I am interested in in-depht discussion on memser skills in sorrows furnance.
[Sparked from the "mesmer not wanted" thread] What skills have absolutely no place in there? How can you recognize a bad mesmer in SF? What can a good mesmer do that cant be just done better by an echo nuker?
Disclaimer: there are a couple things you need to be aware of:
1. PvE is easy. you dont need to have an optimized build, even a n/w [swords] wont just fall over and die while the mobs are rolling on the floor laughing. This is not pvp. So claims like: my r/w [swords] totally owned Thunderhead keep are valid. And irrelevant. Playerskills always play a role, as well as a small amount of luck. If your a good player, you would contribute no matter the profession
2. im not interested in discussion about "fun", thats a given, but instead about efficiency. Fun is fun, you cant prove nor convince someone what the most fun option is. but there is a best option, or at least there are worst options. A good mesmer is of course much better than a bad ele. A polite mesmer is better than an insulting monk for some people.
3. "death" is the best hex you can cast on an enemy.
So here to my first not-even-close-to finished list of skills that i dont want to see on a mesmer no matter what quest. If you manage to provide good reasons for them, feel free to do so - just keep your "mesmers rule, you just are a stupid tank" to yourself, i dont care about subtlety but about success.
dont even bother - category:
Arcane conundrum
10 energy ... nothing. Why not just kill them instead of this pointless (not-)shutdown? this is not pvp. mobs have to die fast as there are lots of them, your massproducing death.
Conjure phantasm
10 energy for ... up to 120 dmg @ 12 illusion. over 12 seconds. on a single target. next.
Illusion of weakness - you have a monk.
Soothing images - what mad adrenaline spike is it that you fear in there? why not just take aegis / wards? 15 energy for nothing.
Chaos storm
drains energy - that means longterm shutdown. But Maelstorm does something better (pathetic damage + 10s of total caster shutdown).
By the time you have drained an caster to an energy level where his spellcasting is actually hindered, he should be dead for at least 10 seconds. The damage is not spectacular enough in my opinion.
ether lord
Junk in pvp. In pve, its beyond junk. If you want to shutdown someone in pve, it has to be fast, else the mob is dead before you finished casting. By the time you run out of energy, every enemy caster should be dead. Theres a reason why people dont use it in pvp, and there you face 8 powerfull, intelligent mobs who cant just be wiped with nuking.
Ignorance
does nothing earthshaking. there are some annoying signet-uses (heal signet bosses), but you could just kill or interrupt them. just a wasted skillslot imho.
Mind Wrack
People said its useless in pvp. During the age of edenial.That should say something. Maybe its a cover hex, but what do you need to cover in pve?
Shatter delusions
Single target damage you trade for the last couple seconds of your hex. why bother, there are better options i think.
Signet of weariness
edenial in pve does not kill anyone. In pvp you face equals so waiting 10 minutes for victory is a good idea. Once mobs become equals, edenial might be a good idea in pve.
wastrel's worry
Direct single target damage. not good enough. not even close.
Arguments for its usefullness have been provided.
***
skills that look good:
Shatter hex
Good damage, also gets rid of a hex. echo that and cast on a hexed tank, and you get an armor-ignoring spike.
However, it is pretty expensive, and useless in areas without heavy hexes. Mobs need to be clustered for full effect.
Slowing hexes are annoying, because you want to get rid of them, but cant since the "charging" tank is too far away.
Backfire
Damage seems good, but many mesmers tell that the skill is lacking. At least you will do considerable damage with this on annoying offtarget casters.
echo
good and versatile - never a bad choice. Unless your other 7 skills are useless, that is. Even more usefull for secondary mesmers.
Arcane echo / mimicry
GREAT skills since exploiting one usefull skill over and over (meteor shower triple nuke) can be very usefull - can add versatility, but at a high cost. Arcane echo can replace echo if you have a good elite. Mimicry is not that great in most PUG situations, but is very nice if you want to "exploit" (use to fullest effect) good elite skills / dual elite combos. To be honest, these skills are one of the reasons why /me is great on eles and necros.
Inspired hex
good way to remove hexes from offtargets (most stuff should attack the gear-holfing tank, so no point in shattering the hex on the monk) and regain energy. Not a main feature of a build, but wont hurt if you have room
if this topic sparks any interest, i will include more skills that i think are totally pointless in SF, as well listen to valid arguments why im wrong. Note that the point of reference is always an echo nuker who could bring maelstorm. If you can do something better then the ele without falling back to superior player skills or using only moronic ele builds as an comparison, im happy to hear about it.
*edit: post is edited
Mesmers in Sorrows Furnance - skills discussion
Saerden
Charcoal Ann
not so sure about the apparent crappiness of Chaos Storm. if you come up against a Dolyak Master then it will definately take you more than 10 seconds to kill him (mark of protection). he will still be casting Orison. Choas storm would be good. if i ever saw any indication that mobs *ever* lose energy...
classic backfire, empathy skills are good. they are always good.
classic backfire, empathy skills are good. they are always good.
Ollj
suggestion:
: 6+1 fast casting
: 12+2 illusion magic
Conjure Phantasm
Clumsiness
fragility
Illusion of Weakness
: 10+1 domination magic
Shatter Hex
Backfire
Chaos Storm
Blackout
Shatter Delusions
Empathy
Cry of Frustration
: 6+3 inspiration
Ether feast
Energy drain
just cut some skills to bri ng the sum down to 8 and get a good energy management, i didn't test it.
: 6+1 fast casting
: 12+2 illusion magic
Conjure Phantasm
Clumsiness
fragility
Illusion of Weakness
: 10+1 domination magic
Shatter Hex
Backfire
Chaos Storm
Blackout
Shatter Delusions
Empathy
Cry of Frustration
: 6+3 inspiration
Ether feast
Energy drain
just cut some skills to bri ng the sum down to 8 and get a good energy management, i didn't test it.
john little
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charcoal Ann
not so sure about the apparent crappiness of Chaos Storm. if you come up against a Dolyak Master then it will definately take you more than 10 seconds to kill him (mark of protection). he will still be casting Orison. Choas storm would be good. if i ever saw any indication that mobs *ever* lose energy...
classic backfire, empathy skills are good. they are always good. but for the cost of chaos storm you could either have a more damaging interrupt, or another skill if an elementalist brings maelstrom (which there is really no reason not to).
classic backfire, empathy skills are good. they are always good. but for the cost of chaos storm you could either have a more damaging interrupt, or another skill if an elementalist brings maelstrom (which there is really no reason not to).
