Kindle Arrow modification...

With just about everyone and their mothers using Punishing shot Ranger builds with Kindle arrow, I've been trying to think of a good general way to counter them. Getting interrupted really isn't my problem. I can still get my spells off.

But, I think it is really stupid that if you dodge/block/evade their arrows, then I don't think kindle arrow should still hit. I would understand why ignite arrows might still hit, because it is splash damage. That is why ignite does less damage. But I think, that if you dodged the arrow, then kindle arrow should not still do the damage. Even if you are running around in the distance dodging their arrows, Kindle arrow still hits. It is very unbalanced if you ask me.

I built a Punishing/savage/distracting shot Kindle Arrow ranger and ran it in PvP and it is way too powerful. I am never one to ask for a nerf. I am the last person to really to so (this line I am sure will be quoted at some point below, LOL).

All I ask is that kindle arrow become 'dodgeable'. This would make those ranger builds at least have some sort of counter. I put Spirit Shackles on them, Spirit of Failure, blind, it don't stop them because it only costs about 4 energy to get those shots off. Blinded? Who cares! Kindle arrow will still get them!! Some of them even throw Conjure Flame on top of that, so basically they do 30+ damage each hit, regardless whether their arrows actually hit the target or not.

All I ask is that Kindle Arrow can actually miss sometimes. You can have all your other Ranger fun. I don't mind the interrupts or clean direct hits.

I am prepared for the Punishing Shot Fanboy flames...

umm....

Kindle Arrows doesn't do splash dmg... so if the arrow misses... u shouldn't be taking dmg...

Whether or not you should be taking the damage, the fact is that you do.

I could agree with this.
Ive been using Kindle for a long time, but if they put a stop to it, I wouldnt be upset.
Kindle and conjures do "seem" as if they should be evadable.

Ignite and Choking Gas are the only ones that I would say shoot trough evades and blinds, because they are AoEs.

I play a ranger and I agree with this. Kindle should not act as localized splash dmg. if you dodge the burning arrow, you should dodge the kindle effect.

Well it is good to see people in agreement with this. It just seems logical really. Thanks.

...hopefully Anet will see it that way

well, if kindle arrows hitting even though you dodged it doesnt make sense, then i think that if your blinded you should have a hard time casting spells affecting other people, because how do you know where to aim your spell if you cant see?

seriously, its so easy to dodge an arrow, by sidesteping, going behind a wall, or by skills, why do you want to make it even harder for us rangers to hit with an attack?

While I kinda agree on the spell thing, it can be summed up with this explaination. Crappy though it is, spells are magical, the magic aims them for you.

Spells aren't aimed...Do you see Elementalists aiming down the sights of their staff when they cast?

haha, OK, jokes aside. Do you really have a problem aiming with your ranger? Unless the enemy is running an enchantment/stance to dodge or I am blind, then I rarely miss due to an inaccurate shot or obstacle. Throw cripple on your target to slow them down if you find them running away. But to make kindle arrow not miss regardless of how far off your arrow actually was is pretty rediculess.

If you want the splash damage, trade out for Ignite Arrow.

yes, this is weird.
I wondered also about this...the only thing I could imagine, is that Kindled arrows 'explode' (skilldescription not accurate). So when blocking , it explodes in your blocking hands. or something like that..Likewise evading: explosion to close...

But I agree this feels somehow wrong. But please don't nerf my ranger

I think the main reason for it to be changed is so that Ignite Arrows would be come more useful. At the moment, there really isn't any reason to use Ignite Arrows (in PvP that is) over Kindle. I think if they made Kindle evadable, then Ignite might serve a better purpose.

Well Ignite arrows do damage to more then one target, where kinder will only hurt the person it hits. So Ignite does have a purpose, only thing is kinder arrows does more damage to a single target making it more ideal for damage dealing with focus fire.

Now while I agree if you block a kinder you shouldn't take full damage, but since the arrow explodes when you block is, I think you should take 1/3 of the damage it would have done?

I think that seems a bit more fair... you most you end up with is about 8 damage per shot or less.

but with conjure flame, it can reach 20 damage, for amn attack that should never have hit you...

Conjure Flame gives a damage bonus to any fire based WEAPON, not spells. So when a arrow is blocked or evaded conjure flame doesn't do anything at all, Kinder still hits however.

I seen this myself, conjure flame misses with the arrow, but Kinder hits with full damage, which as everyone has said shouldn't happen, since the arrow was blocked or evaded.

But like I said since its a flaming arrow it should do a minor amount of damage, maybe a 1/3 of what it could do.

Conjure flame doesn't make kinder more powerful, however they do go well together if you using a Flame based Bow.

I for example use a Fiery Bow +15% enchant damage, with 8 extra flame damage from Conjure and 20 extra from Kinder.

So I see 3 damages added together:

Normal Arrow Damage + Kinder + Conjure Flame

As you guess when its misses I get:

0 + kinder + 0

And when not enchanted with Conjure flame I get:

Damage + Kinder

Here is my reasoning why Kindle Arrow SHOULD be blockable.

***At the moment there is NO counter for it what so ever!!!!!!!!***

For a game that likes to have a counter for everything, I am very surprised. But Kindle Arrow is a preparation. Preparations can't be removed. Therefore they NEED to be dodgable in order for the game to have balance!!!

No need for CAPS LOCK you know, doeasn't make you point any more important.

Well what about if I fire Called Shot at you? Which cannot be blocked or evaded.

Also Hunter's Shot (Bleeding) and posion arrow can be blocked as well. Apply posion is a preparation that can be blocked, so your not 100% correct.

