AI's super reflexes

MaglorD

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

Anyone think AI skill interrupting should be toned down? Why should AI interrupting be more efficient than players due to their super reflexes and because they're controlled by the cpu. Perhaps Anet should show down their ability to interrupt so it's more like how humans play.

OTOH, it makes them more challenging. But still...

Lasareth

Lasareth

Aquarius

Join Date: Jun 2005

Somewhere between Boardwalk and Park Place

The only problem I have is with hostile NPC interrupting is their ability to interrupt someone who isn't even their target with the precision that you mentioned. Humans may have fast reflexes, but there's no way they can monitor all 8 enemies at once and interrupt whoever casts...

Shinomori

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Sep 2005

Insane Midget Posse [IMp]

Me/E

I can because of my super leet hacks.

But actually, I agree. I've seen some of the henchies interrupt SO WELL. It makes me sad. I want to become Mr. Roboto so I can be leet like the henchmen.

(Can you spot the sarcasm? )

/signed in all seriousness

MaglorD

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lasareth
The only problem I have is with hostile NPC interrupting is their ability to interrupt someone who isn't even their target with the precision that you mentioned. Humans may have fast reflexes, but there's no way they can monitor all 8 enemies at once and interrupt whoever casts...
Haha had that happen to me too. It's cheating I say. They monitor all enemies and switch targets with ease and interrupt too.

Pik uR BuM

Pik uR BuM

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Oct 2005

aussieland

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaglorD
Haha had that happen to me too. It's cheating I say. They monitor all enemies and switch targets with ease and interrupt too.
its NPC...what did you expect... there just too fast for you...

simple: interrupt them before they interrupt you...hehe

Stayfrosty

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2005

Marduke guild

lol at the above post.... it does need to get tones down, theres a few times ive had 1/4 second cast spells interrupted which is reddiculous

Charcoal Ann

Charcoal Ann

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2005

In a World of BADGERS!

Eternal Flame Brotherhood

pah! i've had fast-cast 16 and used Orison of healing.
thats (theoretically) an 1/8th of a second cast time. and he interrupted it!

I hate Rockshots.

lishi

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jul 2005

they interupt are already toned down, they are computer controlled player ...

if dev what they will have 100% interupt change even for RoF.

Krazax

Krazax

Academy Page

Join Date: Sep 2005

I dunno if that's as annoying as the coordinated aborting tactics the computer uses. Lemme explain. You go up against multiple aborters, say 4, you try and cast 8 spells/skills in a row, all 8 get aborted one after another.

Now we all know for a fact that each of those mobs doesn't have 8 aborts. So what's happening? Each one takes a turn at aborting your spell/skill, and they cycle their aborts. Like the retarded floating eyeballs in the desert. First one aborts you, then conjure phantasms you while the next aborts your next spell. And on and on it goes into coder absurdity. :P

THAT'S what irritates me. Is that the computer can perpetually keep you aborted by perfectly cycling their frigging aborts and distracting shots and crap like that. And they don't just do it effectively, they do it PERFECTLY.

I don't mind the 4 aborters targeting 4 different casters (even if they aren't fighting that specific target) and aborting them as they can, but I DETEST at the HIGHEST LEVELS when you have nothing but henchs, and all the mobs abort JUST YOU over and over again.

Gimmie a break.

What's just as bad is how they all seem to have 16 in fast casting themselves. I love this especially as a fast casting spell aborting mesmer. As one I know there are just spells that cast too fast to be aborted by human means, unless you spam your aborts on a target hoping to hit just as they start casting it.

Who does that? Noone. You wait for the cast and then you abort it. That's how it works. Yet so many spells zoom by too quickly to be aborted by us, yet the computer does it with relative ease. Want an example? Conjure Phantasm. I can't abort that on a mob if I wait to see it casting. It's' too fast. Yet they make me abort it regularly.

Again, Gimmie a break.

Sister Rosette

Sister Rosette

Lady Fie

Join Date: Aug 2005

Sapporo

Tha Skulls [Ts]

D/W

Hell yes.

/FREAKING SIGNED.

toastgodsupreme

toastgodsupreme

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2005

United States

Me/

On one hand, one can argue the above. Which I agree with. That the NPCs are aborting casts on targets that they themselves are not targetting at the time (let's take a wind rider shooting his purple balls at a warrior then manages to abort your RoF, stick conjure on you, then go back to pushing it's balls in the warrior's face).
Even worse, as Krazax described, they chain abort you perfectly. Again, whether you're their target a half second before that chain started doesn't matter. They work together perfectly to keep you locked down while still managing to fire upon different targets.


Now on the other hand, one will say they need this since the AI doesn't have the tactical advantages us human players have (well... SOME of us human players). That these small quirks are some of the only advantages they have or we'd be far too powerful.

