it should not
   • Learn more here – Argument For Balancing / Argument Against Balancing
3. Ether Renewal + Zealot's Fire: Overpowered with only 1 counter
   • Learn more here – Argument For Balancing / Argument Against Balancing
4. Putrid Explosion: Degenerates into a button mashing frenzy
   • Learn more here – Argument For Balancing / Argument Against Balancing

• Anet’s Thoughts:
  • [Learn More] "We have been testing a variety of playbalance adjustments internally for some weeks now" ~James Phinney (State of the Game Address)
  • [Learn More] "Between ladder resets, we want to minimize balance changes ..." ~James Phinney (FF#54)

Sec II. Faction System Issues (Last Updated: Aug 11, 2005)

1. Insufficient Faction
   The amount of faction rewarded especially for “lower” levels of PvP (i.e., team arena) is prohibitively low.
   Suggestion [New! Learn More]: Increase faction reward amounts. (Argument provided by Wheel)
   Suggestion [Learn More]: Scale faction costs based on the number of unlocks already purchased through the faction system. (suggested by varyag)
2. PvE Requirement to the Faction System
   It is currently required to have an advanced PvE character to spend faction which seems to go against the intended purpose of the faction system which is to allow PvP players to unlock skills solely through PvP.
   Suggestion [Learn More|Argument Against]: Have a Priest of Balthazar with all skills and upgrades available at the guild hall and at the Tomb of Primeval Kings.
   Anet’s Thoughts: Unknown

Sec III. General Skill/Item Unlocking Issues (Last Updated: Aug 4, 2005)

1. Skill Unlocking Difficulty
   People seriously interested in PvP want to have all the options available instead of just what they need for one or two characters. The current system makes it incredibly tedious to unlock all skills and items for PvP.
   Suggestion [Learn More]: Bring back Skill Charms and the Skill Charm Trader (looking for an in depth and accurate description of the beta skill charm system)
   Suggestion: See Faction System Issues above
   Anet’s Thoughts: Unknown
2. Item Unlocking Difficulty
   Unlike PvP players who can selectively unlock items of their choosing, PvE players are pretty much left with the gamble that is random item drops. This makes it very difficult/expensive for PvE characters to compete equally in PvP since most PvP characters will have unlocked max modifiers through the faction system.
   Suggestion: [Learn More] Provide a system for PvE characters equivalent to the unlock items system available through faction for PvP players. (suggested by Tigris Of Gaul)
   Anet’s Thoughts: [Learn More] "... we mean to speed up the acquisition of items and skills" ~James Phinney (FF#54)

Sec IV. Guild Issues (Last Updated: Aug 4, 2005)

1. Robust Guild Statistics
   There is currently very little information available about guilds from both a PvP and PvE perspective. Since the game is centered around being in a guild this is definitely something that should be more robust.
   Suggestion [Learn More]: Provide a guild database with detailed stats about the guild. Include win and loss streaks, individual guild member information (number of kills, hours played, quests completed, flawless victories, rank, etc.),
   Anet’s Thoughts: [Learn More] " ... allow for much more extensive tracking and display of stats and various kinds of ladder rankings" ~James Phinney (FF#54)
2. Robust Guild Functionality
   There is currently very little functionality once you have a guild. There are very few options available to officers and guild leaders to help them manage their guild.
   Suggestion [Learn More]: Allow for community guild storage, guild titles, guild tithes, guild hall customization etc.
   Anet’s Thoughts:
   • [Learn More] "Additional guild features are quite high on our list of the enhancements we would like to add." ~Gaile
   • [Learn More] "... the next major guild feature to be added will most likely be the guild vault." ~James Phinney (FF#54)

Sec V. Smurf Guilds (Last Updated: Aug 4, 2005)

1. I personally consider this such a problem that I decided to make it a separate issue. As far as I can tell Smurf Guilds are a problem for 3 reasons.
   1. Once you reach the top of the ladder finding a worthy GvG opponent takes a very long time. Rather than sit around and wait for an opponent most guilds make a smurf guild and re-climb the ladder.
   2. Guilds try to protect their ladder record by GvGing in a smurf guild so as not to taint their real guilds reputation.
   3. There is currently no way to practice against your own guild members without a Smurf Guild.
   Suggestion [Learn More]: Create a system for inter guild PvP matches. This would essentially allow guilds to GvG against themselves.
   Suggestion [Learn More]: The issue of being unable to find a GvG match is more or less due to the inactivity of guilds doing GvG and there is no quick fix. A start would be a more robust ladder system which is publicized in game and more incentives to GvG (e.g., rank).
   Anet’s Thoughts:
   • [Learn More] "Guild storage and intra-guild combat or practice options are two features that are quite important to us, too." ~Gaile
   • [Learn More] "I'm sure you'll see guild practice areas ... " ~James Phinney (FF#54)

Sec VI. General PvE Issues (Last Updated: Aug 4, 2005)

1. Worlds at War System and the UW
   There seems to be a large problem involving an inability to access the UW area especially for European players due to the Worlds at War (WaW) system.
   Suggestion [Learn More]: Do away with the WaW system entirely. The WaW system as far as I can tell was developed to create a link between PvP and PvE. Unfortunately, it has turned out to be less than spectacular and new ideas are needed. PvE players should not be locked out of the only high level PvE area because their guild is unable to simultaneously field a team to win the HoH and a team to go into the UW when they win the halls.
   Anet’s Thoughts: Unknown
2. Auction House
   Currently it is nearly impossible to efficiently sell items in game. Due to the myriad of districts finding buyers for your goods takes way to long if it’s even possible. An auction house was something that was brought up early in beta and I believe Anet said they were working on it. Is this still the case? What is the status on this?
   Suggestion [Learn More]: Create a World of Warcraft style auction house.
   Anet’s Thoughts: Apprently discussed in fansite friday #53. Unfortunately the site hosting said FF is offline. This is what happens when you don't make all fansite friday's for guru
3. PvE Replayability
   GW PvE missions are an absolute blast to play through the first time. I think even most hardcore PvP players enjoyed them during the beta or at the beginning of retail. However, by the second, third or even fourth or fifth time, most of the missions begin to loose their appeal. Once this happens there is very little left in the game to do most notably for players not interested in PvP.
   Suggestion [Learn More]: Add a little excitement to PvE by incorporating some of what makes tombs and GvG so exciting for PvP players, dynamic enemies and unexpected confrontations.
   Anet’s Thoughts: Unknown

Sec VII. General PvP Issues (Last Updated: Aug 3, 2005)

1. Guild Training UAS
   There is currenlty no good way to practive PvP other than getting smashed in Tombs or loosing horribly in GvG (obviously that doesn't apply to everyone but I think it applies to the majority)
   Suggestion [Learn More]: Create a Guild Training UAS system which would allow access to all skills for practice purpose only (suggested by MSecorsky)
   Anet’s Thoughts: Unknown

Sec VIII. General Issues (Last Updated: Aug 11, 2005)