Numa Pompilius
I've been farming (and done all quests except orozoar) with 5 henches (Thom, Devona, Cynn, Mhenlo, Lina) in Sorrows Furnace/Grenths with my Me/Mo.
Maxed out domination, inspiration 12, fast casting 8, leftover in healing prayers; superior rune of domination, major health, rest minors. Collectors wand & focus.
My "meat & potatoes" spells are shatter hex, backfire, empathy, power drain; the rest change with my mood. The only monk spell I ever use is healing breeze, for a quick self-heal when I'm being DOT'ted.
A typical fight has me targetting enemy healers and mesers first, while shattering hexes thrown on the fighters and power draining if given opportunity, then dropping empathy on the melee troops so they kill themselves, THEN I take out necros, as their hexes are valuable ammo for me (each shatter hex does 120 damage to all adjacent: necros spamming 'life transfer' are my best weapons). I always take any bosses last.
I find it pretty easy going.
Maxed out domination, inspiration 12, fast casting 8, leftover in healing prayers; superior rune of domination, major health, rest minors. Collectors wand & focus.
My "meat & potatoes" spells are shatter hex, backfire, empathy, power drain; the rest change with my mood. The only monk spell I ever use is healing breeze, for a quick self-heal when I'm being DOT'ted.
A typical fight has me targetting enemy healers and mesers first, while shattering hexes thrown on the fighters and power draining if given opportunity, then dropping empathy on the melee troops so they kill themselves, THEN I take out necros, as their hexes are valuable ammo for me (each shatter hex does 120 damage to all adjacent: necros spamming 'life transfer' are my best weapons). I always take any bosses last.
I find it pretty easy going.
Zelnox
The last time I went, I was using:
Energy Surge*
Cry of Frustration
Empathy
Diversion
Spirit of Failure or Chaos Storm
Drain Enchantment
Shatter Hex
Rebirth
I used Chaos Storm before, but wanted to try out Spirit of Failure, because I needed energy. Hehe, I don't use Chaos Storm to drain energy. I could bring Arcane Echo to copy Energy Surge* instead.
My goal was to do AOE damage as a mesmer, since I was capturing skills with henchies in the Ring of Fire and Abaddon's Mouth.
Energy Surge*
Cry of Frustration
Empathy
Diversion
Spirit of Failure or Chaos Storm
Drain Enchantment
Shatter Hex
Rebirth
I used Chaos Storm before, but wanted to try out Spirit of Failure, because I needed energy. Hehe, I don't use Chaos Storm to drain energy. I could bring Arcane Echo to copy Energy Surge* instead.
My goal was to do AOE damage as a mesmer, since I was capturing skills with henchies in the Ring of Fire and Abaddon's Mouth.
Phades
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charcoal Ann
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Charcoal Ann
he will still be casting Orison. Choas storm would be good. if i ever saw any indication that mobs *ever* lose energy...
classic backfire, empathy skills are good. they are always good. Ive played around with the more direct energy drain skills on pve mobs and most of them simply dont cast often enough to really make a noticable impact on spells used. However, you can drain energy out of them to zero. This is most noticable on the giant herders, where they fail to use giant stomp if you are able to drain them out before they come into range. Not exactly useful when it comes to the casters, but draining out most casters typically takes awhile anyway. This being the case you can also rule out things like ether lord, malaise, wither, and panic. Unless of course, you plan on taking their pip regen to 0 or lower and drain out their energy pool, as i doubt they focus swap items. Still, doing this is rather impractical on the skill bar, due to the inefficient means to rapidly wipe out large sums of energy due to the changes to energy tap and drain. Guilt and shame seem viable, but mark of subversion seems much better than shame for pve purposes resembling malestorm in function, but without the exhaustion.
coolsti
I also have played SF a bit with my Mesmer/Mo with only henchies, and I take a different variety of skills. I usually always have rebirth so I can resurrect my henchies when we get into trouble. I always have ether feast to heal myself when needed. But otherwise I play around with different combinations.
Often I take out archane echo + chaos storm, because doubling up on chaos storm helps take out mobs attacking my Warrior henchies. I have been using clumsiness and ineptitude (elite) often, as these are very effective against enemy warriors. I usually take one or two spell interruptors, but lately almost never take backfire. It takes too long to cast and doesn't stop the spell. Instead I use mostly Cry of frustration, power spike or power leak. Also diversion is one of my favorites. I use shatter hex on occasion. And I have had fun with the mind wrack + spirit shackles combination. Spirit shackles is very effect to drain the energy of enemy monks, etc., because they tend to attack between casting spells. And when I want a laugh, I equip arcane thievery. So generally I have a few skills that are good against spell casters, a few that work well against fighters, and a few others. Except for chaos storm, I generally don't go out with any direct damaging skills, not even empathy (no room on the skill slot). Yet as long as I am careful not to barge into an overly large enemy mob, I find it easy with my Mesmer and a full team of henchies.
