Belly up to the Alpha Roundtable

Yet again, the Gurus are pleased to present something new for those who're visiting our site. Presenting the inaugeral Alpha Roundtable.

Now, we're all aware of the current NDA restrictions (If you're not, it's simple. We can't say anything that you couldn't have seen last weekend. There, told you it was simple.) which prevent us helpful alphas from just logging in game and giving you the latest input on something. So, we've attempted to provide the next best thing by gathering together some of the learned minds of the playtest and setting them to talking about this topic or that topic. Once we're sure that we're not going to get yelled at for telling you about the coolest thing ever that the devs just put in that afternoon like [content deleted] we'll bring that conversation into the public square for everyone to talk about.

For our first time out we decided to stick to something simple and well-known. We asked our alphas to sharpen someone's build to razor's sharpness. Since the effectiveness of Rangers has come up lately, it was decided to discuss a Ranger build. That build was the Warrior's Bane posted by Weezer_Blue which you can view here as well as in the roundtable article. Along the way we hoped the alphas might shed a little light on just why Rangers are so damned good as well as some of their battle tested tricks towards making a Ranger shine and we think you'll be pleased with the results.

So, here's your thread to discuss this roundtable as well as make a request for something you'd like talked about in an upcoming one. After all, the faces may change, but the table's going to around for a while.

Edited to add :

Important note. The "Go" button at the bottom of the article isn't working at the moment, it'll send you back to the site's main page. The drop-down and "next page" link are working correctly, though.

Awesome! Very good read.... Thanks

Very nice Saus! Twas a good time I was pleased with the results at the end. My personal favorite would definitely have to be the Furious Bowman.

Very good read guys! The Snare Sniper's Ice Spikes + Barrage looks sick but I'd probably have to agree with Narc and go with the Furious Bowman. I like the alternative builds presented however, that was a nice touch. Keep up the good work.

Yeah, I think the Furious Bowman really takes the cake, too. That's just a nasty build. To me, it's a bit overly specialized but not any more than your dedicated healer or other character who's put all their eggs in one basket, so to speak. You pluck a bow you have to take the good with the bad with all that. It's got nice damage with Favorable+Conjure+Barrage+Dual and nice disruption with Distracting+Debilitating. It's light on defense but that's what your support characters are for. There possibly a bit more that could be done here. Distracting Shot seems like its not going to have much of a spot in the Barrage+Dual+Debiliating continuous spamming and maybe there's something else that's a little further afield that could be added instead. But Distracting will be excellent for when you really need it so it could just as easily be left in.

The other builds are okay, maybe a little questionable, especially the Asbestos Archer - which was more an example of coming up with a flavor idea and trying to cram a build into it than anything else - but I thought they were a good illustration of just how easily you can twist a character around with just a few simple tweaks. After all, say Weezer has all those skills learned, the only thing limiting him from playing any of those four builds on a given day is his refund points. And even that's not a big issue because for the most part the Elementalist line is there only for the Conjure. Both the Furious Bowman and Asbestos Archer don't really care what line you're using there so you're just slotting skills and swapping equipment. That, to me, is really the beauty of GW; our characters are going to be amazingly flexible.

Besides, I can't let Freyas have all the fun with the wacky builds, can I?

As for the Asbestos Archer with Greater Conflaguration. It does sound like something you'd run in Arena or with a well-coordinated team. Seeing as how it puts all the Warriors at a disadvantage since all of their armor has +XX AL to physical AL.

That was a great read. You've renewed my interest in Rangers. I look forward to the next one.

One thing I'd like to ask is, if you switched the secondary to Monk and all the Air Magic attributes into Smiting, how well would Zealot's Fire work with Barrage? Have you guys tried this before?

I like the idea of having res along for PvE and thought I'd check out the smiting skills to replace Conjure Lightning. Zealot's Fire was the only one that looked promising to me.

Thanks, everyone for the kind words so far.

Right. Well, any war armor except Gladiator's. That's 80AL +1 en. But that would mean someone was actually using Gladiator's and why are you grouped with someone who can't tie their own shoelaces?

Conflagration is a big penalty to any Warrior, true. It's a nifty little trick, though, and one I think can work well. The Ranger's increased elemental protection overall means you can do crazy things like get 115AL without even trying. Conflagration and Drakescale mean you've turned all damage that will interract with armor except for three of the four elemental damages into an annoyance. That's not just half damage reduction, that's more than half as it's past the magic +40AL figure. You can do similar thing with Frostbound armor and Blizzard.

Like you say, you don't want to just head into a match and say "Hey guys, I'm using Conflagration now, sucks to be a war, huh? k thx." But in a more organized team you can really take advantage of it. It's got defnite possibilities, especially as several professions can get +vs. Fire or elemental damage, too.

