Mesmer interrupt builds are inferior to ranger interrupt builds, who can interrupt faster and deal brutal damage at the same time.
I have played both, and some things you seem to have failed to consider as a ranger are:
You need to have Line-Of-Sight on your target.
Arrows have flight time(small, but it exists).
Arrows can be doged (I do not think the insta-cast ones can, but Choking Gas, Incindiary Arrows, Savage Shot etc)
Unless you go mesmer secondary and dump points into illusion, you will not be operating under AC or Migrane.
A Mesmer interrupts have the same casting speed as a rangers interrupts, have no flight time, can't be stopped by hiding behind a wall, and can not be doged.
Distracting Shot's 1...12 damage is brutal? Wow, guess I never knew that it hurt so much. Punishing Shot perhaps? Ok, punishing shot is good, atleast I think it is, and it does do good damage. Concussion shot? Incredibly high cost, even at 12 expertise. You have to actualy interrupt something to get the daze effect (not an easy thing to do on a skilled monk, who will put walls between you and him) and it does not do good damage. Savage Shot? Only about 20-30 damage if it hits a spell, and last I knew it when off at normal arrow speed(correct me if I am wrong). Not that usefull for an interrupt. Choking Gas? Still not good damage, and monks can cast between the hits (I have done so when fighting such rangers. OoH casts faster than you fire, though there is a slim chance that is not true if the ranger has a short bow and is using TF) Incindiary Arrows? Same problem as Choking Gas, but you also have horrible cooldown.
Originally Posted by Morganas
You can't cast while dodging arrows.
While that is true, I have noticed some instances (very few, but they exists) where a stance is used to evade (again, I am assuming monk targets here). These stances don't stop Choking Gas, but the duration on that is so low...
Perhaps I will create a ranger to retest CG with soon, as it would be interisting for me to know whether I am completely incorrect in my statement about casting in between the hits. (mind you, I won't believe it till I see it)
I should probably say right out that I am not rank 3 or anything like that, my HoH experience is (fairly) limited.
While I have done very extensive competition arenas battles, I still need to get a better understanding with 8 player teams.
One comment on the spinal shivers/wager combo, doesn't that suffer the same problems as choking gas? Obvioulsy the problem disapears if you can extend their cast times or increase your fire times, and if I find out from my tests that I am incorrect about CG, that translates into being incorrect about this as well.
I have always felt that normal speed interrupts had no place in serious combat, as you had a slim at best chance to hit the target when you needed. Perhaps it is time for me to revisit this.
29 Aug 2005 at 05:35 - 6
Here's my take on an interrupt build vs. energy denial vs. Blackout (my favorite build which I have created myself)...
Mesmer interrupt builds can be every good, if made correctly, at most 5 interrupts, AC/Migraine(if you're not using power block which, imo, is better), and two-three spells that will give you some recovery time. For one of your interrupts, I highly suggest cry of frustration, it's funny, and it can interrupt anything. The problem with interrupt builds is that it requires a lot of concentration, split second timing, and the ability to discerne casting animations. There is a lot or margine for error, but a good interrupter is invaluable. I have tried interrupting before, and to be honest, I can't do it well enough to warrant using that build.
Energy denial is great, and I am talking about hardcore energy denial w/out mind wrack/ wastrel's worry. The idea is to keep your opponent's energy at 0, works best on monks who are not mesmer secondaries or elementalist primaries. once your opponent has 0 energy, they have nothing on you, the problem is that interrupt builds can work as instantaneous shutdown while energy denial takes more time (especially with a necro around), but is more definite. I love this build, it was my first PvP mesmer build, and has worked wonders on my enemies.
Blackout...it needs echo to work really well, stick some skills on there to shutdown during echo's cooldown, and you have a pretty efficient build. The problem arises when they start running, stops them from casting for the most part as well, but it does get really annoying. Blackout is instantaneous, not a spell (cannot be affected by spellbreaker or any interrupts), and is fun, you will experience energy problems though, so bring some energy recovery with you like shame/guilt/energy tap. Also, you will be behind enemy lines, so make sure your healer knows what you're doing. It is not as constant as energy denial, or as insane as interruption, but it's good in its own way.
I have played all three builds in a PvP setting, and have seen them in action as well. I have made it to the HoH with the energy denial build and the blackout build (I really can't play the interruption that well). Although, I got owned in the HoH both times lol.
29 Aug 2005 at 06:14 - 7
Mystic, energy denial is effectively instantaneous if you're stacked for it, using arcane echo with energy drain, along with tap feast and burn and you can drain an entire monks bar in less then 5 seconds and keep it at zero.
