Making 'Holy Veil' not be a better Remove Hex than Remove Hex

With the last update, Holy Veil has become the hex removal option of choice. It is cast on a target, and then immediately canceled to remove the top-most hex. In practice, it acts just like Remove Hex but instead of taking 2 seconds to cast, it only takes 1 second.

To remedy this skill imbalance, it would be preferable for Remove Hex to have a 1s cast time (concensus of posters in this thread).

This particular usage has all of the classic ear-marks of unbalance. First, we have a skill that is not used for it's primary effect (to double the casting duration of hex skills), but rather for an additional bonus that the skill has. Then, in order to trigger that bonus (hex removal) the caster does something non-intuitive: they cancel the long-lasting enchantment as soon as it goes up. The actual primary effect of the skill isn't even used. Further, when compared to a similar skill, Remove Hex, we find that this particular skill takes 1/2 of the casting time with almost an equivalent renewal. But besides this raw bonus, it has the side bonus of the primary effect of hex cast time doubling if one wishes to use it that way. In short, this skill is a far better remove hex than remove hex.

There are a few options I can think of:

1) don't make it a maintained enchantment, instead give it a duration of 20-30 seconds or so;

2) since just doubling the hex is inadequate benefit for the 1 pip draw, add another bonus that doesn't remove the hex immediately -- perhaps give the skill a 2..30% chance of immediately canceling any incoming hex.

3) drop the hex cast time doubling idea all together, replacing it with something like "hexes targeted at the enchanted have a 5...45% shorter duration".

On a related note; I'm still unaware of anyway to cancel a maintained enchantment via the keyboard. This has put people like me at a serious competitive dis-advantage. I stay away from the mouse for medical reasons, and I only use the keyboard in PvP. Up till this last update, I was a very competitive healer in PvP; but since I cannot effectively "abuse" Holy Veil like the rest of the healers, I am put at a competitive disadvantage. If the skill doesn't get fixed -- please provide a keyboard shortcut which allows me to cancel the maintained enchantment of my choice. Thanks.

Change #1: I origonally quoted the cast time for remove hex as 3s vs 1s for Holy Veil. This was incorrect, for some reason I thought Holy Veil had a .25 cast time and I was adding in the after-cast. Remove Hex is a 2s cast, and Holy Veil is a 1s cast, giving you a 1s difference. This 1s is a huge difference; my argument remains the same.

Change #2: Added a note to reflect suggestions by multiple posters in this thread that the solution would be to reduce the cast time of Remove Hex to 1s so that it isn't subject to routine interruptions.

Remove hex. 2 second cast time, 7 second recharge time. Holy veil. 1 sec cast time, 10 second recharge. Holy veil removes one every 11 seconds, Remove hex, every 9 seconds.

That doesn't make Remove Hex better then Holy Veil. 2 seconds in which you don't heal, get attacked and can be interrupted isn't my personal favourite for hex removal.

Was remove hex ever the hex remover of choice? It always seemed to be rather dismal spell to me, the casting duration is just too long, a mesmer with 0 fast casting could drop two cover hexes on before you are able to get rid of the primary. Smite/convert hex are much more interesting choices. Smite is basically the same as holy veil is now, except it does a little bit of damage and has a slightly longer recharge time. Convert costs more energy, but clears all hexes. Let's face it, prior to this patch, nobody ever ran holy veil. Doubling hex casting time simply isn't something that is worth investing energy into. And it's a lot of energy, if you add it up.

I would still love to have a hotkey that allows you to cancel a maintained enchantment though, but I guess in the interim, you could always look at trying to fit contemplation of purity or a similar skill in your build.

Doesn't really matter though, because, as we were discussing elsewhere, most monks apparently don't bother removing hexes anyway.

Rico

Remove Hex is obviously meant for a Mesmer/Monk to take advantage of.

Convert Hexes as well (but primary Monks stil use it because it's so powerful).

