Blood is Power Warrior/Necromancer

rii

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2005

17 Sep 2005 at 10:19 - 1

Personally, I'm an energy drainer. I'm used to draining a caster down to 0 and keeping him there, because I’m a firm believer that a caster (i.e. monk) that’s at 0 is a dead caster.

So, when working at the opposite end of the scale, I thank god that everyone i meet cant use debilitating shot for love nor money, and I can get away with boon healing under offering of blood.
However, I'm scared that one day, someone will discover the art of echo/debil/TAB, and I'll be screwed.

So here’s the idea, energy drain and blood is power. Not new in any way, but I'm toying around with it, and someone with what is in effect 11 pips might even be able to heal under debil, albeit at not a very high rate.

Then there’s the problem of where to put it. On a monk? Hell no, 33% is too much even for me, and whatsmore they cant cast it on themselves. On a caster? (I generally work on 3 monks, 2 casters, 3 warriors, or something very close to) Again, if someone noticed they become very squishy, even though it might open runed BiP up, although i really really don’t want a primary necro on my team, when I could have a mesmer.

So that leaves the warriors, or dpsers, or whatever you use. Warrior more than rangers or eles, they’re often at the bottom of the being-watched scale.

Whatsmore, that’s a warrior/necro. Here’s the problem.... without buffing myself with ji, soh, and all those things, as a warrior/necro how can i get decent dps without an elite slot. Obviously, with it, i can just get evis executioners and that’s about it. So here’s what I’ve got at the moment:

Warrior/Necro

Blood: 8 (Break for +5 on BiP)
Axe: 12+4
Strength: 8+1
Curses: 7

Blood is Power [e]
Executioners Strike
Penetrating Blow
Disrupting Chop/Dismember
Rend Enchantments
Frenzy
Sprint
Resurrection Signet

To make up for lack of kick ass attack elite I’ve put in Rend to make him a bit more utilitorious. Here’s a question though: How much less effective is dismember executioners than eviscerate? Is it worth putting in dismember over disrupting for this half baked simulation? Or is it worth having two axes, one with disrupting and the other with eviscerate, and risking the simple matter of soothing images nullifying two out of my three offensive characters?

Tom und Metti

Academy Page

Join Date: Jun 2005

Europe/Germany

R/Mo

17 Sep 2005 at 13:55 - 2

Isnt it a bit agressiv you havent got any healing skills, but you use frenzy and BiP? (sure warriors arent target often but there are a lot of smite and dark aura builds out there)

I mean the Mainidea isnt bad but that build on 4vs4 isnt really a good chioce, and 8vs8 a drain mesmer would be more effektive i guess.

rii

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2005

17 Sep 2005 at 15:55 - 3

For a start:

- Its not that aggresive. BiPing the monks (all of em) and they can spam like hell... healing is of no issue at all, aside from VERY radical energy draining on my opponents side.

- Frenzy is the standard iAs. Want me to use flurry

? For damage?

- mmmmmm smite. tbh, i dont see it as much in gvg (which this is aimed for). In random arenas I use frenzy sprint and res sig and thats it 90% of the time..... If i killed myself id proabably still win the random arena. In tombs, im planning on getting 7 ra/mo and one ne/mo and quickshotting everyone.

- A drain mesmer isnt what this is about. Im trying to buff the OTHER casters on my team, not shutdown theirs, but im trying not to sacrifice damage as well, which is the slightly tricky bit.

Nightsorrow

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2005

Servants of Fortuna

17 Sep 2005 at 16:37 - 4

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

although i really really don’t want a primary necro on my team, when I could have a mesmer. Sigh, yet more "NECROS SUCK" attitude. How about taking a Pure Blood Necro (read first, flame later).

Shadow Strike
Vampiric Gaze
Barbed Signet
Life Siphon
-Whatever You Want- (Useful is there's 1 odd skill needed in party. Soothing Images or suchlike)
Strip Enchantment
Blood is Power {E}
Res Sig

Basically, with 16 Blood, you get +7 on BIP. So with a Boon Healer, this alone will give you max regen. To counteract the 33% hit from using BIP - Life Siphon everything in sight, using Strip Enchantment whereever you see an Enchantment (can never have enough disenchant). Then you have Shadow Strike, Vampiric Gaze and Barbed Signet for Armour-Ignoring and consistent damage, with self-heal for a bonus. Energy shouldn't be an issue as this build uses 6 Blood, 1 Unlinked and 1 Open to Choice slot - means Soul Reaping is guaranteed to be at 8+Rune minimum (Leaving 10 for a 3rd Attribute line, should there be a slot you'd like, Diversion maybe?).

