Useless Elites

Ferocious Strike- This skill's fine once all of the other things wrong with beasts are fixed.

Practiced stance- It's great when combined with choking gas. Fits into no other build.

Warrior's end is one of my favorite warrior elites. I prefer this and battlerage to make the rest of my bar better.

Cleave is nice because it's 'another' adrenal skill. Since these fill up independently, it's a good skill to use if you just have a ton of adrenal skills. It's power comes from it not replacing another skill, but adding yet another to your bar.

The skills I think are trash..

All of the mind ele elites except for shock.

Ineptitude and signet of midnight- Basically arena skills that are trash in 8 on 8.

Keystone- We all know this is crap.

Unyielding aura- Vengeance is better.

Healing hands- Needs a recharge reduction.

Restore conditions- Too expensive, and martyr's too good.

Shield of deflection- Too expensive compared to ward, aegis, guardian

Feast of corruption- For a pbaoe, it just doesn't do enough.

plague signet- With all of the other great condition removal out there, this isn't worth bothering with.

grenths- arena and lord sniping skill, but crap other than that.

Flourish- Needs to be a shout, having a cast time on this is retarded. It should be moved to tactics to allow a r/w (who it would be best on) to possibly use it.

Escape- Good for running, but warriors do this better anyway. Compare this to charge (a fast recharging shout that effects all allies and allows use of a stance) and this skill looks even worse.

Dwarven battle stance- Too short, costs too much, and it's a stance. There are much better ways to interupt targets, warriors can't afford to use this crappy interupt.

Skull crack- Same as dwarven. Concussion shot is far superior to this. This needs an upgrade somehow.. cost less, does bonus damage, knock's down, etc.

How many warriors out there only carry 2 attack skills.. seriously you will most likely be carrying penetrating blow, AND executioner's strike, AND the elite (either cleave or eviscerate)...

Yes, warrior's endurance is kind of a useless elite with the energy gain limit, but shield of regeneration, certainly not. Use complete adrenline-based warrior skills, along with cheaper monk skills and it's great. +40 armour is a big deal, and with the healing as well makes it powerful, but VERY underrated.

Well skills are elite because of all sorts of gametypes, not just 8v8 in Tombs or GvG. They want to keep everything sane afterall.

Healing Hands is a skill that's elite solely because of the WaMo. Because of his armor this thing is basically always a full heal. Of course in PvP the self-defending WaMo isn't particularly relevant. Gladiator's Defense falls into the same category - it's a solid PvE skill where you want to tank, but in PvP the skill simply isn't that good.

Word of Healing is decent - not spectacular, but decent. There are certainly worse elites to carry and it's an amazing heal during emergency situations. But generally we want something great in our elite slot, not something decent, so Word gets left behind.

Ferocious Strike is actually a pretty good elite for Warrior/Ranger combos with pets. Any weakness of the skill is a consequence of how bad that combination is.

Only problem with Practiced Stance is that the preparations that you really want to use it with are elite. Right now it's basically a one trick pony with Choking Gas. In fairness, that one trick is better than a lot of people give it credit for. But it's an incredibly narrow skill as things stand.


A lot of the rest of these aren't really bad as far as effects go, they're just underpowered. Look at Shield of Regeneration / Shield of Deflection, for example - not only are they elite, but they're so bloody expensive that I'm not even really tempted to use 'em. Shield of Regen is mediocre at 15/1, and Shield of Deflection was decent but unspectacular once they nerfed it to 10/2 - and then they killed it by making it 15/2. The effects are great but they're just too expensive and slow to really go nuts. Plus, you know, Nature's Renewal.

Cleave is another one of those that is just underpowered right now. When comparing it to Eviscerate the right ratio is 5:8, not 4:7. You need to get adrenaline on the skill, then use it, which drops you back down to 0, making the whole cycle take one more attack than the adrenal cost. So you do the math based on that and Cleave does +5.2 damage per attack while Eviscerate does +5.25 damage per attack at 16 Axe, plux Eviscerate spikes better, plus it plays better with other adrenal skills, plus it adds Deep Wound - I'd rather run 2x Eviscerate than an Eviscerate and a Cleave, because Cleave is that much worse.

