Why is that any non monk character takes at least 15 minutes to get a group?
(Especially a necro or mesmer... and non trapper rangers)
Are people that dense that all they think is "Fire nuke with echo", "warrior/monk with axe or sword" and "healing monk"?
I can believe this, because the idea is to have a unique character, not the same exact skillset as everyone else. Not only that, but parties with mesmers and necros and rangers succeed more because there is more of a balance (not to mention easy interrupts of monks).
FoW/UW Absurd
LifeInfusion
Theus
Its because people believe more so in the "Holy Trinity" which is Elementalists,Monks, and Warriors.
All the other classes get the shaft when it comes down to UW/FoW..which is sad because a Necromancer/Mesmer/Ranger can make a huge difference in a party.
All the other classes get the shaft when it comes down to UW/FoW..which is sad because a Necromancer/Mesmer/Ranger can make a huge difference in a party.
Kha
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Originally Posted by LifeInfusion
Are people that dense that all they think is "Fire nuke with echo", "warrior/monk with axe or sword" and "healing monk"?
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Until ANet fixes it so grouping is more beneficial than soloing, the game will continue at this rate.
Artemis Bladewing
LOL The thing is why u dont find a groups is cuz Mesmers, Ele. Trappers, and Monks can farm UW in groups of 3 or by themselves the makes the chances of drops higher. No need to add extra ppl to steal drops
sidepocket13
i am currently running a mo/me and happen to be level 20, i jumped into ToA so i could knock out Villainy. i instantly got 5-6 join requests. i finally had to lie and announce that i wasnt ascended to be left alone! I have no problem jumping into a group, but the least you can do is ask first!
and when i do start a group, i dont care who comes. i dont want people bitching and moaning about things. the most important thing to me is attitude! so if you want to get into an UW group i am opening, dont be a prick!
and when i do start a group, i dont care who comes. i dont want people bitching and moaning about things. the most important thing to me is attitude! so if you want to get into an UW group i am opening, dont be a prick!
Maiyn
I dunno I got sick of playing with groups around the time I made my monk... so basically I ascended with henchmen and moved on from there. Once I figured out the solo build it was sorta my dream come true.
Monks are brutal playing in groups.. they're the class everyone loves to hate.
Once we get bored of solo farming/or nerf we'll come back. Monks were always scarce anyhow.
Monks are brutal playing in groups.. they're the class everyone loves to hate.
Once we get bored of solo farming/or nerf we'll come back. Monks were always scarce anyhow.
SisterMercy
There will always be a monk shortage as long as the game is balanced to give monks the primary beneficial healing capabilities. The only thing that comes close is Necros with Well of Blood / Power, which is conditional (a corpse is required).
That said, things change one step at a time. Myself and a few other Blood Necros have been proving the value of having Blood Ritual / Blood is Power, and now groups are starting to ask for that. Or at least the monks are...
It took some time before people discovered trapper grouping, too. I sat in on one and it was like a giant squid / beetle bug-zapper -- a sight that has to be seen at least once. Doesn't work as well with only one trapper in a party though and certainly doesn't translate to the open plains of FoW.
Protection/Smiting solo builds are simply one of the more recent developments. Old tricks from PvP find new life in a new application. There seems to be a lot of interchange between what becomes popular in PvP, even though the objectives are very different and the trends don't always coincide. But as with PvP, trends change, and soloing will lose its allure.
2-man smites can clear out UW, but could they successfully complete all the questing or do a realistic Gwen search party (presuming that a certain quest or number of quests need completion to make this available)? I keep thinking that there's an awful lot of doors visible in UW with no other apparent purpose than to be opened somehow.
Maybe when enough people become curious enough to start adjusting their builds for that, we'll see the next "frustrating" wave. But each change adds a little more diversity.
That said, things change one step at a time. Myself and a few other Blood Necros have been proving the value of having Blood Ritual / Blood is Power, and now groups are starting to ask for that. Or at least the monks are...