Some skills are clearly meant to be used on a secondary. Look at the Hammer R/W as example. Without access to stoneskin gauntlets, he can't benefit from increased knockdown time. But look, there's conviniently a skill with a set, long knockdown duration; Backbreaker. A skill that's very sub par on a Warrior primary, who can use stoneskin gauntlets to increase the duration on a much lower adrenaline Devastating Hammer or Earthshaker.

Or take Inspired Hex, it's great way to break Diversion, it accomplishes both hex removal and gains the user energy, something Monks are most in need of, not primary Mesmers.

There are skills in the game clearly meant to shine in combination with a different primary class than the one they're assigned to.

It's still only one second longer than holy veil. I'm not really saying remove is better, they're just about equal.

After the update when I noticed it in the patch notes I gave Holy Veil a try. I used both benefits of the spell, though there was a lot of hexing so I usually ended up doing the remove portion of it. As a remove hex spell, take my word for it... Remove Hex is better.

It's a short cast time, yes, but removing it takes another second at least, due mostly to the fact that the enchantment removal interface isn't very responsive. Then there's that recast time. Bleach! You want every second, you know.

And the fact that it doubles the cast time of hexes seems nice on paper, but in practice it doesn't work very well. At least, not in PvE. The difference is hardly noticable and they still end up hexed anyway. A lot of hexes have very fast cast times to begin with, so doubling them doesn't do much. On top of that it has a mana degen penalty. If anything I'd say the spell still sucks, even after the update.

I think they should make it a protection spell, make it time-based (5-15 seconds, say) and make it a group effect spell. Then it'd be great. You don't even really need the hex removal part of it, though if that remained, it'd be a hex equivelant to Aegis, which would be nice but not too overpowered in my opinion.

Remove hex was used prior to the patch because of the recharge time. Compared to smite hexes 15, and inspired's 20.. it was common for one monk to carry this for spammability.

I agree that holy veil now replaces this skill completely.

Remove hex should just be given a 1 sec cast time. That would balance this.

balance as in make holy veil retarded again, and remove hex usefull

i think a better balance would be if they tied it to the prot attribute, and had it be "for 1 to x seconds hexes take twice longer to cast etc, when this ends remove one hex"

that way it would be useable at 0 prot if it had like a 1 second duration, and the secondary effect would still be useable too at a higher level in protection

actually this would make me agree with the op. decreasing the duration of hexes is a bit overpowered imo since it would seriously decrease the effectiveness of water eles

Holy veil would still be superior in a lot of ways.

By prebuffing before a fight or duing, you can make sure to get the first hex off and still be able to cast it again right way.

It has great synergy with contemplation of purity, which is the best counter against the frequent multiple migraine twitch mesmer builds currently used.

The double cast time on the opponents would make interupting by mesmers and rangers much easier.



Remove hex would have quicker recharge and remove quicker because it wouldn't require a click on the maintain icon. That would offset the bonuses holy veil would still have.

but at least it would be somewhat more difficult to pull this off, especially if it were a 5 second duration at 16 prot

you could... make it be 2-5 seconds. yea idk... its kinda broken right now, but then so is that 3 migraine mesmer build...

I think holy veil's fine now, I just think remove hex needs to be tweaked as veil makes it obsolete.

I never use Remove Hex because it is just to easy to interrupt, especially with like Migraine and Arcane Conondrum etc. Anyways Holy Veil is my new fav counter cause I cast it on myself and then get rid of it as soon as Migraine comes on :P

i ussually don't use veil for the removal. i use it for the 2x casting time. you can remove with other hex removal that is just fine. negating fast casting or doubling the already high cast time on necro hexes is priceless. usually use it with a w/mo since they don't really need energy in the first place and back it up with purge sig.

Use veil then remove hex so you dont get hexed out of your mind.

dont like it because people use it for it's secondary effect and not it's primary huh? what about aftershock, nobody wants it just for its primary effect?