As I said, read first, flame later.

rii

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2005

17 Sep 2005 at 17:05 - 5

I didnt say i dont want necro on my team, i dont want primary necro, because i pesonally feel that fast casting is better than soul reaping.

i dont need self heals. This isnt the arena, this is gvg, and as was mentioned 3 monks buffed to hell arent going to worry about 33%, theyll steamroller over it.

When im in gvg, im not going to rely on vampiric gaze, ss, and barbed signet for damage. Frenzy executioners etc (as listed above) is much better (personally). Remember, this isnt going in my 'caster' section, this is going in my warrior section, so that kind of dps (not meant to be a flame) isnt really going to do the job i want.

This guy has rend, and you want to take that out and put in strip enchant>? I fail to see the logic of this.

I dont need +7 on blood. Your asking me to sacrifice strength, a whole lot of al, decent damage skills, etc, for +2 regen? As you say, it maxes energy regen, but remember these guys have energy drain as well, so even though my guy wont max em theyll be close to, and look at the advantages.

Read, but not flamed, but not agreed

....

AtomicMew

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2005

N/A

17 Sep 2005 at 20:10 - 6

Solid build concept you got there.

However, by taking BiP, rend AND frenzy, you're probably the most vulnerable member on your team. Warrior or not.
First off, I play a BiP/prot necro/monk, and keeping 3 monks BiPed and myself at good health is very difficult. The timing is also difficult unless you are in a very organized team. You must dedicate one healer to healing you after you BiP, or else they'll end up overhealing you all at once (defeating the purpose of having BiP) or leaving you at low health for a while, making you very vulnerable. I couldn't imagine how hard it would be if I played on the front line. To sum it up, you need really good teamwork to even play a normal BiP necro well. So if you can make it work, congrats!

Secondly, I wouldn't discount taking a self heal. Especially if it's a more efficient self heal than your monks can get. Like healing signet or blood renewal. The whole paradigm of a BiP build is "your energy is more important than my energy." (Which is why you're not taking offering of blood). So in effect, by healing yourself, you are giving your monks an additional 5 energy which otherwise would have gone to heal you.

Blood renewal also serves a double purpose as a counter: i.e., cast blood renewal then BiP. When blood renewal starts to run out, you know that BiP is about to run out too. Recast BiP and then get healed instantly by blood renewal.

Lastly, since you won't be able to do as much damage, and you'll be playing more stand-off-ish for a warrior, I'd suggest taking other utility skills. "Watch Yourself!" and "Fear Me!" come to mind. And a wand backup probably woulnd't hurt either.

PS: BiP doesn't reach +7 at 16 blood magic.

JYX

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2005

17 Sep 2005 at 20:19 - 7

problem with secondary necro using BiP is that you're not getting very good value for your money. Even 1 pip is a lotta energy. When you're sacrificing 1/3 of your health every time you use it...you wanna make damn sure you're getting a good deal. A primary necro can squeeze out one or two pips more...yes such sacrifice is poo for a primary caster...but...its the same health that monk is gonna have to heal (you wanna BiP fairly often if you wish to counter e degen, thus no time for natural regen even if nobody goes for the w/n) ...you might as well get more out of it. Plus...2 more pips is LOADS.

On another note. If you wanna BiP as a primary warrior...you want to go sword. I'm extremely unappreciative of Axes without the evisc/exe combo. Galrath/Final Thrust > exe/...penetrating blow?! O.o;

Nightsorrow

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2005

Servants of Fortuna

17 Sep 2005 at 22:06 - 8

Firstly - Apologies to everyone who gets bored reading this, but finally there seems to be an opportunity to discuss something without meaningless flame.

Secondly, a quick response:

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

PS: BiP doesn't reach +7 at 16 blood magic.

Are you sure about that? I've just rebooted my computer completely, so don't have Guildwars put back on yet - if I did I'd go at check myself. I'm 90% sure it's +7 at 16 Blood, at least I can't imagine I will have used Awaken the Blood with BIP - too much sacrifice.

