Henchmen are overpowered! - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

Xonic

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jul 2005

Mo/Me

13 Sep 2005 at 03:09 - 1

Thunderhead Keep mission. The mission that might have given/may be giving some of us nightmare, makes us cry for nerfs/fixes, forces us want to give up playing GW because no matter how hard we try, we seem to fail the mission more than enough times we want to admit.

I passed it as my monk after, I don't know, half a dozen tries with players.

I failed 2 or 3 times as my warror when I try with full group of players. I started making my own group with a henchmen healers (cause healers are time consuming to find) and got laughed at by some team members and many of them left. Finally got to try a couple times, could have passed if not a smart player always grabs the king and love to be the first one charging into packs of mobs.

This evening, I tried it with my warrior again, with full team of henchmen. Not to my surprise, this mission all of the sudden seemed 10x easier.

Attached are the screen shots of the final moments of the mission.

Oh, about the title, it's eye catching isn't it?

I actually wanted to write a "call for nerf" to tune down the henchmen because they were too powerful it made human players isolate. But on 2nd thought, we need poorly AI'ed human players for comparison to show how surprior henchmen are!

D.E.V.i.A.N.C.E

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2005

Mo/

13 Sep 2005 at 03:11 - 2

Nerf Henchmen They Took My Lv 12 From Camp Rankor To Marhans Within 2 Hrs.

Zenny

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Apr 2005

Moa Birds [MB]

Mo/N

13 Sep 2005 at 03:13 - 3

Wait till you try the final mission unsuccessfully with real people, then beat it in one try with henchmen! So satisfying and such a bad sign for humanity.

Xonic

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jul 2005

Mo/Me

13 Sep 2005 at 03:15 - 4

I finished all end the mission on my monk, with human player teams. Enough fails to make me want to pull out my hair. I guess I'll do henchmen runs with my warrior and see.

Manderlock

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2005

TX

Crimson ScS

W/N

13 Sep 2005 at 03:26 - 5

Eh, thats not a real fair compairison. Henchies are constant, meaning you always know what they will do. People however are not, they are the variable.

For instance, it took 500 trys with a PUG group for me to beat thunderhead. But then I hooked up with a good group and knocked out all the other missions with that group.

One try each

Ensign

Just Plain Fluffy

Join Date: Dec 2004

Berkeley, CA

Idiot Savants

13 Sep 2005 at 03:30 - 6

Most human players are worse than henchmen. Sad, isn't it?

Peace,
-CxE

Manderlock

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2005

TX

Crimson ScS

W/N

13 Sep 2005 at 03:33 - 7

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Most human players are worse than henchmen. Sad, isn't it?

Peace,
-CxE

Yea its sad, but that dosent mean that henchies are overpowered.

(btw nice avie Ensign)

Aracos79

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2005

The Great Southwest

Shadowstorm Mercenaries

E/

13 Sep 2005 at 03:35 - 8

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Most human players are worse than henchmen. Sad, isn't it?

Peace,
-CxE

Quoted for truth.

berko

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jul 2005

Canada

N/Me

13 Sep 2005 at 03:41 - 9

I guess I got lucky then. I really didn't have any problems beating the last few missions with human players at all. Thunderhead was too easy, finished it in first try. All the other missions after that were also easy (All with human players).

heist23

Journeyman

Join Date: Jul 2005

R/Mo

13 Sep 2005 at 03:46 - 10

thunderhead was quite simple, as long as you use the catapults to your advantage. that, and you don't light the beacons....and you keep the mobs occupied before they get to the King.

Manderlock

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2005

TX

Crimson ScS

W/N

13 Sep 2005 at 03:48 - 11

Quote:

Originally Posted by heist23

thunderhead was quite simple, as long as you use the catapults to your advantage. that, and you don't light the beacons....and you keep the mobs occupied before they get to the King.

Im sorry, I didnt realize that god played the game. Good to meet you.

audioaxes

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

13 Sep 2005 at 03:56 - 12

whats the point of even playing this game if youre going to play with npc's?

Manderlock

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2005

TX

Crimson ScS

W/N

13 Sep 2005 at 04:00 - 13

Quote:

Originally Posted by audioaxes

whats the point of even playing this game if youre going to play with npc's?

Enjoyment..........