It took some time before people discovered trapper grouping, too. I sat in on one and it was like a giant squid / beetle bug-zapper -- a sight that has to be seen at least once. Doesn't work as well with only one trapper in a party though and certainly doesn't translate to the open plains of FoW.
Protection/Smiting solo builds are simply one of the more recent developments. Old tricks from PvP find new life in a new application. There seems to be a lot of interchange between what becomes popular in PvP, even though the objectives are very different and the trends don't always coincide. But as with PvP, trends change, and soloing will lose its allure.
2-man smites can clear out UW, but could they successfully complete all the questing or do a realistic Gwen search party (presuming that a certain quest or number of quests need completion to make this available)? I keep thinking that there's an awful lot of doors visible in UW with no other apparent purpose than to be opened somehow.
Maybe when enough people become curious enough to start adjusting their builds for that, we'll see the next "frustrating" wave. But each change adds a little more diversity.
Audhumla
Holy trinity groups aren't even really worth it.
I generally advertise as "Blood/Curses nec with Blood Rit and WoP LFG for UW/FoW". Any group that thinks I wouldn't help much isn't a group getting into in the first place. It might take a while, but once you find a group with a leader that recognizes the value of a nec or mes, you'll know that group is worth being in.
I generally advertise as "Blood/Curses nec with Blood Rit and WoP LFG for UW/FoW". Any group that thinks I wouldn't help much isn't a group getting into in the first place. It might take a while, but once you find a group with a leader that recognizes the value of a nec or mes, you'll know that group is worth being in.
Sleazy_D
Because unique builds don't play well with PuG. Simple as that. There is no role for "guy who can keep everyone slow" in a PuG since they'd really need "Guy who can make area errupt in firey death" to go along with it, and the role could be taken up by the more common "Tank" role. It's hard to get a group to accept the "spam crappy conditions all over one guy" since that's not all that helpful in UW/FoW without "Guy who spreads those conditions", or "guy who turns those conditions into damage".
Advertise yourself by end result. If the end result is mass damage, then adverise your DPS. If you disable enemies, then advertise that. If you're there to keep everyone with energy, then advertise that. If you can't figure out what you're good at, then why would anyone want you on their team? If you need another person to help acheive your goals, then you're not going to find a PuG in any reasonable amount of time. So advertise for someone to help you with a build, and see if you can get a mass damage team going.
Advertise yourself by end result. If the end result is mass damage, then adverise your DPS. If you disable enemies, then advertise that. If you're there to keep everyone with energy, then advertise that. If you can't figure out what you're good at, then why would anyone want you on their team? If you need another person to help acheive your goals, then you're not going to find a PuG in any reasonable amount of time. So advertise for someone to help you with a build, and see if you can get a mass damage team going.
ManaCraft
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Originally Posted by SisterMercy
That said, things change one step at a time. Myself and a few other Blood Necros have been proving the value of having Blood Ritual / Blood is Power, and now groups are starting to ask for that. Or at least the monks are...
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People simply prefer what's tried and true, perhaps even without realizing it. The tank/nuker/healer mindset is still very prevailant. Often you have to take people by the hand and show them that something other than what they've done all along is possible. Only then will they reevaluate the status quo.
ManaCraft
Kha
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Originally Posted by Audhumla
Holy trinity groups aren't even really worth it.
I generally advertise as "Blood/Curses nec with Blood Rit and WoP LFG for UW/FoW". Any group that thinks I wouldn't help much isn't a group getting into in the first place. It might take a while, but once you find a group with a leader that recognizes the value of a nec or mes, you'll know that group is worth being in. |
LifeInfusion
Nobody plays hydro. It sickens me.
Racthoh
No one really takes necro/mesmer because their effects aren't really seen on the field of battle. A blood necro with BiP, Well of Blood or what have is such an asset in the FoW for your monks. Mesmers shut down those annoying things that would shut down your precious healer. PvE wise, traps are a godsend when they know what they're doing with them. I still remember the ranger's bear who outlived two of our warriors in the UW. A true tank at heart.
