New build idea I haven't tested yet, but have been fleshing out and would like some feedback.
R/N
Wilderness - 12+1+3=16
Expertise - 7+3=10
Blood - 8
Marksmanship - 8+1
Bow grip of enchanting
Blood is Power {Elite} - Enchantment Spell 5en
Sacrifice 33% maximum health. For the next 10 seconds, target other ally gains energy regeneration of 3-5.
Troll Unguent - Skill 5en
For 10 seconds, you gain health regeneration +3-9.
Healing Spring - Trap 10en
For 10 seconds, all allies in the area are healed for 15-51 Health every 2 seconds. This action is easily interrupted.
Dryder's Defenses - Stance 5en
For 5-10 seconds, you gain 75% chance to evade attacks and 34-55 armor against Elemental damage.
The basic idea is to have two team members be dedicated batteries. The way the build is mapped out, it is possible for just the two of them to keep the entire team BiPped for the entire fight. Now, they won't be doing much else, but at 8 blood, that's +5 energy regen to everyone else on the team, which if used properly can outweight the loss of two people.
Because of the bowgrip of enchanting, bip lasts 11 seconds. So we need to run in 11 second cycles where Bip is cast on 4 people. With two superior runes and a superior vigor rune, your health is ~375, meaning 4 bips is 500 health lost and 20 energy. Troll unguent at wilderness 16 will net you 200 health over 10 seconds, and healing spring can get 300 health to both rangers if they stand next to each other. Thus, at every 11 second cycle, they can bip 4 times, troll unguent once, and take turns doing the healing spring to break even on health and spend 4*5+5+10(60%)/2 = 28 energy.
Since they themselves are bipped, they will be regenning 8 pips, which is 29
energy over that same 11 second cycle. The little bit of excess can cover occasional dryder's defense if they get attacked.
It was quite fortuitous that all the numbers worked out, you have just enough att points to get blood to having a +5 bip, wilderness high enough to mitigate the health, expertise enough to cut the healing spring down to 6, and marksmanship just high enough to be able to help somewhat with the bow. With the two superior runes, your health is exactly where it needs to be to balance the sacrifice properly.
Anybody think this can work?
Dedicated battery build
MuKen
rii
Dont bother healing yourself. Get a N/x, rune it to +7, then just spam it on whoever and stay out of harms way. The 33% becomes easily steamrollerable over when you have three monks with 10pips. In fact, boon can run and youll still have 10pips. So, a simple booned rof and your back to full health. Considering this set up can chain boon heal other (about 250hp every 3 seconds), thats not much.
Usual side line is taking advantage of really high blood, and buffing warriors with oop and dark fury, and then maybe /mo and some smiting (ji/smite hex in particular).
Usual side line is taking advantage of really high blood, and buffing warriors with oop and dark fury, and then maybe /mo and some smiting (ji/smite hex in particular).
MuKen
The idea was to be able to bip the whole team, not just a couple other people. In other words, you'll be casting BiP every 2-3 seconds, which means being as squishy as a N/x is extremely risky, that's the primary reason I wanted them to be R/N, if not even W/x if that were possible. Also, with that much sacrificing going on in a regular cycle, it is necessary to have extremely efficient heals over the long term. These two rangers are getting 200 hp for 5 en in troll unguent, or 40/1 ratio, which is better than even a boon monk, and 600 hp for 6 en in healing spring which is a 100/1 ratio.
They will still be needing the monks to handle excess damage done to them by opponents, this is just to handle their own sacrifices.
They will still be needing the monks to handle excess damage done to them by opponents, this is just to handle their own sacrifices.
AtomicMew
You cant get +7... Why do people keep saying this without testing it out?
MuKen
+7? I didn't say anything about +7 did I?
EDIT: ah, nm, didn't realize you weren't talking to me
EDIT: ah, nm, didn't realize you weren't talking to me
Sniper22
Umm +6 is good enough can't have over +10 energy regen.
But why have 2 people with BiP, 1 is enough. But imo in regular pve (like sorrows furnace) minions are much better. They take most of the hits and do a lot of damage. Sure its alright to bring BiP for an occasional energy regen, but 2 is really unnessacary. Btw i think the bow grip of enchanting only works for enchantments on YOU.