Thirdly, my response to the OP's reply:

Quote: Originally Posted by rii I didnt say i dont want necro on my team, i dont want primary necro, because i pesonally feel that fast casting is better than soul reaping. To me this seems to be a contradiction, but still - to me, being a Primary Necro vs Primary Mesmer is NOT just a Soul Reaping vs Fast Casting issue, it's also a priority issue. In my experience, a Necromancer is targetted less often than a Mesmer would be. True with good Monks it won't matter, but is just a thought in my head anyway.

Quote: Originally Posted by rii i dont need self heals. This isnt the arena, this is gvg, and as was mentioned 3 monks buffed to hell arent going to worry about 33%, theyll steamroller over it. Self-heals was not included as a sole reason for taking this build, but instead as an added bonus of the build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

This guy has rend, and you want to take that out and put in strip enchant>? I fail to see the logic of this. There is still scope for Rend Enchantments in my build. If the Curse line was taken as the third attribute then Rend could be used instead of Strip Enchantment - but that was not my thinking. To cast Rend Enchantment is, to me, to take attention away from what your Warrior is there to do. As you have stated quite firmly - the role of your Warriors is to churn out as high a dps as possible? To me, taking BIP + Rend, etc on that Warrior significantly reduces his dps as he now has other things on his mind than just smashing his targets to bits.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

I dont need +7 on blood. Your asking me to sacrifice strength, a whole lot of al, decent damage skills, etc, for +2 regen? As you say, it maxes energy regen, but remember these guys have energy drain as well, so even though my guy wont max em theyll be close to, and look at the advantages. Again, I think we differ in point of view here. To me, vs Energy Drainers - every little helps. Someone has already defended the merits of an extra 2 regen pips, so I won't go into that.

I think when it comes down to it, we're taking very different views on the way a team works - and I'm by no means claiming to be an expert on GvG - I'm simply trying to put across the merits that dedicating a multiple utility character to a role will, in my mind, prove beneficial to the team as a whole - allowing the main damage dealers to concentrate on dealing damage, while the supporter can carry out the energy re-stock, with damage (not as high as you've said - but still significant) and X other role to boot.

smurfhunter

Banned

Join Date: Aug 2005

my w/mo uses mending, orison, and healing breeze. you cant kill him.

Sand Scorpions [SS]

W/Mo

18 Sep 2005 at 03:30 - 9

actually, just to point a few things out here: the only difference between two jobs is:

ability to use runes
armor
special attribute

saying you will get targeted more as a necro vs a mesmer is kind of based 90% on the person targetting you...

soul reaping is actually nescessary, i used to think it was just put there because they ran out of ideas but try using corpses without it. you will run out so fast it wont even be funny, so if you plan on actually using corpses, soul reaping is *needed*

and just IMO, the usage of BiP is going to be very sketchy at best. i mean unless can actually remmeber to use it every like 10 seconds or so, it wont change much. and then if you over use it, it will kill you. and its an elite. and its blood attribute. i just dont see this fitting into any build i know of >.<

there are *other* builds that take advantage of BiP alot better... i wont get into that tho.

im pretty opposed, in general, to a warrior using 'spells'. went over that somewhere else before. just doesnt make sense to me. same goes to rend, you spend 6 years casting that and by the time you finish monk is several light years away and buffed to hell again... the debuffs like rend work best if you time it with the warrior attacking him, so like right as them monk hits 50% and gets seeded and all and you rend and they drop like flies. works wonders

Yukito Kunisaki

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2005

Chicago, IL

W/N

18 Sep 2005 at 04:57 - 10

rii

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2005

18 Sep 2005 at 09:19 - 11

^^ Not quite sure on the overall conclusion there Yukito but im going to assume your agreeing with me, being a w/n and all :/

traversc: On the point of vunerability, its like this. Everyone uses frenzy, and i mean everyone. Whatsmore, most people who are w/n take rend (go talk to yukito). That means in comparison to most other warrior necros, the only difference between my guy and others is BiP.
I always worried with big sacrifices that it would be a problem for the monks afterwards. In all honesty, it doesnt make much difference at all. Your 5 for 5 e argument rests on the fact that i could heal myself as well as a monk. Which in all honesty, i cant. Id be taking a reasonable gap out of hitting things to do it myself, which i dont want to do.
Blood renewal is also 33% sacrifice, making it somewhat improbable to run on multiple casters without spending long periods of time waiting around for heals. With BiP as my only sacrifice, then technically i can do all three casters at once and then wait for a heal, although even im not that confident in my monks for that.
I wouldnt say its a stand off warrior. BiP has a 0s cooldown, .25s casting time, and is 5e. Thats really not much, but adding in a lot of what i would call unnecessary tack ons would make me so..... I do love watch yourself and fear me though......