RaMo are certainly very viable combinations. Like the WaMo they augment their profession's stability with the defensive capabilties of the Monk list.

Going Smiting with one is something I haven't personally tried, I don't think. At least, not recently enough to be very valuable. However, something like Judge's Insight can replace the damage boosting effects of a Conjure. It's a poorer option because it's shorter duration will put more of a drag on your energy pool but that's what you get for looking for offense in a primarily defensive skill list. Zealot's Fire, though, would work awfully with Barrage. As I understand it, Zealot's Fire is triggered when you cast a spell on a target ally. That ally then has a PBAoE Fire damage. That has several problems. Firstly, you don't use Barrage on an ally, you use it on an enemy, it's not going to trigger Zealot's Fire. Second, even if it did, Zealot's Fire requires you to be up close to your enemy, they need to be "nearby". As a Ranger you'll want to stay at range because one of your big advantages is the big reach of your bow.

It's not going to be as good for your damage output as the Elementalist skill list, that's the bottom line. But while Smiting isn't of much help to you a RaMo can still work well. You're just playing a little more defensively than purely offensive.

Warrior's Bane of Blood

(Blood Eagle style)

14 Marksmanship
12 expertise
6 Water Magic

Runes:
Major Marksmaship
Minor Expertise


Read The wind
Conjure Frost
Blurred Vision
Marksmans Wager
Power Shot
Precision Shot
Hunters Shot
Whirling Defense

Basically idea is...

Arena:

Start with Conjure Frost +7 damage
into Read the the wind for around+16-18 damage

Now open with Hunters Shot on the warrior your gonna kill..
Into Powers Shot, Into precisions etc...
Now.. Use Marksmans Wager
Shoot him a few times..
Blurred vision, Hunters etc...
keep adding the damage
switch back to read the wind with full energy
and continue

Using Whirling defense for personal Defense.

I misread Zealot's Fire, thanks for the clarification. I need to read more thoroughly when I try to get good ideas.


One more question. You mentioned in the discussion where 13 Expertise lowered 5, 15, and 25 energy skills to, what does 10 energy end up at? (I hope I didn't miss that too)

clicky

We really need to find a way to insert this link automatically evertime "ranger" is mention in a thread....

14 Expertise / 12 Marksmanship is like a million times better than 12 Expertise / 14 Marksmanship.

Peace,
-CxE

Great read guys, and really enjoy the indepth level you guys go into. How often will you guys do this then ?

I had a build almost exactly like your furious ranger, except I had concussion shot instead of distracting shot. I think you are right that people are learning to remove daze, so I'll switch to the latter.

I had eventually settled on debilitating shot over hunter's shot due to my group build needs, but it was a much harder decision than yours. I assume this means KT's listing for hunter's shot at 5 energy is incorrect?

My attributes were 11 expertise/11 marksmanship/8 air magic/3 beastmastery, for 14 expertise with a major, and the rest minors.

I also didn't know that conjure lightning didn't have AP, that was a good find. Given this, though in my experience air is the least used element (conjurable), I will might switch to water to metagame against silk armor.

After reading Keramon's guide, I had chosen the druid's set; it was the only one that gave extra energy. If hunter's also gives the bonus I'll use that instead.

I think this discussion project is a really good idea and produces superior results. Looking forward to further analyses.

Zrave, if you were running the Furious Archer's evil twin brother from a parrallel dimension, I'd be interested in knowing your experiences for it. Specifically, I'm curious about just how often you were able to get that AoE damage from Barrage and how you were doing on energy in full out assault mode. But, us alphas can't say anything if we try that build for about a month and even just a general impression of how it was working for you would be valuable.

I believe it was, in fact, mentioned when we were discussing the attributes, if only briefly and in passing.

For 5, 10, 15, and 25 energy skills
12 Expertise means 3, 5, 8, 13 or about 50% reduction.
13 Expertise means 2, 5, 7, 12 or about 54% reduction.
14 Expertise means 2, 4, 7, 11 or about 58% reduction.

Ther's percentile reduction but because of rounding (The game seems to round to the nearest odd number when things are in doubt) what you'll actually get is a few plateus. For example, look at the shift from 12 Expertise to 13 Expertise. That's going from 3 energy to 2 energy. A charge from 40% reduction to 60% reduction, in other words. This means there are going to be "sweet spots" where you're getting a bigger benefit than just multiplying the Expertise bonus would imply.

