Aftershock, Holy Strike, and you.

Banebow

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2005

[KoA] Knights of the Alliance

Me/

11 Oct 2005 at 04:22 - 1

Well, I have been using a spike damage KD warrior in competition arenas for a while now, and figured I would post a comparision between aftershock and holy strike, the two skills that a spike hammer warrior would consider for his damage spike (if he or she intends to use one, rather than just hammer attacks).

Please keep in mind that this is not here to tell you which is better, mearly to compare the two and let everyone make an educated choice. (and, of course, tell you which I prefer

)

I normaly run with 10 in the attribute linked to the skill (smiting prayers/earth magic)

So first, the Pros:

Aftershock:
Large damage to low-armor targets.
Area-of-Effect.

Holy Strike:
Same damage to all targets.
Small aftercast.
5 energy cost.
Short cooldown.

Cons:

Aftershock:
10 energy cost.
Horrible aftercast.
Long cooldown.

Holy Strike:
Fairly small damage.

As you can see, aftershock has more downsides than Holy Strike, and fewer good things about it. However, the downside of Holy Strike can more than make up for this, because as a spike warrior, dps is a big deal, and aftershock makes a wonderfull final-hit spell, doing (at my attribute spread) 44 more damage than Holy Strike, 79 + 45 compared to 40 + 40. However, if you can chain knockdowns fast enough, then the 8 second cooldown on holy strike will suddenly become a great thing indeed, as you will be able to use it much more often. This is also due to it costing 1/2 as much as aftershock.

What it comes down to is this: Do you want to risk not killing the target with your spike, but saving some energy and being able to get right back to attacking, or do you want to stand a better chance of killing your target, but not being able to spike as often and not being able to follow through the spike with a strong attack? Or perhaps you want neither, and will go 16 hammer 13-14-15 strength.

My preference is Holy Strike, because the hammer swing after it usualy does about 40+ damage, and gives me one strike of adrenaline, so it makes up for aftershocks punch, and I can spike more often for less energy. I doubt I will go back to aftershock, except to continue comparisions of the two, or if my guild had a strange combo to try. Plus, with 10 smiting prayers, you can delve deeper in to the smiting skill line and see if there is anything in there to aid you. Scourge Healing anyone?

Thoughts? Comments?
-Banebow

stefan16

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jul 2005

The Heroes Of Revenge [Thor]

W/Mo

11 Oct 2005 at 07:10 - 2

Yes, since holy strike was buffed its a nice skill, i tried it also works great, also its armor ignoring offcourse

But now there another skills called Smite that does less damage but costs 10E, they need to buff those skills also.. have a look its funny how weird powerefull this smite skill is compared to the other who were not buffed

[FnG] Lazz

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Sep 2005

Fun 'n' Games

W/Mo

11 Oct 2005 at 17:13 - 3

Personally I use Aftershock and Whirlwind. This is because aftershock does additional damage when enemies are knocked down

Of course the downside is that 1. the combination of both skills takes 20 energy (which for a warrior, isnt good) and 2. Having to have an extra skill equiped just to make aftershock work more effectively means one less space on your skillbar. Though if anyone has any better idea's I'd like to hear them

entropy

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2005

N/W

11 Oct 2005 at 17:18 - 4

Aftershock only if running earth shaker which is da bomb now. 70 dmg to many targets is worth it. Otherwise holy strike ftw

stefan16

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jul 2005

The Heroes Of Revenge [Thor]

W/Mo

11 Oct 2005 at 20:17 - 5

Quote:

Originally Posted by [FnG] Lazz

Personally I use Aftershock and Whirlwind. This is because aftershock does additional damage when enemies are knocked down

Holy strike also does additional damage vs knocked down ftw

Banebow

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2005

[KoA] Knights of the Alliance

Me/

11 Oct 2005 at 23:37 - 6

Quote:

Personally I use Aftershock and Whirlwind. This is because aftershock does additional damage when enemies are knocked down If you are using aftershock on a warrior, you are usualy a hammer warrior, and one using knockdown skills like hammer bash, which knocks down.

smurfhunter

Banned

Join Date: Aug 2005

my w/mo uses mending, orison, and healing breeze. you cant kill him.