1. Player Drops
   Currently, if a team member drops while in the middle of tombs they are replaced with a henchman in the next map and a random player for team arena. There are no replacements for GvG and PvE Missions as far as I know. This system is hardly a solution especially in PvP and areas such as UW. In PvP having a team member drop is usually an automatic loss. This can be devastating in ranked GvG matches and tournaments and a huge nuisance in PvE missions. Anet attempted to address this issue by having a henchman take the players spot in certain situations but this is an unacceptable stop gap measure. Anet has been well aware of this problem from the alpha but has yet to implement a viable solution.
   Suggestion [New! Learn More]: Allow players that get disconnected to rejoin matches within a certain amount of time. Players would have to rejoin with the same skills and stats as when they dropped to prevent teams from purposefully quitting out to make in-mission skill changes.
   Anet’s Thoughts: Unknown
2. Observer Mode
   You can read about the planned Observer Mode here (Can someone help me out with a link thanks!). Observer mode would go a long way in injecting some excitement back in PvP. It would also provide a way for guilds to watch “the best” and learn new tactics and styles of play. In general, Observer mode would be a huge boost to everyone in the game. Hopefully Anet is still working hard on it.
   Anet’s Thoughts: [Learn More] "We are looking forward to unveiling Observer Mode a short while after the changes we mentioned above." ~James Phinney (State of the Game Address)
3. Party Formation (Both PvP and PvE)
   Currently, it can be very difficult for players to form parties for both PvE missions and PvP areas. This problem is especially true in high level PvE areas such as UW and Fissure which have no henchman available and Tombs PvP combat where henchman teams stand no chance against even mediocre player based teams. The problem is exasperated by GW's district instancing system which can mean one district will have an overabundance of monks while another has none (or ranger, warriors, memsers etc.). It is clear that GW requires a more robust party formation system for both PvE and PvP.
   Suggestion
   Anet’s Thoughts:
   • [Learn More] "For party formation, I also like the 'local display/local search' idea ..." ~Gaile
   • [Learn More] " ... or to give some sort of sign that you are looking for a party" ~James Phinney (FF#54)

Sec VIIII. Notable Posts (Last Updated: Aug 11, 2005) New!

• This section will contain links to "notable" posts. Obviously this is a little subjective but I wanted to make certain posts easy to find. These will tend well written written posts which cover a variety of issues rather than just one topic.

1. "Hermited Gameplay, Replayability, The Economy, Healing Syndrome" ~Plague

Sec X. Almost a Bug (Last Updated: Aug 11, 2005) New!

• This section will be a listing of in-game issues which are borderline bugs. There really is no excuse on Anet's part for not fixing these immediately.

1. [Learn More] Misleading descriptions on skills and items.
2. [Learn More] Edge of Extinction having an effect at the end of Hall of Hero matches killing off the winning team and making it impossible to retrieve the sigils.
3. [Learn More] Resurrection Orbs bringing dead spirits back to life when dropped on Dais maps.

Important: A few people have already replied with something along the lines of "I disagree/agree .... " followed by a few lines of incomprehensible garble. Please remember that this post addresses a plethora of issues and you need to be very specific if you're going to address any of them. Finally, we will be deleting incomprehensible garble from this thread in an effort to keep it on track so if you're going to post please take the time to make them meaningful and understandable. Posts of encouragement are appreciated but will probably be removed since they don't add anything to the discussion. PM's would be more appropriate for things like that. If you think your post is getting unfairly deleted PM me and I'll look into it for you. Thanks again!

Please allow me to touch on the UAS one time... having that feature available in a guild training area would allow for people to train with all skills available but would still require people go out and unlock the skills for real combat. This covers a couple pre-hashed things... the guild training area and the means to train newer folks (like me) with good, complete builds as well as encourages performing the actions required to unlock specific skills necessary for the desired build once perfected.

Faction System Issues:

The prices are too high for the casual gamers to unlock a sufficient amount of skills through the Arena/Tombs to enter into GvG with a planned team build.

Solution:

Faction prices should start very low and climb the more of a particular type that you unlock. (Keep a separate counter for elites, skills, upgrades, runes.)

This should be balance in a way so that the total price for unlocking everything through faction would be halved.

Example: Start with Elite Skill price of 300 and add 30 for every new elite unlocked.

Estimate: This will allow those with the least faction and elites unlocked the most access to unlocking them - thus creating better competition. As result, more guilds will be ready for GvG and the waiting time for a match will be significantly reduced, increasing the faction gain throughout the ladder.

____________________________________________

Sec VII. General PvP Issues:

The Hall of Heroes map in ToPK Tournament promotes defensive gameplay, and/or double-teaming. It should instead promote offensive gameplay, or a diverse one.

Solution 1: Make the HoH an 8v8 only map that promotes a confrontation (close quarters, no defensive bonuses). Shorten the round to 15 minutes with victory condition being total elimination or most kills at the end of the round. Optional 5 minute breaks in between rounds.

Solution 2: Make the HoH 8v8 only and rotate different map types. King of the Hill, Team Deathmatch, CTF, etc. Make all maps limited and balanced for 15 minute matches.

Estimate: This will promote offensive or balanced teams over the current trend to develop a total defence. The second solution is preferred because it prevents over-focusing of builds. Changing the HoH into a short-fight 8v8 map will revitilize the entire tournament and promote competative gaming.
__________________________________________

Here are the original posts and community response/debate of these suggestions:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=40813
http://www.guild-hall.net/forum/showthread.php?t=24033
__________________________________________

I apploud your efforts for a constructive discussion and wish it is maintained in this fashion and noticed by the game's developers.

I find the idea of "unbalanced PvE Skill" to be... interesting. Protective Bonds is very powerful, but at a huge cost. In order to truly use it for conquest requires that you use another 4 slots (at least) to deal with its consequences, and even then you need to truly work things in an odd manner (12 Protection Paryers, a hat, and a +1 icon) to even get the bennifits, and it severly limits your damage potential.

However, who does it hurt? It's a joke in PvP, and in PvE the mobs are there to die, so I'm not sure that it's in any way un-balanced.

As for the other suggestion, I'd like to say that the Training area, via Guild Hall would be a truly useful addition. The basic premmis that people can try builds, and then go cap the skills they need, rather than having to grab everything to be competative could be the thing that keeps the PvP only people from giving up on the game entirely. Plus it will breed a new level of better player since people can practice without the randomness of Tombs or the Arenas. I'm not seeing any downside except the time taken to implement it.

I would really like to see a faction system that did (for team and random areanas):

First 5 matches: 2+ faction per first kill, 10 per win, 2+ for flawless, 20 for 5th win
Matches 5-10: 3+ faction per first kill, 12 per win, 4+ for flawless, 30 for 10th win
Matches 10-15: 4+ faction per first kill, 14 per win, 6+ for flawless, 40 for 15th win.

And so on according to this pattern.

Perhaps this isn't enough, but I think of it as a long step from the current system.