It depends what kind of skills you're using, of course, but the best spots to get at right now seem to be 13 or 14. 13 will reduce 5 energy skills from 3 to 2 energy, 15 energy skills from 8 to 7, and 25 energy skills from 13 to 12 while 10 energy skills remain at 7. 14 will reduce 10 energy skills from 5 to 4 and 25 from 12 to 11 while 5 en and 15 en remain at 2 and 7 respectively. What's really going to matter is how many of what cost skills you're using. If you use a lot of 5 energy skills, going from 13 to 14 isn't the most sensible move as you'll have no tangible benefit unless you're using 10 or 25 energy skills. If, instead, you use a lot of those 10 energy skills then going to 14 is attractive because you get that further 10% cost reduction.

However, to get that high, you're likely going to have to give up something. We used a base 11/10/10 build for the roundtable which is a setup that gives you three nice, high attributes after runes and headgear and even then we needed a major rune to get to Expertise 13. To get to Expertise 14 you're either using a +2 rune for both Expertise and Marksmanship with a +1 Expertise hat or a +3 rune for Expertise and a +1 rune with a +1 hat for Marksmanship. Either way, you're looking at -100 hp to get 4 energy costs for your 10 en skills. There are other ways of getting there, of course, a 12/12/3 build easily turns into 14/13 without any health drop but you also give up 7 ranks in your third attribute. Getting to 14 is not going to be without cost and personally, I'd be happy at Expertise 13. Another -50hp isn't all that big of a deal, really, when you get right down to it, so it's certainly not a bad move I just think point for point, the sweetest spot - especially for a Barrage spamming build - is at 13 rather than 14.

I'll agree with Chuckles, though. Marksmanship is tied to your bow damage. At 12 you're getting about 100% of your listed damage. At 11 you're getting 90% or so and at 13 you're getting 105% or so. A cost of however many AP to get a measly return isn't the best way to allot your points. Pushing Marksmanship past 12 brings increasingly diminishing results. Pushing Expertise past 12, on the other hand, gives some very nice results as you'll deal with rounding and there's no drop off in returns. Expertise always gives you -4 cost reduction, it doesn't trail off like Marksmanship.

The most current, public listing I know of Hunter's Shot has it at 10 energy, 5 seconds recharge. It's not a bad skill, by any means, I just don't think it fit very well with the Ranger build here. Hunter's Shot will deal about as much extra damage as Power Shot for the same energy cost and 1 second less of a recycle time. If you're happy using Power Shot you'll be happier using Hunter's Shot. That's because it also causes Bleeding if it hits someone who's moving. Bleeding isn't that dangerous, but it's another 6DPS or so on top of everything else you're doing. It's also going to be for a pretty long duration, much longer than the recharge on Hunter's is so you'll be just extending the duration of it if you're spamming Hunter's - if you can catch someone moving, of course. So, heads up against Power Shot, it's the winner hands down. For a single target hitter, there's also Penetrating Attack. If you're fighting targets with 70AL or more, it'll do more damage than Power Shot. It's also 5 energy and 3 seconds recharge so you can use it a lot more often.

However, there's also Dual Shot, which we're using with our Ranger builds for the most part. That gives you two shots at 75% damage for 10 energy with a 5 second recharge. Or, 150% of your listed damage which is more than you'll get out of Power Shot and probably Penetrating Attack and Hunter's Shot as well. On top of that, we were planning on using both Favorable Winds and a Conjure (Like you say, whatever one's best given the current meta-game, we can use any of them) which add damage on each and every arrow hit. With Hunter's you get that extra damage once. With Dual you get it twice. So, Dual gets the nod if you're planning on using any damage adds like Orders or Winnowing or Judge's Insight or anything else along those lines.

That's one big stick. The other is Barrage which is 5 energy and 1 second recharge. I'll say that again, 1 second recharge. That means that every other attack is capable of being a Barrage and with high Expertise it's going to cost you next to nothing to do it in. A Ranger has 3 pips of regen, that's 1 energy a second, a 2 or 3 energy Barrage will be at or under their natural regeneration rate given the fact that the time it takes to cast Barrage is the time it takes to pluck a bow and that time is usually around 2 seconds. It adds less damage than Hunter's or Power Shot (I believe it's +14 with Marks 12) but it still adds some damage to each shot by itself since you'll be casting it a lot more often it really adds up. Then, like Dual Shot, Barrage is capable of landing multiple hits. Each and every person you hit with it is getting the full force of your damage adds.

That's two big sticks which are going to be shot as often as possible. Following them closely is going to be a Debilitating Shot (10 energy, 5 seconds). A Debilitating Shot every 6 or 8 seconds is the equivalent of about 3 pips of negative regen (which would be 9 energy in 9 seconds, you're actually above that but it depends on your swing rate which is pretty variable with Tiger's Fury, dfferent bow types, and weapon mods so I'm not going to bother getting much more exact). I don't care what your target is, putting -3 degen on their energy pool is a good thing. And, you'll be getting your normal bow damage with all your damage adds, too.