Then there's the stuff that isn't really bad, but doesn't really have a use right now. I'm looking at Flourish. If there were a bunch of good energy based attacks with medium-long cooldowns that you'd want to spam, Flourish would simply be awesome. Those don't exist, though, and if you use Flourish you're trying to time it to actually make it recharge skills, often when they have one second left...it's not a bad effect, the skills just don't exist for it yet.

Warrior's Endurance has a great effect, too, giving a Warrior a ton of energy. Trouble is, of course, that there aren't a lot of energy skills that you want to put on a Warrior, and stopping to cast spells interferes with the strength of Warrior's Endurance. The bigger problem is that Warrior's Endurance has a downtime, so if you do build that energy-based character you're going to have 10-15 seconds when you simply can't do much. I still really don't know what to make of this skill.


Of course there are always a few skills that are simply utter shit and there's not much you can do about them. I'm looking at Keystone Signet, Mind Freeze, and Unyielding Aura. Most 'bad' elites are simply mediocre when the standard is so high for a skill you only get one of, but these three skills are so bad it's embarassing.

Peace,
-CxE

Shield of Deflection: I'd use this on focused allies. It has a very nice cooldown, but its 2 seconds cast time is hard to swallow with Nature's Renewal in play. So, Shield of Regeneration for me.

Mind Burn: I only find this useful if one were to spread its lengthy On Fire condition. Incendiary Bonds is a hex that takes 2 seconds (tough with Nature's Renewal in play).

Mind Shock: I'd use this if there were another aeromancer in the party using Lightning Surge. Mind Shock is also nice for its cast speed. Lightning Orb can miss. Chain Lightning would probably have been used at this point already and awaiting recharge. Still, one needs more energy for the knockdown.

Practiced Stance: I often use this in PvE when I rush some friends. Hehe. I needed a stance for my bow anyway.

Punishing Shot: I love this skill when using an interruption configuration. I would use this with Savage Shot and Distracting Shot and Debilitating Shot. Then you can save Distracting Shot for more important skills, while you interrupt the rest with this.

Cleave: It is nice for the low-adrenaline requirement. I would alternate this with Penetrating Blow. With For Great Justice, is that after every two hits? Even better with an attack speed modifier.

I would have to agree with that list . Also kind of funny you did all those calculations ZD, and they're wrong .

Unfortunately a list of bad elites is fairly pointless, except as a point of discussion.

Since you can only have one on your bar at a time, you're really looking for a list of the best of the best.
It's like looking at the roster for an all-star team with 90 people on it, but you can only play 8 of them at once, and you've decided to focus on the 10 worst guys on the team.

Because really, that's what an elite is supposed to be. It's your all-star skill. Why would they be GOLD and RARE otherwise?

Seriously though, the bad ones should never see the light of day- you probably never get past #20 on the list, unless you're looking at a niche build.

PVE considerations aside, but it shouldn't require a ton of effort and strategic innovation to make a build work in PVE.

Some of the bad elites are the ones that can be sort of replaced by normal skills but although some are bad, they have their good uses on conditional times.

Some of the skills in your list aren't bad, I can understand if your relating it only to PvP but what skills may not be too usefull in PvP could be equally great for PvE like healing hands, most farming builds center around that.

When doing cleave/evisc comparisons its probably important to factor in strength bonuses. I wouldn't agree with factoring in other skills etc. though.

i am not wasating my time to prove Meeker wrong.
Its easy enogh to let it be done by others...

Cleave + Tiger fury is massive DPS. Eviscerate is a much better spike damage finisher. It depends on what you want to do.

It's good if you are using a Dark Aura build because it makes sacrificial skills cost 1/4th of the original health cost.

Ha, the best Ranger energy management skill, and it has pretty good damage boost. Useless? Ha, No.

Warrior's Endurance has it's uses, but not on your Wa/Mo clone #469.
Think.

Marksman's Wager?

+25 damage / 8 seconds = 3 dps. That's on a caster. That totally owns Melandru's Arrows +25 damage a shot and bleeding.

Also, it requires you to have a pet, which is the equivilant of a warrior skills requiring you to not have armor.

Sure, if what you want to do is worse sustained + spike damage, grab cleave.
While I'm here maybe someone can shed some light on why I keep seeing the over-used rationalization: "It depends on the build." It's repeated even when an objective numerical analysis is done showing the exact opposite, and I can't understand how the ignorance persists. We're doing our best to educate people here; try opening yourself up to learning about the game while you're here.
There is a clear winner in this situation. See above for the data. If some particular point is unclear to you (e.g. how the data was obtained), please feel free to ask. Stop the blythe rationalizations of bad skill choices.

