Serpents Quickness question

Serpent's Quickness (Stance)
For 23 seconds, recharge times for your attack skills are reduced by 33%. Serpent's Quickness ends if your health drops below 50%.

What exactly counts as attack skills? Is it only Warrior and Ranger attacks or do Elementalist attacks count as Attack skills too?

Attack skills are those skills which say, logically enough, "attack skills" in their skill description. Warrior and Ranger have plenty, Monk has one, but Elementalist has absolutely none. Their attacks are, instead "spells", not "attack skills".

As a simple rule of thumb, attack skills are those skills which require you to use a weapon and somehow make your weapon do something special. They're Debilitating Shot, Power Attack, Disrupting Chop, Distracting Blow, and so on.

Thanks, I should have known that without asking. Now I know for sure.

I'd like to point out that unless they changed it back, serpent's quickness affects all skills not just attack skills, as of the beta before last.

Amity prevents a foe from attacking. Does this only affect attack skills or anything considered offensive (i.e. elementalist spells)?

AFAIK "attack" in a skill description means an attack with any weapon (sword,axe,hammer,bow,staff,wand), including attacks with the use of attack skills. "Spell" is a different category so Amity shouldn't affect spells.

If i remember correctly, actions hierarchy is as follows:

There are spells (like fireball) just labeled 'Spell'. What would be nice, to reduce confusion, is if this spell was called an 'Invocation'. Then, in the description of Enchantment, Hex, and Invocation spells, it can say "Enchantment Spell", "Invocation Spell", "Hex Spell". This will make it clear that there are 3 types of spells. Right now, only the "Invocation" type are labeled "Spell" and thus, one has to really wonder if "Hex" or "Enchantment" are really spells.

There aren't three types of spells, though - there are just spells. The fact that a given skill can have multiple types doesn't change this. I don't see how adding additional, unused classes would do anything but confuse the issue.

Of course I'm posting this on a thread about what an attack skill is...

Peace,
-CxE

Smite said it was a staff attack in the old description. this was most likely before the development of wands, so now it does not mention a specific weapon requirement. do you still need a staff or a wand to use it?

it was my understanding that enchantments and hexes ARE considered spells when cast and can be affected by anything that affects spells like glyphs or mesmer interrupts..

What other kinds of 'spells' are there?

Are skills marked 'Enchantment' or 'Hex' spells then? Fireball is marked 'Spell', so that's clear. Are the ranger attack 'skills' are spells -- the nature rituals? I've got a skill that "interrupts" a "spell". What does it work on? a hex? (yes), an enhancement (yes), a bow attack (no), etc. The problem is that fireball is marked 'spell', when it is an 'Invocation'. All invocations are spells, just like all enhancements and hexes are spells. Spells can be interrupted by those that interrupt 'spells'.

To belabor this point a bit more, "arcane conundrum" has for its description: "For 6-25 seconds, 'spells' cast by target foe take twice as long to cast." So... what in fact takes twice as long? clearly a fireball, but what about a hex? an enhancement? a nature ritual? a ranger's trap? It's _not_ clear.

None. There are just spells.


No.


Neither are spells. They are attack skills and nature rituals, respectively, as listed in their type lines.


Spells.


Not correct - it works on hex spells and enchantment spells. You cannot use a spell interrupt on an enchantment - just an enchantment spell.


It is a spell. Stop making up terms that don't mean anything.


Enchantments and hexes are not spells. Enchantments and hexes are static, temporary effects that can be used upon friendly or hostile targets, respectively.

There is nothing about an enchantment that specifically ties it to being a spell. The two are independent categories.


Here I was thinking this was somehow a confusing concept. So what exactly is the problem?

Peace,
-CxE

An interrupt can not remove an existing enchantment or hex. It CAN interrupt the enchantment or hex as it is cast! Ex. A monk begins casting unyielding aura on a dead ally (4 second cast). If you interrupt it 2 seconds into the cast, the enchantment spell will fail and the ally will not be ressurected. However, if you wait too long, and the spell is cast, the interrupt will be useless. If you cast it on either the monk or the ressurected player nothing will happen, interrupts do not remove existing enchantments. You need something like shatter enchantment for that.

Well, in the last Beta, I was using "interrupts a spell" very successfully when people were casting a hex or enhancement. Yet, if you read the description of the corresponding hexes or enchantments, you will find it _not once_ mentions that it is a spell. Likewise, I could not interrupt, with that same skill, someone setting a trap. Perhaps because hex and enchantment skills are spells, while ranger's trap setting isn't.

I'm looking for consistent naming so that I can figure out when something applys and when something doesn't. Your rant didn't help clarify things at all -- other than by assuming that people intrinsically know if something is a spell or not. Are nature rituals a spell? The webster's definition of "ritual" actually says 'spell', but is it subject to arcane conundrum?

