Flurry and Damage: What does it really mean? Your guide to Flurry DOT.

id0l

id0l

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jul 2005

Austin, Texas, ya'll.

A/D

19 Sep 2005 at 18:47 - 1
Hi Guruians, I was bored this afternoon and decided to come up with a little formula for deciphering just *what* Flurry does. Alot of people tend to overlook Flurry because of it's decreased damage. I mean, why use Flurry when you can use Frenzy (or Tiger's Fury) for no damage debuff (and the same increase of attack speed)? Of course you take double damage though...or lose all non-attack skills...but who cares right, tanks are tanks!

Well here ya go, and I have even numbered the steps for you:

NOTE: All mathematics used were based off of the 1.33/second swing time of a sword or axe. You could, however, replace this with 1.75/second swing time with a hammer, or refires/second with a bow, and get similiar results.


...First, we derive the damage over time for 5 seconds of normal attacks...

#1
5 / 1.33 = 3.759~ (swings in 5 seconds)

#2
3.759~ x 20* = 75.188 (damage output over 5 seconds)



...Now for damage over time for the 5 seconds under Flurry...

#3
5 / .8778 = 5.696~ (swings in 5 seconds)

#4
5.696~ x 15** = 85.441 (damage output over 5 seconds)


~ Indicates a long continuation of numbers.

* This number can be substituted for one on your choosing, i.e. try to pick one closest to your estimated damage per swing.

** This number is 75% of the first (or if you picked your own number, use 75% of it); in other words - you are dealing 25% less damage (obviously, as you are under Flurry).

Note: .8778 is 66% of 1.33; in other words - swing time under Flurry is .8778~ seconds per swing.

Now for a little old school algebra...and you thought what they taught you in school would never serve any real world use!

75.188
------
100

=

85.441
-----
x

x = 113.636~ (your damage output % under Flurry vs. normal)

So, after 5 seconds of Flurry, you have done approximately 113% damage over time as you would without.

Want more proof? Let's try using a 50 dmg baseline for avg. damage/swing. It comes down to this:

Normal: 3.759~ x 50 = 187.96~
Flurry: 5.696~ x 37.5 = 213.60~

187.96 damage vs. 213.60 damage over 5 secs. Need I go on?

Fine...

187.96
-------
100

=

213.60
------
x

x = 113.64~

Hmm...virtually identical increase in damage over time as the first set of numbers.


Basically, as you can see, there is an advantage to Flurry that many people do not realize. I too often seeing it being passed off as a crappy skill as compared to Frenzy, Tiger's Fury, etc., when it is obvious here that it not only provides increases in attack speed, increased adrenaline gain, AND increased damage over time, but it does so without any negative consequences (Frenzy - take double damage, Tiger's Fury - disables non attack skills for 5 seconds, etc.). However, it has a slightly shorter run-time than Frenzy (8 secs vs. 5) and Tiger's Fury (only if your Beast Mastery is equal or higher than 6, I believe).

Sure, you're still going to eke out a little more damage using Frenzy/Tigers Fury for the same 5 second duration. But maybe not safely. As said before you still get a 13% increase in damage over time versus normal, plus a 33% increase in adrenaline gain. What's not to like? Combine it all with a zealous haft/hilt, and you're golden.

Did I forget to mention that even just 5 seconds of Flurry is almost the perfect amount of time to charge up your adrenaline for spiking some of our favorite axe skills? And even if not, -zap-, right back into Flurry.

Do the pros outweigh the cons? To me they do. Then again, I'm not saying Flurry > Frenzy > Tiger's Fury, or anything to that nature. Just explaining the facts...

Go ahead and discuss, I know you want to. Though please keep it civilized and mature, as this is not a "skill 'a' is better than skill 'b'" topic.

Note: If I made any mathematical errors, please let me know, and I will correct.

Racthoh

Racthoh

Did I hear 7 heroes?

Join Date: May 2005

Scars Meadows [SMS], Guild Leader (Not Recruiting)

19 Sep 2005 at 19:06 - 2
Good to know I'm not wasting a spot on my tab for Flurry. As far as I can tell, the bonus damage granted by attack skills isn't affected by the 25% less damage. So that 33% faster adrenaline gain means I'm charging Galrath and Final more often and dishing out the extra damage from those a lot.