Everous: I appreciate that +2 pips is loads, but the sacrifice (no pun) is too much to get it. Loosing non priority-ness, armour, ap, and 16 weapon attribute is like turd. +5 +3 natural (assuming boon) and what is effectively +3 from the monks own e management is +11 my good man. I believe the cap is +10 normal. +5 is just fine really.
I also appreciate that sword is better, but relying on energy when im wasting 15e per 10s (or thereabouts) is dam nasty for a warrior, so to be quite frank those energy attacks are out the window. And for adrenaline? You want me to use sever artery and gash>? Axe at least has a variety of nice, FREE attacks, even if its not optimum.

Nightsorrow:
I dont really care, its +5 at 8 and thats as high as its going tbh.
Let me summarise:

Mesmers:
Domination: Lots of great caster shutdown + a few other things.
Illusion: A bit of caster hate with some of the best anti melee in the game (Soothing Images FTW)
Inspiration: Spirit Shackles (ftw again) and nice energy management/draining
Fast casting: less interrupt potential, etc etc you know the other advatages

Necros:
Blood: Some support buffs, a bit of ANTICASTER, and nice pve self heals.
Curses: One heck load of caster and anti warrior hexes and conditions. Notice a similarity to domination and illusion?
Death: Some unique and handy corpse exploits, and..... minions. Very good pve.
Soul Reaping: A sporadic e management which is far outpaced by inspiration (in my mind), which is best for fueling putrids, which i dont really need to do atm.EDIT: tainted and virulence (ftw!!!)

There seems to be a stark similarity between necros and mesmers, in effect, they both shut people down, can both debuff, and then necros can buff, and mesmers can e manage. (this is a rough generalisation).
So from that, necros and mesmers (to me) are targeted on who comes up on the tab first. Of course, most of the time they suck so i go for mesmers first.

Rend as has been stated is fairly standard on wa/n due to convenience. And let me restate, apart from the elite slot, bip is barely noticeable in terms of reducing activity on the battlefield.

Smurfhunter: Im not using corpses, so i dont need soul reaping (by your logic). I also dont need runes, i need armour, and i need anonimity (rar spelling)

Arguing that the guy is going to be a rampant incompetent isnt going to make me change the build itself, it will simply involve me spending 10s ramming it into his head that a) killing himself means we get no flawless and b) "read the dam thing, its 10s, that means no recast every 4s ok?" There, solved.
Whatsmore, it doesnt really need to be constant, just on say 70% of the time. With frenzy, and this on three casters, it can be intensive to keep going.

JYX

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2005

18 Sep 2005 at 10:06 - 12

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

Everous: I appreciate that +2 pips is loads, but the sacrifice (no pun) is too much to get it. Loosing non priority-ness, armour, ap, and 16 weapon attribute is like turd. +5 +3 natural (assuming boon) and what is effectively +3 from the monks own e management is +11 my good man. I believe the cap is +10 normal. +5 is just fine really.

Whats your point? The monk's own E management whether that be offering or inspiredhex/drain isn't gonna offer more pips. My point is that when you're sacrificing 1/3 of your health every 10 or so seconds...even for a warrior you're screwed. You need healing bad, so as opposed to giving him +5 pips and demanding healing, you might as well give him more and demand the same healing.

Also I'm not suggesting you make a ne/w...that would just be silly...I'm saying give BiP to your primary necro...and if you don't have one...maybe you gotta weigh up your options.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

I also appreciate that sword is better, but relying on energy when im wasting 15e per 10s (or thereabouts) is dam nasty for a warrior, so to be quite frank those energy attacks are out the window. And for adrenaline? You want me to use sever artery and gash>? Axe at least has a variety of nice, FREE attacks, even if its not optimum. No...BiP costs 5 energy. Rend costs 10. With a little weapon switching (yeh warrior can do that crap too) I'm not so sure its all that hard to pull off. Besides...you could always...riposte them to death? O.o;

btw you can't use dismember...that'll mess up the spike from your other axe war. Unless you wanna count disrupting chop as a damaging attack, you only have executioner's strike and penetrating blow...which tbh I lost a lotta respect for when it turns out that thing dosen't stack with strength bonus. So I'm not sure what your point is...you only have 2 damaging attacks here...theres 2 better ones in Sword.

