Another Trapper Build Question

In this build, do you see any actual reason for me to train in marksmanship at all? I was thinking I could completely drop marksmanship and pump up my necro curses, and perhaps take advantage of more than just Shadow. What do you think?

Ranger/Necromancer

Marksmanship 8 + 1
Wilderness Survival 11 + 1
Expertise 11 + 3
Curses 3 + 0

Skill 1: Oath Shot (Expertise)
Skill 2: Distracting Shot (Expertise)
Skill 3: Barbed Trap (Wilderness Survival)
Skill 4: Flame Trap (Wilderness Survival)
Skill 5: Troll Unguent (Wilderness Survival)
Skill 6: Whirling Defense (Expertise)
Skill 7: Point Blank Shot (Expertise)
Skill 8: Shadow of Fear (Curse)

I mean I can always swap in other Curses like Enfeeble, and use Rend since I'll have curses racked up to level 8. Shadow will also be more powerful.

If I were to take all of the Marksmanship away, I'm just not sure I would miss it. Dibilitating shot is unlinked if I wanted to swap that in for PvP.

What do you think? Would I need Marksmanship with this build?

In most cases, when you start getting into higher damage bows, they are going to have a marksmanship requirement.

FOR example : Last BWE I was running with a 14-26 Flatbow...not too shabby either. However, it required that I have 10 in my marksmanship attribute to fully utilize the bow. ( If you don't meet the attribute requirement level then your weapon will act as a starter level bow of same type until such time as you gain that attribute level. For a flatbow, I believe the starter level would be 4-6 as your damage.)

So, you have a choice, nerf your marksmanship and just use a mediocre level bow (unless you actually manage to find a high-ender without a requirement) or invest some points to gain your full advantage in it for your weapon.

Some people have made mention that being able to get a bow that had Expertise requirements rather than marksmanship would be nice, but to date it isn't known if it can be had, so the marksmanship is the requirement factor on them for now.

Basically, the side-effect of having a bow ranger is automatically having two non-negotiable attributes in a build if you use a bow as weapon of choice.
Effectiveness becomes tied to Expertise and Marksmanship to get the most out of bow usage.

Davion has it right.
Not only do bows have a minimum marksmanship requirement, your base damage is also tied to your attribute level. Read up on the Treatise on Combat Mechanics, in the guides section, to see just how much damage you effectively get at each level.

It's definitely worth mentioning that all PVP weapons have a minimum attribute requirement of 9, so 8+1 is the minimum you'll want your marksmanship to be on any bow user.

Awesome information, thanks guys. I was wondering why trapper builds were containing Marksmanship, and I completely understand now.

Another quick question if anyone sees this:

Is it worth having a +3 rune just to attain 15 in Expertise, when I lost, what, 75 hitpoints for doing so? I find that odd. The mana cost reduction really makes up for all those hitpoints?

Thanks!

HeHe.. As far as justifying the inclusion of a +3 rune? Yup, it can be very much worth it if your goal is to max out your skill cost reductions with expertise. Don't worry about the neg. 75 health. There are vigor runes that can offset that for the most part.
The only thing you may want to consider is just how many +2/+3 runes you end up using as this can seriously affect your health total.

Easy rule of thumb I use for myself is... no more than one rune with a +2/+3 skill bonus so that I don't incur too much of a life penalty.

The other thing to remember is that expertise cost reduction go in stages so you have to decide for yourself if having it so high is really worth the rune bonus. On average?... getting expertise to somewhere between 8-10 is a pretty good usage level.
Your marksamanship though is fully utilized at level 12. Anything above 12 in that is still a bonus but it is scaled down with each level beyond 12 by a diminishing returns equation.

Thank you Davion, that's very helpful.

I still think I'm felling obsessed about getting expertise to a full 14. A lot of the builds I have been fooling around with use all 5 and 10 mana cost skills. I can do alot of stuff with 25 mana if I have 14 expertise, the way I see it.