Syno Nym

Academy Page

Join Date: Jul 2005

Les Grosbilloux

R/W

13 Sep 2005 at 04:01 - 14

Quote:

Originally Posted by audioaxes

whats the point of even playing this game if youre going to play with npc's?

What's the point of PvE anyway ?

Manderlock

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2005

TX

Crimson ScS

W/N

13 Sep 2005 at 04:06 - 15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Syno Nym

What's the point of PvE anyway ?

Yet agin

Enjoyment............

Tocc

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jun 2005

The Weave

Mo/Me

13 Sep 2005 at 04:08 - 16

Quote:

Originally Posted by audioaxes

whats the point of even playing this game if youre going to play with npc's?

Challenge, I've do all mission and bonus "alone" (with hench), it was a challenge for me, but now I've understand that the challenge is do all mission and bonus with HUMAN players.

Lag Hell

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2005

13 Sep 2005 at 04:15 - 17

henches r soooo godly cos all the actuall players r either incompetant, or are F*ck faces who drop, or start pissing ppl off. the thing with henchmen is that they will always do wat u want them to, tankers dont run when ther about to die and lead mobs bak to the casters, the healers heal way better than player monks, and theres no need to call targets, they always attack the monster ur attacking.

Gwenhywar

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jul 2005

Shameful Spirits [SsP]

Mo/

13 Sep 2005 at 04:25 - 18

1) Thunderhead IS easy. It's the random idiots we pick up in our PUGs that screw it up. I did the mission yesterday with a 5-guildie group and NO real monk, not even a monk secondary, and the king never even got close to dying since few mobs even entered the courtyard - our catapulters took care of most before they got to the doors (we did take both healer henchies, of course).

2) Henchies are not overpowered ... it's 70% of GW players who need to ebay a brain (or 95%, in case of wamo players).

Manderlock

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2005

TX

Crimson ScS

W/N

13 Sep 2005 at 04:29 - 19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gwenhywar

1) Thunderhead IS easy. It's the random idiots we pick up in our PUGs that screw it up. I did the mission yesterday with a 5-guildie group and NO real monk, not even a monk secondary, and the king never even got close to dying since few mobs even entered the courtyard - our catapulters took care of most before they got to the doors (we did take both healer henchies, of course).

2) Henchies are not overpowered ... it's 70% of GW players who need to ebay a brain (or 95%, in case of wamo players).

A good group can make any mission seem easy.

Lecs

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Aug 2005

13 Sep 2005 at 04:30 - 20

There not overpowered there just smarter and obey u

kirgr526

Academy Page

Join Date: Jun 2005

New Zealand

Evo Crushinators Of Doom(ECOD)

R/E

13 Sep 2005 at 04:34 - 21

I beat the final two missions with henchies only, playing my Mesmer, one after the other. Only did it this way because I couldn't be bothered with the PUG problems when you are a Mesmer and my guildies were off doing other things.
Saying that tho, henchmen are not overpowered. The thing is the missions are relatively easy if you are patient, know your own character and target the enemies appropriately. I mean, if you flick between Titans in the wrong way, you will be quickly swarmed with mini-Titans or if you rush it you will be swarmed with big Titans. Especially at the portals in the last mission

Mandy Memory

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2005

USA

Xen of Sigils [XoO]

W/

13 Sep 2005 at 04:35 - 22

sadly, using hench, i was able to complete all the missions before most players had heard of them

Gwenhywar

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jul 2005

Shameful Spirits [SsP]

Mo/

13 Sep 2005 at 04:38 - 23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manderlock

A good group can make any mission seem easy.

I'm doing those missions with my 3rd PvE character right now, besides helping other people finish them, so apparently I have seen them quite a few times. The only hard part of Thunderhead is getting together a few people that are able to READ, and follow orders. Which unfortunately is hard, I agree ...

thejynxed

Academy Page

Join Date: May 2005

Medieval Knights of Darkness [MKOD]

A/

13 Sep 2005 at 06:47 - 24

Quote:

The only hard part of Thunderhead is getting together a few people that are able to READ, and follow orders.

Well, that is understandable, considering the apparent literacy rate of today's average player. I've been sorely tempted to see if I couldn't help some of these poor people out by signing them up for some remedial reading and typing courses at an online university. Oh, and remedial art courses for those who choose to draw juvenile things on the radar map. Mainly so the objects actually resemble something other than a mutated pickle or a pair of malformed oranges.