Also...don't pull the disrupting chop gag. You could always go sword and use that slot for watch yourself with no extra skill investment. In sword at least you have the option to take another damaging skill spending 5 energy every ~8 secs...whereas I don't see that you do for axe.

BTW. You wanna try using more runes. Its one potential a warrior has over necro when using BiP. I'm not saying make a 105 war >.> but its worth considering to take 4 sup. 2 of which with no health penalty (strength/weapon/vigor/absorption) and then 1 minor if you need it.

Its not useful to sacrifice 1/3 health and say you're not the primary target...you need to be healed anyway...but you COULD say that you're not the primary target, thus you're willing to take the chance and start with less health...thus giving the monk less of a post-sacrifice healing burden. The difference is ~40-50 healing per BiP depending what runes you're thinking of using as a necro.

rii

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2005

18 Sep 2005 at 11:40 - 13

The monks own management doesnt actually offer more pips, but the net gain in energy can be translated to what it would surmout as in pips. i.e. if i have a spell that nets me 10 energy every 10 seconds, thats like an extra 3 pips. Its just me standardising all the energy income into pips.
When i do BiP (and runing was always an option) at MAX HEALTH (with vigour and all) i loose 150 health (about). A booned orison heals for that much. (more in fact) I fail to see how much of a problem this is. With BiP on, a booned monk could replace orison with heal other, and be whipping out 250hp heals continuously, perhaps more if runed.

If i reduced overall health to around 240 then the Bipx3 would loose me around the same amount as a booned heal other. Less than that, even better.

As for sword, i forgot that penetrating doesnt stack, so fair enough. Final Galrath Watch Yourself (i actually need points in tactics for fear me, so none of that)

Warrior/Necromancer

Strength: 5+3
Swordsmanship:12+4
Blood: 8
Curses: 9
Tactics: 2+3
No Vigour: Max Health 255 (enough? Dont want to go really low otherwise the point of not putting it on a squishy caster gets owned by this guy being squishy)

BiP [e] (+5)
Rend (-6)
Watch Yourself! (6s)
Frenzy
Sprint
Galrath Slash (+40)
Final Thrust (+40 (x2 if...))
Res Sig

Riposte eh>? Cause theyll be attacking me right -.-

I want to run BiP on all the monks (get the most for the investment). For booned monks, the health loss, im fairly sure, is reasonable. However, this IS 15e per 10s +rends, frenzies, and so forth. And tbh, there isnt the room, me wants a res sig on there, so no more attacks.

And lastly, and this isnt necros suck, its just think about necros.... would you put in a necro over a me/mo or a ra/me? JUST for bIp? Putting it on the warrior seems to be just about reasonable, but putting out a whole char just for this is excessive. Curses is good anti-melee, but tbh ill just get soothing and shackles and go home.

Effigy

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2005

Illinois, US

Heroes of Talia [HoT]

Mo/

18 Sep 2005 at 14:20 - 14

Might be a newb question, but does Prot Spirit affect sacrifices?

rii

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2005

18 Sep 2005 at 14:55 - 15

No.
Sucks, doesnt it? But its a bit abusable I suppose.

Nightsorrow

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2005

Servants of Fortuna

18 Sep 2005 at 14:56 - 16

Well I don't really have much to add to this anymore. I was trying to make a point of taking a Primary Necromancer as a team member rather than taking attention away from your warrior, if you feel that the Warrior can fight on regardless of his BiP duties, then so be it, most of my points are invalid. I just personally think that if I was a Warrior, I would NOT want to be constantly selecting my Monks and casting on them.

As for targetting priority of Necromancer vs Mesmer - I'm simply saying that in my experience, as a Necromancer I'm less focused than as a Mesmer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Effigy

Might be a newb question, but does Prot Spirit affect sacrifices? I can't say I've ever noticed it making any difference, then again I've never tested it either. Would be nice if it did - Awaken the Blood would have no negative

smurfhunter

Banned

Join Date: Aug 2005

my w/mo uses mending, orison, and healing breeze. you cant kill him.