Nice work.

Deathlord

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

PVP Ranger: Does Stuff Fast

XXX

W/Mo

19 Sep 2005 at 22:31 - 3
I'm not exactly a wiz at numbers so I didn't look over the formula in exact detail, but the effects make me smile. I've used Flurry for a majority of my playing experience and have pretty much known it provided an overall benefit, I just didn't how much it helped me by in number form. Anyway, good work.

Frezak_bloodbath

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Mar 2005

Where I can Frag

Turnips From Hell

E/W

21 Sep 2005 at 11:41 - 4
I always preferred Flurry because i got extra fighting speed and no seriously negative effects: with an extra 10dmg for conjure flame, and it charges quite fast A Galrath's slash, and i couldnt use frenzy, cause i'm an E/W.. Which isnt very tough..

White Designs

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jul 2005

Illinois

None

23 Sep 2005 at 17:48 - 5
Just saying that you do slightly more damage with Flurry doesn't make it any less bad.

The fact is that Flurry gives you much less damage than Frenzy, and a good warrior doesn't need to worry much about the double damage downside.

Whether or not its better than Tiger's doesn't really matter to me because that skill sucks on a Warrior.

id0l

id0l

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jul 2005

Austin, Texas, ya'll.

A/D

23 Sep 2005 at 18:57 - 6
Quote:
Originally Posted by White Designs
Just saying that you do slightly more damage with Flurry doesn't make it any less bad.
Ah, I'd like and explanation how increased damage, and increased adrenaline, without pitfalls is considered "bad."

Quote: Originally Posted by White Designs The fact is that Flurry gives you much less damage than Frenzy, and a good warrior doesn't need to worry much about the double damage downside. I never said it gave you more damage then Frenzy; in fact I said you get more damage using it vs. Flurry.

Explain what you consider a "good warrior", please. Because as far as taking damage is concerned, that all depends on who the other team is targeting, and not your l33t w4rr10r sk1llz. And it's really easy to kill a warrior using Frenzy, an Air Spiker could probably kill you in about 2-3 seconds. Not to mention any other decent caster.

And where did I mention in this guide that this was a strict PvP tutorial on Flurry? Sure, I MAY opt to use Frenzy in a PvP scenario, but it sure as hell would never be in my skill bar if I'm playing PvE.

These are all moot points, taken more out of opinion than fact. Saying "Flurry is bad" just because you don't prefer using it is just another example of the bias found in this game.


Quote: Originally Posted by White Designs
Whether or not its better than Tiger's doesn't really matter to me because that skill sucks on a Warrior. Yet again more bias, opinion, and one-sidedness, without factual bases. Try to keep the criticism to some level of intelligence besides "This skill sucks, blah blah blah." I must ask you to re-read some of the important parts of my post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by id0l
Sure, you're still going to eke out a little more damage using Frenzy/Tigers Fury for the same 5 second duration...Then again, I'm not saying Flurry > Frenzy > Tiger's Fury, or anything to that nature.

Go ahead and discuss, I know you want to. Though please keep it civilized and mature, as this is not a "skill 'a' is better than skill 'b'" topic.

Tarot Ribos

Tarot Ribos

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jul 2005

Me/E

23 Sep 2005 at 21:19 - 7
Uh... okay. 20 damage per swing is a bit... wrong. You forgot to factor in strength, not to mention levels above 12 in weapon mastery. So I'm going to go out on a limb and say an average of 25 damage per swing. This could add up. Second, don't swords and axes strike every 1.25 seconds? I'm fairly sure of that...

*whips out calculator*

4 strikes normally in five seconds gets you roughly 100 damage.

Under flurry, you get 6 strikes in 5 seconds, at only an average of 18.75 damage per strike. Which means you've got 112.5 damage over that time.

5 energy is being spent every 5 seconds for an extra half-attack. That doesn't sound very efficient.

On a primary warrior, who gets 2/3 of an energy per second, that only gets you 3.333333 energy per five seconds. Which means you're losing 1.666666667 energy. So you will run out.

