Incoming skill "balance"...I'm afraid for us PvE only players - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

Carinae

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jun 2005

Inside

Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]

28 Sep 2005 at 17:10 - 41

Quote:

Originally Posted by kawaii_bat

You're talking about shadow strike & vamp gaze not *only* Dark pact.

I don't agree with a skill that causes you to lose 1/10+ your health and deals maximum 40 damage. Sure it passes armor, sure you can do it often...But it's just no practical in my eyes.

Dark Pact does 51+ damage at 18 Blood. Minor point.

Two builds use DP: Blood Smiters and Dark Aura builds.

For Blood Smiters, it's meant to fill in the gaps so there is something to cast when VG and SS are recharging. The 10% sacrifice amounts to 45 health (for me). Even if you have AtB on, the sacrifice is just 68 health. VG alone steals 63 health back, so the sacrifice is irrelevant.

For Dark Aura builds, the sacrifice is even less of an issue since they typically use AotL.

If the Devs want to make an unused skill more useful, lower the recharge on Mark of Subversion to 10-15 seconds.

Sanji

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2005

Mo/

28 Sep 2005 at 17:14 - 42

Quote:

Originally Posted by wsmcasey

If only it were true. Seems kinda 2 faced to say "we dont want to punish players for being inventive", yet they do it anyways. lmfao

There's a difference between being inventive and a skill/build that's just so blatantly effective that a large number of people start abusing the living crap out of it.

Things need to be rebalanced when infamous skills/net builds start degrading the game environment. Inventiveness and diversity are stiffled when everyone is doing the same freaking thing.

MSecorsky

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2005

So Cal

The Sinister Vanguard

Me/

28 Sep 2005 at 17:54 - 43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akathrielah

And the deal with interrupts is the fact that Punishing Shot is basically Power Shot that can interrupt and the fact that all 3 (punishing, savage, and distracting) can be chained in less than a second. Combine this with kindle and you have a potent combo. Use this in a chain RIGHT after you fired dual shot and you've got yourself a rather stupid powerful combo.

And the fact that this can be countered is moot, all damage can be countered, and all forms of direct damage is more or less "easy" to counter (warrior, ranger, elementalist, blood necromancer). Either is an evasion/dodge skill/enchantment (Aegis) or a damage capper (prot spirit) or the combination of the two.

Of course, punishing is an elite, and should be. The other interrupts you get the pleasure of a 10 sec recharge, so after a quick thwip thwip thwip there's a dramatic delay in interrupting abilities. Sure, you get the quick spurt, then you wait...

Besides, if you flip out the interrupts as fast as you can, you will be doing it faster than spell casters cast, therefore not interrupting squat. That negates the damage bonus for savage, and distracting gives you that mighty 1-13...

User Name

Banned

Join Date: Sep 2005

28 Sep 2005 at 18:03 - 44

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSecorsky

Of course, punishing is an elite, and should be. The other interrupts you get the pleasure of a 10 sec recharge, so after a quick thwip thwip thwip there's a dramatic delay in interrupting abilities. Sure, you get the quick spurt, then you wait...

Besides, if you flip out the interrupts as fast as you can, you will be doing it faster than spell casters cast, therefore not interrupting squat. That negates the damage bonus for savage, and distracting gives you that mighty 1-13...

I think you miss the point. Add the bonus from Conjure Flame, Kindle Arrows, a Vamp Bow, Favorible Winds, and Winnowing and your ranger is putting out an impressive amount of damage in under 2 seconds. Get 2 rangers on a single target and that target can do nothing but die. The imbalance isn't in the fact that the interrupts aren't interupting if you fire them off that quickly(nobody is using the build to interrupt anyway)...The inbalance is that there's no reason to use damage skills when interrupt skills(using this build) deal more damage in a shorter amount of time.

mm00re

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2005

In a van down by the river :)

After Dark Club [REAL]

W/Mo

28 Sep 2005 at 18:06 - 45

are we playing nerf football again?

Screw it, take away all spells, all interrupts, all stances, make everyone's weapons a pea shooter and your shield is a jelly donut and you would still have people bitching about what flavor the jelly donut was.

Everyone whining "about oh this skill is just too powerful" well learn a way around it, life won't come to you on a silver platter, if a build is not working hit the delete button and try out a new one until it does.