[color=red]Double posted to add: [/color]

Yes, this matches my observation. But, if you note, it _nowhere_ says that a hex is-a spell, nor does it say an enhancement skill is-a spell. Yet we do have something that is a spell -- a fireball. So, I'm left in an ambiguous world, clearly arcane conundrum should apply to a fireball -- but is its slowing-down of enchantment or hex skills a bug? The descriptions of these two items do not say that they are spells.

The problem is "spell" is used _both_ as a category for skills (aka fireball) but also (and implicitly) as a grouping of categories. This ambiguity can be resolved by naming the aka 'spell' skills 'invocations', and the separately list those skill categories which are 'spells'.

Without this fix, the descriptions of most skills which 'affect' spells is under specified, and, I'd argue bugs. If an enchantment or hex are not labeled 'spell', then they should not be affected by arcane conundrum.

No.


Then, how does this affect Mantra of Recovery?

Mantra of Recovery-
For 30-78 seconds, spells you cast recharge 50% faster. Whenever you cast a spell, you lose 8-3 Energy or Mantra of Recovery ends.

This only works on Spells? Not Enchantment spells or Hex Spells? That doesnt make sense...makes it extremely useless.

Yes, it seems that i forgot traps... So, trap is also a skill and an action.

We're getting caught up in definitions and interpretations of skill descriptions here. Are skill descriptions really all that trust-worthy?

But, to ease the confusion, consider it this way. A spell is the act of magically causing something to happen. You pay your energy, you wiggle around a bit, and presto change-o, reality bends to your will. That specific act can be countered or interrupted by things that affect "spells".

Now, one of the magical effects you can create with a spell is to bring into being an enchantment or a hex on your target. That magical, ongoing effect, is something that will last for a set amount of time (Maintained enchantments are another story altogether and, in fact, used to be classified as something altogether different. They were "Blessings" not spells at all. Which led to things like "Rend Blessings" and "Blessed Aura".) and provide a constant or triggerable magical effect of its own. You cannot counter that enchantment or hex by countering a spell. It requires disrupting the magical energies within that enchantment or hex itself and is an entirely different beast than stopping someone from doing the happy dance that lets them create it. You can, of course, prevent the hex or enchantment from coming into being by interrupting or countering the spell that creates it. But that's not countering the hex or enchantment.

If we're really going to get nit-picky about things then there are no "enchantment spells" or "hex spells" there are just "spells". Those things that are enchantment spells now should read "Spell. When used this spell creates an enchantment on target ally that does...whatever". And hex spells should be similar. However, since the enchantment and the spell that created it are so closely linked and share the same name and you'll want to know the effect of the enchantment by looking at the spell and using such a spell sets it out in its own little area full of traps and counters, it's denoted that the spell creates an enchantment by saying it's an "enchantment spell".

Skill classifications are still a bit of a cobbled together mess. At least we're not in the days when there were Blessings and Mantras and Pet Skills and more floating around but some skills just make you scratch your head. Why's Life Siphon a hex and not an enchantment? Why's Shield Bash a skill and not a stance? And so on, there's plenty of fudging and exceptions that make setting out exact rules from skill classifications tilting at windmills at best.

Yeah, Smite's the Monk attack skill. As far as I know, it's never needed a staff to use. In fact, long ago there weren't even any staves in the game. It's always required a melee weapon, a fact which caused me no end of consternation when my Smiting mon/war decided to give it a try. It's not a bad little skill, I mean, it can just carve through undead and Necros where it'll often do more damage than most Final Thrusts without the added precondition of their being under 50%, it just costs too much energy for most Warriors and is burried in an unpopular skill line.

As I recall, in the last Beta, MoE made hexes recharge faster; so hexes must be spells, no?

Someone here is also confused...

So which is it? Are these skills spells or not? Certainly the _result_ of the skill isn't a spell, but then neither is the result of a weapon attack. Brining in the _result_ of the skill is a red herring. I'm talking about the skill itself.

Is 'Barbs' a spell? yes or no! It has a 2 second 'cast' time, is this time extended by 'Arcane Conundrum'? How about 'Dust Trap', is the cast time for this extended by 2 seconds?

Any "Enchantment spell" or "Hex Spell" is also a "Spell", "Skill" and "Action" for these purposes (see a tree in my post above http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...31&postcount=6). So, another skill that interrupts action, spell or skill will also interrupt a casting of an "Enchantment spell" or "Hex Spell". A use of "Enchantment spell" or "Hex Spell" will break a stance that breaks when a player uses a "non-attack skill" (because "Enchantment spell" or "Hex Spell" is a "Skill", but it's not an "Attack skill").

I'm really starting to think you're doing this on purpose...

As was explained several times in this same thread, while they're being cast, skills listed as spells, enchantments and hexes are spells. Other skills aren't.

http://www.rpgforums.net/showthread.php?t=324607
There are chances that Damage-dealing spells are attack skills. Maybe he attacked with a wand and triggered Empathy but he thought that it's a spell. Can anyone confirm or deny this?