Sand Scorpions [SS]

W/Mo

12 Oct 2005 at 01:34 - 7

i barely have time since i use crushing blow

.__.

idk id say aftershock is better simply because you spend the attributes in something more usefull to your team, for example you can take a ward against foes.

maybe

NatalieD

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2005

22 Oct 2005 at 10:04 - 8

Quote:

Originally Posted by smurfhunter

i barely have time since i use crushing blow

.__. The idea is to go Devastating Hammer -> Crushing Blow -> Hammer Bash -> Aftershock.

(Substitute Earthshaker, Heavy Blow, and/or Holy Strike depending on preferences.)

Banebow

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2005

[KoA] Knights of the Alliance

Me/

22 Oct 2005 at 17:35 - 9

Quote:

Originally Posted by NatalieD

The idea is to go Devastating Hammer -> Crushing Blow -> Hammer Bash -> Aftershock. I actualy prefer Devastating Hammer -> Crushing Blow -> Mighty Blow -> Hammer Bash -> Aftershock/Holy Strike. The speed boost from frenzy provides a fast enough attack rate to fit this in, if you are using stoneskin gauntlets.

Zenoi X

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Aug 2005

Florida

The Migrant Workers Guild

E/R

26 Oct 2005 at 22:25 - 10

They both have their advantages, however I'd personally go with Holy Strike. Holy Strike is not as good as Aftershock is, however smiting has always worked good with my warrior (Judge's Insight, Shield of Judgement, etc.). Don't simply think about which single skill is better, think about which skill type goes best with knockdown. Smiting does use a lot of energy, however, so earth magic might be better. It's all circumstantial.

Banebow

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2005

[KoA] Knights of the Alliance

Me/

26 Oct 2005 at 23:24 - 11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenoi X

Smiting does use a lot of energy, however, so earth magic might be better. For earth, however, you will probably be running expensive wards, so they both cost fairly heavily on the warrior.

NatalieD

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2005

27 Oct 2005 at 15:54 - 12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banebow

For earth, however, you will probably be running expensive wards, so they both cost fairly heavily on the warrior. Why would you use wards on a pvp warrior? You're going to be running all over the place...

The Muffen Man

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Sep 2005

Druery Lane

27 Oct 2005 at 16:45 - 13

This is what I use with my hammer warrior and its pretty effective half the time I dont even get a chance to use aftershock cause they are already dead

rez, wild blow, sprint, frenzy, devastating hammer, crushing blow, HEAVY BLOW (at 15 hammer it gives + 30 and knocks down thats in combination with dev hammer) if using a different elite then hammer bash, aftershock and a zealous upgrade I never runout of energy unless Im interrupted by those pesky rangers but then I bring wild blow to end there stances and to end tf axe warriors stance as well is pretty funny actualy rez and wild blow never leave my skill bar
wild blow is great

entropy

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2005

N/W

27 Oct 2005 at 19:32 - 14

Bah heavy blow is pretty bad. Its a conditional knockdown and usually conditions are removed pretty quick so your pretty screwed if its gone.

audioaxes

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

27 Oct 2005 at 23:34 - 15

and hammer bash is so much better because omg it knocks me down with no extra damage im going to die

entropy

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2005

N/W

28 Oct 2005 at 00:46 - 16

Yea it does what its supposed to do whereas heavy blow doesn't much of the time. And WTF are you talking about? Are you trying to solo monks now?
Really knockdowns aren't even about damage. If I could create a hammer warrior that knocked down 4 times in a row but with no dmg I would do it. Its about actually knocking them down NOT dmg. Axes outdamage hammer's by far so go with them if you want to do extra dmg. You don't seem to get that.

