Why can't a toggle be added onto Observer mode?

First off, I'm not even sure this is in the right section. If not, please move the topic.

Secondly, if Anet is already adding a toggle to Observer mode, then my whole post is wasted. Here I go.

Why can't a toggle be added onto Observer mode? It keeps the people that DON'T want to show their skills happy, and the people that DO want to show their builds, can show their builds and gain maybe a little more respect from the other players.

Now, I was tuning into WoC last night and I KNOW, I KNOW, that if you can go through being observed, make up lots, and LOTS of builds that work and you do well with them as a team, then you are truly in a skilled guild that deserves to be recognized.

But let's put it this way. You spend 4 hours, trying hard to make a build that wins HoH. You win, oh GLORIOUS GLORIOUS MOMENT SO GOOD OMG EXPLOSIVE EUPHORIA OMG, and then people just go and observe you. Next day, your build is the flavour of the day. And 90% of those people who observe you won't give credit to your guild, they'll just copy and use it to compete in HoH.

For example, some would say that Ensign fleshed out, or practically made the E/Mo Smiters all the rage. But fact is, 90% of those E/Mo Smiters don't have a damn clue in Hell who Ensign is, and if they did, they wouldn't care.

That is exactly what will happen to your glorious guild build that won HoH a moment ago. People will just JUMP onto observer mode, jot down your skills, maybe even make a few improvements you couldn't see while spending your precious time making this build!

A simple toggle can solve this problem. Sooner or later, the skilled guilds that actually stand a chance of winning in HoH will figure out your build after repeated battles, and you'll have to create a new one. But at least it isn't an everyday process.

If you have observer mode you'll be able to see what skills everyone is doing unless they get rid of the status bar, animations, and skill slot area while people are fighting. The good solution:

Make everything just display what attribute it is. Instead of showing a certain technique show the attribute. So if the monk is healing someone it will say and show the same thing to all observers which is: Healing Attribute or Protection Attribute for example then show the basic same thing for all techniques if that makes sense. Heal other and Orison of healing will look exactly the same... if you catch my drift

/signed

yes if you tried to not show the skills people can still pick up on the animations etc. i say just let them watch, sheesh they do it anyway. all it does is save you time. as a tomb-er myself if i come across a build were losing against i just stop fighting and try to watch what they do (i throw in some emotes like /beg /pout just so my teamates dont think im a sore loser and went afk or something). and to tell you the truth i didnt pick up on anything trully spectacular yet

so to really stop people from copying you would have to get rid of ALL animations, censor the forums, etc. i think its just part of the game, go with the flow

and anyway 90% of the time its based on player skill, so you can go copy the sB strategy or whatever and you will probably suck either way the game is (supposed to be) about skill not hoarding info.

x Local o Team x Trade x Emotes x Observers

^ An option to allow observers or don't allow observers in the chat window.

I hate when you think of something really cool and suddenly everyone knows it.

you work hard to find good combos

/signed

observer mode only for guild members and their maches + with permission to others (turn off to block obsmode for others)

Yes, but it is harder to pick up on animations than it is to pick up on names of skills that are written right at the top, just for you. But if Anet could get rid of animations in observer mode, then by all means give a toggle for it.

It takes skill to make a build that is unique and works. Observer mode = Hoarding Info.

You forgot "...and then people start spamming to forum boards that the build needs to be nerfed."

I don't see what the problem is with seeing other teams' builds. After all, this is Guild Wars, not Build Wars. Teams that are truly good can have their build mimicked 100%, but still dominate because they know what they're doing and are more experienced and skilled.

Besides, even if there was no spectator mode ever integrated, other teams are going to see your build and copy it if it works, and then other teams will see their copied build and copy it, and so on.

Wait, there's an observer mode?!

How do you use it?

But isn't there already a toggle for this? ctrl+shift+h (iirc) to toggle the HUD, my guess is that Observer Mode will come with this option switched on by default and that it can't be untoggled... Your suggestion is so..uhm obvious, for lack of a better word, that is hard to see not implemented. I assumed Observer Mode to work like this when I first heard about it. Apparently there are some doubts?

