Casual players can't be good in pvp at this game, can they?

Hi guys,

I came to GW because the game description pointed out that it did not require hours of leveling and farming, but was mainly a matter of playing skills.

Now, I think I missed to identify the real problem: sure, I can get an ascended character and gear quickly, but then I don't think that I can do well in pvp if I don't spend a lot of time playing, because a player who would play just a couple hours a week would not be aware of the new trends (air spike, smite, traps, all ranger, mass conditions, IWAY, health degen, etc.), how to counter them, and MOSTLY would not be famed enough to join good groups (or a good guild as well) and will thus end up with PUGs, which means dead meat.

In other words, sure the leveling and farming are much shorter than in other games, but it still requires to put a lot of hours every week to do well in pvp.

Show me I am wrong and I will be happy.

nostra

id have to say i agree with you, even to get into good PUGS you need rank 6 (1000 fame) and for those who are kinda new to the game and are still good 'game players' its still difficult.

and because your a casual player its harder for you to unlock skills there fore adding to the pain of being able to find a group because you sumtimes lack the 'skills' (actual in game skills) to be able to play differnt roles.

my advise to you would be, unlock two classes and then make another pve character and try unlock more skills for another two classes, and while you are doing so try and find a decent pvp guild, maybe they can give you a tryout to see how good you are, some good guilds understand that for new players its hard and they will still offer you a tryout to see how good you are, no matter of your rank. ask around, try find a decent guild, get some fame racked up, move on to something better if you feel you need to.

no, casual players can not compete in PVP in Guild Wars

not even worth trying

no chance whatsoever of ever winning, except perhaps a few rounds of Random Arena

A little something i've learned about this game, in general, casaul players are better at PvP then the PvPers.

A casual player goes out, does his job, learns to cooperate with his team, do new things for new mission... AND is able to get his build the way he likes it by the time he reaches thunderhead keep.

A PvP player goes out, tests a build, learns that if his team isnt cooperating; to quit and save time, if there is an ele on your team "Eh, doesnt matter pop up QZ anyway, they most likely suck at playing"... AND it is very hard to test a build because there is the factor of THERE WILL MOST LIKELY BE STUPID PEOPLE ON YOUR TEAM THAT WILL MAKE YOUR BUILD LOOK BAD!

Not true for every person, and these statements ignore guild activity.

The best way for a casual player to get faction and fame, is to get his guild out in the tombs, instead of just obbsessing(sp?) over GvG.

And the best thing for a PvP player to do is about the same thing. I myself could never be a PvP only person because I think getting ticked off at your team all day gets kind of borring. Not saying those people in your groups for the missions are much better...

Indeed. It doesn't require leveling or farming, but it does require training and experience in PvP, and a good grp, since this game is called "Guild Wars". When you want to play a sport in real life you need to practice it over and over to get better, don't you? Same with PvP. It is " a matter of playing skills", but you have to improve them match after match.

Of course you can't compete in Tomb if you don't play PvP for a decent amount of time, but this has nothing to do with farming or leveling, therefore I guess the description on the box is about right.

I think you're taking the concept the wrong way. Of course you need to practice a lot to become skilled, but having more hours behind you doesn't mean you automatically have a better chance of winning.

Think of it this way, a 20 year old adult isn't necessarily better at Chess than a 10 year old kid. The 20 year old may have played longer but it's not like he/she can do things that the 10 year old can't. Everyone's on the same playing field, if you know what I mean.

You're right, but I never said the word "automatically". Training means you have to acquire a solid basis of experience which brings you to that level field we're talking about. Then you have to compete to get in a group, and of course, people with more fame will have more chances than you in finding a good team.

That said, you can play a profession over and over to learn its secrets, the right positioning in battle, best skills to choose and when, energy management...it's different from chess, it's a sort of ultra complex rock-paper-scissors game.

Indeed. Chess is an equal playing ground and will always be the same.

Guildwars will not due to the many changes of it's surface play. Attri/Skills/People/class/builds. Makes it very hard to predict any win.

Chess it's a set game and match. While GW is more of well the ultra rock paper scissors where scissors can beat rock and paper can get away from scissors and so on..

It's like driving on a road the same road for years and you know where you're going on your destination.. sometimes you do or don't due to gas/time/weather etc.

But being on a ship in Open sea or in a dessert where the sands change and are harsh and the seas calm one day and wild the next you may make it or not. =P

Enough of analogies beause we get the picture.
What it says on the box is on the box. It's advertising and everyone does it =P Sometimes it's true and then not at all. So because it's on a box "meant" to grab your attention and pay money to buy it is it's purpose. The rest is all up to the devs and the game itself.