I still believe there is future for the WaW system. Dont get rid of it. But change the real life reference and balance the factions.

ingame fractions -> could be balanced because they have no reference to the amount of people playing in the real life fractions.

-> no more racism or nationalism

-> balance could be done by adding quest wich take some time like the one from the scripe in ascalon. So noone could just change for quick favour but could change the fraction every time he wants (not only five times)

As i mentioned here :
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...299#post141299

there should be more information about hexes and enchantments.

Very good points and I agree with many of your views.

My only complaint addition would be to the PvE side. I think the shortage of monks is a huge problem, especially for people wanting to go to the Underworld/Fissure.

My solution would be in two parts, the first would be to allow hench in the underworld/fissure. I'm not sure why they didn't Hench just like they are would do alright in my humble opinion.

The second would be to have options with the hench. For instance Lina is a protection monk. She brings some great skills that I like but she doesn't even touch on many I think are important. I think that hench should have a window much like the merchants where the group leader could set the skills the henchmen would take.

I understand that it would be a difficult programming challenge but I've seen a number of people log off in disgust after sitting for half an hour waiting for a real monk. They've already tested an 8 skill set with all the hench so they have experience with the programming.

Please don't say that you can do all the missions with henchmen, believe me I know it because I've done them all with hench. Many can do it but not all, and you can't take them to UW/FoW.

It is a problem, if you don't believe me go to any mission area after Sanctum Cay and listen to the pleading going on for monks.

I'm not sure if we're allowed to post dissenting points on this thread but I'm against changing Tombs to 8v8. I want more complexity, not less. If we want to fight the problem of unfair teaming we should shut off the global chat in Tombs. I for one am dead set against the simplicity of a 1v1. If this isn't allowed I'll be glad to edit it out, I meant no argument, just my opinion on that.

Edit: I know an A-Net Rep has said that they're looking into having some kind of guild practice arena. I think that will become a reality in some form. I don't know about a UAS practice arena however, I've never seen that mentioned. I'll search for the thread and see if I can find it.

The only real issues I have is the moronic NPC (not henchman) AI that do incredible stupid things, (such as "Oh no, the Dwarves are attacking ... lets rush and try to kill then with bare fists"), the spawn and patrol points of mobs that put then right into a NPC path that gets killed before we have the chance to talk to then and also how enemies are aggro by such NPCs (like being aggro by a ghost).

Well and henchman and NPC levels that put then in danger of being killed (such as devona and company in the desert, they are simply too low level to go facing pairs of lv20 hydras).

I'm deleting posts that are not clear enough, based on my judgement. If you have a suggestion to make, make it as clear as possible, otherwise it will be deleted.

If you are not a native English speaker, or you have difficulty expressing your ideas clearly but have something important to add, please PM me or Sarus and we will gladly work out the idea with you.

Well, let's give a second suggestion a go and see if it sticks to the forum...

Guild Halls need stuff. Being a little more specific, everyone says that GHs need a communal storage and can agree on this. So, do so, but at a cost in Plats and supplies. Hypothetical numbers... for 50 slots of storage, 100K gold, 25K wood planks, 25K granite slabs. Another 50? 125K gold, 35K wood, 35K granite, 10K iron ingots. Dyes too, for painting.

Allow a few times, maybe for the 5th and last storage include ectos or something. Make it costly.

Other guild hall additions can be dreamt up as well at their own costs.

Say, their own Statue of Baathalzar?

You now have massive gold/material sinks that will be used, GHs are more fun, and guilds have common goals to work towards.

On Nature's Renewal - This really needs balancing, heck, I use a spirit build in GvG and it's pretty obviously overpowered, and difficult to counter. Removing enchantments and hexes and making enchantments and hexes take longer to cast is something that most classes have no less than 2 skills to accomplish, and they generally don't have a 2-minute long effect either. This skill really needs a serious overhaul, I don't think a few tweaks would fix it. My suggestions for balancing it, with keeping the same overall effect, are - (1) shorten the lifetime of the spirit. Maybe something along the lines of 60 second (max) lifetime and a 60 second recycle time, then it would be more difficult to make a large buildup of these spirits in particular, and as such, they would be easier to target and kill. (2) It shouldn't remove hexes, this can make necromancers and mesmers quite useless in the fight, much more than is necessary. I can't really see a way of balancing that function without removing it all together. (3) Without that, it would still make enchantments and hexes take longer to cast, and it would still remain a potent spirit against casters, but without shutting them down all together.

On spirit spamming in general - (1)Fertile season shouldn't effect other spirits, plain and simple. (2)Spirits should be labeled as a neutral target or something, so they can be attacked, but can't be healed. Unfortunately, Heal Area would likely still effect them, so programming them to recieve no healing might be in order. (3)Oath Shot, Quickening Zephyr, and Serpent's Quickness I would also suggest have their effects removed from Nature Ritual type skills. (4)Though it might take some work, I would suggest implementing a feature into the game so that there can be no more than, say, 2-3 of any given spirit in an area. If a new spirit is recast, then the oldest spirit dies.

And that's about all I have to say about that

In regards to PvE, there are a few things that I personally think needs touching on:

• Henchmen only have around 5 skills at most. Why not give them the full 8? Even a few "useless" filler skills for the remaining 3 slots are better than 3 empty slots.
• Enchantments aren't only pointless in PvP now (thanks to Nature's Renewal), but they're practically pointless in PvE as well due to the large number of enemies that have the ability to shatter enchantments.
• Drops are an obvious issue that needs to be brought up. Don't make the players suffer because of the farmers. In fact, don't even make the farmers suffer. It only encourages them to farm more.
• A majority of the reward items given in quests are rather useless. Instead, I suggest a replacement for these items and give gold, dye, or runes. After all, upon receiving those reward items, I immediately sell them anyways. I can't imagine who'd actually use them with all these max damage fiery dragon swords and storm bows flying around in the trade channels.
• Droknar's armor in low level arenas have always been a problem. Same with elite skills for that matter. It not only imbalances many aspects of the arena, but it will either promote other newcomers to doing the same thing or turn away potential PvPers.

Here are some problems in regards to the guild hall:

• Lack of intra-guild PvP does make the guild halls less appealing. In fact, I've always wanted to be able to fight against my own guildies in a PvP match. The only way I can do that is if I randomly face them in the Team Arenas or the Tombs.
• The lack of guild storage does leave some problems. I personally don't mind the lack of it now, but that's mainly because I can give my guildies some of my items to hold on for me and expect them to give it back later. The real problem I have with the guild hall is, it just doesn't seem like it's worth the 60k I bought for it. Yes, it's a change in scenary and it let's us do GvG's, but is that all?

The PvP issues haven't pretty much all been stated so I won't state it again as it'll be pretty much beating a dead horse (though I do realize most of my suggestions have done the same). However, I would appreciate if other members from ANet do respond to some of these issues in a more technical sense rather than a hopeful sense like we see on Fansite Fridays.

