Guild Wars Guru

PvE Unlocks

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Freyas
Freyas
Champion of the Absurd
• #1
I ran across an interesting post over at GWOnline that echoes my sentiments on unlocking skills and PvE. The thread is here, though I'll quote the relevant post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mraezk
I've found myself in a weird situation. After nearly three months of constant PvP, I've grown bored with it. My account is nearly fully unlocked so I have no real use for faction, and little desire for more fame at this point. In growing bored with PvP, I am left with two options; either shelve Guild Wars entirely, or try out some new things in PvE.

Naturally I would prefer to go with the latter, but being forced to play through the game yet again with limited choice over my build is a huge turn off. For example, I was considering trying a warrior. Right now I couldn't play something like an Eviscerate or Back breaker build from the start, or even try out new things, of course. No, I'd once again have to "make do" with what the game decides is available. Despite the fact that I've already earned and unlocked these skills beforehand. Somehow, doing that for a fourth time saps any and all interest I have in playing a new character through the game.

I'm not asking for the moon here, just that perhaps my PvE characters could have a little bit of the freedom that my PvP characters enjoy. This is why I think ANet should really consider adding a new type of skill merchant to the game. One that sells every unlocked skill on your account for a modest price right from the start. Not hidden away in the second to last area where they would have little use or merit, but instead in plain view in every city past pre-searing.

This way, folks could start new characters playing the build they want, instead of the build they're forced to use. As well, it would add a little meaning to unlocking skills and gaining/using faction for the folks who have four PvE characters already. This would also solve the problem of some skills (mostly elites) not being available until the very end of the game. At which point, beyond pvp, they often receive little use. It really does limit PvE fun, and replay, when your PvE skill selection is 1/10th of your PvP skill selection up until the game is mostly over with.

The same should be said of items, but such a thing would probably spark even more outrage from the folks wishing to go back to selling 14% > 50 flatbows for 200k. Would being able to buy a customized PvP quality staff with unlocked mods from a PvE merchant really break the game? I don't think so, but I don't expect it ever be an option either. Being able to experiment with different secondaries earlier on would also help replay as welll, but that too is probably not an option.

However, I do think selling unlocked skills early on is a logical and fair consideration. Pricing and costs could be used as a means of balance, if such is needed. As well, the merchant could be made to only sell to folks who've "finished" the game once already or some such. Personally I'd be willing to accept about anything to get this kind of early customization. Something like two plat and one skill point per skill would do. or five plat but no skill points, seems fair to me. Its certainly open to debate at any rate.

The Yak's and Ascalon arenas could be mentioned by some as a reason against this, yet since both have been plagued with elites and forge armor rushers for the past three months, I see no real reason to even consider the effect on them anymore. As far as I can tell, ANet doesn't give a flying flip about issues with these arenas. I am also quite aware that we can go back and replay any mission at any time. I can't speak for everyone, but I certainly do not want to replay the game with the same character twice just for the fun of trying new skills. I do however fail to see why we should not have that option available on our additonal play throughs to start with.
I figured I'd post a thread here at Guru about it, to see what the community here thinks. Feel free to chime in with your thoughts as to whether this would be a good idea, and any problems you may see with it, or improvements that could be made.
O
Orbberius
Krytan Explorer
• #2
Great, the possibility of even more people with elite skills in Ascalon Arena.
Algren Cole
Algren Cole
Banned
• #3
so basically this kid doesn't want to play PvE...he just wants arenanet to supply him with all the skills so he can run off and bash everything...ya that's a fantastic idea.
L
Loviatar
Underworld Spelunker
• #4
Quote:
Originally Posted by Algren Cole
so basically this kid doesn't want to play PvE...he just wants arenanet to supply him with all the skills so he can run off and bash everything...ya that's a fantastic idea.
where on this forum have i heard that all the skills including the elites should be available from about halfway through the game so you wouldnt get those wonderful skills just as you finish the game with nothing to use them on?

ohhh yeahhh it was from a bunch of dare i say it?

i will PVEers no less.

and i agree that they should be made available earlier
O
Orbberius
Krytan Explorer
• #5
Use your elite skills in PvP or Sorrows Furnace or Underworld or Fissure of Woe, or even take your level 20 into Ascalon if you really have the urge to use your uber skills on weak-ass monsters.
Xonic
Xonic
Krytan Explorer
• #6
I propose only people who can't play can go into newbie arena with elite skills.