The advantage of energy denial isn't that you can drain multiple targets (though you can if you take advantage of a necro secondary), it's that you can completely shut down one, and have plenty of time before they get 5 energy to hit diversion on another foe, between every energy draining cast, taking ample advantage of all that excess energy you're getting. Despite how much people say they hate it, I take mind wrack too, it's a helpful indicator of when they hit zero energy and it forces the monk to heal himself if you accidentally let him hit 5 energy.
A mesmer has no place taking blackout due to the same beef I had with the interrupt build, it only works on one target and leave you unable to do anything else. I've seen it on warriors before, which seems to do better since they can halfway function with it on them, but warriors can run energy denial pretty effectively too.
29 Aug 2005 at 09:25 - 8
monk hiding behind a rock against fragility + incendiary FTW
doesn't work on all maps, but when it does its pretty funny....
30 Aug 2005 at 04:23 - 9
I'd drop one or two of the interupts and replace it/them with a fire-and-forget domination hex. I find the best way to use interupts is to not go all out on them, and use them only after you've doled out hexes to the rest of the team like candy.
30 Aug 2005 at 12:41 - 10
I could say that more effective "counterspell mesmer" could be something like this..
Domination - 15 (12+3)
Fast Cast - 9 (8+1)
Inspiration - 11 (10+1)
Energy Burn
Energy Surge
Mind Wrack
Energy Tap
Drain Enchantment
Ether Feast
What ever you like
Res Sig
This is very effective build against anything. There is no protection against energy burning. Energy constantly at 0-10 + mind wrack on .. well you figure
30 Aug 2005 at 13:39 - 11
Shutdown options:
Energy denial
Single target: No
Twitch required: No
Counters: Energy management Elite, focus switching
Anti-counters: Signet of Humility (against the former)
When your target doesn't have any energy there's not much he can do. The Mesmer can move on to another target while he scrounges up for 5 energy for an Orison. At best he'd have 12 energy from focus switching, but I don't think many people use this as it's kind of a hassle.
Interrupts
Single target: Yes
Twitch required: Yes
Counters: Mantra of Resolve/Concentration etc (not used)
Anti-counters: -
Interrupts just require too much watchdogging, and with .25 cast times on some Monk spells, reaction time and lag, it can be hopeless to interrupt them.
Hexes
Single target: No
Twitch required: No
Counters: Hex removal, Hex Breaker, Nature's Renewal
Anti-counters: Covers, Hex Breaker breakers, Fast Casting (Partial)
Hexes get removed, you can cover them but there's Convert, or just 2 removals, and you're spending extra energy to cover your hexes. Add in Hex Breaker and you need to cast two 5 energy hexes just to protect one hex.
Blackout
Single target: Yes
Twitch required: No
Counters: Kiting, snares, spiking you when you overextend
Anti-counters: Snares, hex/condition removal (Partial)
Probably the worst. You get owned by snares and kiting. Some snares on you you can remove, but Ward Against Foes with kiting screws you totally. Snaring the target can help but they can remove that. You're also a soft target extending into enemy lines, you're asking to be spiked as soon as you get out of healing range.
Energy denial is by far the better option.
Mind Wrack is trash, never use it. Especially not when wasting energy denial spells trying to trigger it to do pointless off-target damage, when you could just drain someone else.
30 Aug 2005 at 14:10 - 12
Now that they have dropped the cast time, I would take cry of frustration on ANY interrupt build.
I haven't done an interrupt ranger so can't comment on that.
30 Aug 2005 at 14:16 - 13
Why would you want to run interrupt spells on a Ranger, that has Expertise for his own interrupts? That, and they don't have 20 sec recharges. I will never understand people who put Power Spike etc on Rangers.
30 Aug 2005 at 15:44 - 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nash
Why would you want to run interrupt spells on a Ranger, that has Expertise for his own interrupts? That, and they don't have 20 sec recharges. I will never understand people who put Power Spike etc on Rangers.
I dunno if this is directed at me... but Cry has a nice AE interrupt effect and hits anything - my understanding is that it is a significantly larger AE than choking gas, and it is available on the spot (no prep then shoot).
As far as power spike/leak go, I wouldn't run those on an interrupt ranger, your ranger skills should cover that. Now power drain... maybe, even at 8 or so inspiration you can get a serious energy refill, but it all depends on whether you have something better to go in your 8.
