Smiting Lacks a "Vision" and thus Continuity

One of the problems I have with the smiting line, IMHO, is that unlike Fire
(AoE damage), Healing (restore health bar), or most other lines, it lacks a
vision to guide the developers along in evaluating the appropriateness of
its skills and their relative strengths. As I see it, a monk is essentially a
"defensive" class, and the smiting line currently breaks that mold creating
one class with a bulk of the defensive abilities -- but one that has a very
strong offense. No other class has such strong combination of both
defense and offense. One vision for smiting could be:

Defend the monk (and his/her allies) by making the opponents pay
a heavy price for causing the target ally damage (aka porcupine)

Retribution and smite hex are the mold that I see. In both cases an
the opposing group must do damage or attempt to harm the ally for
the smite to actually cause damage. The two "high-damage" smiting
skills, Zealot's Fire and Balthazar's Aura, don't seem to have any
"protective" aspect to them, they are simply monk versions of
fire-elementalist spells (and buffed ones at that).

The general idea is to turn Smiting into more of a "conditional offense"
rather than raw AoE damage skills equal (or more powerful?) than a
fire elementalist. As I did last time, with ER, I've started a
thread in the sanitarium for concrete skill-change suggestions.

I have to disagree with you on the offense/defense issue. Warriors and rangers can certainly play an equally offensive/defensive game. Warriors have defense skills, though understandably, the people who primarily play them will be for offensive purposes. Rangers are as versatile as you could want, equally able to assist the frontline, or pull back and defend, with several different varieties of builds from quickshot to trapper. Monks are no different. they can also play an offensive game if need be, but they would probably only resort to offensive tactics if cornered.

Now, in the grand scheme of things, on the paper/scissors/stone aspect, Mesmers can pretty much turn a powerful smiting monk into a big mess with just a few clicks on the skillbar, and any good GvG team with a good Mes should be able to hack up a team full of monks in no time. All you need is a few energy draining skills, and backfire for those monks who seem to be doing the healing/resing. Voila!

First, I have to disagree with you. Each class has a theme to it, indeed, each attribute does, but the smiting seems to only have as a theme dealing damage, with no differentiation between PBAoE, AoE, direct to an individual, DoT, spike etc.... It needs a theme to it. Also, I think ZF is a horrible spell - most spells that deal damage do so with damage dealing in mind, but this is the one that sticks out as being wrong in my book theme-wise. Many of the spells do damage for attacking an ally, or do extra damage to an attacker, or do damage for venturing near the ally. ZF for some reason deals fire damage, and for some reason deals damage that is conditional on activating a spell that targets an ally - this doesn't fit with the others. It is an anomaly among damage spells in general, and is out of line with the other spells in the attribute.

Secondly - pointing at a mesmer as the weakness of a smiting monk is pointless. Of course it is. A mesmer is the weakness of every caster, smiting isn't an exception. I still think that ZF needs adjustment. I'm fine with Balthazar's Aura, though it too is ridiculously powerful - but at least it is pricy.

Hm... I tend to think of smiting as a deflective themed skillset, as most of the skills either cause aoe damage around one target, or damage to a group of targets focusing on one person, barring the less-useful skills such as banish and the like. In my opinion it's a sort of "don't attack this person" type of skill--most of the time, if you ignore the target of the cast, or keep a distance from them, they'll do minimal damage. Smite hex's damage also works in a similar manner--it'll cause damage to whoever's engaged in close combat with the target.

This is defensive, in a way, as an offense-through-defense, as I see it. There are some irregularities to this, but there are with many skillset types (fire has aoe skills that target the caster, but also skills that target the enemy, and other skills that cause health degen. water has defensive skills, offensive skills, and status-effect skills that target foe and friend alike. air magic is pretty straightforward, but has some additional goodies like speed boosts).

So, smiting seems to be the monk's way of saying "don't touch this player"

i still get your point and your idears aint bthat bad but...

im still laughting my ass off about all the emelentalists that waste so much potentioal and make sels sincredibly vulnerable just by being a smiter do do "more damage!!!!!"
It takes 3 mesmer skills to defeat 2 such smiters and 2 more classes (that would be necro and monk).

the true problem is too many people still dont know how to play mesmers and rangers and what tthey are meant for, and its NOT "more damage!!!"
I think IxChel has no clue about how the game is ballanced whatsoever.