Sand Scorpions [SS]

W/Mo

18 Sep 2005 at 15:04 - 17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

Your casters can do more damage casting high damage spells. Rend was designed specifically for melee characters...

proof?

Shield of Judgement, Shield of Regeneration, Aegis, Ether Renewal, Aura of Restoration, Armor of Earth, Armor of blah*, etc. etc. etc...

LOTS of these enchantments cause the softie to become VERY FREAKIN' hard to hit... There's probably more enchantments out there that are anti-warrior than any anti-caster enchantment [spell breaker, whooptie fckin' do...]

What's this mean? Casters gain no benefit at all for carrying Rend... All they do is lessen their own damage. Go ahead, be a caster and cast a 3s. spell. We'll know how smart your opponent is by NOT interrupting you and ignoring you. Who 'supposed' to be ignored to do devastating skills? Warrior... umm

that made little sense to me.... rend is best when it goes off right as as the warrior uses eviscerate. it doesnt matter if the warrior rends the target when hes 90 feet away, by then that target isnt even being attacked and doesnt need those enchants.

necros, when i play them, dont do any damage to begin with. just exploit the corpses, use lingering/rend and believe you do more than spending 10 years casting deathly swarm eveyr 2 hours or whatever.

and look dont be ridiculous, its not easy for one team interupt every single person on the other team. i mean people get away with casting spirits, dont they? 5 second cast time... good luck finding/interupting the person laying down frozen soil or something.

as ensign once said, the more people that carry rend if they have space, the better. ive been trying to implement that into some of my buids with very positive results so far. so... yea im not sure what you were getting at right there..

AtomicMew

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2005

N/A

18 Sep 2005 at 19:43 - 18

Quote:

traversc: On the point of vunerability, its like this. Everyone uses frenzy, and i mean everyone. Whatsmore, most people who are w/n take rend (go talk to yukito). That means in comparison to most other warrior necros, the only difference between my guy and others is BiP.

I never said rend wasn't good on a warrior. In fact, I agree that it is. You're confusing me with someone else.

Quote: I always worried with big sacrifices that it would be a problem for the monks afterwards. In all honesty, it doesnt make much difference at all. Your 5 for 5 e argument rests on the fact that i could heal myself as well as a monk. You CAN heal yourself as well. In fact, both healing signet blood renewal are both more efficient than any normal monk heal out there, even with warrior's lower regen considered. What it comes down to is whether or not you believe your time is more important than your monks. By massively spiking yourself, you force your monks to pay attention to you when they really should be paying attention to whoever is in *real* danger. You are also saving your monks 5-7 energy in the process - or in effect, a 30-40% increase in the effectiveness of BiP's energy regen.

Quote:

Blood renewal is also 33% sacrifice, making it somewhat improbable to run on multiple casters without spending long periods of time waiting around for heals. With BiP as my only sacrifice, then technically i can do all three casters at once and then wait for a heal, although even im not that confident in my monks for that. If you use blood renewal at the right time, you won't have to wait around AT ALL for a heal. Although since it is difficult to use, I can see how you might not to run it in an already complex build.

And also, 3 sup runes with no vigor? You've got to be kidding me. You'll be dead before your opponents even notice you. The main reason warriors aren't targetted is because they are harder to kill and more easy to counter - not because they are innately any less dangerous. If you're going to do a caster job, be on the front line AND be more fragile than everyone else on your team, you are going to be in very big trouble. "Warriors last" is not some divine commandment set in stone.

Lastly: you don't have to be "putting out a whole char just for BiP" with a necro primary. There are so many things you can do. In PvE, my favorite build is a pure blood BiPer. For PvP, you can do BiP/healing or BiP/protection and do very well. Overall, a BiP necro is a very strong build, and is a solid reason to go primary necro.

JYX

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2005

18 Sep 2005 at 20:08 - 19

No its a chance. I suggested 2 -health sups with 1 vigor and 1 absorption. That way you'll have low health (though not as low as rii suggested)...but you'll still be hard to kill. Seriously though, as long as you're not in danger of getting spiked to death more than a caster you're ok, and I don't think you are with this setup...the amount of health burnt during a fight go into the hundreds if not thousands...100hp will be gone in a flash...and i daresay not missed.

The reason warriors are targetted last is because people RECOGNISE they're harder to kill. I really really doubt in a gvg they want to cycle attacks on every single member including warriors to see if on the off chance the guy's runed to hell.

