End User Agreement - Say What??

I went to add a pre-order key to my account, then scanned the End-User Agreement when it popped up.

Imagine my surprise to see the following clauses:

"4. ACCOUNT
(a) Eligibility. Accounts are available only to adult individuals 18 years of age or older. If you are less than 18 years of age and wish to use the Service, your parent(s) or guardian(s) must complete the registration process, open an Account in their name(s) and accept full responsibility for all obligations under this Agreement. Those who have completed these steps and who maintain their Account in good standing are sometimes referred to in this Agreement as ?Members.?
By accepting the terms of use in the Agreement, Members represent that you are an adult 18 years of age or older. Only one person may use an Account. The registered user of an Account may use the Account or may choose instead to permit a minor child of the registered user to use the Account. You are liable for all activities conducted through your Account, and parents or guardians are liable for all activities of their minor child conducted through the Account.
(b) Master Accounts and Game Accounts. To use the Service, you must first create a Guild Wars account either by creating a master account on the PlayNC service (?Master Account?) or a game specific sub-account for Guild Wars or using the registration system provided when launching the game (?Game Account?). Master Accounts on the PlayNC service are free and can be created at www.plaync.com <http://www.plaync.com/>. A Game Account is subject to specific fees as per section 5 (see Chapter Purchases).

<more deleted>

5. CHAPTER PURCHASE
Our fees and billing procedures are published in the registration section of the Web Site, which are incorporated herein by this reference. All fees are stated in U.S. Dollars. YOUR CHAPTER PURCHASE IS PAYABLE IN ADVANCE AND IS NOT REFUNDABLE IN WHOLE OR IN PART FOR ANY REASON WHATSOEVER, INCLUDING, WITHOUT LIMITATION, INTERRUPTION OR UNAVAILABILITY OF SERVICE (SEE ALSO SECTION 10 BELOW). We will automatically charge your credit card for applicable new Chapter purchases, plus any applicable taxes we are required to collect, where you authorize us to do so. All new Chapter purchases are payable in advance. YOU ARE FULLY LIABLE FOR ALL CHARGES TO YOUR ACCOUNT. By paying by credit card, you represent to NC Interactive that you are the authorized user of the credit card used to pay the new Chapter purchase. You agree to promptly notify NC Interactive of any changes to your credit card account number, its expiration date and/or your billing address, and you agree to promptly notify NC Interactive if your credit card expires or is cancelled for any reason.
NC Interactive reserves the right to alter the fees payable for new Chapters or introduce alternative fee structures for the Service. Any alteration to the purchase price will be posted on the Web Site at least 30 days prior to such alteration taking effect. If you do not agree to any such alteration, you should not purchase the new Chapter and/or you should terminate your Account prior to the date on which the alteration takes effect, otherwise the revised amount will automatically be debited to your Account."


Now, PLEASE (please, please, please!!!) correct me if I'm wrong, but my impression is that we are, upon Registration, going to be required to open an account which will require a Credit Card that will be automatically billed for any subsequent 'Chapter' (which seems to mean whatever content the company wishes to define as a chapter), with any frequency deemed fit by the Company, even, dare I say it, monthly. The price of said chapters is not indicated anywhere that I was able to access.

I'm concerned, particularly about the last sentence, which effectively states that, if you don't like the price and don't want to pay it, you should cancel your Account, ie. stop playing the game, period. Uh, I thought we'd be able to play even without buying new chapters? Any new chapters. Right?

I can't think of the number of times I've been bombarded with assurances that there would be no 'monthly fees' for playing this game. The implication seemed to have been that additional Chapters would be optional, available at retailers, and that there would be no need for any sort of automatic billing or further payment.

Right now, I feel like I have perhaps been had, that the letter of what A-Net promised may have been true - not 'monthly', just every 38 or 48 or 15 days? -- the spirit of it may not. I'd really like to know, before I plunk down the rest of the purchase price, BTW, just WTF is going on here.

Administrators?

Alpha testers?

Gaile?

that might be the option to purchase directly perhaps online instead of a store

Think of it as buying an expansion for any other game.

here is where it comes in everybody

Answer
Guild Wars will be available at your favorite retail location. You will be able to acquire subsequent chapters for Guild Wars via retail stores or direct download.

