does anybody else feel this way?

right im trying to complete this game on my ranger since i've already given this game including Hell's Precipice a once over, and well here's the thing do you guys think the other human players not including yourself, your friends, your guild mates are just complete useless morons? i mean you see them right? the ones trying to put together PuG's? you see what they type, wanna make a group for such and such need this need that...must be this cant be that and what not? i know you guys say from time to time zoning into crowded servers

"wow these people are idiotic noobs, i cant believe they cant do such and such without such and such"

or

"dear god this distric is filled with nothing but morons"

because i say it too and constantly, i can honestly say that i myself have ZERO faith in PuG's or people i am not familiar with so the thing that im tryin to get out is do YOU as a player feel the same way? at one point in the game? most of the time? all of the time? because its been proven to me that 90% of the server is incompetent with the excempt of some

earlier today i tried to do Iron Mines with my ranger who im tryin to finish the game with as stressed in the first paragraph/rant, well i joined a PuG and dear lord after the first PuG it was downhill idiot central getting to the Seer, fighting to markis was easier with HENCHMEN so yeah its further reasserted my ZERO faith in the competence of the PuG and with that im done i just want to know if even one person at some point has felt this way

(oh and dont suggest joining a guild because in most cases they arent that much better)

Henchmen are superior to PUGs in every way shape and form. Being "anti-social", I mostly used henchmen even for my first time through the game. PUGs waste too much time in forming and losing over and over at easy missions.

mine is

Finding a good guild is hard, and even when you do find one, sometimes it doesn't last (i.e. the various members quit playing so much). I don't think pick up groups are a total waste of time, but they're only really good for PvE. You know, where you can take henchies if you get sick of people.

Most of the time, joining a guild (one that isn't full of really bad players) can help. Problem is finding a guild that's worth joining . Hall of Heros is by far the hardest PvP I can find; GvG isn't anywhere near as hard, because there's too many "bad" players and teams running around with 1/2 henchie teams because they can't find enough decent players (remember, 90% of the players are really, really bad).

It might not be as bad as 90%, but I do know that pick up teams in HoH doesn't go over too well (we do ok if we have a leader who knows what he's doing, and all the individuals know what they're supposed to do, even though we lose the coordination of "I'm doing this because it helps you"). Guild Wars is a complicated game; it's a shame the hardest part of it is finding people to play with .

Seriously hoping my friends get this game this fall....

yeah i was gonna add that too in the post,

in the "Tombs" as we affectionally call it for every 1 good person there are 17 completly useless PvP'ers they dont like to listen, charging down the middle to fight the forgotten is a MUST trying new templates that work is a big NO and they continue running around with sloppy half assed templates and still continue to think they are good but yeah Miss a good guild is hard to find/make

I'd say that on average there are around ~30% useful pug players, depending on time of day and location. Thus more often than not I get henchies and go because it's much faster and less hassle. Even if you have 3 out of 8 morons you are still going to suffer heavily. I've been in many groups that are fairly comparable to henchmen, I've been in many more than for some reason don't know how to play the game even at fire island :/. I could count on one hand the number of good pugs I've been in for missions (even some included 1 idiot), I don't bother with them anymore and get guildies.

you guys are so full of yourselves

Agreed, and it seems oddly difficult to get into a group with my ranger.

9/10 of the groups are looking for a monk
1/10 of the groups are looking for a warrior or nuker

Throughout the desert, a place where I have only used PUG's for the mission, I decided to try henchmen and I was shocked. I completely ever mission with ease, including Thirsty River which I had a hard time previously with PUG's.

I hate using henchies only for a mission til southern shiverpeaks where they absolutely kick arse. Otherwise, PuG's or guildmates til then.

Wait untill you get to ThunderHeadKeep.

You might think, "the more time I spend, getting a decent group together, the higher the chance of success might be".

Well, can be, must not.

2 days ago I spent 8 hours in ThunderHead, trying to get a nice team.
An invited monk whispered me: "Are you experienced". I replied "Done the mission several times, will discuss tactics before we start". He joined.
We discussed tactics, strategies how one could do the mission, we agreed on one of the many strategies, we failed.
Everybody agreed on not-rushing, listening to ppl how knew the mission, following targets, etc.
Nobody did that, once the mission started.