Now, as far as Thunderhead Keep goes: I've done half of the missions solo, sans henchman or other players. Ergo, I can't give an unbiased view about how easy the missions are. I think for this mission I would do it with a PUG, but only as long as we have at least one primary Mesmer and one primary Ranger in the group. From what I have read elsewhere, you need someone to shut down a few monk enemies in this mission.

I know, alot of people there often say, "OMFG you n00b you need like 6 monks in the group, lolz." Monks, well... the henchie monks are 75% better than most of the human monks I have witnessed. So make your own conclusions about the need for monks...

Wish me luck on my first Thunderhead Keep run. Good luck to you all on your attempts.

Xue Yi Liang

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

Northern CA

Outlaws of the Water Margin

Mo/Me

13 Sep 2005 at 06:50 - 25

Like I always say, "A bad henchie gets himself killed... but a bad player gets the whole team killed."

One and Two

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2005

13 Sep 2005 at 06:52 - 26

LMAO....I just cant believe this thread. The thing is, henchies cant think. Then again, they cant do completely stupid things like pulling a Leeroy...

aismailuk

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jul 2005

R/W

13 Sep 2005 at 08:25 - 27

Quote:

Originally Posted by thejynxed

Well, that is understandable, considering the apparent literacy rate of today's average player. I've been sorely tempted to see if I couldn't help some of these poor people out by signing them up for some remedial reading and typing courses at an online university. Oh, and remedial art courses for those who choose to draw juvenile things on the radar map. Mainly so the objects actually resemble something other than a mutated pickle or a pair of malformed oranges.

Now, as far as Thunderhead Keep goes: I've done half of the missions solo, sans henchman or other players. Ergo, I can't give an unbiased view about how easy the missions are. I think for this mission I would do it with a PUG, but only as long as we have at least one primary Mesmer and one primary Ranger in the group. From what I have read elsewhere, you need someone to shut down a few monk enemies in this mission.

I know, alot of people there often say, "OMFG you n00b you need like 6 monks in the group, lolz." Monks, well... the henchie monks are 75% better than most of the human monks I have witnessed. So make your own conclusions about the need for monks...

Wish me luck on my first Thunderhead Keep run. Good luck to you all on your attempts.

It's nice to see someone who is willing to use a full compliment of professions within a team.

I tried Thunderhead Keep twice intially with PuGs, who just blatantly couldn't see when the enemy was closing in to attack and obviously had no idea how to call and target. After these attempts, I signed off and came back the next day (yesterday).

Now, this time I joined in with a PuG which was comprised of three monks, two warriors, one ele, one ranger (myself) and a necromancer. On entering the mission, I was pleasantly surprised to see that the group was willing to let me trap and pull and the monks were able to heal everyone, not just the warriors.

To cut a long story short, we did the mission first time.

So the point of this post...there are good PuGs out there - you just have to get lucky to find them!

Fantus

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2005

13 Sep 2005 at 08:36 - 28

Henchies aren't overpowered, they just play nicely - as you'd EXPECT an average human player to play. Unfortunately, as many others here pointed out, a great number of people arrive at those high level missions and still have no clue about playing the game. The most basic concepts like target calling seem to be a myth to them. Many other missions are easy so the good players might be able to compensate for the mistakes of the clueless, but in Thunderhead even smaller blunders will kill the whole team on the spot. Thunderhead is NOT too hard (I have completed that mish more then 20 times, and I am certainly not the only one who completed it) and the henchies are not too overpowered, the problem are those people who don't know how to spell "strategy". Which, sadly enough, is the reason why I prefer henchies over a PUG any time of the day.

Mystical

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: May 2005

Mississauga, Ontario

Inyurface Gaming [IYF]

13 Sep 2005 at 08:38 - 29

Henchies work wonders when you're alive. Right when you die, you sit and scream at the computer when Lina, Alesia or Mhelno just walk over you and don't even attempt to ressurect until they're the only one's left.

Sekkira

Forge Runner

Join Date: Apr 2005

Canberra, AU

13 Sep 2005 at 08:40 - 30

Quote:

Originally Posted by thejynxed

I know, alot of people there often say, "OMFG you n00b you need like 6 monks in the group, lolz."

They promptly get kicked without warning.

I like to set up a team with 1 primary of each class with the exception of two monks, healing and protection and the final slot is for anyone else who wants to tag along, regardless of profession.

