What do PvE groups need from W/M's?

My question is:

What role do PvE groups need a W/M to fill?

How do you want us to function?

I have read many posts here complaining about noob W/M's doing stupid stuff.......so, I ask for instruction.........please reply with your experiences of HOW a W/M should function in a group.

I ask this question with a sincere desire to learn and grow a player, I wish for my W/M to be as valuable to a group as possible......when in a group, it's about the team, not the individual.

Thanks for your replies in advance.

W/Mo I'm guessing is what you mean since W/Me also starts with an M secondary but no healing really...

W/Mo's in pve are separated into two categories. The tank, and the idiot...

While in PvE where monsters just whap you to death, you NEED the most defensive most heavily armored class to eat the punishment so that the rest of your softies can hide behind your manly man self... Warriors are the meat shield and as far as I'm concerned, THEY are the reasons a team will win in PvE or lose in PvE. Smart Warriors keep their team alive, noobs do the opposite.

A group is as safe as their armor and that's what a Warrior is. The bodyguard, the shield for the cowering weaklings who can't take a beating like you can...

You want to bring skills that keep you alive and not worry too much about damage. Unless of course you want to do damage, which some defensive tanks can do better than eles can. [Mark of Pain anyone? ^_^]

If you're W/Mo in PvE, I'd suggest investing 8-10 in Tactics and wielding a Sword with Riposte skills backing it up as well as some defensive tactics stances.

I was refering to W/Mo, sorry bout that and thank you.

Everything you have advised I had to assume would be the case, exccept one item...

I am presently W/Mo lvl13 and have gone Axe so far........are the skills associated with Sword more beneficial as a meat shield tank for a group? If they are I am switching.....

That's pretty much it, really. Any class can have a crap build, but in my experience it's usually the W/Mos who forget this simple fact. Make sure you don't and I personally won't have a problem with you.

Axe is fine really, weapon choice is up to you for the most part.

For the most part, the hated 'noob' W/Mo's out there's main problem is not understanding the needs of the team.
If they are healthy, and noone is dead, most of them seem to think it is fine to sprint into the middle of the next group of baddies.
This is often not the case. Most classes have to pause after battles to let energy recharge for example, frequently pausing to discuss tactics is important, watching for roaming patrols, timing attacks, etc. After the first couple of missions blind charging stops working, this is after all, a game of tactics.

Realistically, by simply making this thread, i would suggest that you would manage just fine in PvE, you clearly want to help the group, just remember that the rest of your team are a lot more delicate then you, and do what you can to keep most of the damage away from them so they can do there jobs better.

Also, patience.
W/Mo's seem to be the most abusive when things go wrong, ie, when they die. Sometimes .. you die, monks can do there very best .. some times, you will still die, the other classes will sometimes 'fail', everyone needs to be forgiving and understanding .


Summary
We want you to recieve as much punishment as you can handle so we can do our thing better.
Monks can heal/protect better if fewer people are recieving a pounding
Mesmers/Necros can manipulate foes better if thats all they need to focus on
Ele's can fling damage about better if they aren't needing to run around in circles screaming.
Rangers .. have decent armor class too, can tank nearly like you, but can take no where near as much of a pounding as you can. With some protection they can fling conditioned arrows around and do there thing.


Ps .. and have a res spell/signet on you.

Besides from listening to the team and having a strategy, I really appreciate it when 1 warrior can take charge of the team and effectively call each and every target. This is the main reason I prefer the henches over normal pugs, because you can call targets and focus fire to quickly win fights. The warrior is a great and easy character to play, but most people that play warriors just don't have an effective strategy other than "me run, me hit stuff...uggg". Two people in my guild have elementalists that they completed the game with, and they always complained about stupid warriors that would aggro mobs and not listen in groups. Now that they completed the game with there elementalists, they decided to makes warriors and level thru the game together. I group with them sometimes, and its really funny, because the same people that complained about warrior being stupid are now being stupid. They do listen for the most part, but there are many times that they feel the urge to aggro mobs and move to quickly for the rest of the group.

A small list of things a warrior should do in a group to be loved by me.
1. Warriors decide amoungst themselves which warrior will be calling targets in the group
2. The warrior that is calling targets should call the target before running in to aggro the group of monsters, don't call the target half way there on once you are there. At that point it is to late for the team to help you.
3. When a fight has just ended, rest........wait for the team to regain there energy and health.
4. Be a leader! To be a leader I dont mean that you must boss people around, but take control of situations and effectively lead your group into battle. A good leader is also a good listener.
5. This final comment is one that I'm sure most rangers will get onboard with! When you have a particularly difficult mob and if you have a ranger on your team, by all means use your ranger if he is using traps. I can't even count how many times I have been in a group discussing a game plan on how to effectively take out a mob and I suggest laying traps and get ignored. Or, everyone agrees, I lay the traps, but the warriors run ahead and never pull the monsters to the traps. lmfao