Lavendange19

Lavendange19

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jun 2005

Paris / France but New Zealand from December

Les Bronz??s (BrZ)

E/R

/ signed

but just take a concentration signet (ele) or mantra of concentration (Me). See how funny it is to see all their interrupts fail and to cast your météor shower which will crush these retards who won't move as fast as they cast ^^ ... In fact they won't move at all.
AI is strange

Plague

Plague

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2005

N/E

You already crush them. They're AI. Why waste inventory space to pamper to their needs when their cheating could just be stopped?

Perishiko ReLLiK

Perishiko ReLLiK

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Feb 2005

Divine Guardians of the Soul (Soul)

Mo/E

Who would want such a thing... i mean, sure it's annoying as hell, but making an easy game even easier? Are you insane, or is it drugs?

If they happened to figure out a way to do this, they'd still have to figure out how to get them to move together out of aoe's, pull humans,call and follow targets (unless it's protected, in which switch to another monk/weak armor character), ect... It's not going to happen.

Basic common sense says, you can beat the crap out of the ai, who cares if they have ultra interruption abilities... Their other abilities suck ass. Even the ability to interrupt anyone anytime doesn't make up for their flaws.

Barinthus

Barinthus

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Sep 2005

California

(TRUE)

R/Me

I agree with perishiko. leave ai the way they are. i dont want the game made too easy

Mercury Angel

Mercury Angel

Avatar of Gwen

Join Date: Apr 2005

Wandering my own road.

Having played my characters prior to the buff, I didn't realize what a nuisance the Forgotten Bows in the desert had become with Concussion Shot's attack speed being changed to interrupt speed.

Have you ever been consistently dazed out there? It is a royal pain. They Concussion Shot you with 100% accuracy, and it recharges in 10 seconds, if they manage to daze your condition remover, they can easily daze 3-5 people at a time in your party with 2 bows in the opposing team.

It's nice that they have such skill and timing, it makes them perform better. But I hate this as much as I hate when they overload the enchantment removal in some areas of the game; By stacking so many of the same type of monster around, they can literal shutdown or debilitate a certain aspect of the game in its entirety

Facing 6 devourers with distracting shot, I've had EVERY skill attempt I'd made interrupted. I had to run out of the battle, recover, and position myself such that only 2 had access to me with Distracting Shot. And of course, they got 2 of my spells easily.

Edit; And yes, I know what anti-interrupts are.
However, Glyph of Concentration is easy to interrupt, and so much fun when it happens, Mantra of Concentration recharges too slowly while both it and Mantra of Resolve require you to have mesmer secondary and purchase it.

Another thing that comes to mind of annoying overkill is knockdown spammers like monsters with Giant Stomp, particularly because knockdown interrupts go through anti-interrupt skills, and the only anti-knockdowns are from the warrior profession. At least it takes 2 seconds to cast, and harms+knocks down their allies as well.

tigernz

tigernz

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jun 2005

Alberta, Canada

Servants of Fortuna

N/Me

Yes it's a pain, but using the logic of slowing their interrupts to humanlike reaction time you would also have to argue for enemies not casting through backfire/diversion/mark of subversion/soul leech etc and not attacking through empathy/spiteful/price of failure etc.

I like my enemies how they are: stupid but with godlike reflexes

Mysterial

Mysterial

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2005

Servants of Fortuna

E/Me

Huh... last time I went fighting interrupting monsters they missed with a reasonable number of interrupts, especially if you start casting when they're casting something else. I didn't find anything wrong with that.

I also agree with the people who say the AI has enough problems and is already too easy to kill - let's not remove one of the few things they're actually good at.

Sereng Amaranth

Sereng Amaranth

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2005

The Amazon Basin [AB]

/notsigned

This isn't Marioland.

A NERD1989

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2005

Elite Black Ops

W/Mo

/SIGNED

im sick of scorpions interupting me spells that taker liek 1 second to cast this is absurd

Lagg

Lagg

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2005

W/

/not signed

Keep the AI enemies challenging, please. If you want to fix something, fix them from randomly breaking from the tanks or materialising in the middle of your party out of nowhere (especially in UW).

Barinthus

Barinthus

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Sep 2005

California

(TRUE)

R/Me

*shrug* learn to be adaptive. If you know a certain area has a lot of monsters that can shut down your enchantments...

guess what you could do? Don't being enchantments! Bring something else.

Like Sun Tzu would say, a battlefield is a fluid environment, you have to be adaptive in order to emerge victorous.

MSecorsky

MSecorsky

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2005

So Cal

The Sinister Vanguard

Me/

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaglorD
Anyone think AI skill interrupting should be toned down? Why should AI interrupting be more efficient than players due to their super reflexes and because they're controlled by the cpu. Perhaps Anet should show down their ability to interrupt so it's more like how humans play.