Nope. In legal language, 'and/or' means BOTH sides of the proposition. I certainly hope that it will end up optional, but the way I read this, both a Credit Card and (for those of you under 18) parental consent are going to be required upon Registration.

We really need an official response to this.

This makes me worried. We need to light up a signal or something to Anet.... I want to hear from Gaile or Alex! rawr!

wow, havent been this scared in a while. as long as i dont have to give them a credit card # im fine, but my parents wont like giving up their credit card number. also, whats up with that parent registration stuff? and why didnt they ever mention this before in like the BWE's??

Because that would put a downer on things.

Did Anybody Read The Above Post At All??

Option To Download It

If You Download It How Else Will You Pay For It??

Choice Of Store Or Download People

Answer

Guild Wars will be available at your favorite retail location. You will be able to acquire subsequent chapters for Guild Wars via retail stores or direct download.

I don't see how that information pertains to the User Agreement part on the first post.

I believe I agree with Loviatar, that this is a description of an option you have. It looks like you can, if you wish, give them your credit card number and simply have them debit your account automatically for each expansion (for example, if I like the game I'll be doing that, because I live in Japan and have a hard time buying the box version). Of course, if you decide you don't want the next expansion, you'll have to tell them to stop automatically billing it.

My impression (my legalese is not good, but...) is that that's entirely voluntary--you will not be required to get the expansions. The whole second section should be read as an "if...then" discussion.

I believe. Of course, some offical translation of the legalese would be nice.

My husband points out in addition that this seems to be NC Soft's general EULA, which must therefore be vague enough to apply to both GW and all of NC Soft's monthly payment games like CoH, Lineage, etc. That might explain some of it as well.

Starflower

I'm assuming you're referring to this:

"If you do not agree to any such alteration, you should not purchase the new Chapter"

If this is the case, and it is optional, no info on registration, I'll be very, very relieved, since I haven't wanted to play anything this much in a lo-o-ong time. I don't find this to be clear, however, and would dearly love confirmation. Did you check this out at the login screen?

Actually, That made a lot of sense... But I'm still not too sure. I'd like an official to clarify things...

EDIT:

Oh, Also.... The game is rated "T" for teen... So why should the user need to be 18? It's sort of odd.

the latest official word

Am I required to buy the expansion packs to continue to play Guild Wars?

No. Every purchase you make in the continuation of the Guild Wars saga will be your choice. If you purchase expansion packs you will gain access to new regions of the world, new skills and abilities, new items, new professions, and much more. If you choose to not purchase a chapter, you will still be able to play the chapters of Guild Wars that you own, and you will have common areas in which you will be able to play with and against your friends who have purchased the other chapter(s).

Again, I hope you're right. But the vagueness of a general EULA should not be applied to a game that seeks to radically alter the method of paying for online games and, I think, should definitely not express a general disclaimer that refers to a possible alteration of the way the "Service" will be paid for. That phrase is the one that seriously bothers me.

If their other games charge a monthly fee, fine, they need a common agreement. If this one does not and will not charge a monthly fee, it needs a separate EULA.

the 18 or parent/guardian permission thing will simply be because it is multiplayer. No matter if they released Teletubbies online, they would have to put the same of disclaimer in, because you'll always get one person coming online and talking about sexual stuff or being threatening.

again the official word

There will not be a subscription fee of any kind, anywhere in the world and there are no hidden fees. You will not have to pay for the streaming updates that will take place on a regular basis, nor for additional content that we will provide between the chapters of Guild Wars.

That can be applied to anything. If it were so, The general fact that it is an online game should make it rated M.

I still think it shouldn't be required to be 18.

18 is for the credit card purchase of optional later chapters not the game you can walk into the store and buy
calm down everybody

Sorry, I think not Loviatar. It clearly says you are required to be 18 to have an account, which is obviously necessary to play the game.

To be fair, some online services require you to be of a certain age before they'll let you in as well, i.e. e-mail and forums.

The real question is how much they are willing to enforce this rule, such as the requirement of a credit card to check your details, etc. Here's hoping they won't be practicing some over zealous anti-piracy methods coughsteamcough.

[QUOTE=Loviatar]the latest official word

I'm assuming that this is from the website? Sorry, but the website isn't the EULA, nor legally binding.

BTW, I'm not trying to just stir stuff up here, I really would like to see an alteration in that wording when I go to the login on Wednesday, and I really don't want to find that I've paid for something that requires Credit Card info before it will activate. The way that document reads, this is precisely what I'd expect.