PvE/Interface suggestions

1. Hench + Pet commands. The basic "all follow" , "all stay" , "all attack" would be sufficient [same set for pet].

2. Random Quest Generators , Morrowind Style to serve as an alternative to gain items+rewards. [Basically, various NPC Questmasters which rolls quests for the entire GW map, you pay per quest, you select difficulty, type etc etc]

3. Improve the Party-creation interface. Should have an interface listing all players in specified Outpost with their classes and their status [available for group or not]. From there direct ability to add/join a team. Opposite should also apply, ability to see all teams with their members [classes etc] and ability to join it from the interface [team can also have a status of open/closed etc]. Various filters/group by would be good too [i.e. filtering on Monks available for group only etc].

>> Similar interface for chatting/finding friends as well. I.e. I wouldn't mind at least seeing what classes my Guild-mates are.... classic "/whois " command.

The consequences of Protective Bond at 17 protection prayers are 1 energy lost per hit, and an upkeep of 1 energy every 3 seconds, which is not really significant enough to worry about. Balthazar's Spirit alone makes up for the energy loss per hit. Then you can take for instance Mending to make up for a practically arbitrary amount of damage inflicted upon you - and at this point we have a character that cannot be hurt other than by harsh enchantment removal or severe health degen.

Since we're speaking of a PvE environment, you can handpick the monsters you face, and this setup renders you immune to 90% of the encounters in Guild Wars, including those designed to be exceptionally challenging (UW, FoW), using just half the skills of one character (and the attribute investment into protection prayers can even be refunded after Protective Bond is put up, although most won't bother to do this - but armour switching is done frequently). Such a character can take the place of a team of four people having to work together to achieve the same result at much greater risk
It hurts passively. People can use this setup to solo places others can't, and although their damage output potential is crippled due to the investment required in their defense, they will get all the rewards of a certain place to themselves, which usually easily makes up for the slower killing speed.

Let's consider two monks who each want to gather ectoplasm. The first monk spends thirty minutes getting a good Underworld team going, then after two hours comes out with one glob of ectoplasm that fortunately was assigned to him. In those two and a half hours, the other monk made five quick trips into UW, carefully selecting optimal mobs to kill, which netted two ectoplasms. Let's say they both intended to sell the ectoplasm they found: the second monk can get the ectoplasm faster, so can accept a lower price for each find (given a constant demand), and the other is affected because the price for ectoplasm is lower than it would've been if they both used regular means of gathering ectoplasm. Now the first monk would be stupid -not- to use Protective Bond to achieve his goal, because he's stealing from his own pocket if he doesn't.

It hollows out PvE, providing players a build which is so much more succesful than other builds that it does not make sense to experiment much beyond this; it encourages making a monk specifically for this sort of solo'ing. Another part of the problem is that monks also happen to have the abusively good Zealot's Fire/Divine Boon combo at their disposal, which leaves most other classes in the dust when it comes to farming potential.

Through Protective Bond, hardcore farmers (who make monks specifically for this sort of solo'ing - check the superior rune prices compared to two weeks ago for a clear indication of the issue) get an even greater advantage over casual players, earning them money and items substantially faster, so basically the abusiveness of Protective Bond (and Zealot's Fire/Ether Renewal similarly, although those have ramifications for PvP as well) leads to casual players getting shafted. One skill being better than the other for solo'ing in certain places does this by nature, but Protective Bond abuse is such a broadly effective and brainless method that I feel the game would improve from toning the effectiveness of the damage reduction down.

I've written a suggestion how to adjust Protective Bond without it affecting its general effectiveness over a month ago, and I hope ArenaNet will address the issues somehow before even more people give up trying to use teamwork to achieve PvE goals and simply use monks for solo'ing.

1. Protective Bond: The skill itself isn't really that over powered, it is the combination of skills, runes, items, and other things that make it this way. If you stack every superior rune possible, and use a weapon that lowers your max health, any damage you take while prot bond is up is easily healed by mending and healing breeze (except degen more to follow). Coupled with essense bond, Balth's spirit, and a +1 20% prot offhand, it is possible to lower the skill's energy degen per hit to 1. With essence and balth's on you actually gain energy while taking damage, and the damage like said before is easily counterable. Since you are using every superior rune your damage output and healing capacity is also not nerfed. You can pretty much tank and kill any mob in the game that is not degen based or enchantment removal based with this skill combination. You can also use Bonetti's defense since you can wand targets and gain adrenaline. With these combos you can have unlimited energy, and tank anything in the game.

Possible Solutions: At the bare minimum, remove the ability to wand targets and gain adrenaline. This will prevent the majority of the solo farming in UW. That still leaves the problem of using skill combinations to abuse prot bond. The easiest counter is to just base prot bond on the hp total of the base of any character in the game before runes and any other health modifiers. The skill will still be useful in the way it was intended to be, and will prevent the current exploit situations.

2. Putrid explosion: There are actually 2 problems here. One, the fastest person who jams the button wins. This also does not take into account the macros and gamepad exploits that give even more of an edge to certain players. The other problem is that putrid severely limits a necros ability to use the majority of his other skills. Wells and minions are out of the question for fear of another team's necro using putrid.

Possible Solution: Apply a cast timer on par with the other necro spells to allow more diversity. Putrid can now be interupted. Wells and minions become viable again because corpses aren't instantly taken up by putrid. Another possible solution is to make it an elite. I don't think this is a good one though, but it will severely make a necro decide what he is going to bring compared to a lot of other useful elites.

3. Ether renewal + Zealots fire combo AND infuse health: Unlimited energy and constant damage. I included infuse health into this combo also because ether renewal + some enchantments + infuse health = no penalty to the caster and obvious healing benefits to the team.

Possible Solution: At the bare minimum, double the cast time on ether renewal. It can still be used as a possible way to get a caster out of mana trouble, but nothing that will allow him to poor huge amounts of damage or healing onto a target. Also, it might be a good idea to remove the healing component out of ether renewal altogether. This will solve the farming problems, and the infuse health problem.

4. Spirits: They are healable, spammable, and block other players. Spirits spammers have obvious advantages in maps with choke points. Spirits can be spammed to prevent a team at ever getting to their relic, or can even be used to the extreme of building a wall between a team's monks and damage dealers.

Possible Solutions: Remove fertile season's +health modifier on spirits. Remove the capability to heal spirits altogether. Remove the ability to completely block off choke points using spirits (the stairs on a relic map for instance).

I don't think prot bond is a skill that needs to be nerfed, there are too many enchant removers in the game to make it a skill that is good enough to tank with. You can still solo by using a smite skill, nobody uses bonettis anymore. Plus, you will get adrenaline from the balths spirit already. Your second solution could work, but i dont see why someone would use bond instead of spirit.

Unbalanced PvE Skills:

Protective Bond: At 17 protection, Protective Bond becomes abusive in farming.

I could make the same argument for Cyclone Axe and Live Vicariously, or any of the pbAoE with mistform and mesmer echos, but i won't, because we arent looking at the root of the problem.