Now the whole thing on Time vs. Skill

Time=More understandment a placeholding and tuning of chracters helps one to adapt to the game.
Skill=Timing, knowing settings, weakness, strentghs and having the right build.

Overall=Completely irrelevant... =P The two tie themself so much it's not funny. The more time means more skill? Or is it "enough" time to have more skill? Or is it just the many many varibles? (People, Builds, Teams)

Honestly no one can completely say it's one or another...why?

Because Time/Skill/adaption all come too close when the playing ground changes every single day. You can't record it UNLESS you're with the same people with the same builds as before and then tweaking a little. Does this take time.. Not really. A couple fights and you get a good estimate what's wrong.. fix it and plan. This can take from a minute to a week depending on the person so..

Time+Skill+Adaptation+Various Game/People Changes/A little luck sometimes= ?

No one knows. But hey it's a game it doesn't need to be broken down so
much or it'll get boring.

<Addition>

In WoW It's too set.. if one class fights this class they will lose..period.. now that's Paper Rock scissors. A Shaman can beat a preist and a rogue will lose to a paladin always. Because the classes are too off balance and ITEMS are the big thing to get your adavantage. That's why I like GW everything can beat everything.. Hell I saw an eight W/R team win in Tombs due to the simplicity of the team.. Smash face =P So a big warrior can die at the hands of a mesmer or any caster. And vice versa which is why a lot of people can't tell if a casual player can win or not in PvP. I think they can still with all the changing themes and what not my fiance nearly won in tombs with a PUG group when she started PvPing a week or two later she got her own copy.

Then again don't let a box fool you giving a promise when it's meant to catch your eye to buy. Same with devs. It's to make you think you don't need to play much. But you might end up doing so anyway and those who hardly play wouldn't do PvP it seems..

It is!

I've playing casual (due to my work) for some hours per week (avg. 2 per day). And still I manage to find groups, good ones as well as bad ones, to join. Discovering FOTW (flavor of the month) such as smiters, spikers, IWAY etc. starts by looking at the advertising in the districts. If you look (and ask) what ppl want their Teammates to be, you can get an idea about what's popular.

Countering etc. comes down to knowing your skills: pure knowledge that you can find at any forum. If you know the skills, you should be able to counter them.

Simplified Example:
1. You've seen ppl advertising "GLF Smiting E/Mo".
2. You find out what smiting is (monk spell-line).
3. Read some forums / Do some thinking
4. Discover that Mesmers are the biggest threat to Monks
5. Start a Mesmer

Not that hard IMO..... and yes, Skill > Time

all the flavor of the month builds can still be beaten by a well balanced team. if you have skill
i'm by no means a casual gamer but i have never bothered keeping in touch with flavor of the month. i have no idea what IWAY means. (sounds like some US army missile).
i have got 4 rounds into tombs with a group including 4 henchmen. then we met a lot of Koreans all at once.
the only reason you might need to spend a while 'grinding' is to get elites.

Thanks for your replies guys!

Some of you guys misunderstood my post (or I wasn't clear maybe ).

I'm not complaining about the box adv. lying to me: what is says is true (less leveling, less farming). I just did not understand when I read this that this wouldn't solve the problem of time spent on the game, as explained in my initial post.

And I'm not complaining about the fact that it takes time and practice to become good, that's fair enoug.

I just started to think that I cannot do well in pvp without spending several evenings a week playing plus some time at the weekend and I am afraid I cannot play so much.

At the present time, my situation is not SO bad. I have unlocked most mesmer skills and many elementalist skills with my PVE character. I played my mesmer a lot, I think I know much more than an average player on mesmers and probably more than an average mesmer. I have some pretty good builds as well.

I was invited by some good guilds or PUGs sometimes and I am currently in a decent guild (rank about 100) and trying to get into another one that would suit my needs better.

My problem is that my guildies don't like the fact that I can play only mesmer, so I had to diversify, using faction to unlock skills for a prot monk and for a curse/death necro. The curse/death necro seems pretty straighforward to me, but I have no clue as to how to play the prot monk. Quite understandably, I would need practice to play them well.

Same for my mesmer: I have some nice experience with my mesmer (about 300 fame) but this game evolves so fast that I need to keep informed of the new trends, what are expected from mesmers to fit in good groups and counter the new trends, etc.