But why have 2 people with BiP, 1 is enough. But imo in regular pve (like sorrows furnace) minions are much better. They take most of the hits and do a lot of damage. Sure its alright to bring BiP for an occasional energy regen, but 2 is really unnessacary. Btw i think the bow grip of enchanting only works for enchantments on YOU.
MuKen
Just the benefit of having everyone else on the team be bipped. There are many builds would be more than twice as effective if constantly bipped, in pve OR pvp. Thus, having 2 people inactive for the benefit of doubling the output of the other 6 is certainly worthwhile...
This build is about maximising the team output, not the output of the individual.
I never heard about the bow grip only working on you, but it's not a big deal, you can still do the same thing and just have people be bipped most of the time. Or you can do it in 10 second intervals anyway, and still sustain it for a fairly long while.
This build is about maximising the team output, not the output of the individual.
I never heard about the bow grip only working on you, but it's not a big deal, you can still do the same thing and just have people be bipped most of the time. Or you can do it in 10 second intervals anyway, and still sustain it for a fairly long while.
Sniper22
still even if u had lots of energy u would still have to deal with skill recharge times,i know the idea is to keep everyone biped but i hate it for two reasons (dedicating yourself to BiP is really boring) and two, (You will be lacking something no matter how much energy you need, 2 eles are more affective than 1 ele with BiP)
neoflame
Items of Enchanting work on all enchantments you cast, IIRC.
MuKen
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sniper22
still even if u had lots of energy u would still have to deal with skill recharge times,i know the idea is to keep everyone biped but i hate it for two reasons (dedicating yourself to BiP is really boring) and two, (You will be lacking something no matter how much energy you need, 2 eles are more affective than 1 ele with BiP)
The boredom of BiP I can see being a problem for some, but it's not hard to devise builds that can benefit well from permanent bip. It doesn't have to be 2-to-1, since it affects 6 players. If even each had a 33% benefit, and I'm sure any build regardless of whether or not it is designed to work with that much energy can get this much benefit, that would already pay for the two guys not doing things. Design a build to work with the improvement, and you are easily paying it off.
For example, a boon monk with Bip is indeed putting out more healing than two normal monks. And you can even do some things that are completely not doable without the permanent bip, rather than simple improvements on what was already there. For example it is feasible to make a thunderclap ele that can do 100% sustainable knocklock.
For example, a boon monk with Bip is indeed putting out more healing than two normal monks. And you can even do some things that are completely not doable without the permanent bip, rather than simple improvements on what was already there. For example it is feasible to make a thunderclap ele that can do 100% sustainable knocklock.
Katamari
This is the dedicated BiP battery build that I made which I regularly take into FoW. I can constantly keep BiP on 3-4 targets for the duration of a fight. If I have 5-7 targets to BiP, then I usually alternate between BiP'ing 2-3 monks, then BiP'ing everyone during the next round of BiP's 12 seconds later.
Attributes
15 Blood Magic [11+3+1]
12 Soul Reaping [9+3]
3 Death Magic [0+3]
3 Curses [0+3]
8 Healing Prayers
8 Protection Prayers
Gear
Complete Scar set of armor (Superior rune in each one except for Vigor)
Regular set of armor (In case something goes wrong)
Sword/Axe with 20% enchant grip (I use the Denravi Sword +20%)
-50 hp focus item (Citites of Ascalon Quest)
Regular focus item
Skills
Blood is Power {E}
Blood Renewal
Vigorous Spirit
Protective Spirit
Mend Ailment
Protective Bond
Rebirth
[Flex Slot] - I usually carry Life Siphon or Well of Blood
How it Works
Set up Protective Bond on yourself. Before your party engages, mask Prot Bond with Vigorous Spirit, then activate Blood Renewal. Proceed to BiP you're intended targets, making sure that you are not focused by any enemy. Renew Blood Renewal and spam BiP as necessary.