Learn to adapt and overcome it or just make every skill do exactly the same amount of damage or healing that way there should be no one able to complain that "well this person used this skill and it had +/- 1 more hp than mine"

GAWD FORBID someone figure out a build that worked for them and you have the little kid down the street that gets mad, grabs his ball and runs home to mommy.

As for people that solo, why do YOU care. If I can go into an area that is harder and survive on my own, why do you care about what I do?

Worry about yourself and leave me alone. If I can do this, I deserve every drop without having to share it with 7 other people.

If you want to drive people away from this game then just keep on nerfing things, I ENJOY soloing, it means I only have to worry about healing 1 person, ME.

Sanji

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2005

Mo/

28 Sep 2005 at 18:09 - 46

Or you can learn to adapt to balance changes, mm00re. It'd drive even more people away from the game if Anet ignored balance problems than pissing off people who can't be arsed to try out different builds or skills.

MSecorsky

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2005

So Cal

The Sinister Vanguard

Me/

28 Sep 2005 at 18:11 - 47

Quote:

Originally Posted by User Name

I think you miss the point. Add the bonus from Conjure Flame, Kindle Arrows, a Vamp Bow, Favorible Winds, and Winnowing and your ranger is putting out an impressive amount of damage in under 2 seconds.

How many skill slots are you giving rangers credit for having anyhow?

User Name

Banned

Join Date: Sep 2005

28 Sep 2005 at 18:12 - 48

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSecorsky

How many skill slots are you giving rangers credit for having anyhow?

How often do you fight in tombs alone?

mm00re

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2005

In a van down by the river :)

After Dark Club [REAL]

W/Mo

28 Sep 2005 at 18:13 - 49

If all of these problems are coming from the pvp area then change that part and leave pve alone.

Sanji

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2005

Mo/

28 Sep 2005 at 18:14 - 50

It's highly unlikely that would happen. PvP and PvE are not intended to be exclusive.

MSecorsky

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2005

So Cal

The Sinister Vanguard

Me/

28 Sep 2005 at 18:17 - 51

Quote:

Originally Posted by User Name

How often do you fight in tombs alone?

There is that.

However, with the quick spikes come considerable down time, considering recharges as well as having to recast kindle, et.al. If you spread the damage out over more than just the 2 second thwipping, ...

AeroLion

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2005

28 Sep 2005 at 18:19 - 52

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSecorsky

Of course, punishing is an elite, and should be. The other interrupts you get the pleasure of a 10 sec recharge, so after a quick thwip thwip thwip there's a dramatic delay in interrupting abilities. Sure, you get the quick spurt, then you wait...

Besides, if you flip out the interrupts as fast as you can, you will be doing it faster than spell casters cast, therefore not interrupting squat. That negates the damage bonus for savage, and distracting gives you that mighty 1-13...

You really need to play the build and see how it works before you say something. Savage has a recharge time of 5s. Distracting has the recharge of 10s. Punishing is 8s. Add in Serpents Quickness to decrease recharge and Kindle for damage, Favourable Winds as well if you'd like, and you have a very damaging, very fast build. Have a friend or 3 run the same build but with a slightly different skillset that synergize with yours, like adding Winnowing, and it's gg.

User Name

Banned

Join Date: Sep 2005

28 Sep 2005 at 18:20 - 53

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSecorsky

There is that.

However, with the quick spikes come considerable down time, considering recharges as well as having to recast kindle, et.al. If you spread the damage out over more than just the 2 second thwipping, ...

Energizing Winds + Quickening Zephyr solves your recharge problems..short of that there is always Serpents Quickness

mm00re

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2005

In a van down by the river :)

After Dark Club [REAL]

W/Mo

28 Sep 2005 at 18:22 - 54

I don't ever hear of a stone summit heretic complaining, or the aatxes or any other of the creatures.

I have adapted, several times at that it is just frustrating when everytime there is a call for nerfs from the pvp side it always has to flow over to pve.

Don't make me call out the flying monkeys, it will not be a pretty sight

Saidin

Elite Guru

Join Date: Jan 2005

Toronto

28 Sep 2005 at 18:23 - 55

One thing to remember guys, this is a game of counters no matter where you play. PvE may be a challenge in certain areas, but remember the monsters are using the same skills that are available to you. Some PvE missions can almost be made easier knowing what your getting into. Its like going up against a team in GvG when you know their build.