I wasn't aware that one could make up for the hitpoint loss, but now that you've mentioned that I really don't feel bad about it at all.

you're welcome.

As far as an obsession with expertise?. check out this guide..Expertise Costs

It should give you a better understanding of how the cost reductions per level work for expertise. It will also detail where the costs shift for you.

yeah, that guide is where I got the idea of making a ranger build with all 10 and 5 power skills.

I'm looking at plinking away with 2 mana , 4 mana, etc with my 14 expertise.

Here's the build I'm eyeballing right now:

Support Ranger PvE

Marksmanship 11 + 1
Wilderness Survival 9 + 1
Expertise 10 + 4
Blood Magic 4

Skill 1: Punishing Shot
Skill 2: Penetrating Attack
Skill 3: Hunter's Shot
Skill 4: Determined Shot
Skill 5: Read the Wind
Skill 6: Shadow of Fear
Skill 7: Healing Spring
Skill 8: Troll Unguent

PvP

Skill 1: Debilitating Shot
Skill 2: Distracting Shot
Skill 3: Hunter's Shot
Skill 4: Pin Down
Skill 5: Punishing Shot
Skill 6: Read the Wind
Skill 7: Shadow of Fear
Skill 8: Rend Enchantments

For me this build is about doing quick (zero cast time) damage in PvE groups, while adding a healing hand on myself and others when necessary, and dishing out some major disruption in PvP, all for really cheap mana costs when I can avoid the necro skills.

I would say you are solid and good to go then.

Just remember to take your time (PvE character), because you won't have all the skills right away, and it may get frustrating sometimes. Also concentrate for a bit on your marksmanship early on to boost your damage straight away.

Happy hunting

Thanks, thats one of the things I have been wracking my brain about. I've been trying to figure out what order to raise which skill in, and by what increments before I pop over to another category.

I figure that regardless of the order, I will raise my Curses last, as it seems the least important to me. Shadow will work just as "good" with 0 as it does with 3-4, barring of course how long it lasts.

So would you recommend prioritizing Marksmanship and Expertise, and then tossing Wilderness a bone when I feel appropriate, and following them all up with curses? That seem logical to me.

Ending last BWE... Level 12 ranger...... 10 marksmanship..... 5 expertise.

That's what I did... of course I had a bow I was trying to use (14-26 Flatbow..req. 10 marks)

My personal opinion? Get marksmanship around 7 to boost your damage then tinker a bit with a little expertise if you want. That is basically what I was doing. Treat your wilderness like your curses too,..secondary in the beginning.
You want to work on your primary skill first even if merely for higher survivability (output).

Awesome, thanks again.

Quote: Originally Posted by JeshterDaggerfury I'm looking at plinking away with 2 mana , 4 mana, etc with my 14 expertise. What is mana?? Sorry for offtopic but I just need thsi quick question answered.

hehe.. not a problem. A lot of people coming into this game from other games still use their other game terminologies because they haven't yet adjusted to this game's wording. Mana is Energy.

Lol then wouldn't it be easier on the new guys to say energy I have been SOO confused Lol. But i just have ONE more question.

ON your attributes.. why do you have +1 and such?
And how do you know the number of attributes you have or will have?

+1/+2/+3 runes... also specific head gear items can give you a +1 to a particular attribute as well. for your second question look here. Attributes

I'm talking in numbers that my character will have at level 20, after I place them that way over the course of his entire career.

The + 1, +2, etc comes from Runes or Items in the game that can add to specific atttributes. For example, a ranger can get a Hat that adds +1 to an attribute. You can also get runes that add +1, 2, or 3 to attributes, but the +2 and +3 runes subtract hitpoints from you in return for adding points to attributes.

I hope that makes sense.

Oh, and sorry about mana. About 30% of the time I call it mana, about 30% I call it power, and about 30% I actually call it Energy.

Just about every game I have ever played calls it mana, so I think of it as mana. I'm an old school roleplayer.