It really bugs me that a lot of warriors get into groups, these oh so 'experienced' warriors. The ones who attack when they have spiteful spirit on them, the ones who don't bring at least one stance into the UW for battling aatxe. You know who you are. I'd much rather have our monks at full energy from a necro, or the aatxes blind as a bat from some dirt.
Were it not for the fact that I'm having too much fun outliving my teammates in the random arenas I'd form a well balanced UW/FoW group.
It really bugs me that a lot of warriors get into groups, these oh so 'experienced' warriors. The ones who attack when they have spiteful spirit on them, the ones who don't bring at least one stance into the UW for battling aatxe. You know who you are. I'd much rather have our monks at full energy from a necro, or the aatxes blind as a bat from some dirt.
Were it not for the fact that I'm having too much fun outliving my teammates in the random arenas I'd form a well balanced UW/FoW group.
Savio
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Originally Posted by ManaCraft
Being one of said necros myself, I'm happy that people are finally beginning to recognize the value of a well played blood necro.
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Originally Posted by Racthoh
The ones who attack when they have spiteful spirit on them, the ones who don't bring at least one stance into the UW for battling aatxe.
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Anyhow, I LOVE to have good blood necros or mesmers on my team, I actually do notice their effects. If I'm ever creating a team in ToA, you're all welcome to join.
Kakumei
necros are not just good for blood is power/well of power
mana regen is not all they do
and i hate the people who perpetuate that line of thinking
it pisses me off to no end to try to get into a fissure group with my n/me and fail again and again and again when i would rather bring a different elite than the two stated above
but i bring my healing monk and get fifty requests immediately
ugh
mana regen is not all they do
and i hate the people who perpetuate that line of thinking
it pisses me off to no end to try to get into a fissure group with my n/me and fail again and again and again when i would rather bring a different elite than the two stated above
but i bring my healing monk and get fifty requests immediately
ugh
Mormegil
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Originally Posted by Kha
Pretty much. Most monks are busy solo farming. It's just harder to actually find a monk than it is other professions for UW/FoW. Sad to say, people are getting a little skeptical at monks with all the idiots that keep screwing people over. I had a hard time finding a group the other day with my monk because people were just getting too discouraged and leaving.
Until ANet fixes it so grouping is more beneficial than soloing, the game will continue at this rate. |
That, or you'll only find newbie monks that can't play their class decently.
LifeInfusion
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Originally Posted by Kakumei
but i bring my healing monk and get fifty requests immediately
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Tactical-Dillusions
Why doesn't every monster drop something for everyone? All the drops are total dog turds anyway so what's the difference?
Ju_Smurph
Wants to do a Mesmer / Necro Only Fow Run...
Shadowdaemon
im planning a one monk, one warrior, 6 necro group for fissure, may not work, but 125 gold each aint nothing.
Ashley Twig
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Originally Posted by LifeInfusion
Nobody plays hydro. It sickens me.
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I do.
But I'm considering turning her into an air-elemental.
Water magic just doesn't seem to work for me.
Racthoh
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Originally Posted by Shadowdaemon
im planning a one monk, one warrior, 6 necro group for fissure, may not work, but 125 gold each aint nothing.
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SisterMercy
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Originally Posted by Kakumei
necros are not just good for blood is power/well of power
... and i hate the people who perpetuate that line of thinking... |
There've been times when I've been with teams that had a number of newer players and were looking like obvious "learning experiences," so I've done exactly that, bringing Crippling Anguish (mesmer skill) as my elite. It does a lot to make Aatxes and Shadow Warriors slower (including on the damage-dealing side) and somewhat easier to kill (more predictable), and I believe it helped get the parties much further than they would have otherwise. But don't expect people to be asking for CA for awhile (it's not something where you really see the effect visibly unless you're familiar with the beasties' regular habits).