On top of that, I like to WAIT. Blind invites suck, if you don't get a message from someone before they try to invite themselves into my group they get ignored. Even if I had advertised for that exact same build. Most people that don't message don't read the chat either.

aismailuk

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jul 2005

R/W

13 Sep 2005 at 08:58 - 31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sekkira

They promptly get kicked without warning.

I like to set up a team with 1 primary of each class with the exception of two monks, healing and protection and the final slot is for anyone else who wants to tag along, regardless of profession.

On top of that, I like to WAIT. Blind invites suck, if you don't get a message from someone before they try to invite themselves into my group they get ignored. Even if I had advertised for that exact same build. Most people that don't message don't read the chat either.

That's the thing I like - when people don't discriminate because of your profession.

I can't stand it when I say I'm a ranger, so I don't get invited, or I join a group and a monk/warrior wants to join, so they discuss "who should we kick...? The ranger!"

Well, their loss!

ddoogle

Academy Page

Join Date: Jul 2005

13 Sep 2005 at 08:59 - 32

when i use my W/Mo i use all ranged attack and healing henchies and they are far far better then when i get in a group for 95% of the quests in this game.

Tijger

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Sep 2005

Mo/E

13 Sep 2005 at 09:27 - 33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xonic

This evening, I tried it with my warrior again, with full team of henchmen. Not to my surprise, this mission all of the sudden seemed 10x easier.

Attached are the screen shots of the final moments of the mission.

Oh, about the title, it's eye catching isn't it?

I actually wanted to write a "call for nerf" to tune down the henchmen because they were too powerful it made human players isolate. But on 2nd thought, we need poorly AI'ed human players for comparison to show how surprior henchmen are!

No, they're not overpowered, they just follow your lead which human teams rarely do.

Thunderhead is a piece of cake IF you have a team that plays with intelligence and doesnt rush/run and everyone does their job, unfortunately thats rare with human players.

Quite frankly, quite a lot of the human players are idiots with too much ego to play in a team. They all want to show off how good their 'skillz' are when the sad truth is that they havent got a clue what the game is about.

Charcoal Ann

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2005

In a World of BADGERS!

Eternal Flame Brotherhood

13 Sep 2005 at 09:41 - 34

i think that henchmen require quite a bit of skill to operate with succesfully. if you have that skill then it is easy. some things are near impossible with henchmen though (depending on your class) for example i spent half an hour trying to kill two priests of sorrows with a team of 8 henchmen. i had to wait that long for the moment that they run out of energy to coincide with when Cynn decided to firestorm.

you can't split you fire intentionally with henchmen. to try and over stretch the healers. you can't spike with henchies. and if you are the healer then you have to heal and keep track of targets.

henchmen also run around like headless chickens if you die. (i've tried to target the enemies while dead). whereas a team of people only lose a bit of their cohesion if one dies.

the healer henchmen are all very well and efficient but they will try to heal you when they are backfired, breeze you around a mesmer, they stand in the mealstrom and other such things.
'course many human players do this too.

henchmen are better than a team of bad players but a lot worse than a good team.

Tijger

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Sep 2005

Mo/E

13 Sep 2005 at 09:47 - 35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charcoal Ann

henchmen are better than a team of bad players but a lot worse than a good team.

Thats the problem with T'head in a nutshell, isnt it? Or GW in general when you actually need a good team on a mission.
Henchies arent uber smart or overpowered at all, good human teams are always better but like I said, most human players just think they are good.

Albino Chocobo

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Aug 2005

Paris, France

Me/Mo

13 Sep 2005 at 11:06 - 36

I won't beat a dead horse ; the thread's subject is a nice bait, which I readily took. There's obviously no way Alesia can be overpowered, with her 4-5 skills and her 2 brain cells. Then again, she's dependable, which sadly is not the case with most humans. All in all, missions with henchies are predictable : don't screw up, and they should see you through. Missions with humans can be a lot more rewarding : you get to chatter, possibly learn new tricks, plus you can screw up and actually get away with it ! Aggro more than you can chew, and end up winning an epic battle ! (Stupidly) split the group, and rush through fire to the others' aid ! Those kind of things feels 'heroic', as this game should.