I don't consider the visual/auditory clues from skills used to be "sensitive info" because those are always given to your opponents. I could see no reason to hide these from observers. ( unless programs like Fraps are a violation of the EULA o.O )
And just to add: I am as of yet unable to match all skill names with their respective icons from memory, especially those skills I don't use myself.

@ Mithie: Observer Mode is (soon?) to be implemented, as a means of watching like guild battles or HoH matches... (when ObsMode comes I will finaly throw out my television ^^ )

The only thing I think observer mode should show is the names of the people involved, their health bars, skill animations, and that is all, censor everything else. Make it so it is almost like the observers are watching you at Ctrl+Shift+H, just with names-only showing up.

If it is like that, then /sign.

Given that observer mode isn't even in the game yet and the only people who have seen it are nodoubt under heavy NDA right now, speculation as to what it needs, will show, etc is POINTLESS.

I'm quite conflicted about Observer Mode. On one hand, I love the idea because I think it would be cool to observe the HoH match. On the other hand, I hate this idea because I fear it will be abused by guilds over TS/Vent. On the gripping hand, I hope they may be creating an Observer Mode for games that have already ended (think Warcraft 3's observation mode for watching a game after it's over); that would be the best of both worlds.

I'm equally conflicted about a toggle. I like the idea, as a player, to be able to prevent people from observing the match. However, I think if there is a toggle, there are going to be precious few matches to watch.

cmb

Anet have stated there will be a time delay, it works grand watching CS matches on HLTV so should not cause any problems here

Builds aren't powerful just because of the skills everyone are using, but mainly due to the individual talent, teamwork and communication. If a guild creates a build, uses it alot, and others begin to copy it, don't you think that guild will know it (the build) better than anyone else? And thus, be able to counter it easily?

it takes skill to use a build correctly and win. you see so many smiters dying cus they suck. so many people make a solo monk and get owned cus they suck. so many people cookie-cutter a fotd build and die, cus they suck. then they go online and say that the build got nerfed. LOL.

ArenaNet is well aware of this problem when it comes to Observer Mode. But im not sure how they plan to fix it. I think they said something about a delayed observation time... But I guess this is why they haven't brought this feature out yet...

But when it does come to pass... were gonna have to get used to it... for instance becoming GOOD and not relying on skills alone to win.

I am going to reply to this as if I was replying to all the other similiar posts. I KNOW builds aren't powerful just because of the skills. I mentioned that in my first post, and I KNOW, SOONER OR LATER, the skilled guilds will realise what kind of build you're running, with what kind of skills after repeated battles in the Guild Hall AND Hall of Heroes. But this doesn't happen overnight, it happens maybe after ten or twelve battles.

I can give another example. Remember the Fragility Mesmer thread that started it all? Before the thread, it Fragility Mesmers hardly existed. After the thread, Fragility Mesmers SWARMED Competition Arena (which I hardly play), and lately I've seen more Frag Mesmers in 4v4. IF, builds really takes that much skill to use, then all those Fragility Mesmers should be sucking. But why aren't they sucking? Because all you have to do is Karate Chop your board and get those spells off. Just like the E/Mo Smiter. Slap on your Zealots and Aura of Restoration, then Bal's Aura somebody and start spamming. Good builds are simple builds. Simple builds are good builds.

Here's where the arguement, I think, starts. If your guild is competent with running a simple build, you MIGHT improve upon it with more complicated things.

Trust me, if Observer mode comes out without a Toggle of some such, then these boards are GOING to be FLOODED with "WTF OMG NERF OBSERVER MODE PLX" threads, and I'll just simply say, "I told you so."

Paranoid, paranoid, paranoid!

That’s the only reason I can see why people would NOT want someone to view their game.

Lets face it.. everyone is paranoid, if they introduced this.. then guess what, you probably wont find ANY decent games to observe...and what a waste of all that programming.

I think this is the way it should work...

Competitive and Team Arena matches should NOT have any kind of restriction to anyone who wants to observe.

Guild Vs Guild, and if it arrives, Inter Guild Battles (Practise) should be accessible only to members of the guilds who are fighting. (and possibly a toggle to open it for public)

Hall of Heroes should be permanently available to everyone.. after all these are international battles to which EVERYONE has a vested interest.