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ju_Smurph
Wants to do a Mesmer / Necro Only Fow Run...
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Shadowdaemon
im planning a one monk, one warrior, 6 necro group for fissure, may not work, but 125 gold each aint nothing.
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Mesmerized
water has such potential, i for one hope it gets an update.. it would put my gold water staff and sup water runes to use ^_^
hehehe investments for the future hopefully
hehehe investments for the future hopefully
asdar
I think the problem is that there are so many bad players out there that can ruin your UW/FoW run that people would rather go short a player than take an unknown.
Just in the last week we've had people that just don't have a clue and ruin the trip. On one run the necro kept aggro'ing everything and when we let him die he left. Then we stayed for 3 hours doing quests like crazy until we had to go.
It's a waste of time posting about how to play here because if they ever read anything on the boards they would know not to take random quests and not to charge in and aggro everything in sight. People are stupid and while monks are people and often stupid you need a monk or two for a normal style group.
Just in the last week we've had people that just don't have a clue and ruin the trip. On one run the necro kept aggro'ing everything and when we let him die he left. Then we stayed for 3 hours doing quests like crazy until we had to go.
It's a waste of time posting about how to play here because if they ever read anything on the boards they would know not to take random quests and not to charge in and aggro everything in sight. People are stupid and while monks are people and often stupid you need a monk or two for a normal style group.
Darksci
Well heres a situation. I play a solo monk, and i get usually bored of doing it by myself after a few runs.
So i usually offer to create a team for the UW.
This involves:
Me the Tanker (I have protection prayer and healing if needed anyway)
1 Necro with BiP to give me energy (although its usually not a problem since i never run out)
The Rest as Nukers
Thats all i really need to create a fast group.
I dont need a ranger, dont need a mesmer, dont need a warrior.
Ranger = Trapper and Puller.. uum i pull and trapping isnt needed.
Mesmer = Dunno, what are they going to do that shear nuking cannot achieve?
Warrior = Dies in 4 hits, hence useless.
More than 2 necros = useless since nukers usually have enough energy they need.
Bascially, people dont want to bother experimenting with new builds since they if might mess up.
So i usually offer to create a team for the UW.
This involves:
Me the Tanker (I have protection prayer and healing if needed anyway)
1 Necro with BiP to give me energy (although its usually not a problem since i never run out)
The Rest as Nukers
Thats all i really need to create a fast group.
I dont need a ranger, dont need a mesmer, dont need a warrior.
Ranger = Trapper and Puller.. uum i pull and trapping isnt needed.
Mesmer = Dunno, what are they going to do that shear nuking cannot achieve?
Warrior = Dies in 4 hits, hence useless.
More than 2 necros = useless since nukers usually have enough energy they need.
Bascially, people dont want to bother experimenting with new builds since they if might mess up.
capitalist
I am thinking of trying a 3-man team for UW since I am bored with soloing.
Mo/W - InvinciMonk
N/Mo or Mo/N - BiP or Spellbreaker
E/Me - Nuker with Obsidian Flesh and Arcane Echo
This covers all the problems with enemy spells and provides the little extra firepower that is needed.
Mo/W - InvinciMonk
N/Mo or Mo/N - BiP or Spellbreaker
E/Me - Nuker with Obsidian Flesh and Arcane Echo
This covers all the problems with enemy spells and provides the little extra firepower that is needed.
Luggage
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Originally Posted by Shadowdaemon
im planning a one monk, one warrior, 6 necro group for fissure, may not work, but 125 gold each aint nothing.
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2. Putting spiteful spirit at 16 curses on every ataxe at once.
3. watch them explode around the tank.
Ollj
Most characters are not popular because they are good, they are just popular because they are so easy to play, and easy to understand, a lab mice could play them.
Its because the largest divisor of a large array is really small and almost everyone follows the catcher in the rye.