I remember one of the ascencion mission, as a WaMo, I ended up shielding my monk (after a breakneck Sprint which put me in Word of Healing range a split second before he died), him healing me, and the both of us ressing the rest of the group, holding on while the timer ticked away. Thing is, we made a mistake, the group almost got wacked, but everybody was alive and fighting in the last minutes, and we actually congratulated each other at mission end. I never had that kind of thing with henchmen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gwenhywar

2) Henchies are not overpowered ... it's 70% of GW players who need to ebay a brain (or 95%, in case of wamo players).

Just an aside, but I've seen my share of moron in every profession, monk included. I play a Monk (varying secondary) and a WaMo.
WaMo is not an implicitly selfish choice. Sure, I self-cast Mending, cause the 3 health regen takes a lot of pressure off the monk guarding my back. But I also pack Res, Word of Healing and Heal Other/Heal Party/Healing Seed. Combine with Watch Yourself, I often help keep soft targets alive when overrun by ennemies, which is my job when blocking fails.

There's so much WaMo hate that, in a recent mission, with our monk down and far away (split group, not a good idea), some moron actually used his res signet on the R/W next to me, in spite of me screaming I had unlimited res. Neddless to say, monk quit (stupid PUG, only one had a res signet), I stayed a bit, and saw group die in the next battle...

GuildWarsPlayer

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Sep 2005

13 Sep 2005 at 12:09 - 37

I'm not sure about it but heard the rumor that THK mission has been made easier because of all the complains...

Anyway, I tried the mission several times. The 3 times i've done it with real players we were unable to even reach the fort.

These are the things that annoyed me with these human groups :
- Multiple target callers, all targetting a different ennemy.
- One and only target caller but nobody followed the target.
- Casters staying in the middle of the mobs, not making the effort to back a bit to avoid getting slaughtered.
- People that would split group, aggro mobs and then come back together with a whole horde of baddies to deal with.
- Seems that nobody would care about the king's health... Main reason of failure.

Thus i tried with henches and did it correclty because :
- You aggro just the monsters you want, no surprise.
- Target call and immediately all 7 other NPC will jump on the target and stick to it until you change target.
- Appart from Alesia (wich was the only one death in my THK hench run) casters have a sense of survival, you can also help them backing up if you back up yourself.
- My monk's job was easier because of the proper healing the NPC were doing, making it easier to take care of the king.

If i would have met a team that could play like the henches, it would have been flawless i think.

KaPe

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jun 2005

13 Sep 2005 at 12:11 - 38

They are seriously lacking in killing power. Their spell choices are weird and sometimes you might be wondering, "WTH, I have mesmer hench and he can't do shit against monk boss". Zero interrupts. Necro has zero curses/wells/minions, Elementalist doesn't have high end fire spells, warriors use Charge instead of some useful elite or good shout, ranger only has damage skill and troll. Their only advantage is focusing fire when you call target. But with good group, you'd do it 2 times faster.

Ashley Twig

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

germany

Guild Of Openhearted Deeds

R/Mo

13 Sep 2005 at 13:00 - 39

Quote:

Originally Posted by GuildWarsPlayer

I'm not sure about it but heard the rumor that THK mission has been made easier because of all the complains...

Let's hope that this rumor will turn out to be not true.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GuildWarsPlayer

- Multiple target callers, all targetting a different ennemy.
- One and only target caller but nobody followed the target.
- Casters staying in the middle of the mobs, not making the effort to back a bit to avoid getting slaughtered.
- People that would split group, aggro mobs and then come back together with a whole horde of baddies to deal with.
- Seems that nobody would care about the king's health... Main reason of failure.

The really strange thing about this is: even if you do discuss all the things mentioned above, chances are that the mission will be desaster after all.
Because while building the team, everybody agrees for fear of being kicked.
Once in the mission some people do what they want anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KaPe

Their only advantage is focusing fire when you call target. But with good group, you'd do it 2 times faster.

That's the main problem. Finding a good group.
Some just drop out after their first death, because they think: If I die so soon, it's not my, but the groups fault (esp. monks fault)
If a monk drops out, it's very likely that more people will leave.
So getting a tight crew of non-quitters, good listeners, and skilled fighters truely IS a problem, if you don't have a big enough friends-list or no guild to rely on.

Charrbane

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jul 2005

Canada

W/E

13 Sep 2005 at 13:01 - 40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Syno Nym

What's the point of PvE anyway ?

I could ask you the same thing about PvP but I won't. heh.