UW currently drops very little. The main advantage to it in my opinion are quests. Gaining ecto and selling them for a lower market rate doesn't actually hurt anyone, since it allows more people to actually USE the ecto. Needing 15 to get a helm for a minor change in appearance means that ecto isn't game making or breaking: its cute, that's it.

My question is, why are people being forced to farm? I know that when I farm, which is rarely enought, its because i'm waiting for people in my guild to get ready for our GvG or a run in tombs. People are being forced to farm for no reason: they like the high end looks, and are ready to invest hours in order to look cool. If anything, I'd blame botters for glut in gold and the lack of quality gold items. If PvE is so fragile that one skill is singlehandedly ruining the economy, then perhaps the economy itself should be looked at.

Why don't you guarantee 2 gold drops per high end map for every person in the party? It would encourage killing mobs, and it would also promote group farming/hunting, since the rewards wouldn't be lessened due to having party members. I know that i can solo UW's smites, but i also know that with a skilled group, i can clear it out a LOT faster. If said group and solo party obtained roughly the same amount of high end items, it would be logical for me to party up.

Prot bond isn't the problem here. It never has been. Its not abusive (when have you seen that ultimate prot bond build in pvp?). Nor is the 17 prot bond incredibly broken. Its a defensive skill, and a good one, but should we revamp the way PvE gives benefits, it won't be neccesary.

For PvP:

Aquisition of resources for even playing field:
-Add UAS button for PvP characters. (leave it as a button so PvEers can somehow get a small amount of accomplishment?)
-Whenever a character, PvP, or RP enters a PvP area, all skills are unlocked temporarily.
-Remove Refund Points. Everyone thinks they're annoying.
-Either have a UAUnlocks button, or keep faction only for unlocking runes and upgrades.

Without UAS, there is no true competition. With UAS, I could go to the tombs, pick up a PUG of randoms, and have a team build in seconds. We went to and won the Hall of Heroes this way several times, and had a blast. Without it, only organized guilds using TS will ever win. What are the chances that 8 random people will have all the propper skills for every imaginable team build? Zero. That's not fun.
Quit making us do arbitrary tasks to compete. As for as I can tell, the only complaint about UAS is that it would disadvantage PvE characters. That is easily fixed by the common solution of UAS while in a PvP area.
(It's been beaten to death. And we still haven't seen an actual response to why it's not in. So I'm going to beat it until I get one.)

Fixing the PvP environment:
-Remove most, if not all, of the NPC's from GvG combat. Battles should not be decided by who can camp by their Guild Lord, Arcanists, and Archers the longest.
-Fix several of the tombs maps: All King of The Hill maps are obscenely unfair, including the Hall of Heroes. Burial Mounds is a gank fest.
-Start balancing again. We all said Guild Wars was the most balanced game on the web back during beta... that was when you were still balancing it. You stopped half way. We shouldn't have to deal with cookie cutter builds of the month to compete.


For PvE:

The Economy:
-I don't know what happened, to tell you the truth. Drops got nerfed, prices skyrocketted... er... fix it?
-Auction House: Been asked for for ages. It's painful to enter Lions Arch, let alone try to buy and sell stuff.

Content:
-Finish up Sorrow's Furnace and Grenth's Footprints.
-Create some sort of reward for playing longer. Whatever these rewards are, it really doesn't matter as long as they are kept out of competition. The monsters aren't going to cry imbalance. If you can find a 50 damage sword that looks like a light sabre, I don't care, just as long as I, or anyone else, never see it in a PvP area.
-Make something that doesn't get old as fast. The second I explore an area thoroughly, I don't feel like going back into it. Make some sort of randomly generated instance that is different every time, with different monsters, different areas, different chests, and so on. Try an 'Art of Defense' style map where a team is positioned in the middle of an enemy assault, but it doesn't stop. It just gets harder and harder until you are defeated. You could even make a ladder for this sort of thing.
-Remove Worlds At War. Whoever was responsible for this idea needs to get fired for short sightedness.

What a great idea rewarding PvEers with PvP advantages. Fix it so we have 2 seperate, independant, and fun games, rather than 1 crappy unbalanced one.

Regarding Protective Bond and PvE. The core of this problem is not with the spell , or even the combination of spells, it's the overall mechanism used to gain rewards/items.

Solution 1: Change the system not to be reliant on "solo farming" to get the best rewards. Simple as that. In fact make that, change/improve the system not to force ANY "farming" to gain rewards.

Suggestion 1.1 : Create a system that do not reward for large amount of kills, but rather on task completions [i.e. quests]. This itself will force players to fight a wide array of mobs [and not just specific farming mobs], INCLUDING mobs using protective bond themselves in the same way

Suggestion 1.2 : DnD Online already mentioned a system of "each member gets their own personal pull from a chest, not just a random member" . Instead of having random drops for a random party member, improve the system to give players their own share per chest/kill , making it more useful to be in a team than solo'ing in terms of SPEED of drops. Think WHY people are solo'ing and work backwards to what GW is about.

Solution 2: Open the playing field for rewards/drops based on a combination of
(a) Speed of killing
(b) Hits taken/ Hits Prevented
(c) Hits landed [melee/spells]
(d) Damage taken / Damage inflicted
(e) Number of attackers vs number of defenders

Good job talking about topics we're going to address in this thread. Now for my advice...

The PvP faction system was designed so players could unlock skills, upgrades, and runes equally as they could in PvE. Many players hate playing through PvE more than once, so to them unlocking through PvP is the fun way.

The only problem is, when a player gets a certain amount of faction, he gets unlocks. The PvE player playing through the game doesn't get unlocks. he gets random runes and random modifiers. Let's say that it takes the same time to get 1000 faction as it does to find a blue armor. With that 1000 faction you are guarenteed to unlock a new minor; with a blue armor, are you guarenteed to unlock something new? What're the chances that you'll find a minor vigor for the 100th time?

If a PvE player gets a rare bow, he might get 2 new modifiers. Or he might get 1 modifier, which is still good. Or, he can get a modifier he already has. Let's say it takes the same amount of time for a PvE player to find a gold staff as it does for a PvP player to get 2000 faction. The PvE player finds an Insightful (+1) Staff of Defense (+1). The PvP player redeems for an Insightful (+1) and Defense (+1). Now, let's say the same situation happens again. Same time for each, except one has an unIDed gold staff and the other has 2k faction. The PvP player can go straight to Insightful (+5) and Defense (+5), while the PvE character may get +1s again, or may get better mods, but they're imperfect at +3 or +4.

I attribute this problem moreso to the actual game itself, and not any unlocking methods. Having mods with variables such as "+1-5," "+10-20%," etc. is just stupid for a game based on "skill over time played." Those variables do make a difference, however small, and just adds a problem that doesn't need to be there.

So the faction system far outweighs the PvE upgrade/rune unlocking system. It's not even close; the way at which a person unlocks weapon and rune upgrades through PvE will take five times as much time as if he/she had unlocked through PvP.

