I know that some of you people create builds just for fun, so I'm going to toss out a request (or a challenge) for you. Could you create a 2-player UW build?
The reason I ask is because I've been to UW maybe 3 or 4 times, and the only times the party hasn't gotten rocked in 2 minutes is when there was a supermonk there to tank. Not only that, but when we left the supermonks alone, they killed monsters VERY slowly. As soon as I threw in spiteful spirit, insidious parasite, and a few other hexes, the monsters died much more quickly. I would like to be able to go to the UW and look around, do quests, etc. but not solo - I play the game with my sister so it makes sense if we could somehow use a 2-player combo that will enable us to survive in UW.
I guess the real challenge is to create this build using a Ne/X and Mo/X, as those are the characters that I and my sister, respectively, play. If worse comes to worst, then we've got a El/X, R/X, and an additional Mo/X progressing slowly through the game. I'd like to avoid using a 105/55/5/1.5/whatever supermonk, though.
I've tried using some of the tactics used by supermonks, but my first effort last night wasn't too successful. Of course I'll continue brainstorming on my own, but advice or guidance from the rest of you would be very helpful and much appreciated.
[Challenge] Create a 2-character UW build
xlarisux
Racthoh
How far do you plan on going? The entire UW or just smites.
The definition of soloing the UW gets lost in translation it seems.
The definition of soloing the UW gets lost in translation it seems.
xlarisux
Quote:
Originally Posted by Racthoh
How far do you plan on going? The entire UW or just smites.
The definition of soloing the UW gets lost in translation it seems. As much of the Underworld as possible. Not going to farm, just to do quests and look around, as I already stated.
Also, I said nothing about soloing the UW. I specifically stated that I DON'T want to solo. This is for 2 characters to enter the UW together and be able to survive longer than the 8-character groups that I've joined and been slaughtered with almost immediately.
The definition of soloing the UW gets lost in translation it seems. As much of the Underworld as possible. Not going to farm, just to do quests and look around, as I already stated.
Also, I said nothing about soloing the UW. I specifically stated that I DON'T want to solo. This is for 2 characters to enter the UW together and be able to survive longer than the 8-character groups that I've joined and been slaughtered with almost immediately.
Racthoh
Heh sorry... seems like eveytime I hear the mention of the UW it is regarding soloing it. Force of habit, oops.
As is my understanding, there are those nasty obsidian behemoths with their nature's renewal. Players have boasted about killing them with their 105/55 monks, but it is a time consuming and difficult process. There is also the matter of the keeper of souls and their Lingering Curse. So basically if you want to get far, you have to understand that there will be enemies that remove enchantments so don't bank on them being your only form of survival.
Stances seems like a fine way to go with your 'tank' character. I haven't been very far in the UW, only freed 3 of the keepers. So you'd probably want one character to be a warrior primary. The keeper of souls do cast rigor mortis, so that like the lingering curse will cause some troubles. Whether or not there are enemies furthur in that use Wild Blow to end stances, it does seem like the best solution in the long run.
You will need a monk for sure, although each class has a method of healing, each can be countered quite easily. Healing Signet, the Mindblade Specters (think thats their name) disable that which really hurts (own experience has shown that). Troll Ungent, again, enchantment strippers. Not sure how far Aura of Restoration will get you, but I have my doubts. And again, enchantments will be stripped. Having a monk with 4 superior runes may seem risky, but you'll want those attributes to be as high as possible IMO. Plus, you will probably want to take advantage of each tree of skills. Balthazars is a great offensive spell, as long as it doesn't get stripped. Zealot's Fire, well you'll be constantly throwing spells on your tank. Protective Bond at 17 is just nice, healing prayers with high level of divine favor can easily compensate for spikes. As long as your monk knows how to properly let your 'tank' aggro they should be fine anyway.
Troubles I've had in the UW relate mostly to the obisidian behemoths. Their healing spring in such an annoyance, so you'll need to interrupt it. Problem is there are always at least two of them at once. Plus with only two characters, you probably won't be doing a lot of damage so you'll have to work as quickly and effient as possible.
Problem is, you said you have a necro, an ele, a ranger and a monk. Ranger can get a nice elemental defense, but having one of them tank the aatxe at the start could be tough. Best make sure you know how to make them block each other off so you'll only fight one at a time. Throw dirt never fails (as long as the savage slash is late). Ditto to dust trap. If you bring the necro in, enfeeble is very nice for that opening lot of beasts. As is plague touch. An ele with armor of earth, wards, kinetic armor, etc... might be able to get his/her AL high enough to survive the strongest of enemies. Problem is... nature's renewal FTL.