Most people in PvE get comfortable with the same 8 skills. But the trick is to be constantly changing your build to counter whatever types of monsters your expecting.

If the game is balanced for PvP then PvE monster skill balance will come naturally. Its just a matter of time for the public to figure out the proper builds to beat each area.

John Waffletord

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jul 2005

Baltimore, MD, USA

28 Sep 2005 at 18:38 - 56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sentao Nugra

skill fixes i forsee:

savage shot is slowed down, along with other ranger interrupts

What exactly would you interupt if it was slowed down?

Quote:

Originally Posted by User Name

Add the bonus from Conjure Flame, Kindle Arrows, a Vamp Bow, Favorible Winds, and Winnowing and your ranger is putting out an impressive amount of damage in under 2 seconds. Get 2 rangers on a single target and that target can do nothing but die.

You cant use conjure flame with a vamp bow. You have to use a fire weapon.

Things will be balanced, which is good, balance is always good. This game is supposed to be about skill, not how many hours you've tested and found out which skills work well together make an overpowering combo. I salute those who ACTUALLY came up with these combo's, because it does show creativity. As for the people complaining because they cant use the skills that someone posted on here, or that kicked their ass once in tombs, I have no sympathy for them. I dont blame them for using them, but its like getting free cable, you know its not going to last forever.

IxChel

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Apr 2005

http://sof-guild.com/

Servants of Fortuna

Mo/R

28 Sep 2005 at 19:18 - 57

Quote:

Prior to the October 1 ladder reset, we will be updating Guild Wars with a comprehensive set of skill balance changes to refresh the competitive landscape.

I hope this will include:
- buffed elementalist stuff, including swirling aura
- massivly nerfed ether renewal
- a bow-attack-refire-delay "after cast" to Ranger interrupts
- buffed enchantment / hex removal
- buffed memser interrupts (to match Ranger interrupts) and ether feast
- slight nerf to the smiting line, esp balthazar's aura
- buff to Holy Wrath, move Sourage Healing to Necro Curses line
- Fragility should not trigger if a condition is removed
- Make Protective Spirt/Bond's 5/10% of max health apply to unadjusted health (before runes and before buffs like symbosis).

Arena fixes:
- armour for Ascelon arena is max 30
- armour for Yak's arena is max (what ever you can get at Yak's)
- no elite skills in Yak's or Ascelon arenas
- for every minute past 10, a lvl 20 lion gets released into the arenas to help "speed" things up -- just like they did in Rome

mm00re

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2005

In a van down by the river :)

After Dark Club [REAL]

W/Mo

28 Sep 2005 at 19:31 - 58

Quote:

Originally Posted by IxChel

I hope this will include:
- for every minute past 10, a lvl 20 lion gets released into the arenas to help "speed" things up -- just like they did in Rome

HA! nah realease a few aatxes and heretics to liven things up!

Racthoh

Did I hear 7 heroes?

Join Date: May 2005

Scars Meadows [SMS], Guild Leader (Not Recruiting)

28 Sep 2005 at 19:44 - 59

Quote:

Originally Posted by IxChel

- for every minute past 10, a lvl 20 lion gets released into the arenas to help "speed" things up -- just like they did in Rome

Augh that won't be any good, not when every W/Mo is built to tank.

Sanji

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2005

Mo/

28 Sep 2005 at 19:49 - 60

I say that after 10 minutes that it's considered a tie and both teams get killed.

With a nice "You guys should rethink your crappy builds." at the count down until they get ejected.

Phrozenflame

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Aug 2005

28 Sep 2005 at 19:50 - 61

I really hope Water eles see some light..its such an interesting line.

Things which need adjustments:
- Smite Builds.
- Some sort for IWAY
- Ranger Spike + Interrupts.

I do not agree when ANet says it doesnt punish ppl for inventing. Thing is Majority of the people who are using the builds never probably even came close to that build, they just jump on the band wagon. So they are not inventing anything. That is the reason why I disagree. And they are also the reason why Skills are nerfed. If the inventor does not wants to punished, he/she is under no obligation to come and post his build here.