*Edit*
The energy gain from ferocious strike is quite good at high levels of beast mastery, and doesn't run the risk of costing you 10 energy every time you miss.
The damage on ferocious strike is fine- in fact Pet Attacks are better than their weapon line equivalents across the board.
Don't forget that in addition to Ferocious Strike you can use a Prep and your Power attack of choice (penetrating, dual, hunter's, etc..).

No, I'd say Ferocious Strike is a great elite that just hasn't seen its time yet. If the developers improved Pet controls and the removal of Charm Animal's dead space it would open a lot of people's eyes- at least the people paying attention.

The problem with Marksman's Wager is that you NEED to be invested heavily in another line to expend your energy in a hurry. You'll be over-full if you try using it to fuel your ranger attacks, but you can't go nuts and use it on elementalist attacks either.

For axe spike dmg, its always been executioners strike + evisecrate for me.

Also don't fancy Ferocious Strike as the best energy management skill, its pretty crazy taking a pet into tombs these days....

Aye the only time I really enjoyed Mind burn was when I captured it, because at the time I also had Glyph of Energy (prevents exhaustion) and Arcane Echo. With both elites on the tool bar and Arcane Echo mind burn was ALOT of fun. Too much so and that is probably why its an elite

Aeero is right. But sure there are some elite skills that even I cannot combine that way so to take their best effect (compared to other skills).

Anyway there are some skills that are A LOT better for non primary class than their primary. Keep that in mind while reading them - and imagine that skill at other classes. For example (this is non elite skill) - Fear me. You can put it in most classes if you have free slot and since the skill is shout and cost adrenaline (your only adrenal skill) you can pump it for free in the battle and all nearby enemies will be hindered for little.

1) About the skill escape - it is dodge and run skill in 1. Good for relic runner and not only. Great retreatment skill vs physical/melee dealers. Many warriors use some skills that are good when you run or move and if you begin running they will activate them - and give you much dmg and knockdown, but they do not have "awlays hit" prefix, so you might run succesfully. Also sometimes they activate unblockable/evedable skills but you can run with this skill again, since they will have to activate their run skill to keep up. Also 15 secs duration is not that little.

The only drawback escape has is 1) it is elite and many people LOVE to have dmg elites or similar than "pasive elites" 2) as every run/defense skill this has 60 secs cooldown.

2) Punishing shot is a little upgraded power shot. It is not useless, but most of the original builds have other elite on it's place. With other interupting skills it can deliver some hindering in a row + delivering dmg as one dude said above.

3) Practiced stance biggest benefit is with Choking gas. WIth other stances is ~40% of that.

4) Crippling shot is usefull if don't have much marksmanship since it is always maxed.
5) Melandru's reseliance is very usefull skill, just not one of those "pump and kill".
6) Ferociuous strike is the best pet attack there is, also good with warrior/ranger since it pumps adrenalin up.

I have to say that is a pretty bad list... most of those skills can be use just fine... it is just whether u take the time to research them...

narrow down the list a bit more plz...

Where'd you get the +25 damage from marksman's wager from? Melandru's arrows is one of the most underused skills i've seen. Maybe it's NR, but in random, no-one spirit spams and everyone is loaded with enchantments. I myself have been absolutely slaughtered by another ranger using it on me...

If I ever see an accurate mathematical equation for this, I'll be sure to jump on your anti-cleave bandwagon. I've yet to see anything near accurate, and there are situations that would change the calculation that are simplied by 'it depends on the build'. The 5/8 thing is crap since you're not considering adrenal buffs. No calculation I've seen (and certainly none in this thread) include the strength bonus tacked on to attacks that will fire more with cleave than eviscerate, or include how it modifies a certain build's attack chain and raises the overall dps (which skills are recharged when you're using other attacks, how many normal attacks the chain allows, etc). Since we do have all of the 'depends on the build' info that is left out of these mundane equations (that people try to pawn off as conclusive evidence that cleave is indeed crap), we simply counter it with 'depends on the build' because it.. does. If you don't like that response, come up with something better than 24/5 & 42/8 because that's oversimplified crap (or objective numerical analysis to others apparently) that nobody should bother paying attention to. I hope that adequately explains why you're seeing those responses, and feel free to learn something yourself.