Xue Yi Liang
My Me/N solos with henchies in SF - sometimes I use the following build
Signet of Midnight Plague Touch Epidemic Backfire Chaos Storm Consume Corpse (or Soul Feast) Shatter Hex Energy Tap I keep high Death and Domination, also Fast Cast at 10+, and a little to Inspiration. Wearing Rogue's armor, Korvaldi's Cane and a gold chakram (+12 energy, +5armor>50%, improved recharge 9%). The weapons sometimes change. Sometimes I'll use the Noble Armor with Mogriff's Staff. If I solo with henchies I tank - at best I might bring Devona. I'll bring both monks and Cynn always. But this varies. Basic idea is - I first hit backfire on their healer or mesmer then run to engage their Cleavers and Herders using Signet of Midnight and Epidemic and Chaos storm (I'm usually in the middle of the storm). If one of them removes their "blind" condition I just hit Plague Touch (+/- Epidemic) to blind them again. If Cynn is doing her job I'll also have some helpful nuking. No doubt I'll get a hex or two on me as well so I can use Shatter Hex (that's why I don't take out their mesmer first). Any conditions I get (bleed, cripple etc.) gets Plague Touched to my closest enemy. Depending on the situation I might go after the healers first - but usually I can hit their footsoldiers hard enough to take them out quickly. For me this seems to work better with a Me/N than with a N/Me because Fastcasting really helps you handle the Hexes and conditions effectively. I've also used this build successfully with a fastcast of 13-14 - but 10 seems to be a nice balance. Downside: It takes a little more time to take out healer bosses. It just takes a little longer if one or more henchies is down. (yeah - I didn't have room for a rez sig - being in the front line means I'm not usually the last one standing. And if I am, I'll just rezone). Self-Healing is limited using Soul Feast or Consume Corpse. It's not usually a problem since your melee opponents are blind most of the time which buys you time to kill one and use their corpse. Also Lina seems to be pretty quick to toss Shield of Regen on you, which helps. ---- Another one I use with my Me/N: Enfeeble Virulence Epidemic Soul Feast (or Consume Corpse) Inspired Hex Energy Tap Well of Suffering either Chaos Storm or Backfire I'm still tweaking this one. I'm not tanking with this one. I'll bring Devona, 2 monks and Cynn (maybe). I hit healers/casters with Backfire and others with Enfeeble and Virulence. Epidemic may be overkill (especially considering it's 15 energy price). Enfeeble and Virulence, on the other hand, are cheap (5 energy) and fast (1 sec + fastcast bonus). SF is full of tight corridors and thick melee packs - that's why Virulence and Epidemic are so useful. When someone in the pack goes down you can pull Well of Suffering (on top of your Virulence) for big DOT damage. Remember, it's also important to do some amount of corpse-denial as their Dark Binders like to use Well of Suffering, too. Enfeeble+Epidemic are useful if you get blitzed by a mob. Consume Corpse pulls you out of danger. The Downside: Enfeeble+Virulence+Epidemic is your primary damage dealer - which is effective against packs. But you're still depending on the henchies to deliver spike damage. I'm experimenting with inserting a nice spike damage skill (maybe to replace epidemic) - something better than Energy Burn... Energy management can get a little tricky if you're not paying attention. Self-healing is limited to Soul Feast (which requires some foresight). I wear a Sup Domination Mask - and, if I need to, I'll swap it with my Minor Domination Mask during battle for +75 health).
Epinephrine
Saerden, do you play mesmers? You have some very good skills on that list of "don't bring". Granted, none are starring role skills, but I think that many are workable in builds.
Soothing Images is a fine spell for example, cutting down massively on the damage that any of the little warrior buggers is doing. IIRC Dwarves have Cleave for example, and repeatedly getting Cleaved hurts. Chaos Storm does mild E-Denial, which can help against a healer boss especially, but also does damage that ignores the high armour values of the dwarf warrior types. If you are already invested heavily in domination for good, usable skills you may well add this to your list. I often operate at 16 Domination, and my chaos storm does decent damage. Would I be better off with a really big elementalist spell? Maybe, but I am already invested in Domination to get the backfire that kills in a few casts, right? When my mesmer is geared for anti-caster duty with domination I'll often use this as one of my multi-purpose spells, as it hurts anyone - and when a pack of warrior-types aggro our tank and there are no casters to deal with I'll use my echo on this, dealing 30 damage a second through armour, so it does help. Shatter Delusion: Mostly used to end a Phantom Pain on a fragility spiker build. the deep wound is nice, the damage bonus is nice too. Not so much a PvE build really, but it does work. I've used this skill before, it's not bad. That backfire that just did a bunch of damage, but is about to end can get one last kick of damage in and so on... not a great spell, but not lump-able with Ether Lord in PvE Conjure Phantasm: Fine, you don't like it - I think it tends to get overplayed as well - but if the mesmer is invested in Illusions anyway it's not a bad spell - remember that Mantra of Persistence will extend its duration up over 20 seconds and you get pretty decent degeneration over a long time, and the fast recharge means that you can drop it on a few guys. It adds up over time, and with a big illusion score and a decent mantra of persistence you are dealing damage very efficiently for the energy expended. Would I use it as my main skill? No way, but if I had it in my build I wouldn't hesitate to drop in on folks - it can last 15 seconds at 16 Illusion, and with decent inspiration you can get that to 25, even higher. Many fights last >25 seconds, in which time you can have dropped 2-3 of these (dealing 250 damage each, for some pretty efficient damage/energy) and swung away with an IW for a while.
Theos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saerden
acane conundrum 10 energy ... nothing. Why not just kill them instead of this pointless (not-)shutdown? this is not pvp. mobs have to die fast as there are lots of them, your massproducing death. Conjure phantasm 10 energy for ... up to 120 dmg @ 12 illusion. over 12 seconds. on a single target. next. illusion of weakness - you have a monk. soothing images - what mad adrenaline spike is it that you fear in there? why not just take aegis / wards? 15 energy for nothing. chaos storm drains energy - that means longterm shutdown. But Maelstorm does something better (pathetic damage + 10s of total caster shutdown). By the time you have drained an caster to an energy level where his spellcasting is actually hindered, he should be dead for at least 10 seconds. The damage is not spectacular enough in my opinion. ether lord Junk in pvp. In pve, its beyond junk. If you want to shutdown someone in pve, it has to be fast, else the mob is dead before you finished casting. By the time you run out of energy, every enemy caster should be dead. Theres a reason why people dont use it in pvp, and there you face 8 powerfull, intelligent mobs who cant just be wiped with nuking. ignorance does nothing earthshaking. there are some annoying signet-uses (heal signet bosses), but you could just kill or interrupt them. just a wasted skillslot imho. Mind Wrack People said its useless in pvp. During the age of edenial.That should say something. Maybe its a cover hex, but what do you need to cover in pve? shatter delusions Single target damage you trade for the last couple seconds of your hex. why bother, there are better options i think. signet of weariness edenial in pve does not kill anyone. In pvp you face equals so waiting 10 minutes for victory is a good idea. Once mobs become equals, edenial might be a good idea in pve. wastrel's worry Direct single target damage. not good enough. not even close. |
Arcane Conundrum: Usually useless in PvE, unless you go soloing some mega caster boss, but heck Migrane will be there :P
Illusion of Weakness: Great skill to have incase your monks go retarded on you, happens to everyone, henchies seem to stop healing at points as well. Also there are spikes that do occur... ever been hit by multiple cleavers using cleave?