NatalieD

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2005

28 Oct 2005 at 05:31 - 17

But it's not just about knocking them down. If all you cared about was disabling them, you'd be better off as a mesmer. Hammers are for disabling and damaging. Kind of in between mesmers and axe warriors.

audioaxes

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

28 Oct 2005 at 07:19 - 18

uh yes you still need damage if you want to break the treshhold for the kill. If someone randomly knocks me down with hammer bash i lol, get up, and carry on with my business.
now lets see about this situational condition that makes heavy bash so worthless:
so you do devastating -> crushing -> heavy..... do you know how many times someone actually removed the weakness before i hit them with heavy? I never even remember seeing this happen so ill say less than 3 times out of 100 combos. So is ditching the crucial extra damage of heavy blow for hammer bash just to remove the very small chance someone is going to remove weakness in less than 2 seconds?
ok now...the second argument..... so somehow your devastating hammer misses. This is not the end of the world. So what if you could still do a hammer bash you missed a crucial knockdown in your combo. The monk will just get up. And besides whatever enchant/hex/stance that had you miss devastating will most likely still be ineffect when you do hammer bash so you may still miss that anyway.

The Muffen Man

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Sep 2005

Druery Lane

W/

28 Oct 2005 at 14:57 - 19

Quote:
Originally Posted by audioaxes
uh yes you still need damage if you want to break the treshhold for the kill. If someone randomly knocks me down with hammer bash i lol, get up, and carry on with my business.
now lets see about this situational condition that makes heavy bash so worthless:
so you do devastating -> crushing -> heavy..... do you know how many times someone actually removed the weakness before i hit them with heavy? I never even remember seeing this happen so ill say less than 3 times out of 100 combos. So is ditching the crucial extra damage of heavy blow for hammer bash just to remove the very small chance someone is going to remove weakness in less than 2 seconds?
ok now...the second argument..... so somehow your devastating hammer misses. This is not the end of the world. So what if you could still do a hammer bash you missed a crucial knockdown in your combo. The monk will just get up. And besides whatever enchant/hex/stance that had you miss devastating will most likely still be ineffect when you do hammer bash so you may still miss that anyway.

The man speakes wisdom

lyra_song

Hell's Protector

Join Date: Oct 2005

R/Mo

28 Oct 2005 at 15:54 - 20

Unless the player is using an anti-knockdown stance, its almost impossible to remove the weakness in time to prevent the knockdown from heavy blow unless its a seperate monk using mend ailment. Even then, ill knock you out of your stance.

In random arena (where theres less chance of a monk), getting caught with devastating usually means that its the end. Knockdown, weakness, deepwound, then another knockdown as soon as you get up and then aftershock. If you survive that, i usually save a 5 energy cost attack to finish you off with wild blow (guranteed critical).

on topic:

Im gonna go experiment with holy strike thanks to this post

JYX

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2005

28 Oct 2005 at 17:21 - 21

Quote:
Originally Posted by audioaxes
uh yes you still need damage if you want to break the treshhold for the kill. If someone randomly knocks me down with hammer bash i lol, get up, and carry on with my business.
After three seconds with your ass planted firmly on the floor. 2 eviscerates/executioner's planted in your face and maybe a quick shatter if your prot monk starts reacting. Since when was this a solo game?
Quote: Originally Posted by audioaxes now lets see about this situational condition that makes heavy bash so worthless
so you do devastating -> crushing -> heavy..... do you know how many times someone actually removed the weakness before i hit them with heavy? I never even remember seeing this happen so ill say less than 3 times out of 100 combos. You assume incorrectly. Thats not the only thing that makes heavy blow inferior to hammer bash. The chance of someone casting mend ailment on themselves is one thing, the chance of a removal, restoration or a martyr going off in the ~3-4 seconds since your Devastating is not inconcievable. In a balanced build, especially since we're now seeing a lot more protting as a reaction to spike, the chances of one of these going off is not unlikely.

