An observation:
My main character is a W/N I do not belong to a guild so I am always looking for a PUG. Everywhere you go, the groups are looking for a specific group build, "we want 3 monks, 1 warrior, 2 eles and a necro etc..", we have all been there. I was at Thunderhead Keep recently and just was not getting in a group at all so I was about to grab henchies, and i noticed a lot of warrior messages "LFG". I quickly formed a group of six warriors and started the mission. We had a blast and easily took the mission.
Since then I have tried other missions just picking up any combo with Lina and Healer and the success rate really seems to depend not on the "combo" that you bring , but the cooperation of the individuals in it. Sometimes I think that if the combo does not look ideal and it looks like an "underdog" type of squad people seem to work a bit harder and are a bit more careful and the mission results are positive compared to groups I have entered thinking to myself, "this will be easy" and within 4 minutes there is total destruction of the PUG.
Do You really need that perfect PUG group?
jart
Aracos79
No, you really don't. PvE is simple enough that tha only real "requirement" is a good monk. Other than that, cooperation and communication are the other REAL requirements. Any group can be made to work if they work together and work as a team. I guarantee you that a group with good teamwork will always outperform that "perfect" group if their teamwork is lacking.
Charcoal Ann
that perfect team that people want is plain silly.
1 warrior? they will be hard pushed to take all the aggro AND will likely die (even with 3 monks)
3 monks? thats serious over live. 3 monks can't do anything that 2 can't do just as well. when you have 3 the heals start ovelapping and being wasted.
2 ele's? well i'm not sure i can fault the damage dealing potential of a pair of elementalists. though i think that a ranger or mesmer would be a better choice than a second ele.
necro? jolly good. never seen anyone (short of IWAY) advertise for a necro though.
that 'ideal' group would not handle a large mob of casters well at all.
1 warrior? they will be hard pushed to take all the aggro AND will likely die (even with 3 monks)
3 monks? thats serious over live. 3 monks can't do anything that 2 can't do just as well. when you have 3 the heals start ovelapping and being wasted.
2 ele's? well i'm not sure i can fault the damage dealing potential of a pair of elementalists. though i think that a ranger or mesmer would be a better choice than a second ele.
necro? jolly good. never seen anyone (short of IWAY) advertise for a necro though.
that 'ideal' group would not handle a large mob of casters well at all.
coolsti
Teamwork and cooperation is more important than the professions that make up the team. At least that has been my experience. Its actually been a lot of fun to go out with various types of groups. Went out with 3 Mesmers one time, another time with 3 rangers, and both times were successful and very entertaining. Monks for me are never a problem; if none of my friends with monk characters are playing with me, I take the henchies to fill out any healing and protection needs.
I will try to fill out a team with a particular profession only if I think that profession really might be very helpful and definitely is lacking, like if we have no warriors in the group I may look for one; if we have no Mesmers in the group but will be up against many spellcasters, I try to get one. Otherwise I like to take whatever as long as it is somewhat of a mix (although I would like to give a party with 5 rangers or 5 mesmers a try. On the other hand I have played in parties with 4 or 5 warriors and that I find rather boring).
I will try to fill out a team with a particular profession only if I think that profession really might be very helpful and definitely is lacking, like if we have no warriors in the group I may look for one; if we have no Mesmers in the group but will be up against many spellcasters, I try to get one. Otherwise I like to take whatever as long as it is somewhat of a mix (although I would like to give a party with 5 rangers or 5 mesmers a try. On the other hand I have played in parties with 4 or 5 warriors and that I find rather boring).
Kampfkeks
Aye.
If you see those folks scream for their third monk for their "ideal" partysetup... well... rest assured that if you wait another 10 minutes after they started you'll see them again in the outpost furiously flaming each other to death.
Besides taking henchmen... your only option is to form a group of your own just as you did. I really don't see why those folks allways insist on their typical layout, just because it has worked once. Those folks would probably die from heartattacks if they saw the layouts of the group i'm typically in.
Geomancer Tanks... Monktanks (Nope, no 5 superior Runes involved... but still mister UW 2000)... Necromancer Nuker... etc...
If you see those folks scream for their third monk for their "ideal" partysetup... well... rest assured that if you wait another 10 minutes after they started you'll see them again in the outpost furiously flaming each other to death.
Besides taking henchmen... your only option is to form a group of your own just as you did. I really don't see why those folks allways insist on their typical layout, just because it has worked once. Those folks would probably die from heartattacks if they saw the layouts of the group i'm typically in.