I would just like to say another thing...

the most competitive and popular game in the world is football.... the reason why its so popular is due to the amount of people who watch it!...

Imagine if they were paranoid and didn’t want any on-looking rival team to learn how they play! what would they do? hold the game behind locked doors? lol! Exactly.. its daft.. the single truth is, the more people observing any game increases its own popularity AND competitiveness.

If I was to vote for anything I would say unlock everything for everyone!... and allow PVE to be observed as well... (at least if you then crash you can see how the team got on without you)

I was rather hoping that there would be no "observer mode" but instead an "observation area" by this I mean that I was hoping you could go to an area where with your actual character you could watch a fight taking place... this would be much cooler in terms of atmosphere.

agree !

Only idiots think their builds are secret. If you can't figure out what your enemy is doing you really need help. I have no problem giving away my builds, and that's fine - as soon as I use them. I won't talk about a work in progress, or give away a build we're about to try, but once it's out there, why not? If it works people will observe it and copy it anyway, just like in MtG or any other game like this. It's then up to you to make it better, to tweak it and to bring skill to the table. Only half the game is builds, the other half is playing.

i would go so far as to say it is even less then that buildwise.

maybe 60-40 or 70-30

i will take a balanced build with experienced players over any "elite build" with lesser players

Yes, taking an example from WoC is the best way to go about it. I've HEARD IT ALREADY. Me = <3 WoC.

I don't think you guys get my point... the point is not that I wish a build to remain a secret, but that your builds will be more or less un-unique once you are successful with it. For those that have read the smiting threads, competition will be boring. That is exactly what will happen. Once you get a unique build out, that works, is simple, and successful. Blam, everyone else is using it. Then will come the anti-FoTM builds, and then everybody would be running that. And so forth.

PvP will be BORING. And I requote:

I think a toggle for the skill bar would be nice. No need to give the info away for free. Animations however I believe should remain. Nothing wrong with figuring out a build thru the animations. That's part of the fun.

Not to mention... I don't want people seeing that I might be using a ressurect spell instead of a signet, and then get flamed via message "NEWB."

You guys really don't get it. You're so worried that your super-secret combo will be discovered (it will be regardless of observer mode if its really that great) that you're missing the bigger picture. The more KNOWLEDGE that's available to everyone through observing good teams in action (what skills are used, how they use them, etc...) the better EVERYONE becomes at pvp. The end result is tombs becomes a much more competitive, innovative environment. Now, when random pug X gets destroyed by a decent team, instead of just saying "oh, we lost because they were good," and becoming frustrated with tombs in general, they can actually look back and learn from the experience. Yes, you too can learn from watching matches. Now, when random team X gets destroyed by the FOTM, rather than running to the forums and claiming FOTM is impossible to beat and must be nerfed, they can watch matches and see first-hand how that FOTM can be beaten (and it usually can) and maybe, that team will use what they learned to create a build to beat FOTM rather than simply copying it. Observer mode makes the propagation of new build concepts and ideas flow through the tombs community much faster which should lead to a much faster evolving environment; and that, afterall, is the way it should be. So please, try to look past this selfish paranoia to the greater good of the game as a whole and you'll see in the end that a completely clairvoyant view of observer mode helps make the game a better, more fun environment for everyone.

Fastcast rez FTW!!

@ desktopbob: Did you even READ any of the posts above? Especially my ones? It is YOU and OTHERS who does not get it. I am NOT WORRIED about my super secret combo (not that I even have any). I am NOT WORRIED about being copied and not given credit for anything (others may care, I don't give a shit). What I AM WORRIED about is that once you win HoH a few times with the build, YOUR. BUILD. IS. TRASH. [BOLD]Unless the Observer delay is a WEEK or so.[/BOLD] What I AM WORRIED about is that it will not be a "fun fun euphoria fun" environment, it will just deterioate into "OMG *insert name here* WON HOH! LEZZ GO COPY DERE BILD!!!!" Once you win with a build that has any real staying power in HoH, everyone will jump on and blam, next FoTM.