I was bugged by a team to get 2 monks for the mission. Took 15+ minutes to achieve the job. Thank god people on the team were patient enough which made me feel good about them.
Misson starts: shortly after the bridge, but before the city one monk sais: brb, 5 mins.
What's that supposed to mean? It's annoying, sure, but after all the bugging they gave me about a 2nd monk and the time we spend getting a 2nd monk: Why don't they wait just another 5 mins?
They didn't even read the team-channel with me writing several times: WAIT! (using a hell lot more exclamation marks).
Almost at the fort somebody all of a sudden wrote: hey, where is the 2nd monk?
By then I already whispered the other monk why he wouldn't wait, why he would be ignoring what I was writing.
I even whispered him after the (failed) mission why he, the monk, with all the power over a team, didn't make the group wait.
Reply: I'm a monk, I don't care, I just do my job, I heal.
Long story short: After all the ignoring that monk gave me during the mission, I ended on his ignore-list for questioning his team-spirit.

After that I decided to give it one more try: Group was complete within 2 minutes. No explicit tactics-discussion, no fuss, just Bamm! build a group, get out. Do what you have to do, complete the mission: Bang: you're in Emberlight Camp (or whatever the name)

I shed a tiny tear of joy, finally getting there after spending hours with people who were just too selfcentered to listen to others.

Yes, I can feel your pain.

The henchmen are awful. Alot of people might be idiots be idiots but on most missions it is easier to group with humans even if you do get an idiot or two.

Leading is neither pushing nor pulling. Don't blame others for your inability to deal with people.

Guild mates for me. My mes was my last baby to walk through Hell. I had been trying for 2 days with no luck. No "good" (balanced) groups want a mes in that mission. (Why on earth not - I don't know) So I finally started a group. We ended up with 3 rangers, 2 Necros, my Mes, a Monk and Mhenlo. We had a few difficulties, but overall - we won the mission quite handily. Without 2 real monks. Without ANY ele's. Without ANY "tanks". Screw "balanced". All you really need is intelligent people at the mouse/keyboard and you will do just fine no matter what classes they are playing.

Henchmen are only as awful as the player controlling them. Henchmen are extremely predictable, which is a very useful asset. They will always react the same way to the same situation allowing you to plan accordingly.

Unfortunately you can be the best leader in the world and that is meaningless if no one decides to listen because they are too busy drawing all over the compass map. Or, like a lot of bad players, they are drawn to the red dots like flys to lights.

For Thunderhead, I just took 2 henchies for monks. Did the job perfectly, I think we had only 2 deaths the whole mission. I just completed ring of fire with henchies after not being able to get into a group yesterday , wasnt easy cos of the lava areas, but with patience, i eventually completed it. So yes, I have also lost all faith in the PUG and wont waste more than 5 mins these days looking for a group.

You can't get by the entire game on PUGs. The point of the pickup group is to find the good players among the bad, and add them to your friends list, so that you may party with them later. Sure you'll have a lot of bad parties, but as you move forward you'll have better and better selections of friends to adventure with and complete missions with.

It's all about the luv connection

after ascending my first character i never played with players. i go with henches every where.

my guild we keep small and kick anyone that goes inactive over a week w/o telling us why. i've pretty much just get other people through the game and let them cap their skills that they need and don't go any further unless you really want to. i spend alot of my time farming for upgrades and gaining money for the guild. i bought our capes and guild hall with my own money and let everyone else save their's for gear they will need. we are getting ready for gvg. the main point is that each person in the guild has a "job" not just playing to get further or more stuff.

my bro leads and has started farming to get money faster.
i'm the big money maker of the guild and find enough upgrades and runes to fund the guild.
we have 3 runners so we can get straight to the stuff we need and don't waste time. most of the time we are lvl 20 by 1 day.

if you get a well organized guild it works but you can never tell when there is an 8 year old as the leader.....well.....yes you can.

Henchmen can do Iron Mines? I'm sure they're perfect up to the seer because I've done that but they don't seem to get infused when you do or did I miss something?