For example, its so pathetic that there are still so many air spike groups in the tombs, and even worse, they all use Air attunement, they are just feeding the rangers and can easily be stopped by a single protecting monk (or simular) with the right Skills in the bar.
But theres hope, some people know better, and those just own more than the best popular build and do better than the best solo monk farmer.
So i found that REALLY GREAT ORGANISATED PUG, we killed almsot any group in the UW in just a second (this includes killing 15 smites at once in a second) jusing a variousity of skills with nice timing and no simple minded build.
(of course this just worked because of the AI and wont work in tombs.
Give the comunity a chance, i see it evolving slowly... (sadly "evolving" stops a lot at natures renewal, it needs some time to understand the ballance in that skill, use signets and no enchantments FFS!).
Its because the largest divisor of a large array is really small and almost everyone follows the catcher in the rye.
For example, its so pathetic that there are still so many air spike groups in the tombs, and even worse, they all use Air attunement, they are just feeding the rangers and can easily be stopped by a single protecting monk (or simular) with the right Skills in the bar.
But theres hope, some people know better, and those just own more than the best popular build and do better than the best solo monk farmer.
So i found that REALLY GREAT ORGANISATED PUG, we killed almsot any group in the UW in just a second (this includes killing 15 smites at once in a second) jusing a variousity of skills with nice timing and no simple minded build.
(of course this just worked because of the AI and wont work in tombs.
Give the comunity a chance, i see it evolving slowly... (sadly "evolving" stops a lot at natures renewal, it needs some time to understand the ballance in that skill, use signets and no enchantments FFS!).
MSecorsky
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Originally Posted by Mesmerized
water has such potential, i for one hope it gets an update.. it would put my gold water staff and sup water runes to use ^_^
hehehe investments for the future hopefully |
trelloskilos
Well, having farmed at least 50% of the UW now with 2 other rangers and nobody else, I can honestly say that anyone overlooking trapping & pulling is blinkering themselves.
With a good, patient team, having all traps (Spike, Flame, Dust, Barbed), a spirit (Quickening Zephyr, Energising Wind, Favourable winds) between each ranger, some troll ungulant, a res signet and serpent's quickness, you can turn Ataxes, smites, and just about any pullable monster into a big BBQ in no time at all! 3-4 rangers, no primary monk, no BS! (OK< we had a secondary, but that was strictly for res purposes only, and only needed him once.)
OK, so it's not a solo build, and each set of monsters does take a little amount of time to set up, but when you lure them, it's a huse set of fireworks, loads of Exp, much rejoicing and loads of dead monsters. Sure beats going in with a team of 8 or the frustration of trying to find a monk or 2 that don't leave the party mid formation.
With a good, patient team, having all traps (Spike, Flame, Dust, Barbed), a spirit (Quickening Zephyr, Energising Wind, Favourable winds) between each ranger, some troll ungulant, a res signet and serpent's quickness, you can turn Ataxes, smites, and just about any pullable monster into a big BBQ in no time at all! 3-4 rangers, no primary monk, no BS! (OK< we had a secondary, but that was strictly for res purposes only, and only needed him once.)
OK, so it's not a solo build, and each set of monsters does take a little amount of time to set up, but when you lure them, it's a huse set of fireworks, loads of Exp, much rejoicing and loads of dead monsters. Sure beats going in with a team of 8 or the frustration of trying to find a monk or 2 that don't leave the party mid formation.
Rayea
well i think about half of the problems of geting a PUG in the UW or being ignored cause your a necro or ranger or mesmer would be sorted out if they had special Underworld only Henchies ^^
one of each, just like above. they could have a full set of infused armour, the special set that comes from collecting up the shards and such.
(this would let you see the armurs in their natural state, befor dues ect, so you can at least choose if you like)
they cant leave, for they are bound to the Underworld area and would dissintigrate for whatever reason...