30 Aug 2005 at 15:49 - 15
Cry is too expensive to put on a Ranger. Only spells you want on a Ranger (or Warrior for that matter) are those that do things Rangers (or Warriors) can't do themselves, like remove enchantments, or of course damage buffs.
30 Aug 2005 at 15:52 - 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nash
Cry is too expensive to put on a Ranger. Only spells you want on a Ranger (or Warrior for that matter) are those that do things Rangers (or Warriors) can't do themselves, like remove enchantments, or of course damage buffs.
I will bow to your expertise here. I don't run rangers so if the energy cost is too high I wouldn't know.
Cry is a fine interrupt now tho...
30 Aug 2005 at 15:55 - 17
Well, you have to keep in mind Rangers have a limited energy pool and 3 pips, and generally don't run energy management skills, they rely on Expertise and Zealous Bow for their energy. Expertise doesn't work on spells, and Zealous bow doesn't work unless you're attacking.
So, use attack skills or preps to interrupt on a Ranger, to keep your energy pool happy.
01 Sep 2005 at 00:58 - 18
Been a bit since I replied to this, I have been a bit busy with school, sorry.
Anyway, it seems like the general consensus is, "give up interruption, go energy drain", so the new build is posted here, and added to the first post
Panic
Power Leak
Cry of Frustration/Arcane Echo
Energy Tap
Signet of Weariness
Diversion
Backfire
Res Signet
Please keep in mind that this new build is UNTESTED.
I have no idea if Panic works well, I would think that, as with Wither, -2 energy regen can hurt a lot. Of course, the fact that it is AoE and won't end if you hit 0 are also nice. (the damage when you use signets will probably come about every...10-15 games I suppose, depending on how many sig of devotion/blessed signet monks you find)
Power Leak is very good "spike" drain, though situational and a long recharge. It hits monks pretty hard.
CoF/AE. Well, CoF is a decent interrupt, but I think AE would work better as you could use it and then SoW/ET for good energy drain.
Energy Drain: Well, partial energy drain, this skill seems like a kind of staple, and is good to recharge yourself also.
SoW: AoE drain, I like it except for the long recharge.
Diversion: Lots of smite builds running around, this should help counter that, as well as being spamable on monks if needed.
Backfire: Again, can hurt smite groups (perhaps not experienced ones, but you see more bad ones than anything else) and I like to put it on monks.
Res Sig: I would love to take this out for more energy managment like Drain Enchantment, or perhaps add Rend Enchantments, but it seems kind of important for the non-monks to be able to res.
I figure that most people will say, "remove panic, add energy drain", and I might after I test it, but until I see for myself if Panic is bad, or just under-used, I will reserve judgement.
01 Sep 2005 at 08:28 - 19
Id focus a bit more on diversion than you are. Its the best hex around in terms of shutdown, especially for monks, who are generally spammers of the same spell (e.g. orison) over and over. While most monks bring at best 2/3 alt heals, just getting the main one is often a huge hit on efficiency.
Panic got buffed, but still i have to say for single targets drain is better. panic is a bitch for healing balls and a nagging trouble for anyone else, who wont have their entire team blasted by it. As the name suggests, in a non healing ball situation, a bunch of nubs who dont remove will start to panic (since their energy is being hit so hard), but a competent team will put it as priority to get rid of it as soon as it comes up.
Unless you feel like getting mantra of inscriptions then dont bother with sow. its about the equivalent of 1pip, which isnt bad but isnt worth it really. Ether Feast i believe is 5e on a single target every 8s, which comes out as nearly 2pips, and you heal yourself.
01 Sep 2005 at 11:25 - 20
I would run Energy Drain/Tap/Burn and Diversion, and some more stuff.
Energy Burn is nice for a denial Mesmer. It tells you how much energy your target has left.
Panic you want to use against Healing balls. Other than that, I think it's overpriced, and will probably just get removed off the targets that matter. But sure, go test. First hand experience is always nice to have.
02 Sep 2005 at 04:08 - 21
I don't know why the big segregation between "interupt" mesmer and "energy denial" mesmer and "shutdown" mesmer.
Your job as a mesmer is to make monk's life hell, regardless of the approach you take. Here's my two cents and my build.
Step 1 Backfire
They expect this, everyone in the game knows mesmers=backfire... must be written on the box or something. Now backfire by itself is useless and weak as it can easily be removed and is the one thing most casters will be keeping a watchful eye for.