It's very satisfying to win a random battle with pre-searing armor, quested skills upto that area, against people who has elite skills.

Yeah, I was in lower level random arena the other day as my ranger, wearing per-searing armor and won again a team with 2 warriors with elite skills. luckily they aren't wearing forge armor otherwise we wouldn't have win.
-
-z|o-
Academy Page
• #7
PvE would much more apealing to me if i could play the game through with builds i wanted to.
Algren Cole
Algren Cole
Banned
• #8
PvP would be much more appealing to me if everyone else was forced to use pre-searing armor
Kool Pajamas
Kool Pajamas
Forge Runner
• #9
I like the idea. Anet just needs to fix the problem with people going into Ascalon Random with forge armor and everything should be fine. They could maybe even make it so you cant use elites in these areas also. I dont think that would be too hard for them to do.
Freyas
Freyas
Champion of the Absurd
• #10
I guess I should chime in as to why I like the idea(and have advocated for similar changes for several months).

PvE becomes stale: if you've gone through the game a few times, as things are currently, you've seen everything there is to see. Creating a new character is pretty pointless because you'll just be killing the same enemies, doing the same missions and quests, and using the same skills that you've used on your previous characters.

Low-Level arenas are already broken beyond repair. They're full of people with droknars armor, max weapons, and elite skills, meaning in order to compete, you've got to rush to droknars and outfit yourself with similar gear, making it impossible for people who haven't done the same to compete with you. Having a larger variety of skills gives a far, far smaller advantage than having Droknar's armor.

Allowing people to use unlocked skills can help increase replayability. Imagine you want to try out a minion necromancer. Currently, if you want to make one from level 1, you get to play with only Animate Bone Horror until after Lions Arch, at which point you can start getting skills like Blood of the Master. Once you get to the desert, you can finally acquire Animate Bone Fiends and Animate Bone Minions(unless you took the effort to use an SoC to get one from Kryta), and you finally get Verata's Sacrifice at Copperhammer Mines. So basically, you get to play through almost the entire game before being able to play the character that you're wanting to, and that's not even considering elites. Allowing characters to buy unlocked skills would let you play through the game as you want to play it, not following some arbitrary progression of skills that you have no real interest in using. This situation isn't unique to minionators either- try playing a water elementalist, hammer warrior, trapper ranger, etc from scratch. For a game based around skills, the PvE content is pretty limited in what you can do.

If Elite skills are the difficulty, they could possibly be added to an NPC later in the game. If exploiting the low-level arenas is a big consideration, putting a lock on the arenas so that you can't compete in Ascalon or Shiverpeak arenas if you have bought unlocked skills could solve the problem. Not to mention, the lock on the arenas could be expanded to people who have been to Droknars Forge as well, to stop all of the current exploitation.
Redead91
Redead91
Ascalonian Squire
• #11
I agree whole heartedly with the OP, or, err, the OP's quote. And it isn't because I want to go around bashing things in PvE with my the end game skills, or because I want to own the Ascalon/Yak arenas. To be honest, I played both and thought them to be lame. My reasoning I believe mirrors Mraezk's. I've played through the PvE game twice to completion with my warrior and necro. I've taken a mesmer and elementalist both up to level 18 to try them out, and I got to Thunderhead Keep with a monk.

At this point, it's remarkable that I have any intererst at all in PvE still, but I do. I find certain aspects of it to be really enjoyable, but if I want to start a new character or experiment with a fun idea in PvE, I literally have to slosh through all the crap that is the beginning of the game - Lame skills, newb groups, and the absolute lack of challenge.