In addition to this, there is another problem. What if you just killed your target in the hits before your heavy blow? Then your 6 adrenaline is wasted, whereas with bash, you can turn around and take someone out of the game for 3 seconds.
Quote: Originally Posted by audioaxes So is ditching the crucial extra damage of heavy blow for hammer bash just to remove the very small chance someone is going to remove weakness in less than 2 seconds? Its not 2 seconds, certainly not less than. Your devastating goes on, then you have 2 shots, then your heavy blow goes on. This is under frenzy, you firgure out how long those swings take. The damage is not crucial, it is tantamount to another hit. Nice to have, but in the grand scheme of things, considering you're part of a 2-3 warrior group...minor.
Quote: Originally Posted by audioaxes
ok now...the second argument..... so somehow your devastating hammer misses. This is not the end of the world. So what if you could still do a hammer bash you missed a crucial knockdown in your combo. Everybody loves their combos. Difference here being you don't completely waste 6 adrenaline. You're trading that off for the equivalent of another hit? No deal for me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by audioaxes
The monk will just get up. Or he may get caved in still by 2 eviscs 2 exes and an irresistable. Whats your point?...The monk may just get up after your normal chain. This way at least you got something out of it, 6 adren wasted is a lot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by audioaxes
And besides whatever enchant/hex/stance that had you miss devastating will most likely still be ineffect when you do hammer bash so you may still miss that anyway. Again you assume too much. Why are you hitting the same person? What are your disenchanters doing? Where is that mesmer with shatter? The simple fact is, Hammer Bash is more conditional...not just on weakness. Its conditional on the target not dying, its conditional on the enemy having 1 remover, its conditional on you connecting Devastating. The way to compare skills is in parallel. For this conditional effect, you get more damage...I'm not saying more damage is bad...take it if you want. In my team, with my setup...its not worth it.

Banebow

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2005

[KoA] Knights of the Alliance

Me/

29 Oct 2005 at 00:16 - 22

Quote:
Originally Posted by entropy
If I could create a hammer warrior that knocked down 4 times in a row but with no dmg I would do it. I would probably try one, certianly. But we can not, so why should we not also attempt to include as much power as possible? Also, axe warriors will outdamage a hammer warrior against a monk who sits there doing nothing. Hammers stop healing as well as doing damage, and that is no small thing.

As to the large discussion about hammer bash versus heavy blow. If you have the choice between a conditional knockdown and an unconditional knockdown, the choice should always be with the unconditional one. A lot of the danger from hammers comes from being able to knock down your foes, and you need to get that as often as possible. Even a 1 in 100 chance is a large risk when your team is counting on you. Add in the fact that any team that wins in tombs often is going to have more than one condition removal, and you end up with, I don't know, a 50% chance of success with heavy blow? No thank you.

Taurus

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Oct 2005

Mexico

Go for the eyes [jizz]

W/Mo

29 Oct 2005 at 03:58 - 23

Ive been a Smiting Hammerdin for ages in GW, just a tip, dont rely so much on adrenal kd skills, purge conds pwns dev. hammer easily ( instant casting ), plus if someone is blocking or evading u, ur useless.

entropy

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2005

N/W

29 Oct 2005 at 05:15 - 24

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banebow
I would probably try one, certianly. But we can not, so why should we not also attempt to include as much power as possible? Also, axe warriors will outdamage a hammer warrior against a monk who sits there doing nothing. Hammers stop healing as well as doing damage, and that is no small thing.

As to the large discussion about hammer bash versus heavy blow. If you have the choice between a conditional knockdown and an unconditional knockdown, the choice should always be with the unconditional one. A lot of the danger from hammers comes from being able to knock down your foes, and you need to get that as often as possible. Even a 1 in 100 chance is a large risk when your team is counting on you. Add in the fact that any team that wins in tombs often is going to have more than one condition removal, and you end up with, I don't know, a 50% chance of success with heavy blow? No thank you. Umm are you agreeing or disagreeing cause if you read my post its what I was saying...

Banebow

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2005

[KoA] Knights of the Alliance

Me/

29 Oct 2005 at 05:22 - 25

Quote:
Originally Posted by entropy
Umm are you agreeing or disagreeing cause if you read my post its what I was saying...

Translation of my earlier post:
I agree with you that knockdown is more important, I disagree with you that damage should not be a factor.

Quote:
I've always wondered where people use Mighty Blow in the chain considering it uses adrenaline, useing the skill puts you down one adrenaline so you need to space out one hit between it and any other adren skills. Plus you need to use it before you use Hammer Bash/Heavy Blow.