Anyway, yeah... sometimes it's frustrating but then again I usually don't play warriors, rangers, mesmers or necros due to this discrimination. I play E/Mo and Monk because at least 7/8 people do not want to play healer. I can't wait until my guild gets a few more people as healers so I can try the other classes.

/rant on
Cooperation is key. Its the fact that too many people in PuG's are so full of themselves, they end up ultimately taking out the team. How? Use your imagination, or better yet, experience, because I'm sure that anything that can happen in a PuG has happened to everyone at some point. A healer going afk because they need to pick up their clothes, a warrior going afk because they need a drink, an elementalist leaving the group because they died when they charged a group thinking that their AE's would be sufficient to drop anything and everything.
I'm not against PuG's and I'm not for them. I'm 'indifferent' to them. If I'm bored and want to do something interesting, I go and find a PuG because I know that there will be one character there that will be entertaining enough. If people happen to believe I'm that character, great, because it doesn't really matter much if I happen to die while a monk refuses to heal. Its just another way for others to sub-conciously learn about paying attention in groups. They may not admit that they learn nothing by wathcing someone die, but they do think of how they would act differently or how they could have saved me if they were playing a different class; or how they could have saved me but didn't feel like helping the poor ranger.
PuG's are really more for learning, if anything. In my experience, there doesn't seem to be any sense of trust between the players in a group. All they care about is self benefit and completing the mission by any means necessary (this proved by the people who leave in the middle of a group because they want no part in helping others learn).
Just think about it for a minute. I've played several other mmo's and have been sickened by the lack of trust and communication between group members in Guild Wars. They all have this sense of singularity, and that these characters that they may never see again are their only current mehod of progression. In my other experiences the whole PuG situation involves people wanting to help others, and for them to assist in any way they can. Ask yourself, when was the last time someone personally assisted you throughout a mission, who you don't even know, and they didn't charge a fee.
Lack of trust is what plagues PuG's in Guild Wars. Nothing more, nothing less.
/rant off

I've gotta say that just last night I had a PuG problem.

Started off entering the mission in Elona Reach with a PuG of two warriors, two monks, one ranger and myself - also a ranger. Now team seemed fine, but soon as we got in the mission, my nose was put firmly out of joint hearing in the chat window: Monk 1 says to Monk 2 - I'll heal Warrior 1 and you heal Warrior 2!. Now, forgive me for being naive, but aren't healers supposed to be there to heal everyone?

Anyway, continued into the mission and got the first two pieces of the ascension crystal (or whatever it is you collect), but had a couple of tough fights along the way. When we had collected the third piece, the leader decided we should go for the bonus - so along we went. Got to an area with 3 mobs, so the sensible thiing would be to draw off one mob at a time, kill them, then draw the next etc....

NO. The Warriors obviously needed the Monks more than myself and the other ranger as they rushed head-first into the middle of the three mobs. Despite my screams of attack the healers first, all but me and the other ranger seemed to think that by using mindless hacking/slashing they would win. Needless to say they died, then us rangers died because the monks ran away to a safe place.

Once the mobs had moved back the monks came and res'd us. Now, this time I told them why don't we just complete the mission. They said we could, but they were going to try it again, so we repeated the same thing, me shouting get the healers - them ignoring me.

Guess what? We died again - leaving one Monk.

Again he came back and res'd us. Now rather than just accepting defeat (as we now had substantial death penalties) and going back the way we came to complete the mission, they ran in AGAIN! This time (surprise, surprise) we ALL died, failing the mission.

My rant is that why are some people so narrow minded that they think:

a) Only warriors could possibly complete the missions
b) Running headfirst into x amount of mobs is better than trapping and drawing individual mobs onto the traps.
c) Even with death penalties, it is best to try getting the bonus, rather than just completing the mission and going back for the bonus next time?

???

Apologies for the rant and I know there are a large number of decent players who aren't like this, but I just think it is so frustrating.

Being a ranger and getting pretty much ignored by everyone in the team because of that is wrong. If I was so bad, why would I have made it to the desert? I did it the proper way - hard work, strategy on each quest and NO help from runners.

Anyway........I'm done!

I am always looking for a pick-up group whenever I am not with my guild.