I guess all you can really do is talk to people who have cleared the entire place and ask what you should look out for. Examine your skills, read over them all very carefully and make the best judgements.
As is my understanding, there are those nasty obsidian behemoths with their nature's renewal. Players have boasted about killing them with their 105/55 monks, but it is a time consuming and difficult process. There is also the matter of the keeper of souls and their Lingering Curse. So basically if you want to get far, you have to understand that there will be enemies that remove enchantments so don't bank on them being your only form of survival.
Stances seems like a fine way to go with your 'tank' character. I haven't been very far in the UW, only freed 3 of the keepers. So you'd probably want one character to be a warrior primary. The keeper of souls do cast rigor mortis, so that like the lingering curse will cause some troubles. Whether or not there are enemies furthur in that use Wild Blow to end stances, it does seem like the best solution in the long run.
You will need a monk for sure, although each class has a method of healing, each can be countered quite easily. Healing Signet, the Mindblade Specters (think thats their name) disable that which really hurts (own experience has shown that). Troll Ungent, again, enchantment strippers. Not sure how far Aura of Restoration will get you, but I have my doubts. And again, enchantments will be stripped. Having a monk with 4 superior runes may seem risky, but you'll want those attributes to be as high as possible IMO. Plus, you will probably want to take advantage of each tree of skills. Balthazars is a great offensive spell, as long as it doesn't get stripped. Zealot's Fire, well you'll be constantly throwing spells on your tank. Protective Bond at 17 is just nice, healing prayers with high level of divine favor can easily compensate for spikes. As long as your monk knows how to properly let your 'tank' aggro they should be fine anyway.
Troubles I've had in the UW relate mostly to the obisidian behemoths. Their healing spring in such an annoyance, so you'll need to interrupt it. Problem is there are always at least two of them at once. Plus with only two characters, you probably won't be doing a lot of damage so you'll have to work as quickly and effient as possible.
Problem is, you said you have a necro, an ele, a ranger and a monk. Ranger can get a nice elemental defense, but having one of them tank the aatxe at the start could be tough. Best make sure you know how to make them block each other off so you'll only fight one at a time. Throw dirt never fails (as long as the savage slash is late). Ditto to dust trap. If you bring the necro in, enfeeble is very nice for that opening lot of beasts. As is plague touch. An ele with armor of earth, wards, kinetic armor, etc... might be able to get his/her AL high enough to survive the strongest of enemies. Problem is... nature's renewal FTL.
I guess all you can really do is talk to people who have cleared the entire place and ask what you should look out for. Examine your skills, read over them all very carefully and make the best judgements.
miteethor
In the patch going in tonight Natures Renewal will no longer remove enchants, which means that a Monk tank will be able to venture farther into UW.
Also, I have found that when I am Monk up front, and a necro with Spiteful Spirit in the back maxed up to 18 (using 16 and awaken the blood) will kill any mob in like 15 seconds, and that also seems to fit with your request.
One thing, don't use spiteful Spirit on smites, since they use Vengeance and the reflected damage will kill you, but then again smites are so easy for the monk tank you can sit those out.
MiteethoR
Also, I have found that when I am Monk up front, and a necro with Spiteful Spirit in the back maxed up to 18 (using 16 and awaken the blood) will kill any mob in like 15 seconds, and that also seems to fit with your request.
One thing, don't use spiteful Spirit on smites, since they use Vengeance and the reflected damage will kill you, but then again smites are so easy for the monk tank you can sit those out.
MiteethoR
ecto bomb
Quote:
Originally Posted by miteethor
In the patch going in tonight Natures Renewal will no longer remove enchants, which means that a Monk tank will be able to venture farther into UW.
Also, I have found that when I am Monk up front, and a necro with Spiteful Spirit in the back maxed up to 18 (using 16 and awaken the blood) will kill any mob in like 15 seconds, and that also seems to fit with your request.
One thing, don't use spiteful Spirit on smites, since they use Vengeance and the reflected damage will kill you, but then again smites are so easy for the monk tank you can sit those out.
MiteethoR Todays the Patch???......Anways at that last part when u said vengeance..dont u mean smite hex?
