Put Corpse Exploitation On Equal Footing

In PvP, wells and minions are not usable since the cast time of 2-4s is almost always beaten by someone mashing Necrotic Traversal or Putrid Explosion. This results in a lack of PvP necomancer diversity -- only those two skills are remotely viable. A well or death animation only has a chance of actually triggering if you're facing a n00b team, using glyph of sacrifice, or there are so many deaths going on that the match is already decided. I would like to see all corpse exploitation skills on equal footing.

I suggest that spells that exploit the dead "reserve" the target corpse right as the spell is cast -- rather than when the spell finishes.


http://www.guild-hall.net/forum/showthread.php?t=29489

I do believe that when a Necromancer begins to cast a spell (i.e. the cast bar comes up) that the corpse is immediately claimed by that spell, regardless of how long it takes to cast it. I have experimented with necro builds and so long as u can punch that key once someone dies, you should be able to cast a minion/horror or do whatever to the corpse that you want to so long as u beat the other guy to the punch.

Exploiting on cast = Bad idea
Able to cast w/o corpse = Bad Idea Stamp

If you played necro before they got popularm you would realize this, but since you're a fly by night iway / whatever necro you could not understand.

This is incorrect. Let me give an example:

There is a corpse on the ground
Two Necros begin casting corpse spells
The spell that COMPLETES first actually gets the corpse, the spell for the other Necro fails.

As the OP said, this is why you don't see Wells being used in PvP. Putrid Explosion has a 1 second cast, and beats any Well or Minion summons. It's a problem in PvE also.

Reserving the corpse for the first caster is an excellent idea.

/signed.

/signed it is true the corpse doesnt get reserved as soon as you cast. I would also like this so it would add diversity to necro tactics.

/signed

Necros shouldn't have to fight over this. If the other guy beats him let it be decided right away.

/NOT signed.

Damned necros in the IWay groups... I'm bringing P.Ex just to keep them wells of suffering from happening next time.

umh sure you can putrid all you want but we don't get to do anything with the corpses cutting out a number off spells in pvp battle

Exactly. As a non-necro, this is strategy.

It has to do with tactics:

If someone uses Necrotic Traversal, he will get nearly all corpses - but get nearly no benefit from it. It is pure corpse denial.

If someone uses well of the profane, he will get only few corpses - but get a huge benefit from it.

You see, it has to do with what tactic you run. A well of the profane is godlike, so it _has_ to be hard to get it off, otherwise all people would only run Well of the Profane and a cheaper Well. Noone would use Necrotic Traversal and the like.

Godlike? I know it denies enchantments from being cast into it and strips enchants but, can't you move out of it?

You could still interrupt a Well/Minion, as they are slow casting spells. If interrupted, the corpse is unreserved, and available for anyone.

You could still perform corpse-denial, but you have to get the corpse before the other guy does.

i use minion bombs alot in 4v4. not that hard to use accually.

but still

/signed

/Semi-signed.

Arguements posted have allowed different discussion from my half.

I would like to see a skill used such as a "necro shout" that can be used to claim the next corpse (High recast time), and if two people use it, it's given to them both, so then it's the speed race.

Absolutely /signed. This is an excellent suggestion.

/signed It should be about who is fastest off the mark with their casting, not who can use the fastest activating spells. If you want to frustrate a Necro interupt their spell-casting, don't just use up corpses.

Still /not signed.

Stupid idea, claiming a corpse.

Hey, maybe anyone that uses corpses should carry little flags that they can go stick in the bodies to claim them.

Sorry, too slow? Too bad.

You can but the point of the well is that it's mass enchantment removal. It strips all enchanments off a person and it does it in an AOE. There's no other single spell that guarantees that you'll get rid of every enchantment on a single person, let alone an area. That they can't get enchantments up while they're standing in the well forces them to move out of position.

Anyway, /signed Corpses really need to become more viable.

/signed

Consider what will happen if corpses are claimed. Now you _never_ know if there is a corpse you can use. There is no way to know it. Therefore you really need to press buttons without thinking.

I explained why it would be bad. Noone proved me wrong. Please do so. I got arguments you can't ignore.