Using this build, I've managed to keep a party of two monks and three to four casters steamrolling through FoW. The problem is when they aren't efficient at killing things since a complete round of BiP will cost about 30-45 energy so you NEED to have something die in order to keep the BiP spam going. People liked this so much that they've even brought Mending just for me to help mask my Prot Bond and allow me to spam BiP without using Blood Renewal every 12 seconds.
Edit: You can get BiP to +7, but you'd have to use Awaken the Blood to reach that, so it's not a reasonable option. Also, with this, I'm casting 3-5 BiP's within a 5 second time-frame and end up back at a full 55 health less than a second later, so it's easy to cover multiple people as long as you have the energy.
Attributes
15 Blood Magic [11+3+1]
12 Soul Reaping [9+3]
3 Death Magic [0+3]
3 Curses [0+3]
8 Healing Prayers
8 Protection Prayers
Gear
Complete Scar set of armor (Superior rune in each one except for Vigor)
Regular set of armor (In case something goes wrong)
Sword/Axe with 20% enchant grip (I use the Denravi Sword +20%)
-50 hp focus item (Citites of Ascalon Quest)
Regular focus item
Skills
Blood is Power {E}
Blood Renewal
Vigorous Spirit
Protective Spirit
Mend Ailment
Protective Bond
Rebirth
[Flex Slot] - I usually carry Life Siphon or Well of Blood
How it Works
Set up Protective Bond on yourself. Before your party engages, mask Prot Bond with Vigorous Spirit, then activate Blood Renewal. Proceed to BiP you're intended targets, making sure that you are not focused by any enemy. Renew Blood Renewal and spam BiP as necessary.
Using this build, I've managed to keep a party of two monks and three to four casters steamrolling through FoW. The problem is when they aren't efficient at killing things since a complete round of BiP will cost about 30-45 energy so you NEED to have something die in order to keep the BiP spam going. People liked this so much that they've even brought Mending just for me to help mask my Prot Bond and allow me to spam BiP without using Blood Renewal every 12 seconds.
Edit: You can get BiP to +7, but you'd have to use Awaken the Blood to reach that, so it's not a reasonable option. Also, with this, I'm casting 3-5 BiP's within a 5 second time-frame and end up back at a full 55 health less than a second later, so it's easy to cover multiple people as long as you have the energy.
AtomicMew
A BiPer works as a multiplier, not as a damage dealer. Which is why it's probably not a good idea to go R/N. I like Rii's idea: go caster primary and focus on blood magic skills. I.e., BiP, Dark Fury, OoP, etc.
MuKen
Quote:
Originally Posted by traversc
A BiPer works as a multiplier, not as a damage dealer. Which is why it's probably not a good idea to go R/N. I like Rii's idea: go caster primary and focus on blood magic skills. I.e., BiP, Dark Fury, OoP, etc.
Believe me, I've thought it through, and it is very difficult to make a necro primary build that can bip 4 people constantly, even in pairs. Try it, you'll see what I'm talking about.
Besides, the caster primary gets only +1 to his bips, and in return is way more fragile. With you already sacrificing left and right, if anything targets you, you will die fast.
The ranger build I posted is already capable of keeping BiP up on 4 people per ranger, due to the much greater efficiency of his self healing, which he gets in return for losing only 1 pip of energy regen. Given that this is intended to be used in pairs to affect the whole team, the ranger will have +5 regen himself anyway, so at that point -1 energy degen is not a big deal.
IMO, if you only want half the party bipped, and only in certain places like FoW, then a necro primary is a better choice, like the 55 necro above can work fine. But if you want to bip the whole party then the build I posted is far superior. Consider comparing it to two of the build posted above, for example. First off, the build cannot sustain itself, bips will be lost if things don't die fast enough, bips will be lost when it gets hit (energy loss due to prot bond). Second, it is super fragile, if the protective bond goes down it will die (so it's only good for pve in certain areas).
The dual-ranger setup, however, can bip everyone *constantly*. It is completely self-sufficient, it'll keep going with no energy or health loss over time and no breaks in the bips. Furthermore, it is very durable. Against normal attacks, it can take a decent beating, since they are rangers instead of necros, have 6x the health, and have a good defensive stance they can activate without even interfering with their bip spam. I'd say it's theoretically durable enough to work in many pvp builds.