So, you're going to be spamming Barrage, Dual, and Debilitating before you even get to considering Hunter's Shot. It's a good skill for dealing damage but we already have 3 attack skills which are going to see heavy use. What I look for at that point is not another skill to increase my DPS - I'm not even sure I can fit it in the rotation with those low recycle rates. It depends on the swing rate but if I'm lucky I'm getting close to getting Barrage+Dual+BarrageDebilitating+Barrage+Dual+Barr age+Debilitating+Barrage as infinitly sustainable even with Tiger's Fury and the fastest bow available, in other words, I'm the equivalent of an axe war with 2 hit Cleave, I don't have a lot of space to put things in before I start stepping on my own toes (I'm not sure, I'd have to work it all out but if each attack lasts for about 2 seconds then it's feasable) - I'm looking for something with a bit more utility. My DPS is maxed out, I'm not looking to add another +6DPS, then, I'm looking for something that's going to give me another tool for my toolbelt, expand my capabilities a bit. Remember, I like my builds to cover as many bases as possible. Distracting Shot and Pin Down offer that *something else* that Hunter's wouldn't give this build. What does Hunter's add that you don't already have? Bleeding. What does Pin Down? A target that can't dodge, can't move out of range, can't get to your healer as well, and more. What does Distracting? A skill that's going to prevent someone from rezzing or getting off any other skill they might desperately want as well as the ability to switch to heavy caster denial by moving to spamming Debilitating+Distracting. I'll take the more tactical options, hands down, since I've already got my damage base covered.

Hunter's Shot is definitly in that first or second tier of Ranger attacks but in the builds we were dealing with it's largely forgettable.

Certainly a good attribute setup, I wish I'd thought of that. That's 14/12/8/4 all told and that makes for a decent Tiger's Fury as well as an alright Conjure. Personally, I think you can get by with Beastmastery 2 there and not sacrifice the damage from the Conjure and if energy is a problem it's best to switch to something like a 11/10/8/6 build, which'll drop things from your Conjure as much as 11/11/8/3 but give you an extra second's duration on Tiger's Fury, but it's a good way to go if your sweet spot is that, what, 7 second duration with Beastmastery 4.

Worth emphasizing, then. Only skills that deal lightning damage have armor penetration. Conjure Lightning and that lightning damage mod on your weapon grant no innate ability to bypass armor. Only things like Lightning Stike or Shock do.

I'll have to check on that because when I saw Hunter's armor was +energy I was pretty skeptical myself. That's really good armor if it is and leaves Druid's in the dust. If you're right, then, yes, the armor of choice is Druid's (except for the Asbestos Archer but he'll likely want a set to swap to, in any event.) and not Hunter's.

We're not certain at this point. It was a nice time and everyone involved seems to have walked away happy so we're definitly going to be trying to do it again. It's certainly our intent to make it a semi-regular feature here at the Guru we're just not certain how regular just yet. But, hey, any alphas out there who want to sit in on the next one just get in touch with me because we're starting to plan it out now.

Think you will find the Hunter's set gives +5 and the Druid's Set gives +9.

So yes, the Druid's set gives extra energy at the cost of +15AL vs Piercing Attacks. (in comparison with the hunter's set).

I used Hunter's Shot extensively during this past Beta and it was only 5 energy to cast... with... I dunno how long of a recharge, but it wasn't long at all. It was the 5 energy cost that initially drew me to it, in favour of Dual Shot. (So unless they change things for the next event, it's 5)

For me, I prefer Read The Wind to Favourable Winds, mostly cause I'm not a fan of DP... but to be honest, I really haven't tried it. I just like the fact that a Read The Wind + Hunter's Shot only cost 10 energy (with no Expertise) and had a chance of causing bleeding, and I was shooting faster arrows.

One skill that I'm still unsure about (for recharge time) is Posion Arrow. Anyone use that in the last event? I remember seeing it, in Quarrel Falls but I didn't pick it up. This site says 10 Second Recharge time, while others say 1 Second. I really really HOPE it's 1 second, lol.

The problem with Read the Wind for this build is that it won't affect Barrage and will actually be removed when Barrage is fired. Favorable Winds as a Nature Ritual won't be removed when Barrage is fired.

How long do you find it takes the 5%dp to wear off in either PvE or PvP. Is it before Favorable Winds expires?

The PvP I usually played in didn't last longer than a minute usually, lol. Yeah, I see that Read the Wind wouldn't help this build, now that you point it out... I think that was the reason I chose to not use Barrage (cancelling).