Geomancer Tanks... Monktanks (Nope, no 5 superior Runes involved... but still mister UW 2000)... Necromancer Nuker... etc...
Sanji
Some people just aren't comfortable being creative in Pick up Groups, especially since it comes to playing with complete strangers. I tend to be pretty loose when it comes to PvE, but I can understand someone wanting a solid, albeit a bit stale party build.
Daijdjan
My perfect PUG till now was a 6 Ranger group in The Wilds. My first thought after this mission was, these scarabs have never seen so much fire arrows 
We had a blast, rushing throught this mission and the bonus.
And for the "2 Monks are never enough" strategy...we are only 2 monks in our guild, one healer and my protter, we never have any problems keeping the squad alive. Most PUGs don't understand that reducing damage is as good as healing damage
And for the "2 Monks are never enough" strategy...we are only 2 monks in our guild, one healer and my protter, we never have any problems keeping the squad alive. Most PUGs don't understand that reducing damage is as good as healing damage
Auntie I
A couple of guildies and I were doing the Ruins of Surmia mission with a level20 Elementalist along for fun. I was a warrior, the other 2 guys were mesmers. I was the only one with a monk secondary. We were cruising along with the Elel nuking the crap out of everything when he had to go. Real Life was calling.
So there we were 2 mesmers and a tank to try and get suicidal Rurik to Nolani. We figured what the heck we'd give it a try. We took it slow and careful, I had some healing skills along and what do you know...We made it. I spent more time putting the occasional heal on one of the mesmers than Rurik. The Mobs just seemed to love him. They ignored Rurik completely.
Our main problem was that it took longer to kill stuff. Empathy works but it does take time. The Mesmers didn't have many direct damage skills equipped because we had the level 20 Ele along. We had tons of fun and it really proved to me that you don't need the perfect setup OR the maximum number of characters to complete a mission.
So there we were 2 mesmers and a tank to try and get suicidal Rurik to Nolani. We figured what the heck we'd give it a try. We took it slow and careful, I had some healing skills along and what do you know...We made it. I spent more time putting the occasional heal on one of the mesmers than Rurik. The Mobs just seemed to love him. They ignored Rurik completely.
Our main problem was that it took longer to kill stuff. Empathy works but it does take time. The Mesmers didn't have many direct damage skills equipped because we had the level 20 Ele along. We had tons of fun and it really proved to me that you don't need the perfect setup OR the maximum number of characters to complete a mission.
Shinsei
The word PUG reeks of imperfection. Stick to people you know and there's no problem.
Tactical-Dillusions
Yesterday i took my ranger on Thristy river in a pug that had all classes and only 1 monk.
My ranger was purely interrupt and healing with a mend ailmet for the blind.
I capped word of healing and we stormed the mission with only 1 death...an ele who got trapped behind a boss, lol.
Even the monk boss/priest died in seconds.
These holy trinity groups aint all that good! Grab all classes and see the rewards.
I was in a fissure group once and that group got all the way to the armourer without any deaths and the group comprised of 7 casters and 1 warrior.
Some groups just rock.
My ranger was purely interrupt and healing with a mend ailmet for the blind.
I capped word of healing and we stormed the mission with only 1 death...an ele who got trapped behind a boss, lol.
Even the monk boss/priest died in seconds.
These holy trinity groups aint all that good! Grab all classes and see the rewards.
I was in a fissure group once and that group got all the way to the armourer without any deaths and the group comprised of 7 casters and 1 warrior.
Some groups just rock.
quickmonty
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Shinsei
The word PUG reeks of imperfection. Stick to people you know and there's no problem.
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If we need to fill out a party we'll grab a few people in town, or maybe a healer henchy or two. Agree with the concept of good teamwork > ideal mix. Most important thing is having a team leader that knows what to do and party members who follow the plan.
KaPe
I rarely make parties at all, but when I do, I usually kick those who say:
"We NEED another warrior/monk/ele". No, we don't, if you think you know better than me who I want in my party - go make your own. My expierence with such people is very negative, their performance in PvE is usually bad, they perform badly in groups different from typical w/mo/e - hell, they don't seem to know what Wards&Wells are for.
However, I'm not about to say that "trinity" is bad. It's simple, effective and usually works. Of course, seeing 3*W/Mo is not a good sign and I avoid such groups.
"We NEED another warrior/monk/ele". No, we don't, if you think you know better than me who I want in my party - go make your own. My expierence with such people is very negative, their performance in PvE is usually bad, they perform badly in groups different from typical w/mo/e - hell, they don't seem to know what Wards&Wells are for.