1.) Never take Mending into a combat situation.
2.) Your job is survive, not to kill things.
3.) Take skills that will enable you to engage the attention of all the monsters in a pack, and survive long enough for the monk to catch up with you and heal you, and for the damage-dealers to destroy the monsters you have so nicely clumped.
4.) Speak to your party about aggro. Make sure they understand that you are not "running ahead" but that you are "drawing aggro onto yourself". If the squishy members of the party are hanging onto your coat-tails its hard to keep all the monsters attacking yourself.
5.) Wait after each battle for energy to regen. This can take a minute if people have been casting massive exhaustion spells. Don't try to make it into the next fight before the adrenaline skills run out. Each battle should start with max energy and no adrenaline.
6.) Whenever possible make the monsters come to you instead of going to them. A lot of parties like the Ranger to "pull" with a longbow. This is pants. The monsters will chase the Ranger then. Take a longbow yourself and "pull" the monsters to attack you.
7.) Make sure your party waits to start casting/wanding/archering untill after the monsters' attention is fixed on you.
8.) Say thanks to the monk. You and him are a team that gives the rest of the party the freedom to cast etc in peace.
9.) People have a low opinion of the average intellegence of a W/Mo. Use proper spelling and grammar at all times, and make intellegent comments. Break peoples' expectations. Don't boast of your prowess. Praise your party members.
10.) Be a godamm hardcore kickass RED ENGINE GO GO GO tank.

Hihi..... Intellegent?

I agree with Cagan: you seem to think before acting. That's it, perfect attitude. Don't worry bout the rest, it will come naturally!


*still laughing a bit at Jamski :P *

The reason I posted that sword is better is due to the EXTRA blocking capability wielding a sword posseses. Riposte and Deadly Riposte is an energy and an adrenal skill and that is smart management of your defensive resources [that and with good tactics, they hit back HARD]. Axe is ok, but none of the axe skills carry any defensive meaning in any of the skill lines. But if you want to feed adrenal heavy defensive skills (Namely, Bonetti's Defense), nothing beats Cyclone Axe in terms of efficiency and reliability.

Waiting for the team to regen is good, but the best warriors can draw aggro and stay alive for well over 7 minutes without a team's help. This is ONLY important if you're the group looking to squeeze the most out of your exp enhancing scrolls. I sometimes [though rarely due to rampant incompetance] will just run off while my team is resting to aggro a group and keep the enemy group near me [outside teammate aggro bubbles]. I can withstand about 4 mins. of a beating before I really need a monk's help. Within 2 minutes, ANY group should be full enough to continue a fight but 4 mins. before I go down should be plenty enough. The reason you'd ever do this is when you're dealing with 'idiots' that don't understand the meaning of, LET THEM HIT ME!!! However, if they're resting, they usually won't follow you assuming you'll just go out and die or something...

Prove them wrong, survive, and when they stand up, you should be around 50% hp or so with nobody turning to chase your comrades. Well done!

"Waiting for the team to regen is good, but the best warriors can draw aggro and stay alive for well over 7 minutes without a team's help."

I'd like to see you pull that crap in the UW or FOW.

I think mending gets a bad rap, I put it on in PvE and if it stays on it helps me tank better, if it gets removed I don't put it back on while fighting but will put it on after.

That should be #1! How someone can call running to the other side of the screen and fighting there "pulling" is beyond me.

Ahh the beauty of the W/R. No one ever waits for me to pull with my longbow, they all just run towards the enemies and fire away.

I don't play a Warrior in except for my W/Mo farmer, so I'd like to understand the reasoning behind this statement, which I've seen several times before. (Please understand, I'm not disagreeing, just trying to understand it.)

Does this prohibition include all continuous or near-continuous self-help (such as Live Vicariously or Vigorous Spirit)? I've always thought that things like this can help to take the pressure off the Monk. Please 'splain...

As said before, caring about the group's need is basically what most people would want of you. My take on the Wa/Mo :
- you're a target : you have the best armor (make sure you do), monsters should be munching on you, and not on the juicies in the group. Make sure you're first to aggro, and keep it. Don't hesitate to switch targets if a critter ignores you and goes for the back line : engaged monsters will probably keep on hitting you while you move, and you should attract the straggler's attention.
- you're a target : you're that little flag poking from the hole in the middle of the green. Nukers should find tight-packed critters groups near you. Herd them. Use the terrain to block them. Switch targets and move a few paces to make those 2 groups a big mob. It won't work everytime, but try.
- you're a shield : help the group when in trouble. Mesmer getting clubbered by a troll ? You got there and hit it ! It will probably choose you as the next target, especially if it's previous victim retreats.
- you are not a killer : well, you are, but not so good at it. Don't expect to be dropping mobs by yourself. No sense in taking offensive skills exclusively, you're not soloing. Watch Yourself is a cheap adrenal skill, but the +20AL will make a world a difference for softies under fire.
- you're a monk too : duh ! You'll never be a good monk, but you can help. I always have some kind of res ready. I usually pack a Word of Healing too : it's an 'emergency' heal (cast time is so-so), so you'll always get the <50% health bonus, and it's cheap (5 energy). Can't use it on yourself ; that means you'll have to rely on the team to keep you alive, then. I like Healing Seed too (no self-cast, pity), efficient when a soft-target cluster gets into trouble.