Unfortunatly, I'm not sure if it would wear off before it expires... mostly cause I stayed away from the Nature Ritual skills (only have 3 days to play at a time!). I didn't toy with too many skills that didn't immediatly appeal to me... lol, not a good Beta Tester mentality, but my time was limited, :P If I had more time I know I'd be trying ridiculous combos, just cause that's what I really like to do, but not when I have a weekend to do it in.

/me waits for release

Pity that the ranger was the only build from my 8-man setup that wasn't used due to lack of a player... I leave the floor open for anyone that ran barrage to divulge their experiences :P

Wow. Thank you very very much for your input on my build. I'll be sure to try out all the suggested ones at the end.


I got the complete original build and it was pretty good. Barrage was a lot more useful for PvE than it was for PvP... But... well... this weekend seemed to be a lot more PvE for me (went through all the EAs past LA). It worked nicely in the Tombs - especially when there were several tanks focusing on the same Monk or something like that which can get extremely annoying because then your team has to go from damage output to protecting themselves. It wasn't as warrior-centric as I thought it would be because it ended up being pretty widely used on anything I could shoot at and distracting shot is my choice over concussion any day because it can shut up a flare-spamming elementalist for 20 seconds while you go kill something else.

5% DP isn't much at all, you will get that back very quickly in a PvP match. Plus keeping in mind that you are a ranger you don't position yourself in the front line ready to be charged by warriors. So there is no big initial threat to you.

The other advantage is that Favourable Winds is that it lasts quite a bit longer. However anture rituals affect everyone in the specific game which is a greater drawback for me than DP, because it gives other rangers the same boost. (Correct me if I'm wrong)

Great read guys! I've only been playing the last 2 BWEs and have been a bit of a 'lost soul' (or is that 'newbie' ) when it comes to how to get the most out of a character. the next events will certainly be better PVP for me than it has been so far.

i know you're going to be spammed with requests for a review, so how about working with a mes/nec or a nec/mes? i can't decide which flavor i like better!

cheers!

-Jerry

"Work hard, rock hard, eat hard,
sleep hard, grow big, wear glasses if you need 'em!" -Webb Wilder

im not a huge fan of primary rangers, but that was still a good read.

i dont like rituals cause they effect eveyone on the field though, i think read the wind would be much better, although if barrage is just going to get rid of it, u could always tradeone of those skills in for another. i mean or just use them at differnt times, on another note i relaly liked hunters shot with my warrior/ranger. when i had to go ranger i would bring power shot and hunters shot. both boosted damage and when the enemy is moving bleeding is pretty nice. i prob with a high expertise/marks ranger went super into damage adding marks skills, although guys since were no longer to keen on air u could go warrior for tactics, u could then bring healing signet(incase u need some health) and then frenzy to make your arrows go faster instead of read the wind, and like u said u dont get attacked much so i htink u could use frenzy and get away with it. that may work then u could use barrage and frenzy together.

Saus - the recycle times are high enough when you have Tiger's Fury running that you'll need a 3rd attack skill. Without it you can go Barrage/Dual/Barrage/Debilitating, but with it Dual and Debilitating won't recycle within 3 bow shots so you work in Hunter's. Hunter's is the best choice of what's left over because it's cheap, it does nearly as much damage as a Power Shot, and it will get you some incidental bleeding sometimes. It's due for a nerf to 10 energy, but until they do that might as well abuse it.

Beastmastery you pump to 3 so that you can get to 4 with a minor rune, since that's the 7 second breakpoint on Tiger's Fury. Now that Expertise affects stances that skill is absurd - 4 energy for a 33% increase in attack speed, with no real drawback? Gimme. You lose, what, 2 points on a Conjure from doing this? Oh no.

Also, the real combo here that you didn't talk about is Zealous Bow + Barrage. +1 energy per hit when you're attacking up to 5 targets with a 2 energy skill = energy regen. Barrage isn't just a damage machine, it's your energy engine too.

Definitely use Conjure Frost to fight against Silk, as that's unconditionally the best Monk armor now. I'd rather have the bonus when shooting at Monks than on the occasions when I hit someone with Hydromancer armor.

Hunter's isn't +energy anymore, it's just +vs. Piercing. I'd go with that on chest/legs and Druids on hands/feet. Hunter's is clearly the best because you're already set against elemental damage, going overkill against a particular elemental type isn't nearly as valuable as shoring up a weakness. Rangers are popular, so it's a no-brainer.