However, I'm not about to say that "trinity" is bad. It's simple, effective and usually works. Of course, seeing 3*W/Mo is not a good sign and I avoid such groups.
Carinae
Often 'imperfect' groups work better than 'balanced' groups, because people pay more attention and try harder.
I capped Well of Power in Mineral Springs with a PUG of 8 Necros. We mopped the floor with the baddies, complete pwnage.
I capped Well of Power in Mineral Springs with a PUG of 8 Necros. We mopped the floor with the baddies, complete pwnage.
Pevil Lihatuh
My perfect PUG group: I pick up henchmen.
I've had some great Pugs, don't get me wrong. But the bad/abusive/downright dumb ones far outweigh them. I'll stick to friends and/or henchies.
But the perfect PUG group to me isn't necessarily one that can breeze through the mission, but one that can have fun even when everything goes pear shaped and we're sent back to the outpost. It's the whiners who immediately attempt to blame everyone for the fact we, quite simply, weren't good enough.
I've had some great Pugs, don't get me wrong. But the bad/abusive/downright dumb ones far outweigh them. I'll stick to friends and/or henchies.
But the perfect PUG group to me isn't necessarily one that can breeze through the mission, but one that can have fun even when everything goes pear shaped and we're sent back to the outpost. It's the whiners who immediately attempt to blame everyone for the fact we, quite simply, weren't good enough.
Dalliance Jade
Even monks aren't always necessary. Yesterday, a team of 3 rangers, 2 mesmers and a warrior completed 'The Wilds' and 'Bloodstone Fen' with only minimal effort. The only one with a monk secondary profession was the warrior. I agree that people tend to be more careful about aggro and staying alive when there is no monk.
Having said that, the best time I'd ever had with a six person PUG was a team with one of each profession. I don't recall what mission it was - it was one of the later ones and a fairly hard one at that - but we absolutely breezed right through it. There's something to be said for having a well balanced team.
Having said that, the best time I'd ever had with a six person PUG was a team with one of each profession. I don't recall what mission it was - it was one of the later ones and a fairly hard one at that - but we absolutely breezed right through it. There's something to be said for having a well balanced team.
Sekkira
There are so many people that truely believe that a certain class is needed to do the game. And there is so many times I've personally seen it proved wrong.
An example would be whether a healer is needed on the team. I disagree, someone else agrees. When I turn around and state why, they come around and say their argument holds water because without a healer, things are harder. Harder, yes. Impossible, no.
An example would be whether a healer is needed on the team. I disagree, someone else agrees. When I turn around and state why, they come around and say their argument holds water because without a healer, things are harder. Harder, yes. Impossible, no.
J1000
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Dalliance Jade
Even monks aren't always necessary.
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Dualinity
I think that good monks are neccesary, monks are often 1st target... the longer the target survives... the more time the other team has. To play monk is actually playing a totally different type, its based on suriviving longer than other teams monks :P
lishi
i managed to reach the big robot to sf with 1 war , 1 monk(me) , 1 ele
never got some particular probrem.
if you work well you dont even need a full group
never got some particular probrem.
if you work well you dont even need a full group
EternalTempest
Agree, some of the best pugs I've been have little to no communication, except maybe one person targeting and we all knew to give rest to restore energy.
I've been in good highly dysfunctional pugs where were were playfully and not so playfully / at each other throats most of the time but still owned the monsters.
50% of "ideal party" takes forever to form end up we being really bad and people leave after our 1st or 3rd encounter after someone gets killed.
I've been in bad pug's and I also don't understand people hating taking henchmen if we can't fill slots. Mixed people / hencmen parties can work out very well.
It's where we have an (usually w/mo but no always) that aggro everything or players that are abusive to others be it telling them how they should do there job or calling them noobs most of the time or those that leave because it's not going perfect cause the most problems.
(Edit) I think I have a higher tolerance for pugs, play Final Fantasy 11 for about 2 years where it's all pugs unless you are in a large linkshell or a "static" group.
I've been in good highly dysfunctional pugs where were were playfully and not so playfully / at each other throats most of the time but still owned the monsters.
50% of "ideal party" takes forever to form end up we being really bad and people leave after our 1st or 3rd encounter after someone gets killed.
I've been in bad pug's and I also don't understand people hating taking henchmen if we can't fill slots. Mixed people / hencmen parties can work out very well.
It's where we have an (usually w/mo but no always) that aggro everything or players that are abusive to others be it telling them how they should do there job or calling them noobs most of the time or those that leave because it's not going perfect cause the most problems.
(Edit) I think I have a higher tolerance for pugs, play Final Fantasy 11 for about 2 years where it's all pugs unless you are in a large linkshell or a "static" group.