Meanwhile, what about Wild Blow? Seeking Blade (for a Sword warrior, which is what I'm working off of)? Now, I may forget how much a critical hit strikes for, but I know it goes for max damage of weapon plus something... and it ends stances. Not bad. Seeking Blade? It strikes for over 16 more damage every 4 seconds (as I'll assume you've got more than 12 Swordsmanship), which is undeniably better than the 12.5 extra flurry gets you.

I will make concessions on the adrenal boost Flurry gives you. But Seeking Blade can also do even more damage AND cause bleeding. Flurry has its uses, but only in certain builds, like heavy adrenaline-based ones or IW Mesmers. Otherwise, it may provide a benefit... but not as great as other skills do.

arredondo

arredondo

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2005

23 Sep 2005 at 21:28 - 8
^^^ So you concede that Flurry is decent in certain setups, which is all the OP is showing. Heavy adrenal builds as you mention definitely improve with this since they can use a subclass other than Ranger to get an attack speed enhancement without the damage penalty of Frenzy. For a net cost of 1.6 energy every five seconds, that appears to be well worth it to include Flurry on select builds. And the occassional encounter with counter skills is never a reason to say a tactic isn't worth using. Stance breaking isn't exactly running out of control, especially when only 1 of the 6 classes stops it.

Nice info id0l. I love reading useful stuff like this.

id0l

id0l

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jul 2005

Austin, Texas, ya'll.

A/D

24 Sep 2005 at 00:11 - 9
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarot Ribos
Uh... okay. 20 damage per swing is a bit... wrong. You forgot to factor in strength, not to mention levels above 12 in weapon mastery. So I'm going to go out on a limb and say an average of 25 damage per swing. This could add up. Second, don't swords and axes strike every 1.25 seconds? I'm fairly sure of that...
Nope, swords and axes have a 1.33 second swing time. Using 1.25 in your math kind of screwed things up for you, if you are looking for realistic damage numbers. And 20 seconds isn't "wrong," it was a general base damage number; like I said you can stick in ANY number and get the same basic increase in damage over time (you obviously didn't try this). And strength is irrelevant in this whole discussion...the armor penetration strength provides is only applied during [attack] skills. And in this case Flurry comes out on top still, because you can spam [adrenaline] attacks more often. And the sword/axe/hammer mastery level you are at has nothing to do with anything here, either. We are simply using average damage '*' (20 in this case) as a base number for mathematical purposes. How you derive '*' depends on many things; your mastery level, your weapon damage, etc. But none of those things specifically have any affect on the formula itself - only on average damage '*'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarot Ribos
5 energy is being spent every 5 seconds for an extra half-attack. That doesn't sound very efficient. I never said it was efficient, or that you need to run it constantly...note that I did say however, that using a zealous mod for your sword/axe would make you "golden." Maybe I should have just recommended the zealous mod if you want to run it continuously (as I do). I make up the 5 energy very quickly. In fact, I never run out of energy (very rarely that I do). By the time Flurry ends I have regained, usually, 6 energy or so (purely from Flurry)...if I have been attacking the entire time. This is with a zealous axe haft of course. So figure about 8 energy gained during 5 seconds, after the initial cost of Flurry.

Over 5 seconds:

Spend 5e = Gain 8e.

...considering 1 energy regen from the zealous mod.

Quote: Originally Posted by Tarot Ribos Meanwhile, what about Wild Blow? Seeking Blade (for a Sword warrior, which is what I'm working off of)? Now, I may forget how much a critical hit strikes for, but I know it goes for max damage of weapon plus something... and it ends stances. Not bad. Seeking Blade? It strikes for over 16 more damage every 4 seconds (as I'll assume you've got more than 12 Swordsmanship), which is undeniably better than the 12.5 extra flurry gets you. Ah, you are getting weapon-specific now, I'm trying to stay away from that as this is a general guide. Saying "this skill might be better with swords" isn't really constructive to someone that uses axes, or hammers.