Conjure Phantasm: ood skill, not great, but an excellent source of spammable degen, what more could you really ask for? 10 energy? Thats no big deal.
Soothing Images: See cleavers/knights. Sympathetic Visage is also good.
Chaos Storm: An ok skill, sometimes can be great, especially in caster rich mobs. Energy shutdown is great even in PvE. I personally do not run this though.
Ether Lord: Why is that here? One of the most underrated good skills in the game. If you are doing anything worthwhile you will be down on energy so the loss of all energy should not affect you. Not to mention that you gain about 20 energy in the time its up... and they lose 20 energy. Also... try facing large mobs not everything dies in 10 seconds. Remember fast cast = more spam = more energy comsumption.
Ignorance: <_< >_>
Mind Wrack: A good build can definatly use this to their advantage vs warriors. Not the greatest of skills, but hey its a cover hex to shatter atleast...
Shatter Delusions: If you do not see the BLARING combo of this skill... you are a mesmer in need of serious training. I personally like spiking 200 damage to a target every 5 seconds. I'd love to see an ele do that for 10 energy >_>
Signet of Weariness: Not a pve skill. Simple as that really.
Wastrel's Worry: Hum... in my opinion the best dot in PvE, especially since you can now utterly shut everything down with the new skill monitor. This is also a good combo skill... but wait combos are bad we want super uber single spells right?
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Saerden
skills that look good:
shatter hex good damage, also gets rid of a hex. echo that and cast on a hexed tank, and you get many enemies down fast. backfire damage is just too good, good enough to ignore the missing AoE  mobs will cast through backfire, so this is damage, and not shutdown. Casting that on the monk in the middle of the meteor shower while the other ele calls another one is a bad idea though. Better reserved for offtargets.echo / arcane echo / mimicry GREAT skills no matter what. You dont need them all the time, since sometimes your build does not work too well with 4 copies of one single spell But all of them are great in their own ways.inspired hex good way to remove hexes from offtargets (most stuff should attack the gear-holfing tank, so no point in shattering the hex on the monk) and regain energy. Not a main feature of a build, but wont hurt if you have room if this topic sparks any interest, i will include more skills that i think are totally pointless in SF, as well listen to valid arguments why im wrong. Note that the point of reference is always an echo nuker who could bring maelstorm. If you can do something better then the ele without falling back to superior player skills or using only moronic ele builds as an comparison, im happy to hear about it. *edit: for some reason, this thread ended up in the wrong forum. i humbly request it to be moved. maybe i am indeed just a stupid tank *edit2: ok some more skills. i managed to forget ether lord. thats a sure sign i have no clues about mesmers ... Shatter Hex: Good skill, nothing to fantastic for a 15 energy spell that is extremly conditional. Not my favorite of skills, so many better things can be used :/ Your energy will disappear with Echo btw. Woohoo 150 damage... oh wait my ele can do that too... but its not conditional  Backfire: Blasphemy... I hate this cookie cutter skill. You know... the AI did improve somewhat and they no longer spam spells with this on. Also the skill pretty much blows major... 15 energy, 20 second recharge, 10 second duration? I think I will pass. This should be in the "I do not know anything beyond domination and want to deal ele damage to casters bin" Echo Family Tree: Great skill? No... not really. These are mediocer copy skills, nothing all to grand about them. What do you plan on echoing thats of any actual value that does not have its own nice quick recharge? Hey echo is an elite too... if we use elites why not simply go with Mantra of Recovery? Its so much more effective than Echo. Inspired Hex/Enchant: Why was enchant not here? Hey mark of prot... hum its mine now fool! Good skills, utilities for energy managment. What I have gathered: You do not play mesmer, you read through cookie cutter builds and made a list. Really you left out so many good skills, you only focused on the most overused skills for the good, and used the most neglected skills for your crap list (given some on the crap list are actual crap). You should do some research first... thats not based on cookies.
Epinephrine
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theos
Ether Lord: Why is that here? One of the most underrated good skills in the game. If you are doing anything worthwhile you will be down on energy so the loss of all energy should not affect you. Not to mention that you gain about 20 energy in the time its up... and they lose 20 energy. Also... try facing large mobs not everything dies in 10 seconds. Remember fast cast = more spam = more energy comsumption.
... Echo Family Tree: Great skill? No... not really. These are mediocer copy skills, nothing all to grand about them. What do you plan on echoing thats of any actual value that does not have its own nice quick recharge? Hey echo is an elite too... if we use elites why not simply go with Mantra of Recovery? Its so much more effective than Echo. I agree with some of your points, so-so on others, but these I disagree with. Ether Lord is horrible in PvE - it has some use in PvP, granted, but horrible in PvE. It lasts 9 seconds at 12 Inspiration, 10 seconds at 16. It grants 3 pips of regen to you and 3 pips of Degen to them. It costs 5, takes 2 seconds to activate and has a 20 second recharge. Maxed out with 16 Inspiration it thus provides 10 energy to you, at a cost of 5+all your remaining energy, netting you <=5 energy. It denies them 10 energy. Over time, since it is 22 seconds per cycle of casting, it thus provides <=5/22 energy per second, or .68 pips, and denies the opponent (singular) 1.36 pips of energy. That's ludicrously bad. Granted, now that they've nerfed everything useful for energy gain on the mesmer side it does look better, but is still isn't great. Compare that to a utility spell like Guilt or Shame; cost is 10 to cast, steal 15 energy maxed out, for a net of 5 gain, 15 denial and counters a spell at the same time. The casting time is the same, but over a minute you'd spend less time casting. It has a slower recharge, but provides 1.4 pips of degeneration, and gets you .47 pips regen - about the same, but: It countered a spell, wasting all the energy spent on it and wasting all the caster time spent on it. It also didn't suck the rest of your energy with it. Even the now gimped Life Tap is a better energy engine - it gets a net of 9/33 for .81 pips regen, and does a lousy .64 pips of denial, but doesn't cost you all remaining energy - so you can actually use it when you aren't scraping the bottom of the figurative barrel. As for Echo tree: Arcane mimcry is pretty weak, with a few exceptions - spells with already long recharge times are barely affected by the long recharge on mimicry, so it can be useful that way. Arcane Echo is expensive for nearly any use, but slightly useable I guess. Echo on the other hand is great. Echo allows you to carry a bit less of anything and adapt to the situation - when sorely pressed I've echoed my Ether Feast; when generating energy as a prot monk I've echoed my blessed signet - that's a lot of energy - if there are tons of hexing opponents in this pack echo the shatter hex, if not you might echo empathy, or your cry of frustration. There is nothing like echo for flexibility.