I am patient. I love talking strategy and builds before heading out. I like to appoint one Player as the point man, and follow his lead.

however, I do not want to group with anyone who comes into my group with the automatic mentality that if I am not in their guild then I am an idiot. that is just arrogant, just short of jackass-ish.

just take the Henchies and STFU.

the other thing I can't stand is the player who comes in and automatically starts barking orders and insulting people for no other reason than because they've played the game once already. we had one guy at Thunderhead Keep who spent the entire mission bitching about not having two monks, insulting everyone in the group, calling us "noobs" and refusing to help the group fight, because we didn't have two monks. he's likely one of those who assumes that everyone not wearing his guild cape is an idiot. I wish the group leader could kick people from groups during missions. ugh. mebbe we should be able to vote to kick people as a group.

we made it to Dagnar without him anyhow, but lost there because Jalis died.

I hate arrogant asses. I really do.

Your group should have went back to town immediately, dumped him, grabbed someone else, then start again. It is faster to dump bad players than to go through a long mission like that and then lose.

Personally, I think I have a reasonable set of standards for how I want players in my PUGs to behave. Unfortunately, few players understand these:

1. Everyone must understand that only the leader or some designated person is allowed to ping or draw on the compass map. (I will allow exceptions for extreme emergencies)

2. Not every red dot in the universe must be killed. And certainly they don't have to all be killed at the same time.

3. Never leave a mission group unless you see at the top the words "Return to Outpost". The only exceptions of course being power outage, some kind of family emergency, act of god, and obvious stuff like that.

4. Never break away from your party to wander alone somewhere or to aggro some other group.

5. Never aggro another group until your party is regenerated and finished with the previous battle.

6. Always attack the target that is called and never call a target unless you are the designated target caller.

7. Know your roles. If you are a healer or spell caster, don't tank.

8. The monk is not always at fault. Furthermore, monks do not have an unlimited energy supply and monks cannot heal 1000 life per second.

9. LISTEN TO THE TEAM LEADER. There can be only one leader, and if you are not it, shut up. (This one is broken the most)

There are probably more, but I'm tired. The vast majority of the above rules are broken by most players. This is why PUGs are bad.

PUGs have their moments though. Last night I had a very good time completing the 2 missions before Thunderhead Keep, and it was all for my first time. Mind you though, it was at 12pm-2am so most of the annoying kiddies had already gone to bed and we were left with I think people in the age range of 18+ judging by the mature conversations had before and after.

I love PUGs. And hate them. They kinda balance themselves out for me so I'm impartial as well. The best times I've had in this game is when I've been in a very successful PUG. But the frustrations of not being able to find a competent group for 2-3 hours is annoying.

My experience with henchies is that I couldn't do much with them as my warrior because they would just seem to die too quick. With my Monk, henchies are great as well (Desert onwards). But if I see a group looking for players to go to somewhere that I want to go as well, I won't hesitate to join the group (unless I see someone that is below level for that area...I hate that...).

Bad luck is all I can say, I have finished the game with PuG twice, and there have only been 3 missiosn where it has taken more than 3 attempts. Two of them are in the desert.

*edit* Thats with N/E and R/M characters

Its totally random i think, i've joined certain groups and aced over missions. Its better to be with people who have done the mission. But they themselves have to be prepared to listen to others. As i've seen many just run out and get annhilated. Sometimes its better with hench. I've found that joining certain groups you just run out and breeze over missions. I hate it when you join someone asking to do a certain mission. Then they end up venturing the opposite direction "can we do this mission first" It wouldnt bother me if they had told me beforehand.

I would add to #7:

Know your BUILD. and make sure that everyone ELSE knows your build too.

I am a Mesmer/Warrior, but most of the time I am not built to be a full caster(though I can revert to Full Caster if needed). I am built as a Melee/Caster Hybrid(Illusion/Axes/Inspiration/FastCasting). I function quite well as a melee damage dealer and can tank "in a pinch". I carry things like Armor Boosting/Damage Reduction Stances(Physical/Elemental Resistance, Mantra of Flame/Frost, etc.), Melee-friendly Self Enchantments(Illusion of Weakness, Illusionary Weaponry) Interrupts(both Melee and spells)and Evasion Stances(Distortion) when I am in my defensive mode, and I carry Health Degen(Conjure Phantasm,Phantom Pain,etc.) and High-Damage Melee Attacks when I am in Damage-Dealing Mode.