*The eligiblity section is to define an account so as to define legal rights and obligations in attachment. If someone under 18 sets up an account they can't be legally bound to the EULA because they haven't reached the age of majority nor are they entitled pursuant to the EULA. However, because of the legal definition of an account the account they opened is subject to summary closure because they weren't of legal standing to have an account in the first place, therefore they also can't complain about it because this is an agreement they are givin notice of prior to acceptance. Thus any misinformation provided is done with full knowledge it is erroneous and purposeful intention to violate the EULA. Subject to termination pursuant to the EULA either way.


1) This is specific to chapter purchase.

2) Please note the bold section, that's where they are telling you, you must authorize the billing. They do not bill you and you are just stuck unless you so authorize in the first place. So they aren't gonna be charging you for a chapter or to purchase one ahead of time unless that is what you asked them to do in ordering a new chapter before it is released (i.e. "authorized" ).

3) Please note the words "By paying by credit card..." explicitly implies there are other methods and the details herewith are only applicable if you should choose the method described, meaning: They are not going to require a credit card to sign on pursuant to either of the above quoted sections.

This is only to make sure you have notice anyway. They can have no cause of action against you without your express consent, to gain that they need to give you notice and opportunity. The EULA is notice, your acceptance the legal acknowledgement and opportunity.

---------

Just thought I would offer up what I could glean from these sections. Hope it was helpful.

I am taking this from the Guild Wars Web Site

"Will there be a subscription fee for Guild Wars? Are there any other fees, such as for patches or updates?

There will not be a subscription fee of any kind, anywhere in the world and there are no hidden fees. You will not have to pay for the streaming updates that will take place on a regular basis, nor for additional content that we will provide between the chapters of Guild Wars."

as well as

"Am I required to buy the expansion packs to continue to play Guild Wars?

No. Every purchase you make in the continuation of the Guild Wars saga will be your choice. If you purchase expansion packs you will gain access to new regions of the world, new skills and abilities, new items, new professions, and much more. If you choose to not purchase a chapter, you will still be able to play the chapters of Guild Wars that you own, and you will have common areas in which you will be able to play with and against your friends who have purchased the other chapter(s)."

http://www.guildwars.com/faq/default.html#release

I'm just gonna throw in my 2 cents, now if u think of this realistically I think it's fair to say the majority of users will be under 18 and I also think its fair to say that most of them wont go to there parents to have them make the account, which means if the guys controlling this, ncsoft, arena net or whomever will find that they would lose a lot of players, and if an individual who is in fact under the age of 18 did make an account how are they going to prove that?

I believe the web site. TAKE IT EASY PEOPLE. They even say there is no hidden fee. AND.. if there is we can all take them to court, get their money and buy them out...

one last thing
all the accounts that have already been created on preorders will be kept according to Gaile Gray an official of the company

she made no mention of age and if only people 18 or over could set up an account to play it would be mentioned

this 18 year minimum is for downloading the new chapter on the account not simply to play the game

hopefully Gaile will officially put the final post on this thread tomorrow

I certainly hope that the majority aren't under 18. I'd actually be surprised - many college and post college people are just as into games, and in fact the GW method appeals more to these people - after all, you can be competitive without needing to invest 2000 hours training up characters. I have found it amazingly common to meet folks in their 30s and up in this game, possibly because that audience has been waiting for a game they can play in their spare time and not be at a huge disadvantage because of more limited gaming hours.

As for the EULA, I have taken games back because I didn't agree with the EULA, you have to read things and make certain you agree - it is a legal document. That said, companies should be bothered to ensure that the document conforms to their wishes, not simply recycle past versions.

Y'know, I want to agree with you guys, but I can't.

Section 4 explicitly states that, in order to use the 'Service' (ie. play the game), we are required to have a 'Game Account', which is subject to fees as defined under Section 5. All well and good.