Also, I have found that when I am Monk up front, and a necro with Spiteful Spirit in the back maxed up to 18 (using 16 and awaken the blood) will kill any mob in like 15 seconds, and that also seems to fit with your request.
One thing, don't use spiteful Spirit on smites, since they use Vengeance and the reflected damage will kill you, but then again smites are so easy for the monk tank you can sit those out.
MiteethoR Todays the Patch???......Anways at that last part when u said vengeance..dont u mean smite hex?
Arri
Quote:
Originally Posted by miteethor
In the patch going in tonight Natures Renewal will no longer remove enchants, which means that a Monk tank will be able to venture farther into UW.
Also, I have found that when I am Monk up front, and a necro with Spiteful Spirit in the back maxed up to 18 (using 16 and awaken the blood) will kill any mob in like 15 seconds, and that also seems to fit with your request.
One thing, don't use spiteful Spirit on smites, since they use Vengeance and the reflected damage will kill you, but then again smites are so easy for the monk tank you can sit those out.
MiteethoR proof?
Also, I have found that when I am Monk up front, and a necro with Spiteful Spirit in the back maxed up to 18 (using 16 and awaken the blood) will kill any mob in like 15 seconds, and that also seems to fit with your request.
One thing, don't use spiteful Spirit on smites, since they use Vengeance and the reflected damage will kill you, but then again smites are so easy for the monk tank you can sit those out.
MiteethoR proof?
Katari
Quote:
Originally Posted by miteethor
In the patch going in tonight Natures Renewal will no longer remove enchants, which means that a Monk tank will be able to venture farther into UW.
Also, I have found that when I am Monk up front, and a necro with Spiteful Spirit in the back maxed up to 18 (using 16 and awaken the blood) will kill any mob in like 15 seconds, and that also seems to fit with your request.
One thing, don't use spiteful Spirit on smites, since they use Vengeance and the reflected damage will kill you, but then again smites are so easy for the monk tank you can sit those out.
MiteethoR MiteethoR:
Doubleing the cost of maintaining enchants, will give solo monks plenty of problems with Natures Rewnal, just not as severe ones.
'Vengence' is a tempory resurection spell, one that Ive never seen smites use. What I have seen them use is, Reversal of Fortune, Zealot's Fire Shield of Judgment, and perhaps Retribution, but Spiteful is shadow damage, and I know of no skill that will reflect shadow damage back. Perhaps they have a monster only stance that reflects shadow damage? I doubt it. I would suspect that you started hitting the smites.
Anyhow...
xlarisux:
As for actualy surviving without a monk tank, I would suggest the ranger using a large amount of stances, preferably a R/Mo, Oath shot to recharge the stances, then, Symboyis, and perhaps QZ, maybe EW if the monk needs energy.Skills like life barrier would be handy. And the monk could use smiting spells, and maintained enchants on you to keep you alive. Blinding with throw dirt is a must as well. Your skills will effectivly recharge as fast as Oath Shot.
Oh, you wanted a N/X using build. Aura of the Lich would help the necro tank by way of pront bond and pront spirit. Beware, against spellcasters you're going to have problems if you go the low hp/pront route, without the monk tanking. Balthazr's Spirit is the only skill that provides energy from [I]any[I] hit, so Maelstorm would rain 1 energy from every hit. Not good. Pront spirit, for those reasons may work better, and Aura of the Lich could get your HP even lower, but interupts, would be a problem, as wellas the instant death caused by any slipups by the monk.
Also, I have found that when I am Monk up front, and a necro with Spiteful Spirit in the back maxed up to 18 (using 16 and awaken the blood) will kill any mob in like 15 seconds, and that also seems to fit with your request.
One thing, don't use spiteful Spirit on smites, since they use Vengeance and the reflected damage will kill you, but then again smites are so easy for the monk tank you can sit those out.
MiteethoR MiteethoR:
Doubleing the cost of maintaining enchants, will give solo monks plenty of problems with Natures Rewnal, just not as severe ones.
'Vengence' is a tempory resurection spell, one that Ive never seen smites use. What I have seen them use is, Reversal of Fortune, Zealot's Fire Shield of Judgment, and perhaps Retribution, but Spiteful is shadow damage, and I know of no skill that will reflect shadow damage back. Perhaps they have a monster only stance that reflects shadow damage? I doubt it. I would suspect that you started hitting the smites.