"No other class has such strong combination of both
defense and offense."
thats bullshit!

Funny that those are the only ones that are "balanced" when compared towards other damage dealing classes that use spells. Even though the vast majority of damage dealing spells are overbalanced.

Unfortunatly that only creates smart weapons instead of defensive ones. Even so, the flexibility and duration of the real damage returned shields are far superior to both warrior and ranger versions due to the abscense of the need for someone to be in melee range for the damage to occur. It affects everyone regardless of the distance, is not self only, the damage is greater in most instances, and the duration can be amplified in the singular instance of shield of judgement.

Actually, there are more offense through offense than counter punch manuvers within the smiting line. If you really want to observe retribution, then you will look at mesmer and necromancer lines for the spells that serve that purpose. Point blank aoe spells do not compare to sustained point blank aoe damage that moves. There really isnt anything in the elementalist lines that benefit the caster while dealing damage to the enemy beyond aura of resotration and ether renewal. The comparison to the monk lines is more than a bit of a strech considering the efficiency involved with monk spells as well.

More like, dont be stupid and stand next to this player and pray they dont have sprint; while having some instances of dont attack this player and i dont care what you do, but you are taking damage and more if you are attacking or on the ground as a result of my other attacks.

Most of the smiting line seems very out of place and considering the options it has and the power some of the skills weild. Its very out of place considering the rest of the monk theme and power that they weild in other areas. Then comparing against other classes, like the fire line, makes the entire skill set look pointless, as it does more with fewer skills and not be crippled by things like long cast times, recast times, and exhaustion.

I think you all misunderstood. I dont think he's talking about balance issues...just themetic (is that a word?) issues. Monks have the best defense in the game AND arguably some of the best damage dealing skills as well. Doesnt that seem a bit strange? It just doesnt fit the theme of a class that's supposed to protect and heal.

But Smiting are all long charge times and short ranged. It is defensive in my opinion. I see it as a porcupine, hey that guy is a smiter stay away!

All of us?

Monks are made to protect themselves and others, mostly themselves, since the devs knew they'd be squishy targets. That's one of the paradoxes of being a monk. You need a way not to die, while being of use to the rest of the party.

To the post that analyzed mine--I'm not sure why you did.. What was your purpose? Out of curiousity... I didn't say they were good or bad. My entire post was an analysis of the theme, not the power of the skills.

I agree, it is a matter of opinion.

What something does has as much to do with how strong it is when added together. What is the point of something that can do "everything", while others can only do some things. This is especially when that one thing does it just as good or better depending on the circumstance. Its called tradeoffs in order to fit the "theme".

Monks are the jesus class in guildwars. Almost every exploit/overpowered build involves the use of monk skills. Im ok with them having good defense sure, but fot them to be one of the best anti tank classes in the game too...yeah good job anet

why not fix fire etc instead?

smiting is a great line...why fix what isnt broken.....but the elements are way underpowered....i laugh and kill every ele but e/mo in the area, knowing they cant really hurt me....nerfing smiting wont fix that

There are no overpowered builds in general, you can be situationally overpowered, ie against specific classes of opponents but there is no such thing as an overpowered class overall.

Invinci monks get owned by mesmers, W/Mo can bet totally shut down by a good mesmer who strips his enchantments and blinds him, and so on.

i agree, i mean, rangers are supposed to be anti-ele, but not warriors! i mean, a total of 80-100 damage with eq and aftershock to a warrior is just wrong. same thing with nearly any ele spells except air and those do extra damage to every profession.

Another nerf the monk thread.

I somewhat agree with the lack of thematic nature of Smiting Prayers. There's the classic "Turn Undead" sort of theme (Banish, Smite, Holy Strike, Bane Signet, Signet of Judgement, Scourge Sacrifice, Symbol of Wrath). There's the 'offensive buff' theme (Strength of Honor, Judge's Insight), and there's a 'Don't touch this player' discouragement range (Retribution, Holy Wrath, Balthazar's Aura, Balthazar's Spirit, Shield of Judgement, Smite Hex, Zealot's Fire).