Basically your core is Barrage, Dual, Debilitating, Hunter's, Tiger's Fury, Conjure. Supplement it with a couple more skills of your choice (I prefer Distracting Shot and Pin Down), and run with it on 11+3/11+1/8/3+1.

Peace,
-CxE

This site (which I use to reference most things) has Hunter's at +1 energy per piece. I believe the Ranger armors were updated, but I'll have to assume that's an error because we're the only ones that say it.

No one's gotten around to the Ranger skills here yet, I believe, least of all me. KT has it at 5, GWOnline has it at 10. Both updated on the 18th. I'll take your word for it and say it's down to 5 because I believe it was 10 previously. That does make it better, a lot better, but I still maintain that for most of these build Dual Shot is markedly better and as long as you have Dual Shot and Barrage what you get from Hunter's Shot is not worth what you'd have to leave behind to have it.

For comparison's sake, where Hunter's is ahead is energy, at 5 energy to start with dropped to 2 with Expertise 13, and a recharge of 5 you'll actually gain energy spamming that as opposed to the 10 energy (really 5 with Expertise 13) Dual Shot where you'll just be breaking even over those same 5 seconds (actually, attack times and all mean you'll come out a little ahead of regeneration because you'll spend a second or two attacking). But Dual Shot does more damage. Hunter's is your bow's damage +24 +your additional damage sources. Dual is dmg x 150% +your adds x2. With a decent bow you're ahead there with Dual.

As for Read the Wind vs. Favorable Winds, there are benefits and drawbacks to both sides. Favorable Winds will boost any archer on the field while RTW only works for you. RTW will add more damage to your shots with high Marksmanship than Favorable Winds will. But, Favorable Winds will last for 120 odd seconds while RTW will last for 12 seconds. And that's really why you use Favorable (Not here, here you avoid using RTW because it's a prep and Barrage will strip your preps off every time you use it.). It's up for 2 minutes and you can forget about it. At a cost of 5 energy with a 5 second casting time it costs you only that 5% DP to use as you'll regen 5 energy by the time you've finished casting it. RTW, on the other hand, will need to be recast every 12 seconds and cost you 2 energy (With 13 Expertise) every time you do it. Not that big of an energy burden to bear, all things considered, but a lot more than 5 energy every 2 minutes. But what really hurts with RTW is the mere fact that you have to spend those few seconds - it's a 2 second casting time - each and every 12 seconds. That's time you're spending buffing up your attacks and not attacking. RTW actually hurts your DPS nearly as much as it helps it because you'll spend so much time maintaining it.

The Death Penalty cost of a ritual doesn't overly bother me. That's a loss of something like 24hp and 1~2 energy. On a character with a lot of natural defense with a base 70AL+30AL armor and a longer energy bar thanks to Expertise. You don't want to keep casting that ritual over and over or load up with 5 or 6 on your skill bar but you can easily afford to cast just the one. Especially because you can wipe out DP. If you can get a morale bonus that'll wipe things out, such as in GvG, and even if you can't you can always go out and kill a few things to eliminate your penalty. And what're these builds for if not for killing things quickly and efficiently? PvP or PvE, you have two minutes of increased offense to get rid of your deficit and that's plenty of time, if you ask me.

It was indeed. Re-read the first paragraph or so of the roundtable transcript because it's the first thing about the build I mentioned. There are no secondary runes so it's a mistake. The build posted in the roundtable article was taken exactly from this post by Weezer, warts and all. It's corrected on the version of Weezer's build in our database but I figured I'd leave it in so I could mention that such a thing was impossible in case anyone was confused by it.

Oh no. Ensign'll hand me up by my toes if we do a nec/mes build. No offense to you - I've known several fine nec/mes or mes/necs and even played a few myself - but, at least at one point, it seemed like the first thing anyone did when logging onto a GW forum was to post a nec/mes build. They just got kinda off-putting after awhile.

That said, it's not a bad combination. The problem is that you'll be relegating yourself largely to a supporting role as both Mesmer and Necro have problems dealing damage consitently. Most Mesmer damage is reliant on situational factors that are hard for you to control like Backfire or Fragility. And most Necro damage is second-rate and what's not requires health sacrifices or corpses to use and that can make things difficult. You won't be putting people down quickly, you'll be either supporting your team or setting the enemy up for some pain. Mesmer and Necro can both be very good at disruption although their skill lines don't really synergize all that much. Still, things like Mailaise with Power Leak or Lingering Curse on a Monk-hating Mesmer (Hmm, can you tell I really like the Curse line?) can work very well.