Theos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Epinephrine
I agree with some of your points, so-so on others, but these I disagree with.
Ether Lord is horrible in PvE - it has some use in PvP, granted, but horrible in PvE. It lasts 9 seconds at 12 Inspiration, 10 seconds at 16. It grants 3 pips of regen to you and 3 pips of Degen to them. It costs 5, takes 2 seconds to activate and has a 20 second recharge. Maxed out with 16 Inspiration it thus provides 10 energy to you, at a cost of 5+all your remaining energy, netting you <=5 energy. It denies them 10 energy. Over time, since it is 22 seconds per cycle of casting, it thus provides <=5/22 energy per second, or .68 pips, and denies the opponent (singular) 1.36 pips of energy. That's ludicrously bad. Granted, now that they've nerfed everything useful for energy gain on the mesmer side it does look better, but is still isn't great. Compare that to a utility spell like Guilt or Shame; cost is 10 to cast, steal 15 energy maxed out, for a net of 5 gain, 15 denial and counters a spell at the same time. The casting time is the same, but over a minute you'd spend less time casting. It has a slower recharge, but provides 1.4 pips of degeneration, and gets you .47 pips regen - about the same, but: It countered a spell, wasting all the energy spent on it and wasting all the caster time spent on it. It also didn't suck the rest of your energy with it. Even the now gimped Life Tap is a better energy engine - it gets a net of 9/33 for .81 pips regen, and does a lousy .64 pips of denial, but doesn't cost you all remaining energy - so you can actually use it when you aren't scraping the bottom of the figurative barrel. As for Echo tree: Arcane mimcry is pretty weak, with a few exceptions - spells with already long recharge times are barely affected by the long recharge on mimicry, so it can be useful that way. Arcane Echo is expensive for nearly any use, but slightly useable I guess. Echo on the other hand is great. Echo allows you to carry a bit less of anything and adapt to the situation - when sorely pressed I've echoed my Ether Feast; when generating energy as a prot monk I've echoed my blessed signet - that's a lot of energy - if there are tons of hexing opponents in this pack echo the shatter hex, if not you might echo empathy, or your cry of frustration. There is nothing like echo for flexibility. All valid points, very valid For ether lord, the reason I personally like it is because the way I structure my builds, very often I find my self at 5 or so energy in near to no time during a battle, so why not use ether lord to deny energy, perhaps I may be extremly stupid in my choice but it has never failed me for a good energy boost in a fix. Granted it is by statistic inferior to even the gimped Etap, I just don't like etaps long cast even with fast cast. Ether Lord is near instant cast making it harder to interupt and again a good fix in a tight spot. I am glad to hear more about this argument though. Ether lord is not my favorite engine, but one of my prefered non elite engines (I prefer mantra of recall above all else). As for guilt/shame, good spells and good argument, I can see how those can be better. Can't really say anything about them Other than conditional but thats not much of an argument As for echo, I agree it is versatile but I also see Mantra of Recovery, which is a stance and therefore instant cast, to be just as versatile if not more so. Echo is limited to one skill for 20 seconds, then 30 seconds of recharge, mantra is (granted 10 more energy than echo) 15 seconds of all skills coming back faster and allowing for alot of good things to occur. Versatile yes, but I do not see them as great skills... especially, as you stated, the non elite versions. Good to have a nice discussion everyonce in a while.
Sister Rosette
Maxed out Blood magic
10 Illusion 7 Fast casting Conjure Phantasam Life Siphon Offering of Blood Vampiric Gaze Shadow Strike Illusion of Weakness Demonic Flesh Blood Renewal Saerden
Ok i think i need to clarify a few points:
1. I am not looking for builds. Especially ones that are less efficient then the standard e/me. What i am looking for is to find out wether a mesmer has a place in a theorycrafted SF team, especially a PUG. You are free to post builds, but they should be better at killing stuff or helping to kill stuff. 2. I am not looking for creativity. Why i may want to try out a triple surge spike with 3 mesmers (for a total of 9 surges hitting for 96 dmg each ), or a dual/quickshot/savage on someone who is MOP/barbed with 5 rangers (alternative: barrage with OOP/OOV spamming necros who echod MOP on everyone in the mob) - i still am interested in the most straightforward way to play the game.3. This was intended as an SF-only thread. It either should be moved, or we should focus on high level PvE content (UW,FoW,SF,Thunderhead keep). I think its fair to not use the best warrior skill in the game: "I Will ruxXxor j00 with this Master Gear of D00m" as a fair comparision, else mesmers are useless most of the time anyway. 4. Note that there are 3 categories - easy (can be done with mind switched of. like griffon farming of old) - effective (mechanically the best option) - fun (looks cool) A complicated combo that does 0.5 more dps then what an ele could do while doing his taxes is nothing i would take into FoW 5. when discussing a skill, remember that there is that e/me just waiting to take your spot on the team. do you really want to take something he can do better...? 6. Since there are lots of mobs, and (almost) no raid-type content, you need to focus on mass-producing death. Shutting down one mob only helps if it increases kills/h (due to lower deaths/h for example). 7. The list is ment for discussion, if this reaches a stage where it will be usefull to others, it will include every mesmer skill in the game with recommendations on SF gameplay as well as conflicting opinions. I will comment on the points brought up later when i have some more time.
Numa Pompilius
It's interesting to see the difference in opinion between the inspiration mesmers (Theo, notably) and the domination mesmers (e.g. me).