I considered a dual N/mo version as well, but no self-healing is efficient enough from this to keep up the spam except possibly heal area on two adjacent necros. Of course, now, this gives the enemy the benefit of having a place to run to for free healing when they need it.
Besides, the caster primary gets only +1 to his bips, and in return is way more fragile. With you already sacrificing left and right, if anything targets you, you will die fast.
The ranger build I posted is already capable of keeping BiP up on 4 people per ranger, due to the much greater efficiency of his self healing, which he gets in return for losing only 1 pip of energy regen. Given that this is intended to be used in pairs to affect the whole team, the ranger will have +5 regen himself anyway, so at that point -1 energy degen is not a big deal.
IMO, if you only want half the party bipped, and only in certain places like FoW, then a necro primary is a better choice, like the 55 necro above can work fine. But if you want to bip the whole party then the build I posted is far superior. Consider comparing it to two of the build posted above, for example. First off, the build cannot sustain itself, bips will be lost if things don't die fast enough, bips will be lost when it gets hit (energy loss due to prot bond). Second, it is super fragile, if the protective bond goes down it will die (so it's only good for pve in certain areas).
The dual-ranger setup, however, can bip everyone *constantly*. It is completely self-sufficient, it'll keep going with no energy or health loss over time and no breaks in the bips. Furthermore, it is very durable. Against normal attacks, it can take a decent beating, since they are rangers instead of necros, have 6x the health, and have a good defensive stance they can activate without even interfering with their bip spam. I'd say it's theoretically durable enough to work in many pvp builds.
I considered a dual N/mo version as well, but no self-healing is efficient enough from this to keep up the spam except possibly heal area on two adjacent necros. Of course, now, this gives the enemy the benefit of having a place to run to for free healing when they need it.
Jesus In Disguise
Hi all, quick question: Is it a good idea to make a E/N battery?
rii
Meh, it was forcibly rammed down my throat you can get +7, and i lack the runes to test it myself.
Again, i reiterate, you dont need to waste self healing. Here, you are going on about the build being superior, but it isnt. You choose a role, and then you stick to it. Your choosing the role of a buffer, and your only using 1 buff, using the rest of your build to supplement it.
Im fairly sure that dryders last 10s and has a recharge of 60s, which isnt going to put anyone off. If someone knocks up a defensive stance, itll either be waited out or wild blown. Whatsmore, the healing youve suggested is low outside of simply healing bip sacrifice.
You say that rangers are tougher, but if i remember correctly their only tougher against eles. Isnt their al 70, with +30 against elemental and a further +15 against ele type of your choice? That means if anyone feels like smashing your face in (i.e. a warrior of any sort) they will. Whatsmore, if they do, healing spring will be easily interrupted. Dryders will give you a little running time if your lucky, but then your in trouble.
o yeah, and dont necros have an armour that is 70al against physical? Isnt that the same as rangers? The only counter to the squishy argument is eles and holy damage (that set takes double).
6x the health? Where is this from? Most rangers are the most runed class in the game.
Ive been toying around with it, and basically, two necros can do it. Its of course terribly boring and they are busy, but its doable if you take adavantage of it, by as you said pushing up your efficiency. (it was worked out that a monk with boon and orison with bIp on runs a whole 84% more effectively than its non-biped counterpart - 3 of these guys is to be feared). Whatsmore, two necros can oop and dark fury. oop on say, three warriors, is about +45 damage a hit... thats like a small warrior added on. And dark fury doubles the output of the warriors, thats like.... doubling the amount of warriors -.- In terms of increasing the efficiency of your team those buffs are a great addition to a buff necro.
Again, i reiterate, you dont need to waste self healing. Here, you are going on about the build being superior, but it isnt. You choose a role, and then you stick to it. Your choosing the role of a buffer, and your only using 1 buff, using the rest of your build to supplement it.