This is a totaly bull shit arguement, remove hex cost 5 energy and can be used more often, Holy Viel cost 5 energy and a maintenance cost, same energy just like remove hex, but pay a maintenance cost. Furthermore, remove hex doesn't remove the hex in 1 second, it is activated in 1 second, it only removes a hex after it has been discontinued, so it doesn't remove hexes within 1 second compared to 3 seconds. Third, the main difference between remove hex and holy viel is that remove hex is designed to slow hexes, if your trying to stop a hex then you have to use it quickly, just like protection magic, it is ment to land before the enemies spell. 1 second is a long shot from interceeding mesmer spells, but it is reasonably fast.

I get tired of hearing every newb scream bloody unbalance every time something is changed just because they don't enjoy the improvement for what it is worth. Holy Viel cost more on a totaly different scale, it has to be cast and discontinued to remove a hex, and it is designed to be activated before the enemy puts they hex on a teammate, as well as remove the hex after it has landed.

Hate it if you want, but don't try to start a picket on a false unbalanced.

There are 3 factors: energy, cast-time, and recharge.

In the energy department I think you have to wait 3 seconds before the 1pip degen costs you an extra point of energy. Any good monk that is proficient with a mouse can probably cancel that enchantment before the 3 seconds strikes; if not, its only 6en instead of 5en. Not a huge difference.

For recharge time, yes, it's 7s instead of 10s. This, in my humble opinion isn't that big of a difference. It's not double or anything like that.

The big difference is in cast-time: Remove Hex is 2s, Holy Veil is 1s. That 1s cast time difference, when the energy and recharge are effectively similar is an absolutely huge difference.

* it is twice as long -- twice

* Any ranger or warrior can interrupt a 2s skill since their "swing" is 1.5s and 1.33s or so respectively. A 1s skill is much much harder to interrupt; the difference here isn't minor, it's the difference between "mabye" you can get it, and "you have to be sleeping to miss".

* In a game, that 1s is time that you're letting a warrior get one more swing at you before you can continue to strife, etc. That's a good 30 points of damage -- assuming they don't bother using a skill for that hit.

The skinny is quite clear. Holy Veil _is_ a better Remove Hex than Remove Hex. It is certainly not, as you so eloquently put it, "bull shit". Further, argument is not spelled "arguement" (sic).

We are not talking about the use of Holy Veil being used as-intended, we are talking about it being put up and immediately canceled. How it is designed to be activated is completely irrelevant to the discussion. The fact that it isn't being used as designed is a clear indication that something is up.

So you open with an insult, fail to provide a coherent rebuttal, and then end with an ad hominem attack? Brilliant. Welcome to my ignore list.

You quoted my entire post (can't bother to quote relevant sections?) yet obviously didn't read it. Welcome to my ignore list.

Twice as long to cast, same time to remove a hex, your arguement is stupid, only extreme players are going to cast Holy Viel and remove it in less then 2 seconds, alot of times when your trying to remove an enchantment it takes 3 or 4 clicks.

The best players will get a mear fraction of a second faster hex removal, they have to activate it and deactivate it to remove a hex, and it has to be done before the hex to impare the cast time of the enemies hex.

Your ranting like a redneck with no real cause, well rant all you want because it is balanced, and your not going to pursuade the developers with false and unfounded bias.

If you expected a common hex remove skill to compare to an advanced mid game one your silly, and expecting all moves to have equal effecitiveness is fruitless.

Bahamut, please stop sounding stupid.

I can drop a Holy Veil in about a fourth of a second, and I can do it while casting something else at the same time, its not hard. And also learn to spell.

IxChel, a lot of what you say makes sense, but I don't feel the skill is unbalanced, even though it renders another somewhat obsolete. For one, Holy Veil is still a very situational spot hex removal. Its not like the old Putrid Explosion which made every other corpse skill useless. Holy Veil simply just makes remove bad. Convert, Inspired, and Smite Hex all still have their uses in other places. Also, Holy Veil causes no major game problems, hex removal simply got a buff, which I felt was a good thing. Its not as if the uber holy veil now makes power hexing unviable. Lastly, Remove Hex still has uses. Granted, those uses are very limited since Holy Veil is so often better, but I think since Veil is not better in every way than Remove Hex, so there is still a window of usage for the latter skill.