Anyhow, you would have to ask yourself this: is spending 5 energy [every 4 seconds] worth it for an extra 3 damage (every 4 seconds...) vs. 5 energy [every 5 seconds] for increased damage (over base) plus increased adrenaline? I think not. With the increased attack speed and adrenaline, you are able to spam adrenaline-based skills at a 44%ish rate faster than without Flurry. Therefore the 3 extra damage per 4 seconds is negated heavily vs. the spammability of adrenaline-based attacks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarot Ribos
I will make concessions on the adrenal boost Flurry gives you. But Seeking Blade can also do even more damage AND cause bleeding. Flurry has its uses, but only in certain builds, like heavy adrenaline-based ones or IW Mesmers. Otherwise, it may provide a benefit... but not as great as other skills do. Seeking blade is alright, but see above post. However, I will agree with you only if the fact is this: your build has NO adrenaline based attacks. Which is a very small percentage amongst the warrior population.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arredondo
Nice info id0l. I love reading useful stuff like this. Thanks arr, and I appreciate Tarot's contribution to this as well...even though it may be flawed a little.

twicky_kid

twicky_kid

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2005

Quite Vulgar [FUN]

24 Sep 2005 at 00:53 - 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarot Ribos
5 energy is being spent every 5 seconds for an extra half-attack. That doesn't sound very efficient.

On a primary warrior, who gets 2/3 of an energy per second, that only gets you 3.333333 energy per five seconds. Which means you're losing 1.666666667 energy. So you will run out. use a zealous sword or axe and you gain a net of 1 energy after end of flurry + your energy regen (which isn't that fast but it doesn't matter flurry pays for itself).

entropy

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2005

N/W

24 Sep 2005 at 04:00 - 11
you could use it but cause its pve and not pvp its fine but i would rather use cyclone axe

White Designs

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jul 2005

Illinois

None

24 Sep 2005 at 07:37 - 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by id0l
Ah, I'd like and explanation how increased damage, and increased adrenaline, without pitfalls is considered "bad."
Its bad since another skill is better than it in nearly every situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by id0l
Explain what you consider a "good warrior", please. Because as far as taking damage is concerned, that all depends on who the other team is targeting, and not your l33t w4rr10r sk1llz. And it's really easy to kill a warrior using Frenzy, an Air Spiker could probably kill you in about 2-3 seconds. Not to mention any other decent caster.
Its been posted many times that Warriors generally aren't targetted. A good Air Spike team, if they target you, will kill you whether or not you have Frenzy on. A single air spiker has no chance of killing you since if he tried to gank you 1on1 you'd get easy warning by the first hit and switch (or by the Surge icon).

Quote:
Originally Posted by id0l
And where did I mention in this guide that this was a strict PvP tutorial on Flurry? Sure, I MAY opt to use Frenzy in a PvP scenario, but it sure as hell would never be in my skill bar if I'm playing PvE. You don't need Frenzy or Flurry in PvE. It's easy, so why bother arguing about it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by id0l
Yet again more bias, opinion, and one-sidedness, without factual bases. Try to keep the criticism to some level of intelligence besides "This skill sucks, blah blah blah." I must ask you to re-read some of the important parts of my post: Its been beaten to death about how good or bad Tiger's Fury is. If you want to learn about it, read some of those gigantic threads. I don't want to explain it again.

id0l

id0l

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jul 2005

Austin, Texas, ya'll.

A/D

24 Sep 2005 at 12:43 - 13
White, all you are doing is thrusting your opinion on people - once AGAIN I must repeat myself when I say this thread isn't about "skill 'A' is better than skill 'B'," and besides, you have no facts at all to back yourself up - all you say is "this is bad, this sucks, another skill is better, why use this, this won't happen." Just because you think something sucks/is bad/etc. doesn't mean it really does. Either provide some evidence to your bias or stop slandering the skill just because you opt not to use it. Maybe it's not good for your specific build. But it works great with others.

If you have some form of constructive information to share, by all means do so. So you don't want to use it...good for you. I'm not trying to tell you to use it over something else. You are entitled to that decision.

White Designs

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jul 2005

Illinois

None

24 Sep 2005 at 14:59 - 14
Why shouldn't it be about Skill A vs. Skill B? They are both stances, both non-elite, both unlinked and can't be stacked. So use one or the other. And if one is so much better nearly always, the other one logically sucks.

I gave facts, specifically writing about the air ele thing and targetting. I don't know what you take that to be.

Venus

Venus

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Aug 2005

Boston, MA

Me/Mo

24 Sep 2005 at 15:14 - 15
I was looking for somthing like this, now I can put flurry back on my skill bar without any doubts.

id0l

id0l

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jul 2005

Austin, Texas, ya'll.