I make it a point to let my group know this when I join. just a simple "I am Built for Melee, just FYI" is normally good enough.

we had a Mo/W in our group at thunderhead just a few minutes ago who was obviously not built for Healing as he was right in the thick of the fighting with us Melees, and we were depending on him to heal because he didn't tell us beforehand.

please let people know what KIND of (Insert Profession) you are. Otherwise we may just assume that you are one thing when you are really something else entirely.

I did Thunderhead Keep last evening TWICE. The first time the PUG didn't listen to anyone. They died...then BLAMED me the Good Old Monk. It was depressing.

Then about an hour later I joined another PUG. It was Night & Day. I was stunned that they all said "Wait,Rest..." after any big fight. This to me is the key to any mission. No need to rush. You waste less time doing missions if you hold up for 15-30secs after each battle. I also am getting into the habit of calling all the spells I throw on people. I want them to see what I am doing for them. People do not realize how much you do Heal them. Be it Conditions,Hexes, etc. I was using Mend Aliment & Smite Hex religiously. With Divine Boon it works pretty darn good. Healing Breeze to buy a little time on that character. I would save Word of Healing for anyone lower then 50%. (I would try to wait till 30% to get the Full heal out of it. ) After we compleated the mission I was thanked by most of the group.

The tricky thing for me as a Healer at Thunderhead is the distance between the doors. I ran my buttocks off going back and forth while trying to keep an eye on the King. Only once did a Jade Bow make a bee line for the King. He made it to the bottom of the stairs and was killed.

Good and charismatic leadership can make a good group out of anything.

Thats true Mithie, but you also need good team players who will listen to that leader. Leader is useless if the team have all gone afk or refuse to use his strategy etc etc.

I'm really looking forward to trying the Thunderhead Keep again. Being a Dedicated Healer, this is for me (so far) the biggest challenge and a test of how good the build works in terms of energy management and timing of heals. Not to mention stamina for running back and forth Great fun <3 my monk

Hehe that's why before you hit the enter mission button, you discuss a bit about the mission with your group. If there's a griefer or someone who's acting a bit immature or malicious, you can usually detect him/her right then and there, and boot them.

Getting a good, solid team together is half the mission.

I totally agree with you here. Anyone who can come to a forum to post trash like the OP isn't any better than what they are saying others are. Part of the challenge of the game is playing with other players. Personally I do it all. I will get in pugs (pugs have gotten me rank 2 in HOH) and I will use henchies. Just depends on MY mood and not the players themselves. For you see I'm not trying to "rush the content". And that's the biggest problem I see with braggarts and those opposed to pugs. They are in such a hurry to get to the end, they forget to play the content, enjoy the socialism of the game and "laugh at mistakes". When you can learn to live outside of constant competition and play a game for entertainment, you'll get more out of it and the other people playing it as well.

Hear hear! I agree with you wholeheartedly. Even the occasional terrible player or immature kid adds flavor and spice to my gaming experience. The OP's quoted 90% statistic should be reversed; only 10% of the folks I group with seem to be immature or intentionally malicious, and usually I kick them before hitting the enter mission button.

I disagree that the majority of people are junk. I think the majority of players are somewhere between good and passable. I find that for every four people in a group one is a problem and will result in the mission either being 10 times harder than it should or in outright failure in the mission. As groups get bigger (8 people for Underworld and later areas) the chance that you will get at least one mission-destroying player increases.

When that happens though I often see other players yelling "YOURE ALL IDIOTS." When in fact it is just the one guy ruining it. Thus the impression gets formed that everyone but you is an idiot, which as I stated in the beginning I think is untrue.