As for which way to go, neither primary attribute offers much to die for. Necromancer skills, the good ones anyway, don't have the huge casting times of the Elementalist list so they don't benefit from Fast Casting as much. And Mesmer already includes a lot of energy management so you don't really need to rely on Soul Reaping. And neither has much in the way of skills linkd to it, so that's not a factor. The choice really comes down to which sets of armor you like better (Personally, I'd go Necromancer for things like the Necrotic set oer the Mesmer choices) and which of your attributes need boosts from runes and/or headgear more.

I'll take your word for it, but if that's the case, what I'd work in would be Distracting Shot. Somewhere they're going to be trying to use a skill and or make an attack or something...

Still, if you were really going for all out damage, I could see dropping something like Pin Down in favor of Hunter's Shot.

But, then, my concerns become whether or not you can actually afford all those skills. It depends how fast you can attack, of course, but two 2 energy skills, and two 5 energy skills all being used within five or six seconds sounds like you'll be running at a significant deficit. Granted, you can keep it up for a long while starting with your 23~24 energy pool but at what point would you actually be attacking *too* fast? The point of a Ranged is low-cost sustained ranged damage, isn't it?

That's why you have a zealous bow. With the attack spped + Dual + Barrage you'll effectively be at 4-5 pips of regen (depending on how many targets you're hitting with barrage). You should be able to last the entire length of a skirmish and not have any concerns at all about energy.

Oh no. That simply couldn't be the case. Equipment in Guild Wars is balanced just right, there are no uber items that will enable you to run a strategy that wouldn't be possible without that item nor any items that put those who don't use them at a significant disadvantage.

Yes, a Zealous bow is definitly called for here, preferably one with a +speed modifier, if that's even possible. We kinda glossed over equipment, but that was a point I wanted to make during the roundtable. Zealous+Barrage = goodness.

So, alright, we want Hunter's Shot, yet with a a Zealous bow and Barrage we're less concerned with energy, the duration on Tiger's Fury isn't such an issue and 'd rather have the 10 in my Element over the additional second duration for Tiger's Fury with a 6 in Beastmastery - except if it's screwing with our attack patten at 6 seconds rather than 7 - Tiger's Fury is instant cast and matches up with it's recharge already even unlinked, so if energy isn't going to be a problem, why not get that extra +1 or +2 to damage? I'd still go with a 11/10/10/1 base.

So, what's about this build, then :

Angrier Archer

Exp {P} : 13 (11+2) or 14 (11+3)
Beast : 2 (1+1)
Marks : 12 (10+2)
Element of Choice : 10
APS : 200
APU : 0

Barrage {E} (Marks)
Debilitating Shot (Exp)
Distracting Shot (Exp)
Tiger's Fury (Beast)
Dual Shot (Marks)
Favorable Winds (Marks)
Hunter's Shot (Marks)
Conjure Whatever (Ele)

Druid + Hunter's set
Zealous shortbow (or whatever's got a good RoF)
Major/Superior Exp, Minor Marks, Beast Runes
+Marks Mask

haha... I'll never got my hands on a Zealous Grip. Those things are extremely rare... buying one would cost me everything down to my greyish boxers! Man... No more break-dancing lessons either. I'm going to really have to cut back. But yeah... It's an über (ü = althold 0252onnumpad releasealt) item that changes a battle completely.

I agree with you, but for this kind of build only. If you were running a Ranger Primary that used skills that were not always Bow-Specific you'd be wasting a decent amount of that 120 seconds and still receive the full 5% DP. In my experience, 2 seconds, near the middle of the battle, is not THAT long. It actually is quite fast and it's pretty specific (and cheap). I can cast it, get off a few shots and then use some of my other skills that aren't only for bow attacks... meanwhile, I have no lasting penalty to worry about. It's become almost second nature while playing. Casting Read the Wind as the enemy approaches, and using Hunter's Shot + a normal bow attack in between the Hunter's Recharge. Now, I don't have Conjure Frost or Barrage, so the situations are totally different.

My point is that Hunter's Shot is a bit more flexible, in my opinion... but again, I have no experience with Favourable Winds, lol... I'm not as lucky as some of you who can test infinitly every conceivable build whenever you like, :P

Good article by the way.

Distracting Shot should make the cut, it just isn't part of the Barrage/Debilitating/Dual/Hunter's pattern. You use it when you think you can hit someone with it, not as part of any regular cycle.


Well, let's do that then. Tiger's Fury drops you down to a 1.5 second refire from a 2 second refire (33% faster) For 7 seconds. So a full Barrage/Dual/Barrage/Debilitating/Barrage/Hunter's cycle is 6 shots in 9 seconds. Let's use Tiger's Fury at 6 seconds, like you're suggesting, which makes it something you re-use every four shots at a cost of 4 energy per six seconds or 6 energy per 9. Your bow attacks cost 2 for Barrage and Hunter's, 4 for Debilitating and Dual, for a net cost of 2*4 + 4*2 = 16 energy per cycle. So overall you're spending energy at a rate of 22 energy per nine seconds.