I'd like to conclude by saying that using a skill not 'for what its intended' isn't necessary a sign of imbalance. Consume Corpse nowadays is primarily used for Corpse denial rather than health or energy gain, which I think is perfectly fine. Also, there are always going to be certain skills which are bad or practically useless, just look at Dwarven Battle Stance, essentially a crappy Choking Gas. Its not necessarily something that ruins the competitive landscape.

I agree with IxChel, there is a problem with Holy Veil now.

I think that your solution 1) or to make the casting time of Remove Hex 1-1.5 seconds would be preferrable. I don't really see the logic in that hex removal should be an easily interruptable (after the update any skill which takes more than 1 second to cast is easily interruptable) skill.

I tried taking Remove Hex into arena yesterday, and yes, it got interrupted about half the time.

Hex removal isn't an easily interruptable skill. Hex removal on a seven-second recharge is an easily interruptable skill. That's why skills like Smite Hex, Inspired Hex, and now Holy Veil exist.

I agree with IxChel, though.

That's the way I feel too.

The impression I'm getting is that you all seem to think Holy Veil is pretty good in PvP. I don't PvP at all and I think the spell sucks compared to Remove Hex.

In PvE it's better to have a hex removal that you can cast multiple times in rapid succession. The more rapid the better. You also don't want it to cause mana degen for any length of time, as some monks (such as mine) typically maintain lots of enchantments at once, and every little extra degen hurts, even if it is brief. Getting interrupted isn't as big a deal because you can counter that by simply keeping out of sight while you work.

The way we can interpret the spell's intended use is that it's supposed to be an enchantment that helps punish hexing spellcasters and you can removed it once the hex is there. So it has two very different uses in one spell.

It's a little confusing that they chose to keep the cast time at 1 second. Enchantments usually are applied before battle and don't really need a short cast time. Some are good for mid-battle casting, but slowing hexes down? I don't see how that's a mid-battle sort of spell. I think as a mid-battle enchantment spell it should be more like 10 mana cost and it removes a hex when applied, not when removed. As it is now it's pretty ambiguous as to how the spell is supposed to really be used. Thus we have people using it in counter-intuitive ways.

It's a strange spell. It doesn't have one purpose. It doesn't even really have a duel purpose, as you tend to either use one function or the other, and not both.

I use both functions of Holy Veil in PVP.

Hexes are already still way overpowered due to the limited ways to remove them. Leave Holy Veil as is. Having it on the skillbar is one of the few viable ways in the game to counter hexes decently. Even then, if it's the only hex removal skill on one player's skillbar, then he's not going to be effective at removing hexes. And using it takes a lot of micro time away from other things; having to doubleclick on that little tiny icon constantly in the midst of a hectic battle is a skill that should be respected. One player having to waste at least two skillbar slots just to be able to remove hexes effectively is already enough of a detriment without nerfing those spells even more.

Another thing: removing Holy Veil off yourself vs. a good hexing team is a really big tradeoff. Once you take it off, then chances are you will be Migrained again shortly after (which is a huge pain in the butt!), followed by a whole whackload of other hexes on you at the same time, and hence be unable to get Veil back up again without a ton of effort. So with Veil on, your only choice is: remove Veil and very probably screw yourself by doing so, or keep Veil up in spite of all the hexes on you, knowing that to take it down is just going to make things even worse. Having to make choices like this adds to the depth of Guild Wars. Nerfing Holy Veil would remove the choice from this equation, hence another reason why a nerf is a bad idea.

Holy Veil is fine. If they want to buff Remove Hex as well, that would also be good. Just don't be nerfing Holy Veil.