Anyhow...
xlarisux:
As for actualy surviving without a monk tank, I would suggest the ranger using a large amount of stances, preferably a R/Mo, Oath shot to recharge the stances, then, Symboyis, and perhaps QZ, maybe EW if the monk needs energy.Skills like life barrier would be handy. And the monk could use smiting spells, and maintained enchants on you to keep you alive. Blinding with throw dirt is a must as well. Your skills will effectivly recharge as fast as Oath Shot.
Oh, you wanted a N/X using build. Aura of the Lich would help the necro tank by way of pront bond and pront spirit. Beware, against spellcasters you're going to have problems if you go the low hp/pront route, without the monk tanking. Balthazr's Spirit is the only skill that provides energy from [I]any[I] hit, so Maelstorm would rain 1 energy from every hit. Not good. Pront spirit, for those reasons may work better, and Aura of the Lich could get your HP even lower, but interupts, would be a problem, as wellas the instant death caused by any slipups by the monk.
smurfhunter
you can just go with one monk/tank and another prot/smite monk to BA up faster, etc. this seems like cheating but im sure it would work 
Racthoh
Smites use smite hex... don't cast Spiteful.
xlarisux
Thanks for the replies, especially Katari and Racthoh. I'll definitely be taking your advice into account. I would love to mess around with various builds in the UW, but that platinum entry fee is prohibitive....
miteethor
[QUOTE=Katari]MiteethoR:
Doubleing the cost of maintaining enchants, will give solo monks plenty of problems with Natures Rewnal, just not as severe ones.
'Vengence' is a tempory resurection spell, one that Ive never seen smites use. What I have seen them use is, Reversal of Fortune, Zealot's Fire Shield of Judgment, and perhaps Retribution, but Spiteful is shadow damage, and I know of no skill that will reflect shadow damage back. Perhaps they have a monster only stance that reflects shadow damage? I doubt it. I would suspect that you started hitting the smites.
QUOTE]
Yes, I got my vengeance mixed up. I meant retribution and/or Holy Wrath. They definitely use this. I have done 2-man with a necro running spiteful spirit and as soon as we hit smites he starts taking massive damage so he just has to sit those ones out.
NR with the double costs will be a problem, but at least the bond isn't gone. Kind of doesn't matter now that Protective Bond has been nerfed to 3 energy even at 17. HAve to switch to Protective Spirit and life barrier maybe, which will take you to the same net damage but you will need a partner for it.
Doubleing the cost of maintaining enchants, will give solo monks plenty of problems with Natures Rewnal, just not as severe ones.
'Vengence' is a tempory resurection spell, one that Ive never seen smites use. What I have seen them use is, Reversal of Fortune, Zealot's Fire Shield of Judgment, and perhaps Retribution, but Spiteful is shadow damage, and I know of no skill that will reflect shadow damage back. Perhaps they have a monster only stance that reflects shadow damage? I doubt it. I would suspect that you started hitting the smites.
QUOTE]
Yes, I got my vengeance mixed up. I meant retribution and/or Holy Wrath. They definitely use this. I have done 2-man with a necro running spiteful spirit and as soon as we hit smites he starts taking massive damage so he just has to sit those ones out.
NR with the double costs will be a problem, but at least the bond isn't gone. Kind of doesn't matter now that Protective Bond has been nerfed to 3 energy even at 17. HAve to switch to Protective Spirit and life barrier maybe, which will take you to the same net damage but you will need a partner for it.
Racthoh
Quote:
Originally Posted by xlarisux
Thanks for the replies, especially Katari and Racthoh. I'll definitely be taking your advice into account. I would love to mess around with various builds in the UW, but that platinum entry fee is prohibitive....
3 minutes to kill griffons nets that platinum. There are numerous ways to do it, just look around.
Cymmina
Sounds like a fun experiment I should try out myself sometime.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Racthoh
Quote:
Troll Ungent, again, enchantment strippers.
Troll Unguent isn't an enchantment. It is a "skill". Enchantment stripping won't do jack.
I've got a Me/N (or N/Me, doesn't matter) that can solo 3+ lvl 20 minotaurs that could in theory work with a protection monk in UW. Only down side is that I'm purely designed to work against physical attacks (X curses/10 inspiration/12 illusion). If the monk went Mo/Me and spec'ed domination/protection, you could have casters covered. You'd have to avoid anything with hex removal with my build because it is exceptionally hex heavy.