Now, in regards to skills, unless you're pulled in 500 Faction for each GvG win, it's better off to go through PvE, in the majority of cases. Yes, some elites are in far off places and it'd be easier to get 2k faction or whatever it is to unlock the elites. But for the most part, PvE has the better end in this section. In my opinion a much better end, which is another disparity.

Many PvPers are still unhappy with the faction system, and it's got to do with the prices to unlock skills. And I agree with them; it takes on average longer to unlock skills than in PvE, although some instances in elite skill capping are much longer in PvE. But if ArenaNet does lower the cost of skills, they should also introduce the idea of "unlocks" instead of armors/unIDed weapons in PvE. Right now the advantage PvE unlockers have is the skills, and the advantage PvP unlockers have is the items/runes. If PvPers want the costs for skills to go down, there should be unlocks in PvE to be paired along with that.

Now, regarding Factions effect on PvE characters: Weapons such as swords and shields are tilted slightly to the PvP-only characters, but hardly. They start out with 15% dmg while health > 50%, something than takes forever to find in PvE or costs a lot through trading. Occasionally PvE characters come out on top, like with 7 req. max AL shields, but that it's very rare that one of these comes out with the modifiers the PvP shields have. In terms of most upgrades, it's as easy to buy them for your PvE characters as it is to unlock for your PvP characters to use, except in the extreme cases: +5 Vampiric Bow Strings, +30 Fortitude mods, etc. Some of these aren't needed, but others are extremely costly to buy/trade for your PvE characters to use, while it's pretty easy to unlock through PvP. The main problem is outfitting your character with runes. It could take you 500 hours to find a superior Vigor in PvE (another major problem with the game), and it could cost you 50-100k to buy it for your PvE character. If you unlocked a Superior Vigor through PvP with a PvE character, you should be able to use it on your PvE character. Make the rune customized so that it couldn't be traded, to prevent sale into the PvE world.

CONCLUSION:
ArenaNet said Guild Wars was a game of skill over time played. Then why was it so hard for everyone to unlock the runes/items before the patch, and why is it still hard for PvErs to unlock the upper most items? If two teams of equal skill play each other, the team with the better items/unlocks wins. So my irritations with the game right now:

1. The unlocking in regards to items/runes is heavily favored towards the Faction system and is not equal. Faction gives definite unlocks in regards to upgrades and runes, while rune/weapon drops in PvE can yield the player no NEW upgrades or runes. If you're going to allow faction rewards choose what is unlocked next, have armor and weapon drops be "unlocks" as well. If an armor drops, have a place in the outposts where I can go to an NPC, give them my unIDed armor, and select which rune I want to unlock next. Same with unIDed weapons.
2. The skill unlocking is heavily favored towards the PvE unlocking system and is not equal. Decrease the costs for normal skills and elites. Maybe you could balance the cost of an elite to how hard it is to capture it in PvE, but hey, you made them tedious to get.
3. GET RID OF VARIANCE IN MODS. Items aren't supposed to be of great importance, so just have one value for each mod. There shouldn't be a range of +1-5 AL for the "Insightful" mod, there should just be +5 and it's done with. That'll drive down the insane prices people like to charge for "perfect" items. "Perfect" mods don't show skill, they show luck. If everything's the same, nobody would even look to eBay to get that "uber" sword, because it'd be readily available to them in game.
4. Allow PvE characters to get items unlocked, but make the runes and upgrades customizable. Maybe they'd be unable to salvage the runes out of their armors, or the rune itself once salvaged would be customized so nobody else but that character could use it. Treat the item unlocks like the pre-order items.
5. I'd suggest that the Guild Lord in GvG act like the Priest in Tombs. Once he's killed, the team stops ressing, but you need to kill the team and their Guild Lord to win. That would stop ganking. But hey, if they had the important skills and runes unlocked, they wouldn't need to look for the "fastest" way.

My opinion differs from STINGER in many ways regarding the PvP unlocking system. I think it's a good option for those who don't want to play PvE, and I can understand that because I dread leveling up characters and capping skills. I would like, however, for it to be equal with PvE, and that means tweaking on both sides. I don't agree with STINGER that it exclude the guilds below 1500, because although they can unlock 2.5 times faster than the lower guilds, eventually they won't need faction and they can help create a competitive atmosphere. Other guild will eventually get there as well. I do think, however, that many people should've looked past the 'Unlock All Skills' button they had in the BWEs and they should've realized that they were going to have to unlock at retail. ArenaNet has improved some of their unlocking in the way they changed Signet of Capture to work, but their nerfing of farming spots is in my opinion ridiculous in worsening an already bad state. At that point, farming was still preparing for PvP which ArenaNet said wouldn't be in the game, but killing Riverside and co. made it a hell of a lot worse.

Of course, there's always the matter of making PvE actually interesting to play more than once, and the damn annoyance that FedEx quests add.

When I first played this game, I always thought that I would level up my three characters to cover a warrior, monk, and an mesmer, and then use my 4th slot to make PvP characters for slots I didn't usually play. I wanted to be out there with my personally dyed armor, and unique weapons, etc. Then i completed PvE with my first character.

I didn't want to do it again. In fact, I dreaded unlocking the skills. But understand there are people who want to PvP with their RP characters and be competitive. I understand that there are people who want to use PvP characters, but would rather unlock through PvE. I also understand that there are people who would want to unlock through PvP and not touch the PvE part of the game. Old Ascalon is terribly boring, and probably the worst area in the whole game.

Maybe finding random items is part of the RP experience. But in that case, why does it have to be the same random item as before? If there are 25 runes, and I randomly unlock 1, then if it's going to HAVE to be truly random, then the next time I get a rune, it should be one of the 24. Then 23, 22, etc. and so on.

Why do we keep getting shitty items as quest rewards? Would it not be better to get runes and item upgrades we can actually use? I'm tired of doing quests and getting my 3rd or 4th Divine Foci when I'm a E/Me. Give me a minor rune of my choice for the lower quest rewards. You do it for collector's items. Go out, find 5 Minotaur Horns, and when you go to the collector they'll give you options.

For example, when I go to the collector Kelsay Pradist (aG respresent!), the collector asks me if I want the sword, the shield, foci, etc. Well let's let the collectors deal with those type of items. If I have to go deliver some package to a guy in a swamp, I don't want a god damn +6 energy item, I want a choice of runes or upgrades I actually desire. You'd unlock through this system too.

On thoughts on PvE, how about monsters 5 levels below you will not aggro you? It's a pain in the ass running somewhere while 40 billion Hulking Elementals decide it'd be fun to play tag. And when an item drops, how about have a message that says "Do you want to pick up this item?" If the user says yes, it's placed in it's inventory if there's enough room. If the user says no, anyone can pick it up. People shouldn't have to pick up an item and then drop it so someone else can have it, and if a monster is camping on a hill and drops a rare Giant's Boot, I don't want to travel for 10 minutes picking the damn thing up.

that means the only people that get the drops are the main damage dealers, not the support classes.