Melandru's is nice for the bleeding, that's all. The prep from kindle isn't blockable, adds similiar damage, and doesn't have conditional damage.

I wasn't suggesting they were similiar, other than that they were both preps. That bonus damage isn't that impressive on melandru's, but the bleeding can be useful.

Eviscerate's certainly better for spiking, I don't think there's any need to discuss that. I do think cleave comes out better in overall dps often times, although the value of dps vs spike is certainly debatable. Adrenal buffs would not make eviscerate better because cleave would again charge other skills if you're getting more than 1 per hit.

That's not impressive. It goes through healing seed, that's it's only advantage. It's broken by protective spirit, destroyed by shield's up and guardian. Kindle isn't, it's damage is separate, so protective spirit doesn't bother it, and it's not blocked, so guardian and shield's up (or it's armor) don't bother it either. And again, you're only getting that damage in situations.. a situation you're trying to remove from them (the target having enchants).

You can only include the deep wound if no other warriors are applying it. And again, you're just excluding the rest of the bar or what other people are using. Removing those conditions is going to give you faulty data. It's not just a straight 24/5 & 43/8 equation. It's not the ratio I'm talking about, but the fact that you can continue to charge your other skills while using it. Compare the attack chain's dps, not the individual skill... that will give a more accurate dps measure. When you have buffs that allow adrenal attacks to charge each other, having more adrenaline attacks is of great benefit.. the more the better.. and this is where cleave wins.

These simple equations don't translate in game. It's nice to try to break it down, but you'd have to add more factors and give the conditions in which it's better. Just blanket statements like 'eviscerate's always better' like you guys are suggesting, isn't accurate. I imagine cleave could use a slight buff, to be better under more conditions and situations.

"Seriously though, the bad ones should never see the light of day- you probably never get past #20 on the list, unless you're looking at a niche build."

You know, I used to play "Magic: the Gathering" which has the same basic strategy as GW, except for mouse-feast. In magic, there were lots of cards that were completely useless... untill someone found a creative way to use them and won a world championship. It's not cookie cutter builds that win, it's the unexpected.

Niche builds are what we all should be looking for, me thinks!

Healing Hands is perfect if you have 10 in healing, and Warrior's Endurance is good for those warriors that need energy, you just need something in Stregth that's all.

I gave up magic pretty early without learning any of its complexities, but I'm familiar with the game. My understanding is that the best players play strikingly similar decks while a few "rogues" attempt to break the stranglehold of power decks with different strategies. Still, the power decks dominate, and if a rogue deck can dominate it becomes a power deck.

Still, I'm perfectly willing to admit my shortsightedness- I don't see how using Escape as your elite will help you win anything, let alone a world championship. Heck, we don't even have a world championship yet!

While your point is well taken- good strategies dominate and new strategies are developed that prey upon the dominant ones using unexpected cards(skills). That doesn't change my point though- some Elites are plain bad, and defending them as something with "hidden potential" doesn't help anyone. You wont hurt Escape's feelings by calling it a bad skill in PVP- not when it has to compete with Melandru's Arrows, Oath Shot, Barrage, and every other elite skill available to you.

Finally, I think we have to establish what the good elites are before we can start looking at the other elites for unexpected effects. My feeling is that the "hidden potential" defense muddies the waters for most people who come here to learn what the good skills are. Sure, you may eventually be proven right, but first we have to go through the process of identifying the "best" before they can be usurped by the "surprises".

That's fine if the defense doesn't have actual reasons, and it's just some overly vague response that that particular person probably uses when discussing any skill.

But, you were talking about cleave. Not escape. And you were using really simple math as some sort of 'end of discussion' evidence on why eviscerate > cleave, at all times. That wasn't a good education for anyone reading this thread that accepted that as gospil.

And speaking of escape, it does suck.. but it does have it's unique attribute. A running skill that combines a 75% block. It's recharge time is severely too long, but the basis of the skill, block + speed buff, is alright and does warrant elite status. And with flag running being a prominent thing in gvg, it does have it's pvp uses, although limited. If you're wrong, and escape's feelings were actually hurt.. hopefully that appeased it some.

Melandru's Resilience is obviously useful for a primary ranger. But for a Monk/Ranger, it can be very useful. eg: Draw Conditions + Melandru's Resilience = Energy. And it's a stance, so it can't be ripped or anything. If only Martyr wasn't elite.