In short:

I have come to think that I cannot do well in pvp if I do not play at least a couple of hours, a couple of times a week. Even more, I am afraid I will never be considered as a reliable guild member if I cannot log in every night, as people will make their builds without me if they are not sure I will be there any time they need me.

For example, in my current guild, I have not been invited in the last 2 weeks because their current build includes 5 rangers and 3 monks and I play non of this.

Other game, same problem it seems.

notra

Seems like your Guildies are the problem, not you.....
Many would prefer a good mesmer to an average (if not worse) Prot monk.

Just tell you guildies to whisper you if they need a GOOD mesmer. The most stupid thing you can do, is forcing someone to play a class they're not familiar with. First of all it's tactically wrong, second it shows poor social skills....


Situation 1:
Guildies/Friends: Bunny, we need a Blood-monk with Vengeance!
Me: Ehmmm, guys, I got the skills to make one, but I never played Necro/Monk.
MY Guildies/Friends: NP, just give it a try / Okies, we go searching for someone else.
YOUR Guildies: SHUDDUP! Make the build and play it!

Situation 2:
Me: Guys, I think I finally got all the Mesmer skills!
My Guildies/Friends: Wohoo, gratz! We'll create a nice teambuild that can use a Mesmer.
YOUR Guildies:OMG! We just told you we needed a Blood-Monk N/Mo with Vengeance!!!!oneone222three

Lol, yeah, I came to the same conclusion and that's why I started looking for another guild.

The other guys (rank about 50) took me for a test (I was very lucky, was rank 1 at that time, lol), we won HOH a couple of times, on two diferent occasions. Now I can play with them (still in test) because we won HOH so they said all in the group must be doing good job, including the mesmer (me). But with them as well, I feel (a bit) like a lesser player if I can play only mesmer.

This being said, I think I'll take your advice, keep focusing on my mesmer so that I can be good at playing mesmers and just play with these guys. If they want me in their guild, I'll play whenever a mesmer is needed and I'll do something else (like practising my necro with PUGs) whenever they need no mesmer.

Thanks to all who replied,

nostra

ya...but I don't have to unlock my football...

I enjoyed this games PvE and think that an unlocking system is appropriate for a game like this...but unless you grind through the PvE you can't even begin playing PvP you don't have enough unlocked skills to even be usefull.

It's all sorta relative isn't it, what's good? It's common sense that in any game the people who invest more time will probably be better. But that doesn't mean you can't be good or have fun does it?

My thing about the box wasn't really refering to you I kinda got off topic in general.
My post had nothing to do with ya just in generalization. I apologize it's way too early for me.

In honesty you do better than I do in PvP and I try a lot.. =P But I really haven't recently. Just don't have the brain power.

And I do agree with Dax as well. It's just for all fun just a game.. no need to over analyse it like I did.. again too early today lol

you are more than welcome to try out with my guild. messae me in game and we can talk more

I PvE for the most part but have done PvP when going from pre-searing to post searing. With my 4 characters, I have one three of those battles... was rather impressed with my last one which I screen shot of 9-0 kills for my team. I found those battles, yes exciting, fun... However... I don't get along socially with most people. I enter a town and usually turn off local chat. Unless its grouped with good people, members of the guild or friends, I tend to use hench.

I'm sure PvP would be fun but every time I enter the arena and read all the trash talking of 10 year old "chess players" it annoys me to no end and I zone back out. I'm sure PvP can and would work for the casual player like me. But what turns me off is the average know it alls who play PvP...

It may take a bit longer for you to build up your skills, but the game offers many opportunities to PvP at different levels. If you think that you can be in a competative guild right away, you are probably right. I can't really think of a game that logging in a couple of times a week anyone would be.

To win any formal PvP games, a good team of experienced players with good planning, good communication are needed.

I've done some tomb PvP with my ex-guild with pick-ups, since most of us are casual, we lost horribly. In one praticlar match, our whole team died within 5 seconds of engagement from necro diseases. In other games, we would be lucky if we got a kill or two before lossing.

I've goofed around in other random arenas by myself with random teams and chances to win even are much better.

anyway, don't expect to win much without digging deep into PvP strategies and know your profession, and perforably all other professions real well.

I would suggest this as an option. Saljas guild is incredibly friendly and they don't take the game too seriously. Its certainly an enjoyable experience playing with this guild. They'll probably even take you to HoH, they're pretty good players. I'd take him up on this offer.

Casual players cant be better than hardcore players in any PvP game. The term good is rather relative thought.

Wrong.