A/D

24 Sep 2005 at 16:30 - 16
Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread in a constructive way.

Tarot Ribos

Tarot Ribos

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jul 2005

Me/E

25 Sep 2005 at 02:58 - 17
Okay. So my math was slightly off... but the results seem to be the same. Flurry gets you an extra half-swing of damage, give or take a point for five energy. If you're running a decent Zealous mod or multiple adrenaline skills (as one skill alone does not merit the use of another), then Flurry is a decent choice. Or, as mentioned, in a IW mesmer build.

But when looking at sheer DPS, other skills can and usually are more useful. That's really what I was getting at with my post. Sorry if that didn't come across properly... that's what happens when one is tired. I just wish Flurry lasted longer... five seconds is really kind of pitiful. I'd even be happy with 8.

id0l

id0l

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jul 2005

Austin, Texas, ya'll.

A/D

25 Sep 2005 at 03:55 - 18
Oh, I agree with you. But the goodness of the skill (for me, anyway) isn't just an increase of damage over time, but the super-charge of adrenaline it gives. These two bonus's wrapped up in one skill definatly makes it worth it's place on my skillbar. I really only see any speed enhancing skill as worthwhile when you have 2 or more adrenal skills on your skillbar (as far as a warrior goes); or if you are an interrupt ranger or something similiar (IW Mesmer included). My 3 attack skills are adrenaline-based (and I hate Soothing Images). Of course, I myself would only run any speed-enhancing skill with either a zealous or max vampiric mod for your weapon, to get full benefit. And that's exactly what I do. My weapon of choice is my +14% damage in stance Zealous Chaos Axe of Fortitude. This gives me great damage under both Flurry and Frenzy. I love hitting adrenal spikes under Flurry and hitting for 150-200+ damage very, very quickly (~150 against level 24-28s, ~200+ vs. humans and level 20 creatures). Vigorous Spirit/Live Vicariously is also very sweet using a skill such as this (hp on hit). Though I prefer Vig. Spirit because it doesn't cost my any regen, which is a no-no for a Zealous weapon.

LifeInfusion

LifeInfusion

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: May 2005

in the midline

E/Mo

25 Sep 2005 at 17:54 - 19
Flurry + judge's insight/conjure ...

id0l

id0l

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jul 2005

Austin, Texas, ya'll.

A/D

30 Sep 2005 at 02:12 - 20
Edited. Skill not changed.

darkMishkin

darkMishkin

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2005

UK

Servants of Fortuna [SoF]

Mo/

06 Oct 2005 at 01:08 - 21
I'm in love with hammers (for no good reason other than they're cool) and this thread is just depressing me!
The slower speed of my hammer makes a zealous bonus less attractive sure, but now I find out that Srength ArmorPen Bonus is only applied to skills, the speed of Addrenaline build up has really become a factor for me... cause hammer skills are so expensive anyway. And without a shield I want to spend attribute points on Strength rather than tactics, maybe I should just give up and put some more points into secondary profession... so depressing...

Anyway I really need a spammable spell so despite liking Flurry alot its just too short for me.

Shadow Devil

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Aug 2005

none

08 Oct 2005 at 09:14 - 22
Flurry's greates strength is the lack of weaknesses.

Frenzy double damage penalty is underrated at times, probably because if you have a good monk, you'll be healed quickly. But never forget that EVERY type of damage will hit you double, so its like walking around with half of your HP. if you have empathy, spitefull spirit and/or anything like that on you, keep in mind that you'll probably will lose 50+ HP every second if you keep using frenzy and attack like crazy. Armour ignoring skills like necro shadow, monk holy and certain earth skill damage, will kill you very quickly (bashing a smiting monk in melee, or a Dark Aura sacrificing build necro will kill you almost instantly, and they will target you if it gets noticed you are using freny).

Tiger fury is a great skill, it does however restricts you in using a ranger secondary spending some atribute points in beast mastery. Because all your non-attack skills are recharging half the time, managing your health and conditions becomes difficult. Also, non-attack adrenal skills lose all adrenaline when TF is used. In organized team fights, you will mostly be restricted in IWAY teams, because of lack of doing anything ells but one-sided melee damage.