Nightsorrow

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2005

Servants of Fortuna

18 Sep 2005 at 20:57 - 20

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Lastly: you don't have to be "putting out a whole char just for BiP" with a necro primary. There are so many things you can do. In PvE, my favorite build is a pure blood BiPer. For PvP, you can do BiP/healing or BiP/protection and do very well. Overall, a BiP necro is a very strong build, and is a solid reason to go primary necro. This is the point I've tried to make, but have given up on.

rii

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2005

19 Sep 2005 at 15:56 - 21

Shadow Strike
Vampiric Gaze
Barbed Signet
Life Siphon
-Whatever You Want- (Useful is there's 1 odd skill needed in party. Soothing Images or suchlike)
Strip Enchantment
Blood is Power {E}
Res Sig

Pve? This is gvg pvp. So to be as polite as possible, i dont care. In pve, you can do whatever you want, and as long as its organised itll work. So stop talking about it as if it mattered.

Yes, its a solid Build. So is a quickshot ranger, a evis spiker, and a smiter. However, DONT NEED THIS. Stop walking into the thread, seeing any comment on necros then going off on some unrelated tangent about how necros are useful. i know their useful, and i really really dont need to be told it by you.

BiP healing/prot? Im assuming you mean a ne.mo. Again, stop lecturing me on the possibilties. I know what they are, and i am fairly certain there are many things better than that. I only have 8 slots, and there are 36 profession mixes. Go figure i might not be able to use all of them..... in fact, just read this thread, it sums it up in twice the space but it saves me time regurgitating things:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=45301
There are many points there of great use, and one of them is for the last time:
i d o n t w a n t a n e c r o p r i m a r y
im sure you can do well with them, i know i can, but again, ive got better things to do than use one.

Lets go back to that build of yours. Im assuming its pve, since a few points are quite important in regards to pvp:

'i dont need self heals'
i said this many times. The point of teamwork is you streamline jobs to sqeeze as much efficiency out of people as possible. This is why i dont want self heals. Healing is the monks job. Necros job is buffing, debuffing, and hexes. Roughly. If a monk has oob and bip, and uses a non priority heal to do the wa/n, healing is moot, and whatsmore, again, its a matter of space. ive only got 8 skill slots, so me wasting them on what is meant to be someone elses job is shockingly stupid in pvp.

The damage is awful. barbed signet has a 30s cooldown doesnt it? maybe it got buffed, i cba to go look, but if it is, then frankly its a crappy skill unless you get 8x of em and spike someone, and i cant remember the damage so maybe even that sucks.
vampiric gaze is stupidly overpriced as a source of damage and healing. If it was any cheaper then it would be overpowered, but as it is, im not spending 10e for an orison (without divine bonus as well) and a very weak orb.
Finally shadow strike is again somewhat silly. Its better, since the damage is higher, but im not sold.
So what is the advantage of this over a wa/n. Surely, you didnt just insert yourself in the thread to make a completely unecessary and pretentious rant about necros?
You must have come here to try and give something better than what i had, which you havent. All youve got it a more efficient bip, at the expense of a greatly reduced character. And again, the whole point of the build was not wasting a whole character for one skill. And dont come back with 'but its not wasted, blood is good', because as i have explained, not in this context, not with those skills.

The sword guy is much better, and you no longer, nor ever did, seem to have a point.

JYX

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2005

19 Sep 2005 at 16:26 - 22

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

Serps

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Sep 2005

Brisbane, Australia

N/Me

19 Sep 2005 at 22:55 - 23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Everous

...i think you should go necro primary...

...they're useful... In what way?

Zeru

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2005

19 Sep 2005 at 23:16 - 24

Even an ele is useful...for ether renewal

BiP is an awesome energy management elite because it doesn't come in bursts like offering or edrain. Too many times I see someone use edrain, then drain them right back before they get a chance to use it. I definitely wouldn't sacrifice a spot in the team for a necro just for bip. A blood biper/damager isn't a terrible idea but it's not all that great either and is only good because of BiP. The other alternative to bip on the war is to run it on dual monks. The 1 pip is not worth it to switch to necro unless you've already got other good reasons to be necro (rare).

Also, if you aren't using a warrior elite, go sword. Galrath/Final are solid stuff, just not at eviscerate or Dev Hammer level.