Personally I find PUGs extremely frustrating but for some reason I prefer to play with real people than henches. My tricks for getting a good group are:

1) Ask for experienced players. Theres no reason that should actually get experienced players but it does seem to more often than not.
2) I watch the local chat and will not accept or invite people who are spamming LFG, talking in all caps, or saying things like "I am the best warrior, invite me and do what I say and you cant lose."
3) I take my time forming the group, the lack of monks helps this. Impatient people will drop out and they are frequently problem people.
4) If were not in a coop mission and someone is ruining it and not listening to others tell him to stop I will run back to town and kick him and ask everyone else to stay. You will be amazed how much people appreciate that, as long as your not 90% done with the mission.
5) If were in a coop and I cant kick people and we are failing because of one or two guys I will simply ask everyone to remain in the group when we fail and that I will kick the problem people.
6) I never lay out blanket insults. If one person is the problem I dont call the whole party noobs or idiots. Often I dont even insult the problem person, just state to everyone that I will be kicking him when I get a chance.

These are far from infallible and they sometimes require several attempts at a mission to get a good group. So PUGs often frustrate me. But I find it better than henches and I like to see a group come together and smash everything in its path.

It's hard to form a decent PUG with that attitude ... In the beginning I also was thinking that everyone was an idiot, but now I have more or less learned how to pick people for a PUG, to form one that's working. For example if you *know* your team will need ward against melee for a mission, and noone of the 2 eles you have grouped doesn't even know where to get such spell - "KICK" and get a competent player without starting the mission and wasting your nerves. Simple.

There are lots of incompetent players, and there are lots of kids and lots of jerks out there, but but there is certainly a fair share of good and nice players.

Mine is. Don't join guilds that recruit players with "will u join mi guild?" or "XXX GUILD RECRUITING!!! WE HAVE COOL CAPE AND HALL!!!", and don't judge all guilds by the example the 10 year olds set when recruiting into their guilds.

I still try to run a build for the tombs that uses one (primary) monk.
Somehow people flame me newbie it i want less than 3 monks in an 8 man team but they never bring any reasonable argument with it!

EVERYONE says 2-3 monks are ESSENTIAL to keep the team alive, i bring arguments to disprove that, we play, we die relatively quick most of the time (that alone should prove them wrong), and i still have to bring good arguments of using 1-2 monk ponly while YONE demands 2-3 monks without any argument!

There's a good reason to break up the work this way: Redundant (and useless) healing.

If you've got a protection monk and a healing monk, this isn't a problem, but with two healing monks you really need to break it up.

What ends up happening is a tank will end up losing 25% of health, then both monks rush a spell to start the healing process. The first monk to cast heals, with the second monk wasting energy healing the same player when he's already full, meanwhile a second player is losing energy and not being healed in a timely manner because both monks are over-healing the first player.

The way it should work is that one monk take the top half, the second monk take the bottom half, and any player who is under 50% health should be attended to by both monks.

i totally agree with those who replied that just because your a good leader doesnt mean you will have a good group and i totally agree that a good group depends on the other people to actually listen

I don't know, perhaps it's just me, but whenever I hear people say things like that all other players are idiots screwing up the missions for them, I wonder who the idiot screwing up the mission really is.

Also, it is rubbish that hench-teams are better than PUGs. Any random team with even just halfway decent players is worlds better than a hench team, as henches are always low-level and have no secondary class skills.

Before pointing the finger at others, start first questioning if the fault lay with U.

Especially important if u have been playing a warrior all ur life and have never tried a monk. Try a monk, notice how ppl react to u, and how they abuse u for not having unlimited energy.

That being said, many times, henchies work so much better than humans - simply because they follow instructions. In the beginning, due to their low lvl and little life, they tend to suck. But once they reach yak's bend, things start to pick up considerably. In the dessert, with lina around, it SO EASY. Moreover, there are many misssions in the dessert u can either run/kill everyting in your path better with henchies than humans.

Humans = limited by what they think is possible, prone to emotional and rash outbursts.
Henchies = Limited by what YOU think is possible.


The only other ppl who can outperform ur henchies are good guildies - in my guild practically all of us know each other for years - friends before gw - we understand each others style of play and complement each other.

People who say that henchies suck are the same people who have not seriously tried them. Try thunderhead keep with henchies - at least after they patched it - PUGs suck at thunderhead keep because no one wants to listen and everyone wants to run to the gate. With henchies, the mission is easy to do. So easy, its shocking.

If u are stuck in a mission, try henchies, (*bring a res though) - u'd be suprised.