I'd never bring most of the skills Theo recommends, like Wastrels Worry, because although it does decent damage and is spammable, if the target uses ANY skill in three seconds it simply ends without doing any damage. IME that happens more often than not. On the other hand shatter hex & backfire & empathy are my main damage dealers. I can safely assume that a healer i've put backfire on is out of the game, and I often echo shatter hex for 2 x 124 points AoE, and any melee enemy who gets empathy on them will lose at least half health before it wears off. With the new interface interrupts are quite useful too. I think I get most of my in-battle energy from interrupts now. Again, those dwarven necros with their life transfer spamming & looong and easily interrupted animate bone minion casts are my best weapons. Chaos storm isn't useless, it does quite a lot of damage to bunched-up enemies but it's not a major damage dealer unless you echo it. It's a nice "softening up" spell though, and I sometimes bring it. Mesmers can't compete with echo nukers for damage (2 x meteor shower @ 15 fire does INSANE amounts of damage & adds knockdown), but my experience is that my mesmer takes down enemies quicker in PvE than my axe warrior. She just can't tank worth a damn.
thisissayantan
Shatter Hex
Power Block (shutting down monk bosses)/Energy Surge Cry of Frustration Backfire Energy Burn Power Leak Rebirth
thisissayantan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius
Mesmers can't compete with echo nukers for damage (2 x meteor shower @ 15 fire does INSANE amounts of damage & adds knockdown), but my experience is that my mesmer takes down enemies quicker in PvE than my axe warrior. She just can't tank worth a damn.
Try Echo shatter hex at 16 Dom magic (125*2 = 250 dmg) followed by energy burn. Also, this is armor penetrating. Has a smaller cooldown time compared to meteor shower. Fyre Brand
This is a really interesting discussion to read. I play a ranger primary and use my mesmer secondary to complement what I've got going on. I hunt mostly Grenths and SF.
In Grenths I use mantra of cold (compared to other ranger stances it lasts forever). My bows +% damage rely on stances so this works well even at an attribute level of 0-3. Depending on the othere ranger skills I'm taking and my approach. I usually take empathy, backfire, cry of frustration, shatter hex, chaos storm, power leak/spike/or energy burn. I have tried fragility builds that are really popular with other rangers, but they require an insane effort for the return and I didn't have much fun with them, or find them as efficient. I have found laying on bleeding (with melandru's arrows), or poison, combo'd with interupts and energy denial I can take down the priest/mesmer/gnasher groups quicker. The rangers and axe warriors aren't much trouble after that. I just wanted to say there are some really good ideas and skill philosphies here I am trying out. Thanks to all.
Epinephrine
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theos
Good to have a nice discussion everyonce in a while. Yup, good talking with you * I refer to them as energy-neutral, but they can be modestenergy recovery as well, it depends of course on the Domination investment. These are some of the only spells I'd consider using at low levels of domination to good effect. You can pick up a 7+1 domination and these spells are basically free, covering their own costs if activated. A much overlooked pair of skills.
Theos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Epinephrine
Yup, good talking with you. * I refer to them as energy-neutral, but they can be modest energy recovery as well, it depends of course on the Domination investment. These are some of the only spells I'd consider using at low levels of domination to good effect. You can pick up a 7+1 domination and these spells are basically free, covering their own costs if activated. A much overlooked pair of skills. |
So lets see: 50 normal energy (I run defense mods not insightful up the wazoo).
- I spend 5 energy to cast Energy Tap* (while it is casting, since there is still a small casting time) I quickly throw on the Mantra.
- I lose 15 energy and poof gain 12. Pretty much cost me 8 energy to make everything run at top speed.
- Mantra will be up with time to spare for when Etap* comes back, so I cast it again gain another 12 energy, and since mantra was on while Etap* was cast it comes back faster.
* Etap can be replaced by Guilt/Shame or both.
Perhaps the downfall of Mantra can be its "spell" only clause, and I will agree with you if you run sigs and stances then echo is good for you. I just can't call Echo a great skill, so I will lose out and no longer call Mantra a great skill, just a very very very good skill, like echo
As for guilt/shame by themselves, I agree they are overlooked. Whenever I run them, since I am not a domination tree hugger, I run them at maximum 10-11 domination, wastrels is still useful and so is shatter del at this level, I am not trying to be an elementalist running mesmer skills. This 10-11 dom allowance, so to say, gives me a small energy boost and a nifty interupt bonus.
Quote: Originally Posted by Numa Pmpilius It's interesting to see the difference in opinion between the inspiration mesmers (Theo, notably) and the domination mesmers (e.g. me).
I'd never bring most of the skills Theo recommends, like Wastrels Worry, because although it does decent damage and is spammable, if the target uses ANY skill in three seconds it simply ends without doing any damage. IME that happens more often than not.
On the other hand shatter hex & backfire & empathy are my main damage dealers. I can safely assume that a healer i've put backfire on is out of the game, and I often echo shatter hex for 2 x 124 points AoE, and any melee enemy who gets empathy on them will lose at least half health before it wears off.
With the new interface interrupts are quite useful too. I think I get most of my in-battle energy from interrupts now. Again, those dwarven necros with their life transfer spamming & looong and easily interrupted animate bone minion casts are my best weapons.
Chaos storm isn't useless, it does quite a lot of damage to bunched-up enemies but it's not a major damage dealer unless you echo it. It's a nice "softening up" spell though, and I sometimes bring it.
Mesmers can't compete with echo nukers for damage (2 x meteor shower @ 15 fire does INSANE amounts of damage & adds knockdown), but my experience is that my mesmer takes down enemies quicker in PvE than my axe warrior. She just can't tank worth a damn. I, personally, am not just an inspiration mesmer. I simply like to leave my options open, however I am not just another cookie mesmer*. As we all know there is an illusion line
... though from most of the mesmer I have ever seen in pve that branch doesn't exist, so then all the more fun for me I am personally just not a fan, sometimes hater***, of Shatter Hex. I find empathy to be a very nice skill, but backfire is just a waste in my eyes. Guilt/Shame are better than backfire and its 10 s duration - 30 s recharge, not to mention that backfire is very often removed (atleast by the much smarter lower level dolys). Note: I am not bashing on you, its just this opinionated view that I have against two skill
Interupting is fun, but inspiration interupting is energetically good fun... ya bad pun. If I run interupt, seeing as how many people believe mesmers can only interupt, I run a dom/insp build and just interupt whatever might try to see the light of day. Interupting is fun, but damn when every group for tombs/UW/FoW wants only interupt it gets old... real quick.
*When ever I make a mesmer build I try to think outside of the box, sometimes combining old builds or dare I say it making cookies better.
**Chain skills: Monsters in PvE have a habit to simply go spell after spell and then go dormant for a while, simply wanding you.
***I hate the skills in question whenever I see a mesmer say "I am zee leet I deal so much damage! Everyone love my awesomeness for I am better than you!" I see this alot... for some reason alot of the mesmers thought they'd be some sort of super gods... if you want to see numbers scroll across your screen be an ele.