I'd suggest duoing in the highest level area (other than UW) that has mobs that are the most similar to the ones you will be encountering in UW. Keep track of all the damage you take, then compare it to the damage you *would* be taking if you were in UW.
I've got a Me/N (or N/Me, doesn't matter) that can solo 3+ lvl 20 minotaurs that could in theory work with a protection monk in UW. Only down side is that I'm purely designed to work against physical attacks (X curses/10 inspiration/12 illusion). If the monk went Mo/Me and spec'ed domination/protection, you could have casters covered. You'd have to avoid anything with hex removal with my build because it is exceptionally hex heavy.
I'd suggest duoing in the highest level area (other than UW) that has mobs that are the most similar to the ones you will be encountering in UW. Keep track of all the damage you take, then compare it to the damage you *would* be taking if you were in UW.
Rossaroni
Here's what you need: [I'm making this up on the spot, just to demonstrate how this whole creative process should work.]
An R/W with cyclone axe, bonetti's, and to the limit! for tanking. The R primary is for expertise. Also, bring unguent and healing spring for healing. For damage, you could go with traps: flame and barbed would be enough. Bring whatever for the 8th slot. An alternative for energy to bonetti's is to bring greater conflagration and storm chaser. You take damage that way, though, so I wouldn't recommend it.
Obviously, your partner needs to be a monk. His job is to cut down damage and do some AoE damage. Life Bond plus shielding hands should be enough. Zealot's Fire + Reversal is a good combo. Balthazar's Aura is another option for damage, and seems to be a popular one. I'd rather drop it, though, due to the high energy cost. Instead, essence bond the ranger and use that energy for spamming reversal to activate zealot's fire. You could throw in draw conditions to basically make a monk copy of the E/Mo tombs smiter. In fact, the E/Mo smiter might be a good match to the R/W, since the E/Mo could bring ether renewal to cover the cost of life bond (in life and energy).
Edge of Extinction?
An R/W with cyclone axe, bonetti's, and to the limit! for tanking. The R primary is for expertise. Also, bring unguent and healing spring for healing. For damage, you could go with traps: flame and barbed would be enough. Bring whatever for the 8th slot. An alternative for energy to bonetti's is to bring greater conflagration and storm chaser. You take damage that way, though, so I wouldn't recommend it.
Obviously, your partner needs to be a monk. His job is to cut down damage and do some AoE damage. Life Bond plus shielding hands should be enough. Zealot's Fire + Reversal is a good combo. Balthazar's Aura is another option for damage, and seems to be a popular one. I'd rather drop it, though, due to the high energy cost. Instead, essence bond the ranger and use that energy for spamming reversal to activate zealot's fire. You could throw in draw conditions to basically make a monk copy of the E/Mo tombs smiter. In fact, the E/Mo smiter might be a good match to the R/W, since the E/Mo could bring ether renewal to cover the cost of life bond (in life and energy).
Edge of Extinction?
Fr3sH
Trap rangers ??
Racthoh
Oh Ungent isn't an enchantment. My mistake, always thought it was. Haven't played with my ranger that much and the endless hours I've put into the game have been warrior heavy.
Not sure how well Healing Spring would work on the 'tank' character. He'll get interrupted too much since he'll be right there in the action.
For Great Justice! would probably be better than To The Limit! in almost every case if you're bringing cyclone axe IMO.
Prehaps you could both be part monk (be it primary or secondary) and have Healing Hands/Mark of Protection (or whatever it's called). Have the main 'tank' using Healing Hands due to the fast casting nature of it, and Mark of Protection on the primary monk. I'll have to check the recharge times on them to see if you could keep them constantly going. If not, use a Bonetti's for the time inbetween.
Not sure how well Healing Spring would work on the 'tank' character. He'll get interrupted too much since he'll be right there in the action.
For Great Justice! would probably be better than To The Limit! in almost every case if you're bringing cyclone axe IMO.
Prehaps you could both be part monk (be it primary or secondary) and have Healing Hands/Mark of Protection (or whatever it's called). Have the main 'tank' using Healing Hands due to the fast casting nature of it, and Mark of Protection on the primary monk. I'll have to check the recharge times on them to see if you could keep them constantly going. If not, use a Bonetti's for the time inbetween.