The part of Section 5 that I take exception to is in the following:

"NC Interactive reserves the right to alter the fees payable for new Chapters or introduce alternative fee structures for the Service. Any alteration to the purchase price will be posted on the Web Site at least 30 days prior to such alteration taking effect. If you do not agree to any such alteration, you should not purchase the new Chapter and/or you should terminate your Account prior to the date on which the alteration takes effect, otherwise the revised amount will automatically be debited to your Account."
(emphasis added)

I just want to know what 'alternative fee structures' they may be contemplating, since I'll either have to accept them or terminate the Account that is necessary to play any game content I've paid for until then. That second sentence actually says that you should terminate your account if you do not agree with any alteration in the purchase price: either don't purchase it and terminate your account, or, if you've already purchased it, terminate your account prior to the effective date if you wish to avoid being debited. Whether or not that's what they intended to say, given the contradictory statements in the FAQ and in all their public statements, is quite irrelevant: that's what it does say, so they need to alter the EULA to fit their public pronouncements. And if any 'alternative fee structure' is unrelated to 'alteration[s] to the purchase price' of Chapters, then it should be given a separate clause in the EULA.

The age requirement I have no difficulty with, since they're merely covering themselves over responsibility for behaviour, but the fee structure needs a bit of clarification beyond the good intentions expressed in their promotional material.

yea, as far the 18 thing goes, there saying just to make sure if one was to do something or something happened and the age stuff matters they would be covered better than saying the age of 13 or whatever, keep mind most of the time these eula agreements are written up by attorneys so saying 18 is in their best interest legally.

No, But the EULA does say you need to be 18 to make an account. Did you even look at my previous post?

(Sigh!)

Just to clarify my general position:

a) I WANT to buy this game;

b) I WANT to buy every chapter that the fertile imaginations of the Dev team can come up with;

c) I DO NOT want to, nor will I, ever be required to pay by the month to play;

d) I BELIEVE Gaile when she says, and the website says, that they don't want or intend to do so;

BUT

e) The EULA needs to reflect that.

yea i think theres some poor wording in the EULA and some rather odd age restrictions on a game thats free online

Same here T want to think that all this Legal stuff ot just so they can't get sued if your little 12 yr old sees too many players dancing in their underwear As far as the credit card You will need one to buy online. I still like to go the the store but it is a nice option. I hope Gaile will Tell us the goos news As I want to play but will NOT pay a monthly fee for any Game. Even GW

I do say that the wording on payment structure needs to be cleared up.

As for requiring 18 for a minimum age, it's a legal thing mainly to keep people off of their butts. I'm sure there will be plenty of people registering below 18, but if one of these people or their parents have a problem, NCSoft/ANet can instantly say "ha! They were going against the agreement, so we are not liable!" In short, it's a release of liability.

2 items...

1) The wording might be cut and paste from other EULAs that NCsoft has, so they have something for the time being to at least cover their heiney (No I ain't talkin beer! )

And, along these lines...

2)Kryptpgen you are getting the idea. See if ever some incident occured where where Arena.net could be pointed to for liability, the EULA as worded would cause arena.net to be held harmless if they were an innocent bystander to a minor who abused the system. The purpose is notice, which means some things have absolutely no observable relationship that we can see but are there to assure Arena.net is protected and is bound to deliver certain rights of use to a legally bound person. I was gonna give some particulars but for brevity, the age portion is a matter of notice for protection of Arena.net and isn't there to discourage anyone from using "GuildWars as directed" so to speak.

Yea see, they simply just word it that way just to cover there backs, and like I said they don't have proof of who went to their parents and who didn't its simply there for liability issues, which generally isnt a worry to most people.
As far as the purchasing of further chapters goes im sure there just making it an option to buy online and just download the content to your account kinda like if u bought a game over steam.

I'm not utterly sure, But the last bit there about the fee only being for chapters.. Does that exclude what they say earlier in the EULA? About other fees? (Refer to first post)

It is a direct reference to the first post, section 4(b). No biggie there at all. The statment is merely a Notice that you will be buying chapters and the account is created pursuant to the provisions of section 4(b). That's all it is saying there at the end.

The beginning is fair warning that if you have another account on ncsoft servers and you say otherwise here, that they can take action should something happen on the ncsoft side and you get suspended, meaning: You won't be able to continue here because you lied. Troublemakers are the cause of all this mumbo jumbo.

When you click accept you are acknowledging the notice and waiving opportunity essentially, meaning you see nothing wrong and agree without reservation.

i also think part of it is using almost a scare tactic on people who arent 18 and sign up, and scare them with that stuff so they dont go and do something stupid, and yea the only reason we have all these huge agreements is because someone is always going to go and be a menace