Quote:
Try Echo shatter hex at 16 Dom magic (125*2 = 250 dmg) followed by energy burn. Also, this is armor penetrating. Has a smaller cooldown time compared to meteor shower.
Thats not really alot of damage... especially over time. Its a spike, not an actual solid nuke. Also unless you plan on having everyone in one big ball so that shatter hex will hit everything, I doubt you can effectively echo spike this... well SF may allow spiking, since there are so many hexes, but other wise not really.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Saerden
1. I am not looking for builds. Especially ones that are less efficient then the standard e/me. What i am looking for is to find out wether a mesmer has a place in a theorycrafted SF team, especially a PUG. You are free to post builds, but they should be better at killing stuff or helping to kill stuff.
2. I am not looking for creativity. Why i may want to try out a triple surge spike with 3 mesmers (for a total of 9 surges hitting for 96 dmg each ), or a dual/quickshot/savage on someone who is MOP/barbed with 5 rangers (alternative: barrage with OOP/OOV spamming necros who echod MOP on everyone in the mob) - i still am interested in the most straightforward way to play the game. 3. This was intended as an SF-only thread. It either should be moved, or we should focus on high level PvE content (UW,FoW,SF,Thunderhead keep). I think its fair to not use the best warrior skill in the game: "I Will ruxXxor j00 with this Master Gear of D00m" as a fair comparision, else mesmers are useless most of the time anyway. 4. Note that there are 3 categories - easy (can be done with mind switched of. like griffon farming of old) - effective (mechanically the best option) - fun (looks cool) A complicated combo that does 0.5 more dps then what an ele could do while doing his taxes is nothing i would take into FoW 5. when discussing a skill, remember that there is that e/me just waiting to take your spot on the team. do you really want to take something he can do better...? 6. Since there are lots of mobs, and (almost) no raid-type content, you need to focus on mass-producing death. Shutting down one mob only helps if it increases kills/h (due to lower deaths/h for example). 7. The list is ment for discussion, if this reaches a stage where it will be usefull to others, it will include every mesmer skill in the game with recommendations on SF gameplay as well as conflicting opinions. I will comment on the points brought up later when i have some more time. 1.) Well... Ele/Mes is probably better than a large portion of the mesmerin the game, atleast the majority of what I have seen is an elementalist dancing in mesmer clothing... or a domination memser who tries to do "uber" damage, for reference look at the shatter hex comments that have been made... boy I hate that skill >< 2.) Pass... I play only creativily... 3.) Only focusing on high level PvE, or atleast I am trying to. 4.) Most of the domination tree is "- easy (can be done with mind switched of. like griffon farming of old)" The other branches take some actual thinking to make useful. 5.) >_> "Omzor kick the mesmer and get another tank" 6.) Shuting down one enemy is not a bad thing, it increases focus on other enemies, it decreases over all damage, it makes that unit "dead", and usually makes death faster. Mass producing death is not always the best of the best, some mobs won't go down super death style, and I personally wish alot of mobs became smarter and wouldn't fall for the 90% cookie builds out there. 7.) I suggest putting up every skill to be bashed/destroyed/praised/etc... but then again none of us have that much time >_> Boy that was fun, I await your great responses. To some degree however I believe that Epinephrine and myself have beaten the topic we started to discuss to near death... maybe we should start another discussion.
Arcanis the Omnipotent
Well Saerden, since you and I never see Eye to Eye on any of this, I'll post my build and maybe you can figure it out.
FC: 7 Dom: 11 Illusion: 11 Air: 10 Energy Surge Energy Burn Chaos Storm Conjure Phantasm Phantom Pain (Unless I bring my Rez) Lightning Strike Eneveneration Charge Chain Lightning. As for Mob Damage, and you were saying that it has to be able to take out large ammounts of targets. Lets start it out. Mob A Cast Conjure Phantasm on one target, select the target next to it and cast Chaos Storm, go to another target and cast Energy Surge for a 64 Damage spread to the mob. Cast Chain Lightning on another guy (preferably on the other side of the mob). By this point Conjure will have run out, find the guy with the most health left, cast Conjure and Energy Burn on him. There you go, one dead mob. Use Strike and Charge on individual targets, usually the warrior who is attacking the monk, to cause both damage and weakness. Amused Observer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charcoal Ann
not so sure about the apparent crappiness of Chaos Storm. if you come up against a Dolyak Master then it will definately take you more than 10 seconds to kill him (mark of protection). he will still be casting Orison. Choas storm would be good. if i ever saw any indication that mobs *ever* lose energy...
classic backfire, empathy skills are good. they are always good. I use chaos storm for my aoe based Me/E. At 16 dom, that's 15 damage and -7 energy per second for 10 seconds. It's a fairly effective spell on casters b/c they will soon not have the energy to cast spells. And even if the mob spams RoF (i.e. smites), they can't stop all the damage from this spell. W/ the nerf, the energy gains and losses will now show up in purple. Amused Observer
To complete my input on this thread, my Me/E runs w/ chaos storm, arcane echo, firestorm, glyph of lesser energy, glyph of renewal [elite], backfire, ward melee, and rez sig. Pts go 12+4 dom, 9 fire, rest in earth and fast casting.
I target gnashers first, heretics, herders, ice golems, then rangers and carvers. I carry the ward melee b/c I find that I'm usually the target for mobs (rangers, herders, and carvers). The glyph renewal is a very nifty spell (post nerf) b/c along w/ arcane echo, I am able to cast 3 chaos storm, firestorm, or backfire, depending on the mob my party faces.
octaviancmb
Speaking just about GF and SF, I'm very much a supporter of Shatter Hex. I don't think there's anything else that will give you this massive a damage spike with an AoE. In *other* areas of Guildwars, it's much less spectacular, so I can understand if people don't like the skill -- it's virtually never on my bar in other areas, either.