Nightsorrow

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2005

Servants of Fortuna

20 Sep 2005 at 18:43 - 25

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

JYX

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2005

20 Sep 2005 at 19:13 - 26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightsorrow

Well I thought this thread was going in a constructive direction until you posted this.

Well you thought wrong. Baby.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightsorrow I had already accepted that you weren't interested in my way of thinking - hence why I had withdrawn from the thread.

And yet...you're still here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightsorrow And a rant about Necros? I made my point in 1 post and kept my replies as on-topic as is realisticly possible No. Not posting would have been more on-topic. He stated very very clearly in his first post the team build he was working with. If that wasn't enough...he also said quite specifically that he dosen't want a primary necro. Despite that, you questioned his attitude towards necros which had nothing to do with the topic of a BiP Warrior/Necro. If you got nothing to say, say nothing. If the topic is hopeless (ie. I wanna be a heal-only primary warrior!)...you tell them its hopeless and why.

Oh btw. You tried to make your point in 1 post and then re-asserted yourself when he made it quite clear he wasn't interested.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightsorrow

Well, whatever, I assumed you were someone who actually took care to debate something, rather than arguing - I was clearly wrong. He wanted to debate a Warrior/Necro build...not the good/bad points of primary necros. Yet...you decided to cram it down anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightsorrow

Good luck with your build, goodbye. ...$20 says you're still reading this thread.

.......oonnn...topic. I'm just wondering how much DPS this guy can actually pull off. 3 monks to me seems enough to heal. 2 warriors and a BiP bot that you decided to stick a sword to dosen't seem enough in any way. I'm really not expecting galrath slash/final thrust to shake the earth...

AtomicMew

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2005

N/A

20 Sep 2005 at 19:32 - 27

Quote:

i d o n t w a n t a n e c r o p r i m a r y Then stop saying things like "you must dedicate an entire build to make a necro primary BiP" y o u j a c k a s s.

If you are going to make such an obviously false innuendo on my favorite class, then I'm going to respond. Don't like it? "To put it politely, I don't care."

Spura

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Feb 2005

20 Sep 2005 at 19:49 - 28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

rii

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2005

21 Sep 2005 at 12:53 - 29

You snare him, then he wont run. I mean, some people might, but in all honesty, running while snared or while they have speed buffs is stupid, since your just dishing out free crits on yourself to no advantage. So snare, rend and thats nice.

traversc: Your getting me confused, or im getting confused, or maybe were all confused.
A necro primary bIp does in no way contribute to what the point of this thread was, i.e. getting good damage out of a wa/n without an elite. Im not arguing about primary necros, and if i am, its cause i was drawn into it. I dont want to be, ill go and make another 'are primary necros good?' thread if you want, but thats utterly, utterly useless, since we all know the answer is yes, since i get 18 curses. Baby.
The only thing i said that was anywhere near 'you need to dedicate...yadayada' was this:
I assumed that since this was a thread about bIp and damage, your suggestions was based through how a primary could do damage. As i pointed out in my last post, not only does this require you to use up all of your skill slots with things like..... vampiric gaze, thus using the entire build, the damage is still awful.
This is true, so what is the problem with this assertation?

'jackass'
Really? Who am I? Whats my name? Know anything about me? Have I insulted you? God man, get a grip. The only thing ive said that could be vaguely interpreted as insulting was that you havent contributed anything to this thread, which is in fact true. And im fairly sure calling me a jackass then stating 'i dont care' is somewhat a contradiction. If you dont care, leave.

onnnnn topic:

dps? Its quite evident its minimal. Ive tried this build in the arena and i managed to get some good results, but most monks there arent the greatest. The only additional damage besides frenzy is galrath and final, both of which are nowhere near spammable. Ive given up on this concept in any serious way, unless someone comes in with a great idea, and if i ever use bIp itll be on a ne/ and ill put him in place of the me/mo.

EDIT: Nightsorrow my man, ive just scanned through the thread, and it turns out you havent actually said anything about wa/n w/o elite dps (which is the point of this topic). Your posts went:
- 'omg necros sucks attitudes' suck *posts build*
- *defends build*
- *several posts about how im ignorant, or at least some reference to the fact*
- your last post
so mate, stop giving it this righteous rubbish:

"I made my point in 1 post and kept my replies as on-topic as is realisticly possible" You havent actually mentioned the topic yet, and it seems you dont even know what it is.