The downside of flurry is obvious: you can't keep it up constantly like frenzy because time it lasts and the recharge time is equal, creating a small pauze between the attacks. The reduced damage will perhaps not reduce the total damage done (it even increases it) but the energy upkeep and the fact that you can't stack stances, wont always make using it worth the minor damage and adrenal increase it come for it. if you're going to use it, you will have to use it in a build (team build or single character build) that makes use if the main effect: you hit more then normally. using zealous/vampiric upgrades is one of them, but also making use of necro curses like mark of pain orbarbs, or enchantments like strength of honor or cunjure frozt/lighting/flame (not judges insight, % damage increases the same ammount on normal attack rate). But if you never seem to get below 50% health or never use your secondary and have 16 points of weapon mastary and 13 in strength, you might want to think about switching to tigers fury or frenzy.

id0l

id0l

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jul 2005

Austin, Texas, ya'll.

A/D

08 Oct 2005 at 09:54 - 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow Devil
Actually, if you have a max zealous upgrade, you will get a 3 bonus every time you strike. With flurry, you are able to hit a max of 4 times, so +12 energy. (this is all according to my own memory, so I could be wrong)
Mmm...zealous gives you +1 energy on hit only. But don't let that fool ya into thinking it's crap (like 95% of players do). It's one of the best upgrades you can get. Common too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow Devil
Flurry's greates strength is the lack of weaknesses. Heh, I don't understand that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow Devil
Tiger fury is a great skill, it does however restricts you in using a ranger primary spending some atribute points in beast mastery. Because all your non-attack skills are recharging half the time, managing your health and conditions becomes difficult. In organized team fights, you will mostly be restricted in IWAY teams, because of lack of doing anything ells but one-sided melee damage. I think you meant ranger secondary? But yeah...TF wouldn't truly be ideal for a Warrior...or anything requiring you to use attack skills really (on a constant basis), because...well, you won't be able to use attack skills for 5 second durations at a time. Not good IMO. Plus, I don't like the idea in investing in a whole attribute line just for one skill.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow Devil
The downside of flurry is obvious: you can't keep it up constantly like frenzy because time it lasts and the recharge time is equal, creating a small pauze between the attacks. The reduced damage will perhaps not reduce the total damage done (it even increases it) but the energy upkeep and the fact that you can't stack stances, wont always make using it worth the minor damage and adrenal increase it come for it. The pause is virtually non-existant IF you have superior timing skills. Of course you can't always time it perfectly, so occasionally there is maybe a .1 second pause or so. I will have to respectfully disagree with you about the energy upkeep and 'minor damage increases,' as there are plenty of ways to even these things out. As mentioned, zealous will net you increased energy and a good weapon (+% > 50, +% in stance, +% enchant) that is customized will still yield great damage per-hit under Flurry. Myself, I use a 14% stance Chaos Axe with a zealous upgrade...and I'll tell ya, the ONLY time I run out of energy is in very hectic situations that require myself to be removing conditions constantly, or using healing breeze constantly (not very often at all).

Enough ranting...

I'll give you my personal example of why I use it:

Flurry to build up my Eviscerate/Executioners Strike/Penetrating Blow chain. Since I'm still getting more DOT than normal and increased adrenaline, I'm all for Flurry. Certain builds will most definatly differ. I definatly believe that it is intented for adrenaline-heavy builds...you can spike alot more often with 33% increased attack speed. And, even under Flurry with it's lessened damage, you still get the normal damage buffs from your attack skills (mine being +42 with Eviscerate at 16 axe, etc., etc.). Makes for an incredibly fast, hard hitting spike. =)

I also agree that Frenzy could be a better choice for PvP. It just always depends. Every skill in the game is so situational you just can't plan on what to use to maximum advantage - except in PvE, considering you know the area/enemies you will be fighting in/against well. Thus I use Flurry as my staple PvE skill.

IMO Frenzy in PvE is just dumb. PvP it is okay. I wouldn't hesitate to use Flurry in PvP, either, though...but I know alot of people would call me retarded for that. Oh well.

And yes I fully recommend a zealous upgrade for using Flurry...a vamp upgrade would be #2 in line to zealous (if say you don't use Flurry constantly in long battles, because energy would most likely become a problem).