Trinity
NECROS ROCK! Anyone who thinks otherwise, doesn't know any better. It doesn't matter what characters you take in a group, it depends on the idiot behind the keyboard. 
Loch
I remember one of the Dunes of Despair teams I had. Before this group, we all had crappy luck with bad teams. Our team was:
1 Ele
1 Mesmer
2 Rangers
2 Monks
We completely mopped the floor with the mission. The naysayers of the group were completely amazed.
Usually though, I have a hard time finding a decent group for the Ascension missions and Thunderhead Keep, especially with my latest char. I was getting so fed up that I decided to just try henching Thirsty River. It was eerily simple and algorithmic to win... I don't know what they're feeding those henchmen, but it's working. Same thing happened with Dunes, Elona, and THK.
So instead of stressing out over the desert missions/THK, I just hench them. For the other easier missions, I go with PuG's since I find hench groups to be pretty boring. To me, Guild Wars is most fun with real people.
1 Ele
1 Mesmer
2 Rangers
2 Monks
We completely mopped the floor with the mission. The naysayers of the group were completely amazed.
Usually though, I have a hard time finding a decent group for the Ascension missions and Thunderhead Keep, especially with my latest char. I was getting so fed up that I decided to just try henching Thirsty River. It was eerily simple and algorithmic to win... I don't know what they're feeding those henchmen, but it's working. Same thing happened with Dunes, Elona, and THK.
So instead of stressing out over the desert missions/THK, I just hench them. For the other easier missions, I go with PuG's since I find hench groups to be pretty boring. To me, Guild Wars is most fun with real people.
2_fingers
Seriously, a good monk, along with lina, can keep a good team alive with minimal deaths. The emphasis is on the word good though. If the team is good, there would not be much healings required. The healings are more of a last resort rather than actual help.
People experienced in pvp know that value of a good monk. Its the sucky monks that spoil the show.
Having more than 2 monks (1 protect/1 heal) is a waste of damage. U want a good team, try to consist of these functions (note, i didnt say classes)
1 tank
2 damage dealers
2 interupts/shutdowns (Crucial in later missions)
1 healer
1 Protection
1 Support charac
BTW, when i mean tanks, if you are a warrior, i assume that you are using -2 reduction, + dmg reduction knight's boots w at least a major absorbtion, and at least a major vigor somewhere. Alot of the warriors have no idea what is the ideal armour/gear set up. I've got a friend, whose warrior is pretty much undyable by attacks (not spells) - when he's in the party, i'd be healing other people rather than him because he just doesnt take damage.
I do not play pve anymore - but i do occassionally farm and pop in with guildies. And it amazes me at the number of idiots in the game. Oh well...
People experienced in pvp know that value of a good monk. Its the sucky monks that spoil the show.
Having more than 2 monks (1 protect/1 heal) is a waste of damage. U want a good team, try to consist of these functions (note, i didnt say classes)
1 tank
2 damage dealers
2 interupts/shutdowns (Crucial in later missions)
1 healer
1 Protection
1 Support charac
BTW, when i mean tanks, if you are a warrior, i assume that you are using -2 reduction, + dmg reduction knight's boots w at least a major absorbtion, and at least a major vigor somewhere. Alot of the warriors have no idea what is the ideal armour/gear set up. I've got a friend, whose warrior is pretty much undyable by attacks (not spells) - when he's in the party, i'd be healing other people rather than him because he just doesnt take damage.
I do not play pve anymore - but i do occassionally farm and pop in with guildies. And it amazes me at the number of idiots in the game. Oh well...
lg5000
that's what the game is all about, idiots.
Racthoh
You can take 7 henchmen and do Hell's Precipice. They will make mistakes constantly, you won't have hex or condition removal, but guess what you can make it through just fine.
I seriously think everyone with their first character should go through the game with henchmen to better themselves for the sake of future PUG idiots.
I seriously think everyone with their first character should go through the game with henchmen to better themselves for the sake of future PUG idiots.
Saerden
i still dont get this "PUG blablah cookie cutter blah blah necros rangers and mesmers rock blahblah creativity blahblah" - everything works in pve, even 8 necros. I had enough rangers that insisted on bringing rodgorts mark and mind burn (or traps - in regular teams), necros with touch skills thinking they do uber damage, and mesmers with conjure phantasm. Sure, i met E/N with flare. And most warriors are useless anyway. But what is the point? While everything works, some stuff works better. And at basic PUG level, trinity works best.