Step 2
Wastrel's Worry immediately after Backfire
Many of the decent monks expect this and if their team is not heavy on hex removal will usually wait it out before calling for removal of Backfire provided the battle is not full on, especially in teams of 3 monks.
Step 3
Shatter delusions immediately after Wastrel's
Nets you some nice damage and with decent fast-cast they won't really notice what's going on because of Step 4
Step 4 Wastrel's Worry immediately after Shatter Delusions
The cast time on Wastrel and Shatter Delusions is so small this is near instant. At this point they usually start getting itchy, they expect another Shatter Delusions(most non-mesmers have no idea what the recharge rates are) also hex removal will bring down the Wastrel and still leave them with Backfire... decisions decisions.
At this point due to the chance for fast recharge on domination skills focus and cane Shatter delusions is sometimes back up for use on the expiring Backfire if it was not previously removed.
Step 5 Energy Burn
Step 6 Shatter Enchantment
Depending on wether any casting was done while under Backfire, this is about when the Healing Breeze goes up, when it does, it goes down and with a hefty punch to boot
Step 7 Energy Tap
Either on same target or other, doesn't mater really. Use it to either piss off another monk or get back on my feet after enemy interupts
Step 8 Energy Dain
Same as above.
The last skill slot I keep open depending on what team I go in with. Arcane Mimicry is good here depending on what the other Mesmer is using... also Diversion and Arcane Thievery is nice.
This works well for me against pretty much anything except spike groups. Those damn ElMo smiters >.< Sometimes I miss the old Nature's Renewal. Usually have the ranger back me up so we can score an easy kill and move on to the next. Also, this build works to a certain extent against non-caters since the Wastrel+Shatter combo is universal as is the Energy Burn.
Will shut up now.
02 Sep 2005 at 13:56 - 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by leguma
Step 2
Wastrel's Worry immediately after Backfire
And that's when I stopped reading.
02 Sep 2005 at 17:32 - 23
So, I ran a few numbers and, assuming that if you where using panic you would have 10 domination, and if you where using energy drain 10 inspiration, then over a 20 second time period energy drain would fire twice (once at the begining, once at the end, it has a 20 second cooldown), so you would drain 32 energy (I think it drains 16 at 10 inspiration) Panic you would put on a target at the start, and it would prevent him from gaining approximatly 13.2 energy. Hmmm...
Flip side of that is when Panic starts to hit more targets. If you Panic, say, 3 targets, then it drains a total of 39.6 energy. So, from what I see by the numbers, Energy Drain would be better unless you could always hit 3+ targets with Panic.
Other things to consider:
Panic is an incredible 25 energy to cast.
Energy Drain is 5, and steals more than that back for you.
Panic does not actualy drain energy, it merely inhibits the regeneration of it.
So, I would suggest the removal of Arcane Echo, and the addition of Energy Burn, for the reasons Nash stated above.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rii
Unless you feel like getting mantra of inscriptions then dont bother with sow. its about the equivalent of 1pip, which isnt bad but isnt worth it really. Ether Feast i believe is 5e on a single target every 8s, which comes out as nearly 2pips, and you heal yourself.
I personaly think SoW will have a use in this build, as Panic costs such an abnormaly large amount that a free energy denial skill might help. It is also a (small) AoE drain, so it should combo with Panic, but I am not positive about that. (it IS a small AoE, so you probably will never hit more than 2-3 targets with it)
If the build started using Energy Drain instead, I am unsure whether it should be left in or taken out. I think it would depend on what the rest of my skill bar looked like.
I unlocked Panic last night, and have a class soon today, but I will try and get in some HoH tonight, let you all know what I think.
02 Sep 2005 at 17:52 - 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Banebow
So, I ran a few numbers and, assuming that if you where using panic you would have 10 domination, and if you where using energy drain 10 inspiration, then over a 20 second time period energy drain would fire twice (once at the begining, once at the end, it has a 20 second cooldown), so you would drain 32 energy (I think it drains 16 at 10 inspiration) Panic you would put on a target at the start, and it would prevent him from gaining approximatly 13.2 energy. Hmmm...
First off, start using more realistic numbers. Are you ever going to run 10 in either Dom or Insp, on a Shutdown Mesmer?
Next, You have to look at drain vs. cast and downtime. For Energy Drain, it's whatever you drain divided by cast + recharge.
For Panic, it's the total amount drained over the duration, divided by cast + recharge.
This gives you the denial from repetitive use.
Of course, that's not all. For Panic, you have to factor in removal, hitting multiple targets, and the steep cost. For Energy Drain, you factor in how it gives you energy back.
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