It's called the 'customize' option......... move it to someplace near the party screen and I think you can even increase the size of the button. Shouldn't be that hard.

Exactly why I think it would work better if it removed the hex first, then provided the hex slowing benefit. It actually works as a reasonable counter to hexes in some form. You remove a hex and hinder more hexes from being put on the person in one swoop.

The depth of Guild Wars you speak of is not about bringing skills that only provide you with lose-lose dilemmas. Many of the skills in this game have a benefit and a penalty, but the penalty is always acceptable in some way in the right situations. In other words the skills are context sensitive. The depth of GW is that you have to know when to use a skill and when not to. This spell, as it is, isn't great contextually. It temps you with one benefit (removing a hex) and temps you with another (extending hex cast times). Either way it's doing something, but you don't get the benefit of both at the same time, which makes this a very peculiar spell. The only spell like it, to my knowledge.

I'm not saying the spell is useless, but it is pretty unintuitive. And not in a good way, IMO. It really acts like two separate spells. Not a double-benefit, but a two uncomplimentary spells.

By "it" I assume you're talking about the maintained enchantment bar? Clicking on the icon is not the problem. It's the responsiveness of the interface. If you simply double-click, it will only take it off half the time. Sometimes I just rapidly click it until I see it come off. When doing that I occasionally take off more enchantments than I wanted to accidentally.

This issue is actually the reason I came on this forum. More or less.

I too noticed that the enchantments don't always come off when I doubleclick the small icon.

And even customizing the interface to move the icon closer to the party window is not a good solution. Because although it does save some time, it's still a waste of time having to drag the mouse back and forth that far each time you want to remove a Veil. In the heat of a tough battle, spending a half-second getting off a heal spell to an ally being spiked can save his life. Or that half-second can be spent dragging the cursor up and down to the Veil icon, hence forcing the ally to die needlessly.

One thing OP of this thread is right about, is that there should definitely be a mappable key to remove maintained enchantments with one keystroke. After all, there is nothing fun about having to struggle with an interface or having said interface be needlessly cumbersome.

Ok. There seems to be a growing concensus that people like Holy Veil as is and would prefer this skill imbalance to be addressed by setting the cast time of Remove Hex at 1s. This works for me.

Yeah, I can definitely /signed on buffing Remove Hex casting time down to 1s.

I think the 'used as intended' is a little misleading here. It's original form of course involved no hex removal and it was a skill that was never going to show up on any competent player's skill bar. They did add a hex removal component to it however, and saying now that it isn't being used as intended is incorrect IMO. It's not the same skill it once was, so of course it isn't used in the same way (which was not at all before).

I still don't understand how shatter hex needed a nerf, can someone explain that to me?

I know it was huge damage and a huge radius.. but it requires you to be hexed, and is very expensive. It's a skill that requires the other team to do something to gain any benefit from, so I don't see why it wouldn't have a large damage and radius. It's not like you can base a build around planning on getting a bunch of hexes on your team, running in.. and 'spiking' with multiple hex removals.

Does anyone carry this on their bar now? I know I don't.

I haven't played my mesmer in a while, but can definately agree with you about Shatter Hex. That spell was just fine as it was. The mesmer doesn't exactly have the best of damage spells anyway. I realize their style of play is the dagger, not the sword, but every now and then a mesmer needs to do damage. It's modest too! Why nerf?

On the subject of nerfing anti-Hex spells, what puzzles me is why they nerfed Hexbreaker - which absolutely did not need a nerf at all.

I personally never used Shatter Hex all that much hence I am not familiar enough to comment on that skill specifically, but seeing you guys complain about it being unjustly nerfed does not surprise me since they also nerfed Hexbreaker for no reason.


It's kinda seeming like the devs have a pro-hexing bias or something; and want hexes to being a lot easier for enemies to inflict upon your team than they are to counter on your own team.

I vote to unnerf Hexbreaker and put it to exactly as it was before it got nerfed.