As for Mending, I never leave without it. At 10 Healing Prayer, it's a +3 regen ; combined with 80+10AL+shield+absorption+whatever, it goes a long way against melee-type opponents. Spares that much healing and energy which can be put to better use. It leaves you with 1 energy regen ? You're a warrior, energy is scares anyway. Switch to a focus when you absolutely need to cast (and that means preventing a team-mate from dying, mostly). Plus you can even _cast it on other_. True, I tested it, it works on teamies too ! Great for counter-balancing disease or poison when the whole party turns sickly green and healers can't keep up.


On a note to other classes : it's normal for the warrior to run ahead. How else do you expect monsters to preferentially target the tank ? Paint the armor red ? So please, stop trying to keep up, especially when closing in on mobs. We need room to herd and divert them, it's not as though a single warrior will kill all targets before you get a chance to bring out the fireworks ...

On the other hand, 2 days ago, a fellow member in a PUG told me I was making the mission easy (he apparently had tried with a few other groups before) : I guess it's as good as it gets That was real nice to hear (well, read, but you get the idea).

That's it for now. Once again just my humble opinion. I would like to know what groups expect from there favorite meat shield, as much as the OP does...

i dont agree that the warriors have to be complete tanks in pve. If your typical 8 player group has 3 good monks, the warriors need nothing more than their high armor and a brain.

But your typical 8 player group does NOT have 3 good monks. Standard I see is 2 monks, and they're not always great. You pretty much typified what makes many other players dislike Warriors: all they do is rush in blindly and attack. Smart Warriors know to check the rest of the team's Energy levels and go when the whole team's ready.

Also, some form of res is good, preferably Res Sig. If you're still alive when the softies of your team are going down, you've got some problem with aggroing. Either they're too close to you or you're too close to them. You should be the first one to fall, if any die. Why a Warrior would have a longer res is beyond me unless he's carrying running skills too, and then I question his effectiveness.

At the very least, coordinate and talk with your team. If you've got a friendly and cooperative team, you guys can get things done.

Side note: as W/Mo, I don't think you should be healing so much. Good monks can handle that already. If you must, bring some cheap heal spells and don't put too many points into Healing; Tactics is a much better line for tanking.

Thank you everyone for your advice and experience. This is just what I was looking for. I will keep all of this in mind when I'm in a group. Most I had kind of figured out already, but it's good to know I was on the right track.

As for using a bow to pull as a Warrior, I had figured out that trick already with my henchies.....a great way to control the flow of battle/aggro.

Now I hope I can convince some of the players to let me go a lil ways ahead to get the aggro and hold it,..........and to not race forward to their death......but that is the topic of another thread

As for not being an abusive clod towards the Monk because I just died......I most definately won't be a jerk towards the healer, I know better. I ran Clerics, Druids, and Healers in Dark Age of Camelot for almost 2 years before I left last fall. I know what "healer abuse" feels like.

Thanks guys

Don't listen to this crap first of all. Sometimes people give awful advice on these forums. Mending is an excellent skill for PvE. PvP yeah it's awful but there's many people who play mostly PvP that have wrongly maligned Mending as far as PvE is concerned. A War with a +3 Mending (Healing 8 needed) on in PvE is a War that hardly ever needs to be healed thus allowing the Monk to focus on the squishies and save energy for them. You'll be very surprised how much punishment you can take in PvE with +3 constant health regen and you're normal high armor and absorption. PvE is a completely different animal than PvP. Other uses too, hell Mending single-handedly allowed me to do Thunderhead with all henchies, it kept the King alive.

ya mending is good coupled with protective spirit. But watch out for enchantment strippers.

Thing is, I'm not an elitist. I don't hand-pick my PUGs. I don't go for 3 monks, I don't even go for 2, especially in 6 people parties. I just go for other people who want to have fun. So I take some healing, and try to pass off for half a monk.
Can't afford Res Signet either, it's only a one-shot.

Long and short of it is, I don't have the heart to turn down people just because we already have 3 Eles in the party (did that once, 4 Eles, 1 Monk and me as Wa/Mo, big fun . Plus I play in Europe, can't grow too picky there. So I run motley groups. Some don't like it, they(re free to leave, and try to fit in a 'perfect' party. PvE's too easy anyway, that adds some challenge.

But you're basically right, Warriors shouldn't have to heal so much.