IxChel

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Apr 2005

http://sof-guild.com/

Servants of Fortuna

Mo/R

28 Sep 2005 at 19:52 - 62

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

Augh that won't be any good, not when every W/Mo is built to tank.

Who says that the lion's cannot also have mending! I can just picture a smiting tiger /w big teeth that cause bleeding, balthazar's aura, punishing shot, fragility, and poisoning claws.

mm00re

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2005

In a van down by the river :)

After Dark Club [REAL]

W/Mo

28 Sep 2005 at 19:55 - 63

Quote:

Originally Posted by IxChel

Who says that the lion's cannot also have mending! I can just picture a smiting tiger /w big teeth that cause bleeding, balthazar's aura, punishing shot, fragility, and poisoning claws.

mmmm can my ranger have charm animal skill for that one

IxChel

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Apr 2005

http://sof-guild.com/

Servants of Fortuna

Mo/R

28 Sep 2005 at 19:58 - 64

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sanji

I say that after 10 minutes that it's considered a tie and both teams get killed.

This is the best suggestion for the team arena that I've ever heard. Who says there needs to be a winner -- fabulous. The running team gets punished for not having any attack skills; and the killing team w/o snares gets punished for not bringing hamstring, etc. Super suggestion.

User Name

Banned

Join Date: Sep 2005

28 Sep 2005 at 20:02 - 65

Quote:

Originally Posted by mm00re

mmmm can my ranger have charm animal skill for that one

Otyugs Cry ftw!

KainShadow

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2005

Legacy of Abyss

E/

28 Sep 2005 at 20:18 - 66

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Waffletord

You cant use conjure flame with a vamp bow. You have to use a fire weapon.

Yes you can, simply put on Kindle Arrow...it convert the damage into fire dmg

User Name

Banned

Join Date: Sep 2005

28 Sep 2005 at 20:19 - 67

Quote:

Originally Posted by KainShadow

Yes you can, simply put on Kindle Arrow...it convert the damage into fire dmg

I wasn't gonna say anything...I was just gonna let him continue believing conjure flame + vamp doesn't work

Oblivion Final

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Sep 2005

Somewhere crappy

Chicken Fkers Incorporated

28 Sep 2005 at 20:33 - 68

Quote:

IxChel->>> Make Protective Spirt/Bond's 5/10% of max health apply to unadjusted health (before runes and before buffs like symbosis).

Everything else you said in your post was great. This is the only thing that stuck out in my head. By doing this, you are making a Protect monks job a lot harder than it already is. And yes, I know they have lots of other spells that work for protecting. But, if my health is 510 out of 510, and you put this NEW Protect Spirit on me, I'm still gonna take 51 dmg. Better that you just don't put it on me at all. If ANet did something remotely similar to what you just suggested, it would render those spells totally worthless

And don't think we dont know you said that just so 55 monks will stop using it. Don't be hatin.

IxChel

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Apr 2005

http://sof-guild.com/

Servants of Fortuna

Mo/R

28 Sep 2005 at 21:11 - 69

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oblivion Final

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ix Chel

Make Protective Spirt/Bond's 5/10% of max health apply to unadjusted health (before runes and before buffs like symbosis).

Everything else you said in your post was great. This is the only thing that stuck out in my head. By doing this, you are making a Protect monks job a lot harder than it already is. And yes, I know they have lots of other spells that work for protecting. But, if my health is 510 out of 510, and you put this NEW Protect Spirit on me, I'm still gonna take 51 dmg.

I play a protection monk frequently in Underworld, Fissure, and lots of other places. Limiting damage to 51 is a huge accomplishment in those places -- well worth the 10en. To get a base 510 health don't you have to be level 21? (Base health for a level 20 is 480, hence 48 max hps.) I'm making this suggestion since I often use Symbosis with lots of long-lived enchatments, somtimes including Vital Blessing. In this case, protective spirit should be more like 5% of current max health.

Quote:

Better that you just don't put it on me at all. If ANet did something remotely similar to what you just suggested, it would render those spells totally worthless

Well, Protective Spirt could be reduced to 7% of max health to compensate if the average "current" health is much lower due to 1-2 superior runes. It's not 55-hating, it is that skills like Endure Pain, Defy Pain, Symbosis, Vital Blessing, and Demonic Flesh should all get a serious bonus from this skill; instead, they are penalized.

wsmcasey

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jul 2005

Right behind you.