My 16 Domination Mesmer does far more damage than my 16 fire echo-nuker. I'm very much unimpressed by Fire damage over time in these high level areas -- things tend to have armor levels that negate huge portions of your damage (and as I've said in other threads, the only reason Fire elementalists are doing so much damage is that people tend to take two or three of them with them). I prefer Shatter Hex, Backfire, and Empathy. Empathy especially is excellent under Mantra or Echoed. Sure, some of you may call it "cookie cutter," but it's certainly less cookie cutter than an echo nuker. Wastrel's Worry, too, can be a fine damage dealer. I used to think it was just horrible until I played through the game as a Necro and almost always got hit with WW damage. Wastrel's will regularly trigger on a necro or elementalist (player or monster) due to their extended casting times. It's also quite good to cast on melee mobs if they're chasing you. Wastrels and run around your tanks until the mobs are dead or the tanks have taken the agro back. There are other uses for PvP, but we're not talking about those here. However, this skill gets so much hate from players who don't really know any better that I'd never try to find a group by telling them I had it in my bar. I've found Illusion Mesmers to be much harder to find groups for. People have a lot of hate toward the spammable Illusion spells (Fragility, Conjure Phantasm, etc), and there's also the perception problem (people expect you to be an interrupter, and Illusion is not the line for that). Illusion, however, contains some of my favorite spells: Clumsiness (great damage dealer, and fantastic under Mantra of Recovery) and Soothing Images (remarkable in SF). Illusion also combos quite well with other Mesmer lines, but people usually can't think that far. The Inspiration line is just spectacular in all ways. Many of you have already commented on the greatness of this line, but I'll add that I've had a lot of success with Mantra of Earth (once I'm down in the Furnace proper). Those Summit Wardens have an annoying spike, and Mantra of Earth helps mitigate that, making a huge spike into a relatively minor annoyance. For the OP, here are some reasons to include a Mesmer in your groupRanger mobs tend to be a problem for elementalists. It's much, much more difficult for them to interrupt the damage spells of a Mesmer. Mesmer damage is virtually always armor-ignoring. You'll never have to wait on a Mesmer using Mesmer skills to recover from exhaustion. cmb
Theos
Quote:
Originally Posted by octaviancmb
I've found Illusion Mesmers to be much harder to find groups for. People have a lot of hate toward the spammable Illusion spells (Fragility, Conjure Phantasm, etc), and there's also the perception problem (people expect you to be an interrupter, and Illusion is not the line for that). Illusion, however, contains some of my favorite spells: Clumsiness (great damage dealer, and fantastic under Mantra of Recovery) and Soothing Images (remarkable in SF). Illusion also combos quite well with other Mesmer lines, but people usually can't think that far.
cmb There you go, I am not the only one who knows that mesmers have a line beyond Domination... oh the joy Saerden
Well after i found out that 55hp monkss best friend is a n/me, im curious wether there are other winning combos involving primary mesmers, espescially in SF.
The main problem is SF itself. It may seem high-end, but the master gear of doom makes tactics irrelevant most of the time. I base my assumptions on mobs clustered farming style attacking a protected tank. That may be unfair. I also edited the main post. When i find some time, i will try to comment on some of the points mentioned in this thread. I think some dps calculations may or may not prove me (and many other players) wrong.
Arcanis the Omnipotent
I think what you want is a Mesmer/Monk whose only job is to protect everyone else, given that the skills you ask for are shutdown and anti-hex.
Brother Redmund
Well then, from what I have read of the mesmer purists out there, you're gonna hate what I have to say. I farm sorrows using my mesmer every few days with a w/mo guild mate of mine. We take mhenlo and lina and off we go.
The skill set I find gives me the most fluid casting approach for my char is: energy tap chaos storm conjure phantasm shatter delusions empathy backfire energy drain - elite res sig when it comes to farming SF mobs, I tend to hit gnasher/warden/taskmaster with backfire straight up, my tank mate engages the melee monsters so i throw chaos storm on the mob around him, followed by phantasm and empathy on one, e-tap or e-drain for leech, shatter delusions ends phantasm with near 80dmg bonus. I know ppl will look at this and scoff; probably rightly so too, based on the plethora of builds ppl are using to farm. having said this, i find it is most successful, having two leech spells means i very rarely wait to for regen to cast. i have tried shame and/or guilt on a number of runs but for the 10 secs duration i would prefer one spike of a backfire for 147dmg rather than pinching 14 energy. I have farmed fairly successfully, and having found a good method, we can do it 2 of us and 2 monk henches. my favourite combo is for support of tanks: phantasm, empathy, leech spell, shatter delusions; and despite the shortcomings of each spell in direct comparison with another that could occupy your skillbar, if you string them together and time it well, your tank companion can find himself wondering why he only got to hit that stone summit dwarf once or twice before it died. great discussion, hopefully no-one cans my build too much, or as being too "easy", cos i feel it still requires a fair degree of skill and timing to execute well. thnx all! BannyD
Ive been reading this over and had some thoughts of my own on how to utilize mesmers in sf incredibly...im not sure if this would work but if anyone can try and tell me id be greatful
Mesmer/Monk (tank): Ineptitude [E], Clumsiness, Phantom Pain, Conjure Phantasm, energy tap, spirit of failure, distortion, rebirth Illusion - 16 (12+4) Inspiration - 12 (11+1) Fast Cast - 7 (6+1) this mesmer can take on several warriors at once. drop spirit of failure then ineptitude on one followed by phantom pain, clumsiness, and conjure phantasm or whatever you can cast before spirit of failure is up again..cast it on another fighter type. if you keep distortion up you should be gaining energy everytime you are attacked while maintaining DoT's and spiking Ineptitude + Clumsiness you are bound to have hex's cast on you frequently and as well are highly suceptible (sp?) to spells. it might be wise to have another mesmer (possible necro secondary) in your group who uses the dom tree shattering the hexes cast on you as well as hurting groups and casters with chaos storm + backfire respectively. if necro secondary, he can utilize price of failure on the mobs your tanking. (can also throw in empathy and hell even spiteful spirit for AoE dmg) evillorderic
I have been running this build for SF farming for about a week, and I must say it has gone very well. Usually I can get off two firestorms, and a chaos storm before the other ele can got off their first spell (maybe 2)
Arcane Echo Chaos Storm Fire Storm Energy Surge Shatter Hex Backfire Power Spike I have just enough energy so that never tends to be a problem, and if the warrior aggros correctly, say bye bye to the giant group of monsters in a few seconds.  It is still very hard to get a group, people are pretty much stuck with the whole Tank, 2 nuker, and 2 monk teams. I have a hard time 'advertising' myself too. Usually I just stick with Fast Casting Nuker LFG farming blah blah blah' That gets some attention, but not a lot :\
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