OTOH, it makes them more challenging. But still...
Here's a thought... treat them like you would interrupters in the PvP world.

Reality can be annoying.

Zakarr

Zakarr

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

Finland

/not signed

Part of the fun is to learn to be adaptive. You can solo giants at the desert and they all use giant stomp. Just time your skill usage and you don't even need any anti-knockdown skill. Maybe if you make your enchants last longer, you have more time to take all the giant stomps before something important wears out.

Mesmer interrupts can be wasted by taking aggro and spam low energy and fast recharge skills. Those "eye things" use Cry of Frustration skill and it has 20 seconds recharge. They usually don't cast it again because they waste their energy to do other mesmer skills. If they have other interrupt skills, those skills are usually spell interrupters and warriors/rangers can use their own skills with no problems. Maybe try to drain their energy too so they can do nothing?

Ranger interrupts must hit so use block/evade skills to have much smaller chance to being interrupted. Concussion shot eats lots of energy so Bows don't usually use it again if you are attacking to them because they waste their energy to other things. Low energy skill spamming helps here too. I have soloed these annoying things and dazed is not a problem for casters if no one hits you so time your skills right. Knockdowns for example give you some time to cast while being dazed.

Hodor

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2005

Federated Communist Uber Korps

/signed

Enchanted Bows can get off an interupt faster then a bow can reload.

/wait for Bow to fire, cast healing hands 0.25 sec cast. Bang, interupted. Bows cycles 2-2.7 sec refire :\

Instant reaction I can handle, not playing by the same rules is not on. At least constrain them to the same rules we play by.

Calnaion Blackhawk

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: May 2005

England , Wiltshire

[mB] Mental Block

E/

/signed for the love of god, cry of frustration by kins is NOT a toy!

Mysterial

Mysterial

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2005

Servants of Fortuna

E/Me

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hodor
/signed

Enchanted Bows can get off an interupt faster then a bow can reload.

/wait for Bow to fire, cast healing hands 0.25 sec cast. Bang, interupted. Bows cycles 2-2.7 sec refire :\

Instant reaction I can handle, not playing by the same rules is not on. At least constrain them to the same rules we play by.
Might want to go check out real rangers, because they can do that too. Or go play a ranger yourself. Go shoot at something and immediately after the arrow starts flying hit Distracting Shot. Guess what? Instant fire, ignoring your bow's refire.

IxChel

IxChel

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Apr 2005

http://sof-guild.com/

Servants of Fortuna

Mo/R

I agree that the AI logic to switch targets solely for an interrupt isn't playing fair (else, the UI needs to allow us humans to swap targets faster and see what ever foe is doing at the same . Further, adding a slight .25s delay (what the very best human would have) is probably fair.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charcoal Ann
pah! i've had fast-cast 16 and used Orison of healing thats (theoretically) an 1/8th of a second cast time. and he interrupted it! I hate Rockshots.
At 16 fast-casting will cut your casting time by 50%, so that's .5 second for your Orison. That said, Distracting Shot has a .25 sec activation, and with Read The Wind, a .25s flight time. So, with "perfect" reflexes it is possible.

Vilaptca

Vilaptca

Pre-Searing Vanquisher

Join Date: Jun 2005

Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]

Maybe they've memorized casting animations, rate the threat of your spell and then interrupt the one that they feel can harm them the most...

Kool Pajamas

Kool Pajamas

Forge Runner

Join Date: Aug 2005

Maryland

Mage Elites [MAGE]

If they do this, then they should make the AI smarter so that they dont stand in fire storms and other AoE spells.

RoF

RoF

Academy Page

Join Date: Aug 2005

My hammer is stained with the blood of countless assassins.

We Eat Pancakes [Yumy]

W/

I hate Rockshots...

/signed

MSecorsky

MSecorsky

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2005

So Cal

The Sinister Vanguard

Me/

Nah... they should give the buggers a "blackout shot", which, if it hits, disables all your skills for 5 secs.

Bwaa haa haa haaaaaa

superbinnie

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Sep 2005

/not signed

Distracts are one of the ways you prevent overfarming with certain enchantments, after all. You'll notice many of the areas that seem ripe for heavy harvest have a distract built in, or at least a knockdown.

Plus, this game is so easy already for PvE. The main challenge of it all is teammate competency, don't you think? Interrupts can be worked around, but that level of coordination doesn't happen in most pugs, just like a lot of other things.

That being said, some things are ridiculous and could stand looking at; I hate Ice Imps.