That is like saying Beethoven couldn't be better in music then others because he went deaf.

You can be competitive and win, but being the best at anything requires a lot of invested time.

As long as your goal isn't to be the absolute best, you should be fine as a casual pvp'er.

if Beethoven only played paino 3 hours a week then we can pretty much say he couldn't be good in music.

If you've played a character to the end of the game(without gettings lots of free help from high level guildmates...) you're more than likely ready to take on PvP. You know your job, you know how to play it well, and once you learn one job you can handle the rest with ease. I started with an elementalist and progressed into monk and now warrior. I wouldn't really say any of these classes was any more difficult than the other.

I would say monks are more difficult because they are always the first ones being ganked. when I first started casual PvP as my monk (my first char too), I would consider myself doing good if I don't die within 10 seconds of a battle.

Be happy you weren't aware of IWAY builds. Anyway, just ask your guildies: "What's new?"

For what it's worth, my guild is mostly composed of casual players. Only a handful of guildies are hard beaten PvP players. Our team often include at least a couple of real pvp newbies (fame<1000) who haven't unlocked half the skills for their first character, and most of us are ranked 1-4. We often favor balanced groups which are different from the current trend of the week.

We held the Hall, we took the favor of the gods, we won our share of GvG, and we usually get decent winning streaks in the team arena. Nothing spectacular for an elite pvp player, but good-enough for a casual player.

Frog, you certainly have better pvp experiences than me.

fame and no uas screwed the shit out of casual players, i was screwed because of this, by the time i finished all of pve and unlocked all the skills i needed tombs was loaded with rank 6 and i couldnt get into any groups, after 1 month of pugging and making about 1 fame every few hours i quit the game, if we had uas i couldve jumped into pvp right away and i wouldve been around rank 9 now.

Rank and fame are a farmable thing and mean utterly nothing in the real game of tombs and HoH. If you find such a group they are mostlikely idiots who think a small number means something. Most of the teams that win are either well organized or a guild, not just rank 6 people.

Good to hear, seeing as I've got a big fat zero.

Not that I don't enjoy PvP, but I just haven't spent that much time on it. And I have to admit, it's been basically all random arenas - which is sweet, because any halfway decent player can do fine in them, unless you're level <15 and meet some twinkies in the ascalon/yak's bend arenas...

its no harder in this game than any game to get good and continue to play good. in any game, unless you ahve uncanny talent, you will get destroyed if you play unexperienced. in counterstrike for example, a skilled player (lets say Cal-i equals top guilds), they will shoot you so fast you wont be able to move before your dead. this game takes skill yes, but its not a "any chump can come and pwn people in random chaos game"

how would some of you "pro'" recomend the noobs (like me) to break into PVP? should i go to random arenas? i am a mo/me so i KNOW i will be the first to be attacked, and before you say it, i dont have a guild to pvp, so that isnt an option for me

As a casual player, chances are that you won't like Tombs/HoH PvP anyway since it's totally overcompetitive (at least I and many of my guildes didn't like it). I do PvP in Arenas because that's where the other casual PvP players are.

I disagree, it takes a good experienced gamers mind to be good at PVP. That doesn't have to come from power gamers. I am a casual gamer and do very well in PVP.

Rank means nothing, it means about as much as Realm Points did in DAoC. Anyone can rack them up, doesn't mean it took a lot of skill to do it.

It takes everyone in the team to know their character, know their team, and know how to make each work together.

I play this game mainly for PvE. I only head to the Arenas when I want a break from troll or griffon slaying.

unfortunately you're right, the marketting is a lie. the community called the company on it for months but it was a losing battle basically. they added faction to "acquire" stuff via pvp, but the rates are never going to be inline with making the game based on your personal skill... there will always be a very steep path to be one of the PVP "haves". because the whole thing is so annoying and fraught with PR mind benders from Anet, and psychotic pve fans who will flame any and every thread not about pve, I recommend you forget about it, and let it go.

I dabble in the single player now, when I feel like it, but accept the fact the game was made by liars and the pvp IS AND ALWAYS WILL BE, AS IT HAS BEEN FOR MONTHS, a serious grind, and non level playing field.

There will always be people who can spend more time playing. Even if everyone has every skill and best armor, there will be teams that practice 12 hours a day, or whatever. The only thing standing between the casual player and the hardcore would be the sheer boredom from the lack of needing to unlock anything.

Even all things being equal someone would manage to complain about something being unfair...it's a vicious circle. ...and yet at the end of the day you guys are still playing.