The last category is what is causing somewhat of a problem, because some skills (Balthazar's Aura and Zealot's Fire especially) seem designed/balanced for the discouragement role, but can similarly be used in aggressive 'turn undead' fashion by moving an ally into the fray instead of into safety, and as such suddenly become rather powerful unconditional damagers that leave the original 'turn undead' natured skills behind pretty fast. Balthazar's Aura has the 25 energy keeping it in check, but that just covers the balance bit - the thematic nature is pretty much lost from the moment people start running around with it, and I wouldn't mind some changes to prevent this from happening - the suggested 'balthazar's aura ends when not attacked for 3 seconds' clause seems fitting, wouldn't even need a longer duration. Zealot's Fire is pretty tricky, and needs rebalancing before thematic concerns should be addressed.

My main thematic problem is with Scourge Healing (purposefully left out of the themes there), a skill that punishes an opponent for healing a certain target, seems a Necromancer skill in nature, a Mesmer skill in effect, but certainly not a Monk-fitting hex.

Finally, this isn't a "nerf the monk" or "monks are overpowered" thread. This is a "give clear directions to attribute lines" thread, attempting to address the issue of the hotchpotch that is Smiting Prayers.

Quoted for agreement.

Every skill is balance because Diversion can counter every skill. Right?

Ive gone over this same topic in another forums.
Its true in my mind that monks are overpowered, perhaps...unintentionally.
To be clear, overpowering as Im stating it isnt really the lack of being able to counter something. Its the outstanding effenancy of one class compared to all the others.
Elementist commonly abondoned elemental spells and are instead energy effecent smitting monks.
If we are to believe elementist are a damage dealing class, why would they commonly become monks to deal of damage if the metagame isnt addressing the undead?

LMAO you took the words right out of my mouth.


first it was nerf ER it is too strong now that ER will not be nerfed they have moved on to smiting is too strong.

get a counter you lame brains :P

use your brains and you will think of the solution to the smiting "problem"

My thoughts exactly.

Many suggestions on both smiting and on ER have been to balance power
between classes. At this time, the smiting line could use a "buff" to
be a better "don't attack this person" deterrent (Holy Wrath, for example
is a junk spell, when it could be so much better); and the fire line could
use a "buff" to do more damage. I'd like to see the smiting line more
conditional upon the opposing team trying to do damage; and I'd like
to see spells like firestorm have about 1/3 more duration.

To illustrate my point -- in PvE, I'd like to see those irritating plant things
be really dangerous to attack. The best they can do right now is a
random pacivism or a holy wrath (very limited due to the high energy
draw of that skill). Those buggers should be absolutely harmless if you
just ignore them, but when you go to attack -- it should clean people's
clocks. It should be serious deterrance; holy wrath needs a serious buff.
Those creatures should have colorful feathers and all sorts of "remember
me, I'm a pain" sorts of mementos.

At the same time, ER and smiting (Zealots and Balthazar's) are
over-powered. Zealots and Balthazar's make better attack skills than
they do as "deterrents". I see the smiting line much like the poster
above said -- porcupine skills. You don't see a porcupine using his
spikes to charge into battle!

I've started a thread in the sanitarium for concrete skill change suggestions along this theme.

Generally speaking, smiting is not that overpowered. Most smiting skills are even weak, if not useless. Duplicating the conditional "porcupine" aspect of Shield of Judgement or Retribution is a good idea. However I'm not sure you can base a whole attribute on this philosophy. Such "pay to attack" skills would be very similar to Empathy-like hexes.

If primary monks are arguably the best farmers, it's mostly due to two popular skills: BA & ZF. Monks are very powerful unconditional AoE damage dealers thanks to 2 skills. Other smiting skills are quite useful (Balt Spirit, SoJ...), but you can easily replace them by something else. However if you remove BA & ZF, you can say goodbye to a mono-monk farmer.