(think the guy with the lyre who went into the underwolrd to get his girl back, only, cause he looked back right as he had almost made it, she vanished befor his eyes and he had to wait till he died to get back to her)
with them guys, since they would only be able to play with us in the underworld ect (im classing the Fissure as part, since it is a similar place, yes?)
you could pick up one or two if you were short....if you were a 2 monk/2 ele/2 tank group and were a tank or a monk short, grab a underHench
if you were a necro or mesmer and all alone, grab a few UnderHench and go play and learn
least that way, even if your dying a lot, you can stil get experiance of the UW ect...
one of each, just like above. they could have a full set of infused armour, the special set that comes from collecting up the shards and such.
(this would let you see the armurs in their natural state, befor dues ect, so you can at least choose if you like)
they cant leave, for they are bound to the Underworld area and would dissintigrate for whatever reason...
(think the guy with the lyre who went into the underwolrd to get his girl back, only, cause he looked back right as he had almost made it, she vanished befor his eyes and he had to wait till he died to get back to her)
with them guys, since they would only be able to play with us in the underworld ect (im classing the Fissure as part, since it is a similar place, yes?)
you could pick up one or two if you were short....if you were a 2 monk/2 ele/2 tank group and were a tank or a monk short, grab a underHench
if you were a necro or mesmer and all alone, grab a few UnderHench and go play and learn
least that way, even if your dying a lot, you can stil get experiance of the UW ect...
Ensign
The problem is that most players are flat out godawful.
Your basic fire nuker, your sword and shield tank, and your healing monk are *braindead* to play in a basic fashion. I'm not saying that a skilled player can't do 10x better, because they can, but your random scrub with Gladiator's Defense or whatever, and your random echo / Meteor Shower guy are going to be rather effective even with a relative lack of skill.
Now compare that with your average, terrible Ranger, Mesmer, or Necromancer. A bad Ranger or Mesmer is about as useful as Reyna or Dunham - they just kinda stand there and leech XP because they sure can't do anything useful. A bad Necromancer is even worse, actually being a burden upon a party and its Monks. Any one of those will make you wish you invited the awesome 'empty slot' into your group.
Players cannot tell who is good and who is terrible at a glance. Every invite is a gamble. So players who want to be successful stick to the low risk formulas - Warriors, Elementalists, and Monks - and find success because of it.
Peace,
-Cxe
Your basic fire nuker, your sword and shield tank, and your healing monk are *braindead* to play in a basic fashion. I'm not saying that a skilled player can't do 10x better, because they can, but your random scrub with Gladiator's Defense or whatever, and your random echo / Meteor Shower guy are going to be rather effective even with a relative lack of skill.
Now compare that with your average, terrible Ranger, Mesmer, or Necromancer. A bad Ranger or Mesmer is about as useful as Reyna or Dunham - they just kinda stand there and leech XP because they sure can't do anything useful. A bad Necromancer is even worse, actually being a burden upon a party and its Monks. Any one of those will make you wish you invited the awesome 'empty slot' into your group.
Players cannot tell who is good and who is terrible at a glance. Every invite is a gamble. So players who want to be successful stick to the low risk formulas - Warriors, Elementalists, and Monks - and find success because of it.
Peace,
-Cxe
Khem
If every party has atleast 2 monks, shouldnt there be ATLEAST 2 players in a team that really would love a necro just for 1 or 2 skills..
I think the necro's best way into a party is through the monks. (Altough they have MUCH more to offer)
Like said a few times before , promote Blood ritual/Bip (if you use it)
I am a Monk, therefor I love Necro's..
I think the necro's best way into a party is through the monks. (Altough they have MUCH more to offer)
Like said a few times before , promote Blood ritual/Bip (if you use it)
I am a Monk, therefor I love Necro's..
Aracos79
This is exactly why I can't wait until our guild starts doing some UW/FoW runs. It reduces the unknown variables quite a bit, and allows us to experiment with new, wacky builds if we so choose. If you hate PuGing it... find a good guild that's into PvE.