Lately I've been pondering giving the mesmer another go, or perhaps give the ranger class a shot. Sadly, the only thing that keeps me from it is the absolute drain the beginning of that game is. With the ability to unlock skills, or at least just have more available to you if you've beaten the game, then it would be a lot less daunting. The only idea I've had to help this issue is to collect as many friggin scrolls as you can and go out and level your char up fast enough to get yourself the heck out of the beginner missions and into the more challenging/fun aspects of PvE. Just my 2 cents.
Teklord
Teklord
Krytan Explorer
• #12
I'm trying to figure out how it makes games more fun to have to ability to use 'ultimate' combos right from minute one? Can anyone help me out here? Part of the challenge and goal of an RPG is the growing of your character through experience and learning new things. Sure, there isn't anything new when you replay it, but how many people play finish say Final Fantasy and park it for a month, and come back and do it again? Myself I haven't gone back to a Final Fantasy I've finished for about a year, and even then if I've really run out of other games to play.
FrogDevourer
FrogDevourer
on a GW break until C4
• #13
Where do I sign? Please!

GW used to be a game with many options. I can understand the current PvE lock system as a slow learning curve process. However when you've completed the game at least once and unlocked tons of goodies, it's incredibly frustrating not to be able to have more options, at least in terms of character build.

Regarding the Ascalon Arena, there are so many issues with this type of PvP that I can't understand why it hasn't been replaced by a serious PvP tutorial. Stupid players have been exploiting this arena to steamroll honest newbies for weeks. It's almost embarrassing.
Z
Zeru
Wilds Pathfinder
• #14
Skill availability is what made beta pve a lot less dry than what it is now (it would be nice to play a non-fire ele earlier than droknars). I doubt pve would be interesting to me now even with this but there are some who do find it enjoyable and would benefit. Besides the already screwed up low level arenas, what's the harm?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teklord
I'm trying to figure out how it makes games more fun to have to ability to use 'ultimate' combos right from minute one? Can anyone help me out here? Part of the challenge and goal of an RPG is the growing of your character through experience and learning new things. Sure, there isn't anything new when you replay it, but how many people play finish say Final Fantasy and park it for a month, and come back and do it again? Myself I haven't gone back to a Final Fantasy I've finished for about a year, and even then if I've really run out of other games to play.
Guildwars isn't like other games: with the 8 skill limitation builds are a huge deal. The point isn't to be able to grind levels or equipment but rather win through strategy and good builds. GW pve is in the middle of two extremes, a very bad situation. There is no carrot on a stick for the eq/wow lovers, and the game is very far past the original guildwars concept of being skill oriented (pve mobs are not challenging and do not require halfway innovative ways to get past). There really aren't any ultimate builds at the moment, but the freedom should be there again to play your character how you want.

Btw certain rpgs, ff3/6, chrono trigger, tales of symphonia among others, I've played 4-5 times through within a year because they're so good. Others like Zelda, if you consider that an rpg, get shelved after the first time.

Thanks to freyas for bringing this up: hopefully this would breathe some more life into the game. I'd go even further and suggest that mass skills be available much earlier for the first time around for the new player; it would make their experience a lot more enjoyable having complete freedom and not being forced into playing bad stuff because they have no more options available.
Teklord
Teklord
Krytan Explorer
• #15
I believe I understand what you are saying, at least in that GW isn't a typical RPG. It is one of the things I love about these kind of games, growing your character and discovering more powerful combat moves / spells and combinations as you progress. Such as getting Ultima in Final Fantasy, and Dark Side Choke power in SW:KotOR 2 yadda yadda.

If they did implement as it is outlined in the above posts, then so be it. I'll love running around in Ascalon with my Zealous Bow Barraging everyone. Might be a little on the easy side though...

Meh, once I've finished it with the characters I wanna play, and assuming I can get into Tombs ever (cause naturally people don't just wanna play for fun with newbs) I'll just wait for the expansion to come out. Afterall, GW as good as it is doesn't need to occupy all of my free time. I gotta peel myself away someday to go back and finish Xenosaga.
Jenosavel
Jenosavel
Master of Beasts
• #16
@ Teklord

I think what you're missing is that unlike FF and most RPGs the skills don't get better as you get further in the game (with the exception of Elites, of course). They merely are different. Ultima was awesome to get in FF 'cause it was an extremely poweful spell compared to the earlier ones. Getting new skills in GW isn't so much fun because they're better than your old ones, but because they make more strategies available to you.