Please delete my post if i break thread rules, or it is allready said. But it is late and i'm tired right now. So i make it short:
a chatwindow for allied guilds would be great.

how implemented?
well, i can imagine a sort list like friendlist, but for guildleaders only. The Guildleader can invite another to the list. On acceptence by the other guildleader, the friendshipbond is established.
People chatting in the chatwindow for allied guilds will be displayed as:

[guildtag]Name: message

what good would such a feature do?
There are various reasons. Guilds are clubs of likeminded players. Some guilds have the same mindsetting. Would you rather have a PUG, or team up with likeminded guilds you come across? i'll opt for no.2 if possible. A merger of these guilds is often out of the question. The guilds are proud of themselves, and want to keep their own cape/name. For this reason, various small guilds still exist probably.

Another issue are big guilds. My guilld was forced to set up a sisterguild shortly after release due to the sheer number of players. Communications are forced through Teamspeak or Ventrillio. Not everyone is able to communicate this way. It cripples communications this way.

A third reason maybe can maybe found in PvP. A part of tombs/HoH seems to be the 2 vs the strongest team. Another part is the Worlds at War. Teaming up with that other team that defends your worldpart by quickly establishing allied guilds? well, maybe that really will cause worlds at war.... (and maybe disadvantage Europe?) This third point should be approached with care.

Hate to drag off topic. But I have to respond...

Saying "just don't talk about UAS" is stupid... Yes, we've got an official response saying no. But until we get an official response saying why that can't be easily revolved (see other suggestions I made), then I'm just going to assume that A.Net doesn't know about it yet, and keep suggesting it. Using an alternative when your primary solution has not been disproved for a valid reason is ignorant.

I'd just like to point out that pretty much everything with the exception of faction unlocked mods are easily obtainable via collectors. Items with 15>50 aren't rare. Gold items with 15>50 are, and they're a status symbol. I don't mind using my collector's healing ankh, or my collector's holy wand, because they're just as good as the PvP items, because they ARE the pvp items without the word PvP in their names.

Total UAS makes all of PvE optional and lets people who have never played the game before walk into tombs, set up a build, then flunk out horribly. Skill doesn't mean everything is given to you on a platter. I'd support an alternative unlocking system, but UAS totally takes the carrot out of PvE playing for me.

I agree.

And I'd like to suggest a way to do that. Many quests in UW/FoW end with a chest appearing. Rather than having one or two items drop that are randomly assigned, have an item drop for everyone in the party. That way you get the same great reward for either doing it alone or in a group.

I'd rather not see that happen. It's only a matter of time until the equation is (at least in part) determined, at which point people change their character class from the most useful/fun to the farmable build (again). Let's say I know as a monk that healing is a factor, now I'm going to start wasting energy in battles healing people when they're full and fighting with the other monks over who can cast their spells on the guy who just got nicked fastest. I don't think this will lead to productive team play, rather I think it will make PuGs much much worse.

But as an aside, I think that changing the reward system is the way to go. So long as it's profitable at all to go out alone, people will do it. If you get the same rewards if you're alone or with a group, most people will try and tag along with a group since it would (probably) be easier than going out alone. Plus those people who are interested in the challenge of solo farming can still feel free too (but there's no reason to do it outside of the challenge).

-Diomedes

I don't mind using collector's items at all either. But as of right now, if I want to have a sword with 15% more damage while my health is above 50%, I have to find the damn thing or pay for it. No collector has it.

But my main point is, why do Guild Wars have variance in mods anyway? For a game where items are supposed to matter, why should a 10% damage while enchanted hammer drop when you can 15% ones? Why do people get to charge obscene amounts for +30 mods, +5/-1 mods, etc.? Because however slightly, those increases matter, and you shouldn't have that. Just make everything uniform and let people spend more money for aesthetic reasons.

Having a +15% sword drop while a +10% sword can drop is like having every one out of a 1000 armors that are crafted have better mods than the others.

EDIT: In regards to skills...
Zealot's Fire should be looked at. Enchant removal should be buffed.
The hammer line is pretty narrow...

Also, anything outside of Gladiator's Armor, Knight's Boots, and Stonefist Gauntlets is pretty much useless. Why not make the other sets more appealing?

actually, i get a rather large amount of 13 and 14 % >50 swords. The extra 1% isn't really a huge issue to me. The issue is, really if you're willing to pay for the 1%, which is fairly aesthetic.

This takes away another carrot in PvE. I personally like finding better items and upgrading. The differences, as you've said aren't huge, so i can live with a +19% enchant wrapping vs. a 20 one and keep my money.

It's not aesthetic. 15k armor will never give you an edge. 1% will.

Would you feel comfortable knowing that your Orison healed for 3 less than another player's Orison at the same level? What about knowing that Droknar's just crafted you an armor that's 59 AL, and not 60?

You want better items through PvP, you have them with weapon damages and shield ALs. You may say taking variance away from mods takes a "carrot" away from PvE, but it only helps that player who wishes to PvP with this RP character...

What exactly is wrong with having pride in your country? In PvP it matters the most. When you're going against say Korea, you beat em' shouting USA,USA,USA, A-OK. Nothin' wrong with that. I agree on the fact of no racisim. But you should reconsider the nationalism thing.

The edge of 1% is around equal to the edge people can get by making their character models larger or smaller in order to make them more difficult to see or more blocky to distract more. Honestly, in game terms a warrior deals ~70dps if conditions are perfect. This changes to 69.3dps with 1% less. Not a huge change. Perfectly viable either way. You CAN pvp with a +14%>50 weapon. It isn't going to kill you. Even the most spikey attack in the game, chain lightning, goes from 162 to 160.32.

With overhealing monks and no bonus for overkilling someone, i don't see why you're saying that the difference in dmg that 1% makes is huge. If you want to PvP with your RP character, you already can. The greatest obstacle to doing so is attribute points and buying new armors.

More to the point, the classes which need to change most radically in order to suit builds already have their items available in the collectors.

If my orison was healing 297 vs. 300, i wouldn't mind too much, no. Now.. if only my orison could heal 300 dmg...

I'm not saying the difference is huge. I'm saying there's a difference.

Exact same builds fight against each other. Equally skilled, equal in skills.
One team's items are perfect, the other team's is not. Who wins?

Many of these mods are perfectly fine without variation. Zealous works fine. None of the lengthen duration mods need variation. Why do +%, +AL, +life need variation?

You're right. I overspoke.
It actually might not happen in PvE. I don't play PvE enough to know. Maybe if you're in an EA and someone drops, then you zone into a new EA you get a henchman replace the dropped player. I just assumed it did . I know in tombs you get the henchmen. In GvG you get nothing. In arena you get a random new player who comes from the random arena (I think). If someone has an exact answer on this it would be appreciated so I can clear up the original post.

IN PvE you get nothing. In tombs you get a henchman only after you move on to the next map. GvG you get nothing. Arena is a random player after you win.