You can always use Glyph of Sacrifice to get the corpse, but at the moment it is really tactic. You need to decide if you try to bring up a well or just deny the corpse.

If corpses are claimed, you can no more run balls. Because you have no chance of removing all corpses. The well of profane will get up, no matter what you do.

So, everyone will have a Well of the Profane, because it is the best corpse exploiting skill in the game. Everyone will run Mantra of Resolve or Glyph of Concentration and the like. So you kicked all enchantments out of the game. Because now you pushed Well of the Profane to an uncounterable skill.

Move out of this well won't help you much: you already lost your defense. And if you are on an altar - you don't have the choice of moving away...

Today you need to think about what to do. You can use Glyph of Sacrifice for a Well, but you won't be able to do that again in a long time...

But if this idea of corpse claiming is introduced, you will get a well of the profane on the altar, no matter what the enemy does. You will get a well of suffering up too. And there is nothing, I repeat: NOTHING, the other team can do to prevent this. (except knockdowns, but knockdowns can't be kept up like interrupts).

Is this the balance you want?


PS:
to everyone who said Wells aren't used in PvP: you play tombs sometime?
I nearly every fight I see a few wells. Sure, some teams never cast wells, some do it more often. But isn't that exactly what it is supposed to be?

and a well of the profane on the altar IS godlike, because you stripped the hero for 20 seconds from all protection.

Damn it. Forum ate my long, detailed post. I don't have the heart to rewrite it. Here's the digest version with me being surly due to the forum:

Well of suffering is powerful because enchant removal sucks anywhere else so enchant heavy builds are at an advantage.

Corpses are a resource, just like energy. The Death line is practically unviable without corpses and the only reason to run necrotic or putrid is to stop the other team from using it for something else. So you've got a whole line of skills that's unusable.

That ain't right. It's most certainly a problem. This is the only viable suggestion I've seen on how to fix it. Well, this and giving all corpse skills the same cast time but that amounts to the same thing.

Unusable? What for? PvP?
Ever played tombs? I nearly always see Well of Profane and Suffering.

So it is a fact: death-skills are not unusable.

I'm going to have to agree on this one that claiming corpses is a bad idea

/not signed

/not signed


You want to take care of opponent's corpse denial? Kill their necro first.

Fair enough. But let's say enchant removal wasn't broken and rend, for example, removed all enchantments on target foe and adjacent foes. Would you really be worried about corpse denial then when any necro could do almost the same as profane without a corpse?

They are useful in pvp, more in gvg. Taking the corpse first is just a necro shut-down, deal with it, kill the necro using the corpses. I've had a problem making minions with a putrid necro before, although that was before the 5 sec recharge time, but just tell your group to kill the necro.

What if, what if, what if,...

You would still need wells, for example Well of Suffering to force someone to go outside the ward. Or Well of the Profane on the altar...

But i don't understand your point. You said, if wells were useless corpse denial won't be important?
You still would want corpse denial for minions. But if minions are also useless - then yes - corpse denial won't be needed.

My point is:
if you want a big advantage out of a corpse, you need to spend time to get it. In this time, someone can steal your corpse. That is fair, because he won't get any big advantage. So there is a need for low casting time spells like Consume Corpse, Necrotic Traversal,... And there is a need for long casting spells like well of the profane, well of suffering,...

The only point we can argue about is: is there a need for 0 sec cooldown corpse spells? That is a valid point, but noone brought it up yet...

Well of profane on the altar is common and feared. the OP hasn't pvped in a while.

lol is this a joke? i can get off a well easy, try having one of your teamates interupt him, or kill their necro, or use fast cast, or dont be stupid and beat him to it. any of those will do

This is exactly right. I don't remember the last time I played with a necro without wotp, and by reading most of these threads.. I'd think it's a worthless skill. If you want your bigger advantage, and use a better corpse spell, do something about the other necro. Right now, all of them are useful, this change would have a downward spiral effect like he mentioned.

Putrid was broken because it could be spammed and be very powerful, now with it's 5 sec recharge.. it's pretty balanced. Nice, cheap, and effective, but can't be it's own little eoe like chain that fuels itself. That change in itself has made the other corpse skills more used, and this was really the only change needed.