In terms of damage, I think Balthazar's Aura is fine (now that 2 auras no longer stack), because once you remove the infinite energy engine, it is a good skill for damage per second & damage per energy. It also ignores armor which is priceless. In my opinion, the core of the problem is that similar skills from elementalists really are close to worthless (*cough* Searing Heat *cough*).

However, Zealot's Fire is indeed overpowered. You can deal more unconditional damage with this skill than you would with most if not all elementalist skills. The short recharge and low cost make it the best alternative to deal AoE fire damage. An example ? For 15e and 3s, you can use 3 monk spells, deal AoE 120 fire damage, and most importantly get tasty side effects from your monk skills. With the same 15e and 3s, you can do more or less the same amount of damage with fire skills, then you're screwed with stupid recharge times or exhaustion. Yay! Go, go, elementalist.

Oh, really? Guess why we're no longer discussing over ER? Last time I heard from Alex Weekes, ER was 'examined for balance testing'. FYI, the same was said for weeks about Nature's Renewal.

I was under the impression this wasn't a 'nerf' thread because what you appeared to be suggesting was to adjust the nature of a skill, not tone down the overall power it held. I agree about the fire line needing some love (but as far as PvP is concerned, lengthening fire storm duration isn't going to help with that outside of altar situations), and there's some currently underplayed smiting skills such as Holy Wrath as you mentioned, but then again, there's just a whole lot of skills out there that currently don't see any play that could be given attention, and the elementalist class should come before the monk class at this.
They're irritating enough as it is actually, Holy Wrath is basically what makes them slightly easier to kill. The problem is when they're teamed with other creatures such as Moss Scarabs or Jungle Trolls, you can't just ignore them. I personally loathe having to kill a pack of four of these critters for the same reason why I hate facing self-preservation teams with no offense in PvP - they're just there to drag the battle out with no hope of victory. If they keep following you around on a map, you won't exactly need a reminder that they're a pain in the neck, because that's where they'll constantly be. But that's just for PvE.
ER still is too strong, it's just that people get tired having to repeat it over and over only to get people without clue like you saying "ur stupid lol just counter it". No matter how many times the 'diversion/leech signet counters everything, does that make the entire game balanced?' question is raised, you keep putting this remark forward as your brilliant answer oblivious of how the question actually challenges its very validity in the first place.

Ether Renewal is simply too strong. Players far better than me or you have offered very well-thought-out arguments as to why. I don't see how you can argue against this.

Holy Wrath, in particular, should be an excellent skill -- but it is junk
due to the 10 energy cost and the very poor damage output it gives. I
hope in the next round of balancing, it gets a serious look. That said,
I disagree about your Balthazar's Aura assessment -- the equivalent AoE
fire elementalist skill isn't mobile and doesn't deal holy damage.

To the OP, your paragraph formating is insanely annoying.

Considering it is like a 22 point aoe strength of honor, that doesnt require hits, id say its just a touch out of line. The fact that it ignores armor on top of that would really require it to be reeled back into the chaos storm realm of damage, for cross class balance. This is also considering that spell is phenominally better than any elementalist aoe, given the fact you just cant walk away from elementalist spells and balthazars lasts longer. It also recycles more often, like all other monk skills, but requires some decent energy management to keep it going, while elementalist skills get hamstringed on recast times and exhaustion on top of long cast times. There really is no comparison. Then there are the combination stackings with it and zealots, that push it up even higher, but we dont really have an arugement about that.
Actually its paired in 2.25s and 2.5 second delivery times, due to the recharge rate. For fire spells, in their current form, to even being to compare in efficiency and additional effects against their cast times and reuse times, would basically be calling for near instant death situations with team builds with 1-2 players involved in a single spell timeframe. This would assume that the current scheme for smiting is in line with everything else. Ele skills are overbalanced in virtually every instance, but its one of the few professions that are universally overbalanced. Of course, rather than nerf damage they could always overbalance monk skills with exhaustion everywhere as well and overprice several of them on top of that while beefing up the refresh times and tripling the cast times (or more in some cases). To be honest, it only seems like they really looked at the resurect spells and just kinda left the rest alone.

Time will tell, but it does not excuse what the methods are used while using ether renewal. Energy without a purpose is just incompotent, as anyone under the effect of blackout or knockdown will say.