The trinity has one huge advantage: a bad ele is better then a bad mesmer/necro/ranger. A monk needs to be really stupid to reach a point where he is worse then some other healer of slightly less stupidity. warriors are an exception, thats why having more then 2 is usually a great way of getting into trouble.
Lots of people take pride in kicking people for not agreeing with their way to play the game - so why dont trinity groups have no right to ignore you and go for something that works without thinking it through first? If i want to play with my mind switched on, i play pvp.
The trinity has one huge advantage: a bad ele is better then a bad mesmer/necro/ranger. A monk needs to be really stupid to reach a point where he is worse then some other healer of slightly less stupidity. warriors are an exception, thats why having more then 2 is usually a great way of getting into trouble.
Lots of people take pride in kicking people for not agreeing with their way to play the game - so why dont trinity groups have no right to ignore you and go for something that works without thinking it through first? If i want to play with my mind switched on, i play pvp.
=HT=Ingram
IN my opinion no... I try to take people that are nice to play with. Not always the most experienced. hey they got to learn right??
In any case... I basically go with the consensus of the group. if more then 4 want someone out. I drop em. And sometimes not to my personal liking. but that's the way it is... I try to respect the group wishes...
I felt bad yesterday for dropping a few people that didn't know the Keg Farming technique for SF... the group wanted to do it, and many do not know it.. they were dumping them right and left for not knowing how to do it. but they asked me to join for a few runs so I just played along. Sometimes you just have to go with the flow to hold a guild together. lol
in any case... personally I think you can play through most of the game with JUST ABOUT any group as long as there is a sufficient mix of classes... But thats PvE... PvP and GvG are completly different stories...
In any case... I basically go with the consensus of the group. if more then 4 want someone out. I drop em. And sometimes not to my personal liking. but that's the way it is... I try to respect the group wishes...
I felt bad yesterday for dropping a few people that didn't know the Keg Farming technique for SF... the group wanted to do it, and many do not know it.. they were dumping them right and left for not knowing how to do it. but they asked me to join for a few runs so I just played along. Sometimes you just have to go with the flow to hold a guild together. lol
in any case... personally I think you can play through most of the game with JUST ABOUT any group as long as there is a sufficient mix of classes... But thats PvE... PvP and GvG are completly different stories...
Dualinity
lol, those players cant end the game with only henchman, dont be ridiculous.
There were also players who helped u when u were a PUG IDIOT...
There were also players who helped u when u were a PUG IDIOT...
2_fingers
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Saerden
The trinity has one huge advantage: a bad ele is better then a bad mesmer/necro/ranger. A monk needs to be really stupid to reach a point where he is worse then some other healer of slightly less stupidity. warriors are an exception, thats why having more then 2 is usually a great way of getting into trouble. |
Monks do not need to be stupid. all they need to do is bring huge cost spells and spam them and wonder why they dun have mana. Or have the same divine favour as a bloody warrior primary.
To even say that u can do anything in pve, i'd invite u to try the 8 enchantment build and use 8 eles to do it.
The trinity build breaks down in many missions. Simply because they are not equiped to handle them well.
Iere
Honestly, when I'm in a group headed to Fissure of Woe or UW or any other rather late-game quest, I will say that our group needs another monk.
I have had people mock me and say "What, you're not sure of your abilities?!"- it's just that I'd trust having another monk more than I'd trust my other party members not to mass aggro and get into a situation I can't help them with.
I was once in a party with five warriors. I was the only monk. I brought along plenty of low-cost heals, energy management, etc.-- but having a monk made them all RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOy and they ran off, drew lots of aggro, didn't have any self-heals, and died.
So no matter how egotistical this sounds, it's not my abilities I don't trust, it's the other party members. Now, this may be unique to monks saying "we need another monk", but whatever.
I prefer rather balanced teams, honestly, where everyone has a role- but I know that the best groups for finishing a mission are those that have fun, talk to each other, and are friendly.
I have had people mock me and say "What, you're not sure of your abilities?!"- it's just that I'd trust having another monk more than I'd trust my other party members not to mass aggro and get into a situation I can't help them with.
I was once in a party with five warriors. I was the only monk. I brought along plenty of low-cost heals, energy management, etc.-- but having a monk made them all RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOy and they ran off, drew lots of aggro, didn't have any self-heals, and died.
So no matter how egotistical this sounds, it's not my abilities I don't trust, it's the other party members. Now, this may be unique to monks saying "we need another monk", but whatever.
I prefer rather balanced teams, honestly, where everyone has a role- but I know that the best groups for finishing a mission are those that have fun, talk to each other, and are friendly.