Shadow Devil

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Aug 2005

none

08 Oct 2005 at 14:27 - 24
I was wrong about the zealous hammer haft. Because max vampiric hammer steals more then max sword/axe, I thought it would be the same with hammer. I still think it should!

What I meant with the 'lack of weaknesses' is extra added weaknesses. Like taking double damage or losing all non-attack skills. Its a skill with no real downside exept for the energy loss. If it wasn't for the energy loss you have to take in mind and that it uses a stance and skill slot, there would be no reason not to take it with you with almost every build.
But because it does, and the extra damage itself isn't enough reason to take it with you with every single no other stance using build.
I'm not saying that your whole energy upkeep rate will go down the drain if you plan on using flurry all the time, I'm just saying that you need energy that could be used for other skills in other builds (you can say that about every energy using skills) so if you plan to use a few other 10 energy using skills every 20 seconds, you might not want to spam an extra 5 energy using skill every 5 damage. Skills that cost to much energy in general is hardly every the case, since there are a lot of ways to manage energy.
I was trying to say that Flurry is a skill that must be used a certain way for it to be truely effective, so when you say that with zealous axe and adrenal skills that do damage independed of flurry reduced damage, you're agreeing with me, not respectfully disagreeing

BTW: I edited my post I corrected some of the mistakes you pointed out.

Nexx

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jun 2005

10 Oct 2005 at 22:31 - 25
Sorry. I didn't bother to read the entire post. These were my thoughts as I skimmed through it :

Should I use FLURRY as an efficent andrenaline builder for a warrior?

For 5 mana in 5 seconds, you get 5.69 strikes (with Flurry) versus 3.76 strikes. The skill will net about 2 more strikes and 9.8 points of additional damage (assuming we use 20 as base damage). Damage appears to be negligible unless we factor in criticals but even then I doubt we'll get much difference in total damage dealt. So...

Is 5 mana worth 2 additional andrenaline?

Gaining 2 additional andrenaline point for 5 mana is hardily considered efficient but I think we need to look at the bigger picture and consider the design of our character to have a better understanding of how well FLURRY will work with it. I don't know the mana recharge rate for 2 energy pipes but from experience, the bare limit is 5 energy every 5~6 seconds suggesting that we can only spam one skill. I also read that a zealous sword could be used to increase energy output but the problem I see is that we're assuming we're hitting our target AND our target is not moving. Furthermore, the low mana recharge rate caused by zealous is going to severely hamper our skill selection (especially if we're running a lot of energy based attacks) limiting us to mostly andrenaline based attacks.

So what does all this mean?

Flurry is not bad as many people have made it out to be. Like many skills, Flurry has its place and is very dependent on the build. With no damage drawback (like Frenzy) and no recharge delay (For Greater Justice), Flurry is a cheap spammable attack speed skill. Andrenaline based attack builds should work well with Flurry because those builds are not energy intensive and allows for constant Flurry up time. But at 5 energy per shot for 5 seconds, energy heavy warrior builds might opt to choose Frenzy or another skill. (Then again, why use flurry or any other andrenaline builders when you're running energy based attack skills?) Flurry may have a role though to build up early andrenaline. I used to run a vanilla sword build that ran flurry to build up artery, gash and slash while running savage/pure strike for the occasional energy attack(s). It was relatively easy to use the energy based skills once andrenaline was built up for artery, gash and slash.

id0l

id0l

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jul 2005

Austin, Texas, ya'll.

A/D

11 Oct 2005 at 20:23 - 26
Well, I would hope alot of people would bring a secondary weapon without a Zealous mod (as I do), for when they need regular energy regen. Same with vampiric mods...but I see, all too often, people only have their one weapon, with no secondary. Anet put in 4 slots for a reason.


You bring up valid points...as I have mentioned, Flurry is definatly meant for an adrenaline heavy build. Otherwise, I don't really think it would be worth the spot on the skillbar, as I've said. But with many Warrior attacks being adrenaline based, I see it is a good speed buff to bring vs. the competition. Keep in mind you dont always have to spam it, either.

I would also agree with you about it probably not being a good idea in a energy-dependant build. I could see it working, but not if you keep Flurry up constantly. That would be for us "adrenaline warriors."