HeRo

W/Rt

28 Sep 2005 at 21:30 - 70

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sanji

There's a difference between being inventive and a skill/build that's just so blatantly effective that a large number of people start abusing the living crap out of it.

Things need to be rebalanced when infamous skills/net builds start degrading the game environment. Inventiveness and diversity are stiffled when everyone is doing the same freaking thing.

Well, A-nets spin on it was that they were balancing PvP, however alot of the changed affected PvE in the process. I realize that that this game was designed around PvP, but I'm tired of being a second class citizen because I mostly play PvE. I bet over half the fan base is made up of PvE players and A-net will eventually have to accept that and start catering to us as well. PvP doesn't have enough content to hold players to this game long term. A few new PvP maps would have been nice.

Phades

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2005

28 Sep 2005 at 21:58 - 71

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

If the Devs want to make an unused skill more useful, lower the recharge on Mark of Subversion to 10-15 seconds.

Move the skill to the curse line and it would probably see a bit more use.

Arathorn5000

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Aug 2005

Xen of Onslaught Ladder [XoO]

28 Sep 2005 at 22:03 - 72

Quote:

Originally Posted by wsmcasey

Well, A-nets spin on it was that they were balancing PvP, however alot of the changed affected PvE in the process. I realize that that this game was designed around PvP, but I'm tired of being a second class citizen because I mostly play PvE. I bet over half the fan base is made up of PvE players and A-net will eventually have to accept that and start catering to us as well. PvP doesn't have enough content to hold players to this game long term. A few new PvP maps would have been nice.

Yeah, you're entirely a second class citizen.....wait, don't you remember the last major update?

Mumblyfish

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Feb 2005

Blighty

Kansas City Hotsteppers [KCHS]

28 Sep 2005 at 22:04 - 73

Quote:

Originally Posted by wsmcasey

I'm tired of being a second class citizen because I mostly play PvE. I bet over half the fan base is made up of PvE players and A-net will eventually have to accept that and start catering to us as well.

You feel like a second-class citizen? You believe ANet simply doesn't care about you? You're not in the crowd that hasn't recieved any new maps in almost a year. You're not in the crowd that's had their content diminish through the development process.

Shut up and eat your Sorrow's Furnace.

Sanji

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2005

Mo/

28 Sep 2005 at 22:04 - 74

If you want to mostly play PvE, find another game that specializes in it. Guild Wars is a hybrid, so not the best choice for polarized interests. There's going to be a compromise somewhere. You can either embrace the hybrid nature or shrug it off. But if you play Guild Wars in spite of it being a hybrid, you're going to end up disappointed.

You are not going to find first class PvE treatment in this game. Balance changes are going to happen, sometimes without clear PvE reasons. If you want a static environment, an Online Game with PvP is not where you're going to find it.

If you want the never ending content/levels of an MMORPG, you're not going to find it in a 50 dollar game without a monthly fee. Perhaps you need to reevulate your sense of entitlement and what you're actually entitled to in a video game.

Numa Pompilius

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: May 2005

At an Insit.. Intis... a house.

Live Forever Or Die Trying [GLHF]

W/Me

28 Sep 2005 at 22:08 - 75

Above all, PvE gaming hasn't been nerfed. Solo farming has been nerfed. Solo farming isn't PvE gaming.
The whole premise of this thread is bunk.

wsmcasey

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jul 2005

Right behind you.

HeRo

W/Rt

28 Sep 2005 at 22:11 - 76

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arathorn5000

Yeah, you're entirely a second class citizen.....wait, don't you remember the last major update?

The last major update has some nice stuff don't get me wrong, but it was littered with skill changes that were geared towards fixing balance in PvP. Alot of those skill changes affected me in PvE across 3 of my characters. I know I'm not the only PvE'r that feels like they got the shaft in the last update. I've spoken with many others that play mostly PvE that feel the same way.

Aniewiel

Smite Mistress

Join Date: Jun 2005

The Land of AZ, USA

Rt/E

28 Sep 2005 at 22:11 - 77

Pure speculation does no good as there are no available FACTS. This thread is closed until after the proposed changes are in place and the discussion can continue with factual information.

/closed