... But I'd probably still take Energy Drain over that combo, as it's conditional (no pun intended) and not as offensive.

Actually, the quote he referred to had no mention of cleave in it. It wasn't until my next post that cleave was brought up.
I'm not looking to turn this into a Cleave vs Eviscerate debate, because we already have had those on the boards. I'm not saying that Cleave is a horrible elite either- but the usefulness of eviscerate surpasses cleave in spades. I don't think the math is overly simplistic either- no one has come upwith a reason why cleave would be superior in an alternate, undiscovered strategy.
My gripe is that the "hidden potential" justification hurts more people than it helps. It's a cop-out, a way of saying you still believe X despite being unable to show why it's useful.
I'm not really worried about people who think everything written here is the absolute truth- so much crap gets written it's mind-boggling, and as a reader you have to realize that and filter the useful info from the crap. Finding a numerical analysis they can follow and refer back to isn't going to help someone who jumps on the latest bandwagon- because as you've seen people post junk with numbers it all the time.
"Hidden potential" and the unwillingness to think through the analyses written up are the same kind of lazy. If you can't be arsed to think through something yourself then you don't *know*.
I hope that makes my position clear.

Ehh... they've said they're going to merge Charm Animal with Comfort Animal or something?! (and improve pet controls)

Actually, in MTG, it's the modified cookie-cutter decks that win most of the time.

Flourish is an excellent skill when used correctly. Aura of the Lich has a very useful purpose as well.

I haven't heard anything of the sort. I meant that improving the pet AI would help pets tremendously. I don't know of any plans to do so.

Edited my earlier post to clarify.

I agree that it's a cop out most of the time, where people haven't actually put any thought into it. As for a strategy where cleave is superior, I thought I pretty much explained what situation makes cleave better for dps.

If pets are significantly improved with AI, controls, comfort animal, etc... there will have to be nerfs to be skills. I still hope these happen, but pet skills are generally superior in every way to bow skills.. energy, recharge, +damage.. all better with the pet skills. Hopefully they'll do it anyway though.

Keystone Signet's not all that bad, ESPECIALLY if you use it along with Mantra of Signets (and Inscriptions).

Imagine that combo: use your signets (except Keystone), Mantra of Signets, Keystone Signet, (Mantra of Inscriptions if you took it), us your signets, Keystone Signet, then use your signets another time.

So you just used each of your signets 3 times, and if you took Mantra of Inscriptions, it won't be long before you can do that again. With Signet of Weariness, it's -27 energy for your target and the nearby enemies. With Leech Signet, it's 3 interrupted actions (not only spells!). With Signet of Humility, it's three enemies without their Elite.

And imagine what you could do with other Monk signets!

So no, Keystone is not all that useless, but it's only good in a dedicated signet build.

Some people forget that Cleave triggers STREGHT armor penetration, so in stead of +31 damage it will do (with 10str) +40dmg vs a warrior with AL85

I just use Cleave+Dismember, dismember for spike, then cleave when deep wound is gone-->cleave (as a W/r Tigers fury ownz like this)

Mor damage then Evis, quite same spike

No its not quite the same cause of no executioners! This a long gone debate. Eviscerate is king and cleave is trash. With your two skills you only got an attac boost on one of them. Strength is basically unnoticeable. Eviscerate, executioners. At 16 axe mastery is +42. So you do +42 and deep wound +42. thats +84 dmg with a deep wound in under 2 seconds on frenzy. WTF compare that to +31 and a deep wound all for 3 extra adrenaline. OMG use your brain. Its not the same spike ! and why in the world would you be attacking another warrior .

sure keystone is not useless, but if you want this as Elite, you have so to take a fully signet build, which would be possible as Mesmer and monk. Now its not useless, but you could do better things with your spots than fill them up with signets. Its not for nothing that they made signets without energycost, they are not as powerfull as normal skills.

heres my opinion

healing hands- good for soloing
shield of deflection-(doesn't enemies get knocked down?)
glyph of renewal- ummm ele's dont have oath shot, plus with arcane echo can do 4x any skill
"mind" spells i agree, but "freeze" has a "z" in it
mesmer/ necro i know nothing about besides order and tainted
escape- (not positive of effect) saw ranger use it and cast traps 100% of the time she used them
defy pain- coupled with endure pain can do well

again, just my opinion i could be wrong

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