Now, if you're just living on normal regen you'd get back 9 energy per 9 seconds, for a net expenditure of 13 energy per 9 or 1.44 energy per second, meaning that you'll drain a pool of 27 energy (25 + 1 gloves + 1 boots) in around 19 seconds.

Toss in a Zealous Bow, which really makes this build hum, and your natural regen drops to 6 energy per nine seconds, but, assuming that you hit two targets with Barrage, you get back 6+2+1+1 = 10 energy per nine seconds from your energy gain bow, for 16 total energy regen per nine seconds. That drops your net expenditures to 6 energy per nine seconds, meaning you can run this loop continuously for 40 seconds before having to stop and recharge.

If Barrage can hit three different targets, then you get back 9+2+1+1 energy per nine from your bow, dropping your net expenditures to 3 energy per nine seconds and letting you keep on refiring for 80 seconds nonstop. Of course, if you can hit 4+ targets with each Barrage you've gone infinite.

Also, if you do run out of energy you just drop the Tiger's Fury. Then you're spending 16 energy on your six bow attacks, but get back 8 per 12 (slower attack rate) from regen and still 10 from your attack skills - assuming two hits from Barrage - equalling eighteen, meaning you're now regenerating energy. Thus the basic plan is ~30-40 seconds of straight skill spam to drain your energy, then losing the speed buff and just continuing to pound away until you're ready to crank it up again.

Attacking too fast? Nah, I don't think so.


Hell right I will. What would be the point, anyway? 99% of Mesmer/Necro builds aren't *supposed* to be good, they're a starving artist's stab at creativity, with the medium being an awful Guild Wars character. Evaluating one would merely pervert the original vision.

99% of Mesmer/Necro build evaluations start with either 'drop Necro for...' or 'drop Mesmer for...'. It's a character combination that has a hell of a time soloing, is last picked for PvE squads, is never what someone wants in PvP. It's a gorgeous pair of breasts on a third degree burn victim - fun to stare at but ultimately just a bunch of wasted potential.

I love Mesmers, I love Necros. I hate the combination. You'd think that it would give you the tools to excel in any situation, but in reality you end up without the tools to ever be practical in any situation. You manage your health and energy, make your opponent's life miserable, put yourself is a winning position, and are completely incapable of capitalizing upon it.

There are some very specific builds for niche situations where you want a Mesmer/Necro. Most of the time, though, you just don't want to be wasting a slot on such an inflexible character.

Peace,
-CxE

No one's been replying to this and I had a point to make/question to ask and I really want to say it... so I'm going to.

With Favourable Winds, if Rangers are becoming so popular, isn't there a chance that the other team will have a Ranger who casts it for you? Sure that's a chance to take, but it's something to think about... I think so anyway. Maybe I'm just a little greenhorn, but even in 4v4, I've seen Natural Winds cast (by the other team) a decent amount.

it happens occasionally but usually not at the time you yourself would want it cast. i usually see it cast once i'm out of the picture or i'm not much of a threat or most of all when they have more rangers than my team. even if it affects everyone, having the control over it is well worth the DP.

Yes, someone else might cast Favorable Winds. In that case, you've just saved yourself 5 seconds and 5% DP. But you can't count on someone to do it for you. That's why, if you need it, and these builds sorely need it (The key here is that we're mostly using bows that attack as quickly as possible, those bows usually have poor arcs or flight times to their arrows, even though you pluck your bow every so often it takes a bit of time for each bow to reach its target. What RTW or Favorable Winds does is to shorten that flight time making your arrows strike faster because they'll spend less time travelling. That's a big aid when you're trying to time an interrupt like Distracting Shot or you're catching a group of moving enemies who've strayed too close together.), then you'll want to bring it yourself to cast in case no one else does. The exception is if you already know the exact build your opponent is using and they're going to be using Favorable Winds in it. Then you leave it behind and find soemthing else.

In short, you can plan for your enemy's actions, you can count on them moving or attacking or casting spells, for the most part and plan accordingly. But you can't really plan for their skills, for the specific steps they're going to take and when they're goign to take them. Not every Ranger will want Favorable Winds, not every build will benefit from it so you cannot rely on someone else to bring the lynchpin of your strategy.

Yeah, I understand that, I was juts putting it out there... the chances are as good as any... which isn't THAT good.

If anything, you could wait and see if the Enemy casts it before you do, to save yourself the trouble... Again, this is all situational at best.

Besides, I just wanted some attention... :P j/k