So do you use:

Mighty Blow -> Generic Hit or Energy-Based Attack -> (Start Knockdown Chain)

or

Devestating/Back Breaker/Earth Shaker -> Generic Hit or Energy-Based Attack -> Mighty Blow -> Generic Hit or Energy-Based Attack -> Hammer Bash/Heavy Blow

Note that even with frenzy that the 2nd method still leaves a considerable space between the 1st and 2nd knockdown unless perhaps you use Backbreaker.Anyways, I like to use Holy Strike as opposed to sticking to pure warrior becuase I can chain it on the end of Irresitable Blow against a blocking opponent. Plus Holy Strike gets past Prot Spirit too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taurus
just a tip, dont rely so much on adrenal kd skills, purge conds pwns dev. hammer easily How handy that I am not using it for the weakness then, eh? By the way, the word is "owns". "pwns" is a silly word that probably came about by someone typing to fast

entropy

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2005

N/W

29 Oct 2005 at 05:56 - 26

But you said that axes outdamage a hammer which is why all I wanted to point out was that hammer is used for disruption not really in the sense for actual dmg.

Banebow

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2005

[KoA] Knights of the Alliance

Me/

29 Oct 2005 at 06:13 - 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by entropy
But you said that axes outdamage a hammer which is why all I wanted to point out was that hammer is used for disruption not really in the sense for actual dmg. You'll notice I said they outdamage a hammer only when the monk does nothing. If he or she where to cast a heal or two, hammers would now be more effective, from the addition of disruption, so yes, I suppose I partly agree with you, that a hammer should be used for its disruptive properties.

However, this is not a topic about whether axes do more damage then hammers, or what hammers are best used for, I am sure there are many of those. It is a discussion about choosing a skill to use during a knockdown chain.

merciless

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Aug 2005

Sin Squad www.sinsquad.us

W/

10 Feb 2006 at 20:57 - 28

I prefer to use Holy Strike because it conserves energy when compared to Aftershock. By the way, those smiley faces are really annoying.

audioaxes

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

11 Feb 2006 at 10:00 - 29

Quote:
Originally Posted by merciless
I prefer to use Holy Strike because it conserves energy when compared to Aftershock. By the way, those smiley faces are really annoying. i prefer neither, waste of energy and attribute points
just replace your aftershock/holy strike with irresistable or mighty blow

QuixotesGhost

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2005

11 Feb 2006 at 14:41 - 30

Quote:
Originally Posted by audioaxes
i prefer neither, waste of energy and attribute points
just replace your aftershock/holy strike with irresistable or mighty blow

and hammer bash is so much better because omg it knocks me down with no extra damage im going to die Under Frenzy I can still chain Hammer Bash -> Crushing Blow -> Holy Strike ->
Irresitable Blow if I miss my Devestating Hammer. It's still a considerable spike.

Flyte

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Feb 2006

Canada

[ULGG]

11 Feb 2006 at 16:29 - 31

Quote:
Originally Posted by QuixotesGhost
I've always wondered where people use Mighty Blow in the chain considering it uses adrenaline, useing the skill puts you down one adrenaline so you need to space out one hit between it and any other adren skills. Plus you need to use it before you use Hammer Bash/Heavy Blow.

So do you use:

Mighty Blow -> Generic Hit or Energy-Based Attack -> (Start Knockdown Chain)

or

Devestating/Back Breaker/Earth Shaker -> Generic Hit or Energy-Based Attack -> Mighty Blow -> Generic Hit or Energy-Based Attack -> Hammer Bash/Heavy Blow

(SNIP!) I believe when you hit a foe with an adrenal skill, you get another point of adrenaline from it, making the generic hit worthless. I may be wrong though.

Devestating/Back Breaker/Earth Shaker -> Crushing Blow -> Mighty Blow -> Hammer Bash/Heavy Blow

Banebow

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2005

[KoA] Knights of the Alliance

Me/

11 Feb 2006 at 18:08 - 32

Flyte is correct, mighty blow will cost one adrenaline but will give you one when it hits.

audioaxes

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

11 Feb 2006 at 18:23 - 33

ya mighty blow is like a free hit, the addrenaline doesnt matter because its your addrenaline is going to get drain on heavy/hammer bash anyway

i think this is my favorite chain:

*frenzy*--->devastating->crushing->mighty->heavy->irresistable
very high damage plus its not going to kill your energy like as combos as you become a one-man spiker
in 8v8 you can just spam irresistable on their mesmer, cant evade, gets knocked down if guardian/aegis blocks it, then spike their open monk with the chain

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