I don't know whether the observer mode is made for GvG too, because if it is, then guilds will have to change builds overnight.

So please, try to look past this selfish "I crave for good builds but will not make it myself" as a whole and you'll see in the end that observer mode will help make the game a dull, plagarised environment for everyone.

Um... Observer mode? WHAT IS THAT? I saw it asked before but never saw it answered so I'll ASK. WHAT IS IT?!!!!! HOW DOES IT WORK?!!!

I don't think you understand, the concern you've just expressed is precisely the concern I'm saying is selfish and counter-productive to the pvp environment as a whole. Perhaps if I rephrase "super secret combo" to "Super Secret Team Build" you'll understand. Try to think of tombs as a collective community rather than just from your limited point of view. You make a build that's completely unstoppable, it wins HoH a lot, and people take notice. This happened with the MS build for instance. The result was that build and variations of that build became prevalent through tombs. At the same time, there were many other prevalent builds in tombs. From the Point of view of MS, they're now facing better competition as people have analyzed and understood their build completely, and as a result they face better competition. From the Point of View of the community as a whole, a new, powerful strategy has been put forth for everyone to play around with and make variations on. The result is that tombs becomes more innovative and competitive. I, myself, would prefer every fight to be a good fight and every team to be a challenge. To me, this is the ideal tombs environment. Simpy rolling over unprepared teams with your amazing "super secret team build" is not a challenge, and its not that much fun. Now, how does completely open observer mode solve this problem? Simple; it allows those unprepared teams to learn very quickly why they were defeated and adapt. At the same time, it creates a very quickly evolving community as, as you said, everyone can see what builds work and why they work. Now, if a build is really so good as to take notice, like you said, it will propagate through the tombs community on its own (like the MS build), however observer mode will make this propagation occur much more quickly. flavor of the month may turn into flavor of the day, or the concept may disappear completely as more people can observe more good strategies and adapt. And put simply, the more innovative strategies that propagate through the tombs community, the more dynamic, and more fun for everyone it is in the end.

So, UberRusty, to sum up, think of your build not as your private property that entitles you to win halls nonstop for a month, but rather as a new and innovative strategy that has been introduced to the tombs community. You may run into your own build, or you may run into variations of it; and maybe, just maybe, you might learn something from that and from other builds you see used effectively in observer mode. Furthermore, running the same build day after day with no variations is stagnant and boring, and that's not what tombs is about anyway. As to your personal attack on my build making ability, well, you have no idea what you're talking about. You haven't the slightest inclination as to my build-making ability so don't even try to comment on it. This and my former post are not personal attacks on you or anyone else so don't respond to them like they are.

I hope that cleared up your concerns.

Everyone who matters knows what the good teams run in tombs. It doesn't matter because those builds aren't trick builds, but good, robust strategies that are not trivially countered. The good teams are unaffected since they already know what's coming and have a plan - the bad teams and pugs are still bad teams and pugs, and accordingly get smashed.

In other words your worries are completely unfounded. All observer mode is going to do is weed out the truly wretched builds faster.


Which is exactly how it is now. No one cares. The good teams still smash the bad teams and the bad teams keep copying and wondering why their build isn't carrying them to victory. It's a non-issue.


The top guilds on the ladder know all of the other top guilds' builds skill for skill. That hasn't forced any of them to change builds. I don't see how making that information available to even less relevant teams forces change upon anyone.

Peace,
-CxE

question: can you list like say 5 guilds you consider "good"?

And I'm saying you're wrong. We can argue all week long about this post, but we would end up nowhere. We have a difference of opinions, I'll leave it at that.

You still don't understand me. But like I said, I'll leave it at this.

Or, everybody will know what you run skill for skill, and in that case, run the exact same thing as you. Then it's all a matter of skill execution and battlefield awareness. Which the top guilds might win, or they might not. There are a surprising number of "good" players who reacts extremely quickly to what is going on in the "bad" guilds.

So, let's say for an exaggerated example, are you saying if you know guild X, Y and Z runs a total Warrior build, you wouldn't change your build to fit something for anti-melee?

You know, I would be as concerned as you are UberRusty, if there weren't so many piss-horrible smite teams running around in tombs, I mean the kind that makes you scratched your head and wonder if that team isn't full of lobotomy patients.