But I do see you point, so like I said if the damage you get by blocking fire arrows is greatly reduced to 5 damage or below I think it be fine.

clonmac I do agree with you, not disagreeing, I just think total blocking would make taking down warriors and their stances near impossible. Since Called shot is costly and has a recharge time making it a bit hard to make use of.

If you block a projectile that is on fire it's still going to hurt. Same thing with Kindle Arrows. Altough i don't think it should do extra damage if the attack is evaded.

Yes, if you block is does greatly reduced damage, if you evade it shouldn't do anything at all.

Shielding Hands IS a counter...or curse them with Spitefull Spirit
or interrupt the prep... 2 seconds is damn long. Use leech signet.. Cry of frustration... whatever non-spell interrupt works best for you.

its ok like it is, also i agree it seems not logical. I say : Keep it the way it is.

btw : there are other skills with no counter and some are way more scary than 20 damage... :
Blackout... Touch of Agony... Vampiric Touch...Shock..
Basicly all "touch"-Attack stuff (ignores most interrupts + Backfire + uberfast "activation").

Will you all nerv them ?

I can see how this would be logical, although people would trade for ignite so... doesnt make so much of a difference you'd just increase the spread damage. (personally prefer ignite anyways)

Kindle only has the ability to affect one target, in principle and according to its description, it shouldn't hit unless the arrow does... thats the point of there being a difference between ignite and kindle, or at least more of a noticable difference as it should be....
so.. yeh in all i agree

First of all, Called shot is an attack with a recharge time. So that can stopped with diversion or something of the like. Secondly, I wasn't talking about all preparations. I am talking about Kindle arrow only here. So when I said there is no counter, I meant there is nothing to stop kindle from hitting you, either by dodging it or by removing something from them like you can hexes. I am not saying Preparations should be removable. But Kindle arrow, like other arrow attacks, should be avoidable (except for choking gas and ignite, because they are splash damage). The skill does not say that the arrows explode on impact, so don't gimme that, 'if the arrow missed then the explosion got me'. That is what ignite is for.




Touch of Agony - Sacrifice health to use
Blackout - You also blackout your skills
Vampiric Touch - It is a spell and can be interrupted (read: dodged)
Shock - 10 second recharge time
Touch spells in general - forces you caster to "Touch" target

There is no way you can compare that stuff to Kindle Arrow abilities to do continuous damage with out being dodged. It isn't the fact that Kindle is so deadly, but it is the fact that it can't be Dodged AND it is a preparation (so it can't be removed) and it can be combined with other things like attack skills (quickshot, savage shot, punishing, etc).

None of those spells you listed there have anywhere near the capabilities that Kindle does.

With all that said, I don't mean to sound like I am saying Rangers are way too powerful and I want them nerfed now!! What I am saying is that it just seems like there are very few options to counter something that has the potential to be way too strong in the right hands. I've been owning rangers that use the Punishing Shot build in arena with my Mesmer, so I don't mind too much. It is just the HoH/GvG side of things that even an unskilled group of rangers can get together and own another team. Where you may have 5 rangers all shooting kindle arrow at someone. 20 damage hitting from 5 rangers each shooting more than an arrow a second = a lot of damage that can NOT be avoided. When you start competing (and I am not saying 'you' as in you don't) in the top 600 guild groups, and you see one of these ranger teams, you can't help but think that you know the only reason they are there is because they are using a cheap build and can't come up with something creative. And yes there are protection spells that can help prevent the damage, but when you can also combine interrupts with kindle, that is when things get rather excessive.

...I guess I am just angry that Rangers are getting all the FotM builds lately and my Necro's are left out in the cold ;( haha

Kindle Arrow does have a counter - Distracting Shot or the like when they're activating it. And Vampiric Touch isn't a spell.

I still agree with you that the kindle should only hit if the arrow hits, though. Kindle is strong enough as a damage adder without also being a defense-trumper as well.

All my mesmers now carry mantra of flame simply because of this.

Distortion won't work, sidestepping won't work, so I figure my best bet is to reduce the inevitable damage as much as I can

Some friends and I noticed this Kindle glitch hitting us when using Distortion a few months ago and reported it to Arena.net back then. So far, they obviously haven't done anything about it.

Thats a strange argument... like :
When you have 5 eles using Obsidian Flame.. doiing damage that cant be avoided...

or

When you have 5 W/Mesmer using Blackout in row.. "disabling skills" that CAN NOT be avoided. just get nearby (any warrior has sprint anyway) .. no block , no evade , no nothing, no help but the hope your monk can heal you.


or or or... [any similar 5:1 situations]

all this situations have one common thing : If noone else helps you -> you are dead.

i agree... this builds are as dumb as smiterbuilds and are way too easy to play compared to the power they have.

Just for the variety of skills i agree with you. Having 2 MORE different preps could be fine. Most rangers choose kindle over ignite this days and thats boring.

So very very true.

Which is why I love this game so much

LoL. I find there is a fairly easy way to counter this.

Say your on a map with stairs like Dark Chambers, Broken Tower etc. If a Ranger team starts the spike run to the middle of the stairs. NOTHING hits you there lol. Also another good thing to try is actually using the walls to hide behind. Maps like Underworld, Scarred Earth etc are particuarly annoying for Rangers because of the many walls there are.

I agree with you this if the attack is blocked how can you still be hit from the fire damage? Taking something like Mantra of Fire is a waste of a skill IMO just for this so something should be done.

Also I play a Prot Monk, and any other good Prot Monk knows that the recharge time on Shielding Hands is quite long compared to other spells. Therefore it is not spammable so quickly changing targets bugger me up.

IMO Ranger teams don't really get that far because there is just no diversity. So what 5 Rangers all attack the same target, but are they really THAT hard to escape from? Me thinks not.