One of the things that's stopping me from playing through again is that I'd like to play an air/water ele from the beginning. However, for nearly half the game (or more) an ele is limited solely to fire magic. Is that 'cause fire is a worse element? Heck no! Well, at least not in PvE.

I've nearly got a universally unlocked account, and being unable to restart the game with all the skills I've earned is quite irritating. I want the challenge of playing the game at the appropriate levels but with some new strategies; therefore, just going back into early missions on my lvl 20 characters won't satisfy.
azunder
azunder
Frost Gate Guardian
• #17
What if PvE unlocks would only be available if someone completed the last mission? That would make the idea more appealing to those who think the game should be played as is.

To bad that doesn't really help problems like the lack of minion master skills.
Freyas
Freyas
Champion of the Absurd
• #18
As has been stated by others, the skills in GW are roughly equal- try telling me that Verata's Gaze from Copperhammer Mines is more powerful than something like Life Siphon or Mark of Pain which you can get very early in the game. The skills are meant to be balanced, meaning that all skills are equal. Elites are the exception to this, and I wouldn't mind them being only available later in the game if it is a balance concern.

Unlike other RPG's like the Final Fantasy games, skills you get later in the game aren't more powerful- your skills level up with you, as you place your attribute points. One of the key parts of Guildwars is to design a good build using your 8 skill slots. I don't see why this aspect of the game should be limited to the very late areas of the game- skills that you capture in Hell's Precipice are basically only useful if you take the character back to previously played areas, or in the veteran areas like UW, FoW, or Sorrow's Furnace(and PvP, obviously). However, are skills like Aura of the Lich, Mind Burn, or Greater Conflaguration more powerful than elites you can get earlier on in the game?

With how skill acquisition is currently, you're limited in your skill choices until you've played through the game. If you're wanting to play a character in PvE utilizing a skill like Aura of the Lich, you're going to have to get all the way through the game before you can use it- not because it's more powerful than other skills(like Ultima in the FF games), but because it was arbitrarily put only on a boss in the final mission.

One of the things that gave games like Diablo 2 such longevity is that it was easy to make variant character builds. The road to level 30, when you got the top-end skills was a relatively small portion of the game. This made it easy to make wierd builds like an inferno sorceress or a poison-dagger necromancer. A lot of people get enjoyment out of playing the game with different builds rather than just farming for gold or items that they'll never use. This is quite relevant in GW- I would much prefer to run through the game with some oddball character than to farm for fissure armor. However, as the game is currently set up, you're stuck to a specific role through a large portion of the game. Imagine playing an amazon in D2 where you could only use the javelin skills until you hit level 50, at which point you could start using the passive and bow skill trees. That's basically how GW is currently set up- you're character is generally about halfway through the game before you can really start determining what you want your character to be.
Tactical-Dillusions
Tactical-Dillusions
Desert Nomad
• #19
I am in full support of this topic.

For the past day or two, i have been wanting to make a nice fire nuker since there is a high demand for them in the new areas.
I have unlocked every skill for every class (except most elites) using my monk.
If i switch secondary to elementalist, i can nuke yes but the energy side is truly poopy and i wouldn't even dare advertise myself as a monk/nuker.

Why can't we just make a new character and have the unlocked skills from the start?
There should be another option in character creation to make an "ascended character" so to say.
It would make a fantastic reward for those who have completed Hells Precipice.
I am not saying i would want to take my level 20 through the northern wall again...perhaps these could be already finished from the start with the map already explored?
I just want to make a good nuker and zoom straight from ascalon to Grenth's Footprint without grinding for a week or ten.

Please Anet, let me make a proper nuker since i have already played your game through 4 times.

/SIGNED
K
KaPe
Lion's Arch Merchant
• #20
"As has been stated by others, the skills in GW are roughly equal- try telling me that Verata's Gaze from Copperhammer Mines is more powerful than something like Life Siphon or Mark of Pain which you can get very early in the game. "

How about Flare vs Meteor? They are "roughly equal" if you consider all aspects, such as casting time, recharge time and energy costs, however, if you are willing to use your entire mana on every mob group, high damage&high energy spells are much better than some spammable 30 dmg tricks.