Keep in mind that the current smite build only requires players to have IQs slightly higher than the average room temperature for it to be effective. So yeah.

Even if they stole a build that you worked quite hard on, they would have to:
A) Figure out all of the nuances of your build.
B) Figure out how to run it efficiently.
C) Actually be skilled enough to apply A and B while the enemy is pounding on them and doing their hardest to keep them from winning.

This is all running on the assumption that
D) They understand the foundation and nuances of PvP -what makes a good build, what x class(es)/skills are best suited for y role, how to tie everything together efficiently, etc.

So yeah.

I wouldn't be worrying anytime soon.

At the moment, I (and I'm sure there are many others that are far, far better than I at this), can just glance at the class combinations your team is running and after a half of minute, possibly more or less (depending on the simplicity of your build) figure out what skills you're build is running and what are the win conditions for your build. So the observer mode, is really only for those who want to watch the going-ons of tombs PvP when they don't have enough time to become engaged with it themselves, or if they are new to (tombs) pvp and wish to see how it is, without spending the next 3 hours to make a group that won't make it passed the Unworthy .

i agree with sir ensign

Tombs 8v8 is a Tournament. In any Tournament I've ever competed in, the materials you bring to the competition are strictly scrutinized and made public.

For instance, in Magic the Gathering tournaments, each player must submit a decklist, and these lists are made public. The winners then often have their names attached to the deck builds and in the weeks/months to come are respected as innovators. "OMG! You're running the JeffMcBoingBoing RavagerBlastFinity build aren't you! Good luck when you face off against TharanColt's FreshBaker build!"

If something like this were done, where each time someone wins or defends the hall the team build were made available with the guild and team members names, it would solve the "I WANT TO BE FAMOUS AND RECOGNIZED FOR MY WORK" problem.

If you want to keep your builds secret, well, I personally don't believe your entitled to that. But whatever. Maybe the community feels differently.

The more available winning builds are, the more diversity and higher quality of the competition. It's possible to think otherwise, but you would be doing so falsely.

The reason many players only latch on to one build at a time is because there is a serious lack of availability for strong team builds. Smite is popular because it's dead-simple to build and run, and requires minimal explanation.

The lack of quality of the average PUG can be directly related to the lack of availability of quality team builds out there. Once they get some experience playing good builds, and working as a team, you'll see the average PUG quality increase.

Spirit Spammers, Air Spikers and Triple Smite are so simple they easily caught on.

Again, if players were more open with successful team builds, you'd see a lot more variety and much higher quality.

Right now the mentality of the Tombs newcomer is that if you're not a KD/AS or E/Mo smiter, you can't get into a group. Or, at least that's how it seems. And it was the same way with spirits and air spikers.

Blah blah.

---

Again, the MtG community has great respect for the metagame, and for clever builds, and they share with eachother. The current GW community lacks all of this.

This is the way I understood the observer mode to be. Much like having a box seat at a major sporting event. Unless you know the plays being run just by watching, you'd never know what you were seeing other than just a big "match".

Sure some people will be able to identify certain skills by the animations, but most people won't.

I hope this is what ANet had in mind... I'm sure most players wouldn't want thier builds broadcast like that.

the problem is super secret combos take months to make at the rate of acquistion of the bits and pieces in the game... and then everyone is just going to rip it off and your work is nothing. if they ever ungrind skill acquistion then people will share again.

It's not like super secret builds stay super secret anyway. Even halfway-decent players can watch what you're casting and figure it out. If a guild comes up with something that just smashes everyone in Tombs, it will be copied. Badly, perhaps, but copied at least in part.

I'm of the opinion that Observer Mode should show exactly what an opponent would see, but for both sides. The benefit of this is increased knowledge for people, and maybe some of the middle-of-the-pack guilds will learn something and become good themselves. Further benefit comes from the elevation of competition due to teams learning new combos and uses for skills. I don't think smashing newb teams with some super secret build can be as satisfying as beating a really good team would be. Beating good teams is where the enjoyment and challenge is. Anyone can beat newbs. Hell, even newbs beat newbs.