No one. They sit there healing perfectly because casters don't have differences in heal ability and no one ever dies. the difference in .7 dps is around 1/140'th of an orison per second, meaning its around 5 energy per 2 minutes and 20 seconds during which time 4 pips regens 186.6 energy, leaving the monk with a paltry 3.992 pips effective.

/sigh. Ok.

You have two teams battling it out. By some happening, the only people left are two warriors. Same armor, same skills, no resses. The first warrior has a sword with +15% dmg while health > 50%, +5 defense, and a +3 health per hit/-1 health regen. The second has +10% dmg, +1 defense, and +1/-1. The 1st warrior wins.

Item variance should not be in the game. There may be some time where you need that 1, 2, 3 damage to make a difference. And to have that in the game is dumb.

Is Shaq someone the NBA has spoken against? No. Suggesting UAS in a "How can we improve the game?" thread is like responding to a "How do we generate interest in the MLB?" with "Give them pads and tackle each other!"
EDIT: Sorry for the spam.

Concerning item modifiers. I'm going to ask that this topic be dropped as both sides are simply saying the same thing back and forth to each other with no new arguments.

I will look through all the threads on the topic, consolidate, summarize and add it as an issue with pros and cons to the main thread. At that point feel free to add to the pros/cons if you think I missed anything.

As a reminder we're really trying to focus on large game mechanic issues here. I know everyone has there own little pet peeves and if we decided to make a list of them it'd be 400 pages long. Then you'd have to have a 10,000 page list of arguments as to why the first 400 page list is stupid and should never be implemented. (I think you get the idea).

I realize it's sort of arbitrary as to what is a big picture game mechanic and what is a pet peeve but try to use your best judgment as sometimes it's pretty obvious.

Like I said, we're trying to stick to big picture issues.

I actually think that item modifiers are a fairly large part of the game. From a pvp perspective, they aren't, but they're very much important in pve. Now, as previously stated, i think that near perfect mods are available easily.

Now, if we want to incorporate an equal playing field for pvp and pve characters, we'd need to essentially let an end game pve character be equal to pvp characters. We can accomplish this in several ways:

Do not change the items themselves, but change the rate at which they are dropped. If a character recieves 30 max damage gold items during its lifetime, it is almost certain he'll have an item he can use, or he'll have enough to get one that he needs.

Give a 10-20 skill point bonus to players who have finished the game, to allow them to backtrack and take skills they don't already have.

Get rid of the botters. Self explanatory.

Get rid of attribute refunds.

Allow characters who switch secondaries to use any skills from the new secondary class that they've previously unlocked.

Edit: whoops, meant refunds.

Spirits and the Ghostly Hero.
I have no problem with the Ghostly Hero being bodyblocked, but a lot of times he just gets stuck on random things and stays there. I've even had him float up into the air, but someone told me henchmen do that sometimes as well. In KotH maps, I'd just suggest that the area where he can start capping be larger.

While we're on the subject of KotH, make the Hall of Heroes a simple 1v1 map. Hell, you could even make it like an actual tournament, just a lot of 1v1s. But I like relic runs, KotH, etc. just not when HoH is KotH. And the current six team maps, either make those 4 teams or 8 teams. That'd improve Tombs a lot. In GvG, make the Guild Lord like a priest. When he dies, you stop ressing.

Now for spirits. I don't have any problems with the actual effects of any spirits except for Nature's Renewal and Fertile Season. Quickening Zephyr maybe, but not as much as the first 2. Fertile should effect entities that are in your party screen; teammates, Ghostly, Priest, pets, etc.

If spirits are to be tangible and killable, then there needs to be some limiting factor. Maybe Death Penalty, maybe shared health, etc., just as long as they can't be spammed to prevent movement. Now, 2-3 copies is reasonable to make them stick, but when you're trapped in because they've spammed spirits , that's dumb. Or, you could keep them as is but transparent. In that case, it doesn't make sense that you'd be able to kill them, so you need some type of skill to disable them. Maybe like a Rend Spirits, where for each spirit removed you take 40 damage.

I'm hoping you meant attribute refunds... otherwise, no.

And UAX isn't a play mechanic? Deleting the posts don't change the fact that the topic fits all the criteria except the arbritrary "you can't mention it" rule:

- Is it a major community suggestion? For some in the community, particularly PvP, it can be the only legit issue worth suggesting.

- Is it a play mechanic issue? I'd say balancing the teams in a pure competitive-driven fashion is absolutely a fundamental play mechanic issue.

- Does the popularity of the debated topic make it forbidden? Logic suggests just the opposite, but if that's the case, there are tons of Spirit spam nerf threads debated... why are they allowed?

Perhaps asking for full refund points in towns (I want it) is minor "in the big picture", but UAX as a topic to at least list pros and cons is waaaaaay too major of an issue to not have it's presence on this thread. Just link to the debate threads like you did to others - it need not be re-debated in this thread and I can respect that. At least add it to the main list however.

I don't agree that Protective Bond abuse will stop being an issue when solo'ing is discouraged or the need for farming is taken away. As far as PvE goes, abusive Protective Bond builds will still be the most powerful by far, and it'll continue to kill off experimentation because there's just no better alternative for it.

For those who say balance isn't important in PvE, I propose that what little longevity PvE has is killed off by dominant builds. If one build gets you through a certain challenge, that build will continue to get you through that certain challenge, unlike in PvP the challenge won't adapt itself to counter your strategy. The existance of dominant builds so abusively powerful that they are fit to overcome 90% of the challenges PvE can offer on solo (including those areas designed specifically for eight-player teams, such as the Underworld) means that no matter what ArenaNet introduces as further content, it's either too easy for the Protective Bond abusers, or way too hard for the people that don't. For new players, they can rest assured that there is a build out there which pretty much works as iddqd did in Doom II - stupidly simple tool to cheap victory, so they're buying an empty game.

Now people might argue "if you don't like it, just don't use it, leave us alone!". It's like having to choose a weapon to beat a challenge, and there's a blunt knife available, and a shiny rocket launcher aside it. Sure, there's going to be people consciously gimping themselves because they enjoy an illusion of challenge, but the existence of the rocket launcher has already broken the actual challenge - they can go back and pick up the rocket launcher any time they want, and force their way through. I don't think ArenaNet should casually shrug off a skill setup that steamrolls what they currently sell as PvE challenge.

Most people don't see a problem with this issue because they're either:
- too green behind the ears to know about Protective Bond abuse
- too busy playing PvP to give a damn about PvE (this Protective Bond setup is indeed laughable in PvP)
- abusing Protective Bond themselves for phat lewt and ultimate pwnage and don't want the evil ArenaNet to nerf their cash cow

But I still believe if ArenaNet cares for its PvE environment, it should crack down on things like this. I'm sorry if my arguments are incoherent, it's a complex issue without a single serious abusive aspect that seriously cuts into enjoyment in the game, rather it dumbs the game down below the radar, and PvE is shallow enough as it is.