Im fairly sure that dryders last 10s and has a recharge of 60s, which isnt going to put anyone off. If someone knocks up a defensive stance, itll either be waited out or wild blown. Whatsmore, the healing youve suggested is low outside of simply healing bip sacrifice.
You say that rangers are tougher, but if i remember correctly their only tougher against eles. Isnt their al 70, with +30 against elemental and a further +15 against ele type of your choice? That means if anyone feels like smashing your face in (i.e. a warrior of any sort) they will. Whatsmore, if they do, healing spring will be easily interrupted. Dryders will give you a little running time if your lucky, but then your in trouble.
o yeah, and dont necros have an armour that is 70al against physical? Isnt that the same as rangers? The only counter to the squishy argument is eles and holy damage (that set takes double).
6x the health? Where is this from? Most rangers are the most runed class in the game.
Ive been toying around with it, and basically, two necros can do it. Its of course terribly boring and they are busy, but its doable if you take adavantage of it, by as you said pushing up your efficiency. (it was worked out that a monk with boon and orison with bIp on runs a whole 84% more effectively than its non-biped counterpart - 3 of these guys is to be feared). Whatsmore, two necros can oop and dark fury. oop on say, three warriors, is about +45 damage a hit... thats like a small warrior added on. And dark fury doubles the output of the warriors, thats like.... doubling the amount of warriors -.- In terms of increasing the efficiency of your team those buffs are a great addition to a buff necro.
Katamari
Quote:
Originally Posted by MuKen
Believe me, I've thought it through, and it is very difficult to make a necro primary build that can bip 4 people constantly, even in pairs. Try it, you'll see what I'm talking about.
Look at my post. I have a necro primary, and I can constantly maintain BiP on 4 people. Heck, I can even maintain it on 7 people IF they kill things fast enough. You have 105/55 total health with a masked Protective Bond on you so there is no danger of the Protective Bond getting shattered. You're regenerating at 6 pips/sec through Blood Renewal so you're always at full health a fraction of a second after you cast a BiP.
Seriously, it feels like you just ignored me.
Seriously, it feels like you just ignored me.
AtomicMew
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katamari
Look at my post. I have a necro primary, and I can constantly maintain BiP on 4 people. Heck, I can even maintain it on 7 people IF they kill things fast enough. You have 105/55 total health with a masked Protective Bond on you so there is no danger of the Protective Bond getting shattered. You're regenerating at 6 pips/sec through Blood Renewal so you're always at full health a fraction of a second after you cast a BiP.
Seriously, it feels like you just ignored me.
105/55 builds are good for nothing but farming. If you take this in any PvP or even normal PvE, you'd be dead so so fast.. There is a reason why no one takes 105/55 builds into missions.
Well, perhaps it can be done. But you need a ton more cover enchantments than the 2 you got.
Seriously, it feels like you just ignored me.
Well, perhaps it can be done. But you need a ton more cover enchantments than the 2 you got.
MuKen
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katamari
Quote: Originally Posted by rii Again, i reiterate, you dont need to waste self healing. Here, you are going on about the build being superior, but it isnt. You choose a role, and then you stick to it. Your choosing the role of a buffer, and your only using 1 buff, using the rest of your build to supplement it. For sustainability purposes, we want efficiency of heals, not spike. Look at the numbers I posted, no monk can match that for healing efficiency, hence the use of the Ranger self-heals.
Quote: Im fairly sure that dryders last 10s and has a recharge of 60s, which isnt going to put anyone off. If someone knocks up a defensive stance, itll either be waited out or wild blown. Whatsmore, the healing youve suggested is low outside of simply healing bip sacrifice. That was the point, to counter the sacrifice, to be sustainable. Yes, dryders will have problems, yes Rangers are only more defensive than warriors against elements, but the main thing is we are NOT comparing rangers to warriors. We are comparing them to necros, and no matter how you slice it, rangers are better tanks than necros.
Quote:
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Whatsmore, if they do, healing spring will be easily interrupted. Dryders will give you a little running time if your lucky, but then your in trouble.
Yes, the build may experience some downtime on the bips when under attack. No plan goes 100% perfect all the time, but what you say is even more true for necro primaries. Quote:
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