I don't care where it is explained in this thread. I'm not a newbie. What I care about is where it is explained in the official skill descriptions. And the point i'm making is that they are ambiguous in this regard, and therefore should be fixed. Everyone in this thread keeps asserting that hex and enchantments are spells, but have not quoted relevant documentation to back up their claim. Similarly, that traps are not spells seems to also be resting on intuitive thinking, and not on verifable skill descriptions.

Please point me to specific, official skill descriptions that say so. The only "spell" I can see is Fireball and the like (hexes and enchantments don't talk about being spells). But regardless, what about nature rituals? or traps? Just like hexes and enchantments they don't say anything about being a spell, yet they have a "cast" time, are you sure they are not spells? (aka, are they affected by arcane conundrum?).

I proposed a model in a bug report. Skills are given one and only one category, such as Hex, Enchantment, Trap, Stance, or my addition, Invocation. And then each of these categories are given attributes such as 'Spell' or 'Attack'. Alternaitvely, each skill listed should have a set of boolean Y/N flags to say if they are considered attack, spell, or what not. My contribution to this thread was suggesting that Fireball and such were 'Invocation's (a word I was proposing in parallel to Hex or Enchantment), so that the word 'Spell' could be used, unambiguously, as a way to mark each skill category. As it stands, Spell is used ambiguously by the skill descriptions; sometimes as a particular kind-of-skill, explicitly provided in the skill's definition -- othertimes as an intuitive grouping of skill categories (aka, all enchantments and hexes are spells).

How do I make this more clear? Consider the sentance: "Hexes and Enchantments are not attacks, but Spells are." that appears in the same post (in RPG forums) with one that talks about hexes being spells. How confusing/contradictory is that. Hence, how about just calling the non-hex, non-enchantment spells 'invocation' and say that Invocation spells are considerd attacks, while hexes or enhancements arn't.

Think of it like this: If it says it's a spell, it's a spell. If It says it's an enchantment it is an enchantment. If it says it's an Enchantment spell (all "enchantments" are like this) it is both a spell and an enchantment escentially.
The same thing applies for hexes. (and no I'm not saying Rend enchantments will work as a spell interrupt :P)
Spells without the word "hex" or "enchantment" before it are just plain spells (without the hex or enchant specialization). Anything else, like mentioned in the heirachy is not a spell! (glyphs, rituals, stances, signets, etc.)
This is how FireMarshal's commented skill (mantra of something) can still work on spells such as hex spells and enchantment spells.

One could also say that when it's being worded, "hex" is an adjective and "spell" is a noun, so "hex spell" = "spell", just like a hungry cat = a cat nonetheless, the fact that it's hungry is just a qualifying adjective.

(not viewing that link (and don't plan to), but I can guess what it's about)There's always a chance of something... but I think it's unlikely any normal spell would be considered an attack skill, because casting a spell does not = attacking by at least my definition of "attacking". The only thing in common is that they both deal damage.
It's certianly also possible that just one or more skills aren't doing what they are supposed to.

It's called experience, not only do non-alphas know this from experience that this is in fact, fact, but the alphas play this game alot and their word is very reliable most of the time.

I am not going to visit that site unless I certianly have to, But let me tell you this: Just the fact that one person said that in RPG forums does not make it true. In fact many many inexperienced people post on ALL boards, but I find the larger more generic game sites forums' have even more inexperienced people. Sausaletus Rex, a long time Guild Wars fan, who's very knowledgable as well as an alpha tester, is a reliable source who will most likely tell you that is wrong. What kind of reliablility does that other person have?
Like I said, even if one or more spells were counted as attack skills, it's possible it was just a glitch in ethier the triggering spell, or the trigger skill.

And cce you should stop calling enchantment spells and hex spells hexes and enchantments, when they are actually "hex spells" and "enchantment spells". My first two paragraphs adress this. Considering that you calssified hex and Enchantment one of hte primary types, And Attack or spell secondary types, it Seems you are registering hex/enchantment as a noun and not an adjective?

Sorry for the misunderstanding cce, but your point wasn't clear between you not knowing the mechanic, or blaming the descriptions.

I agree with you that it should be better explained in the skill descriptions, and your categorization sounds valid.

Now, we all know skill descriptions are lying and need a complete revamp, mainly by a standardization/QA team.

You were countering "Enchantment Spells" and "Hex Spells".

I just checked and the skill descriptions of "Hex Spells" and "Enchantment Spells" on this site are all off. A skill like Backfire is type "Hex Spell", not type 'Hex'. That's a mistake on the site that I'll have to fix - but rest assured that it isn't a mistake in the game.

Is that where the confusion came from?


The distinction *is* important, I might add. There is absolutely nothing stopping arena.net from creating 'Enchantment Signet' or 'Bow Attack Hex' or orther similar types of skills in the future. These work exactly as you'd expect them to.

Peace,
-CxE