Vilaptca

Vilaptca

Pre-Searing Vanquisher

Join Date: Jun 2005

Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kool Pajamas
If they do this, then they should make the AI smarter so that they dont stand in fire storms and other AoE spells.
If they do that, then they should also change the builds for some of the enemies. Like I don't know...make it so not every enemy Mesmer in the game has Conjure Phantasm. Maybe make the enemy builds a little more diverse...add a little variety to the spells.

toastgodsupreme

toastgodsupreme

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2005

United States

Me/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vilaptca
If they do that, then they should also change the builds for some of the enemies. Like I don't know...make it so not every enemy Mesmer in the game has Conjure Phantasm. Maybe make the enemy builds a little more diverse...add a little variety to the spells.
Indeed, set up some system where when a certain type of enemy spawns, they have say, 12 skills that could possibly be given to each of the enemies. Each single enemy instance (ie. 1 wind rider in a group of 10) will randomly be assigned 8 out of those 12 available skills. This is done for each member of that group. This way they're not all carrying the exact same build.





You can also do this with attribute points. For example:
Wind Rider - Mesmer
Domination can be anywhere from 10-15
Inspiration can be anywhere from 7-12
Illusion can be anywhere from 10-15
Fast Casting can be anywhere from 5-10

Then set the limit of available points that can be used and say that at least one attribute must be at LEAST 12.

So in a group of 2 Wind Riders, one may have 12 Dom and 8 Fast Cast while the other Wind Rider has 12 Inspiration and 4 Fast Cast and 3 Illusion.

Edit: Yeah, I fcked up here because I didn't follow the rules above on minimums, but the point I was trying to make is clear I believe.

This could provide some very interesting fights because they MAY have enchant removal, or maybe just one of them has enchant removal. etc

carnivore

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2005

W/

i agree, just simply because i know the rockshots are cheating.

on my warrior i can cast healing hands out of the blue, no other spells before it, and a rock shot can hit it with a distracting shot.

now lets go over this. Healing Hands activation time: 1/4 Distracting Shot activation time: 1/2....see something wrong here?

Krazax

Krazax

Academy Page

Join Date: Sep 2005

Learn to be adaptive?
How can you be 'adaptive' when your WHOLE PARTY is spamed with interrupts and DoT?

How are you going to be adaptive when you play a class combo that can't stop from being interrupted, or knocked on their ass?

Explain that.

I'm not even talking about in the harderst areas of the game. Go into the Maguuma jungle, there are patches of floating eyes that will own you even if you're fully ascended level 20 with elites. It doesn't make a freaking difference.


Make the game easier?!
We're not here asking for the game to be easier, duh, we are taking about making encounters that are now death sentences or a walk in the park into something that IS a challenge. It's not a challenge to stand there and die. That's pretty damn easy. It's NOT a challenge to make yourself completely immune to a mob's tactics (by using skills/spells like Disciplined stance/Mantra of Concentration which means there is zero challenge) and then "Woops it's ass" because you're immune to 90% of it's attacks. And these are your two options in these circumstances, or a 3rd which is running for your life. Wow that's hard to. As if.

What is a challenge is to pull thru devastating circumstances despite having most your skills/health/energy ripped to shreds, but still managing to eventually roll around to victory with luck/tactics/strategy. Not because you were turning tail and running for miles because more then 2 aborting/dot casting mobs came into contact with your party.

How exactly is giving yourself Disciplined Stance (so you can't be knocked down) or Mantra of Concentration/etc (so you can't be aborted while casting) not easy when facing mobs who spam interrupts?

Explain that.


Easier? *snort* I want a challenge. Not a death sentence or a walk in the park option.


EDIT: Wanted to add a comment about backfire to the person who thinks just toss one up and the mob = dead. This is only true if you land backfire on a mob before it begins spamming it's spells, which happens at the begining of the encounter with the mob. Think of your mirror match in the desert. Same theory. After the inital spam, the varied recharge rates of what they did cast causes a spacing of casting to occur and Backfire becomes a lot less effective.

Hodor

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2005

Federated Communist Uber Korps

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mysterial
Might want to go check out real rangers, because they can do that too. Or go play a ranger yourself. Go shoot at something and immediately after the arrow starts flying hit Distracting Shot. Guess what? Instant fire, ignoring your bow's refire.
I do play a ranger. Enchanted Bows use Concussion Shot. It has a 0.5 cast. The AI cheats.

beleg curudin

beleg curudin

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jun 2005

Durance of Fate [DoF]

R/

It is unbalanced really. The AI is something left over that needed changing with the removal of refund points. The game bottlenecks you into a forced build and punishes creativity.

Sure I can take my warder/prot monk and make him a mesmer secondary so I can use mantra of consentration, or bring glyph of whatever so I can not be interupted. But one makes me lose the wards just so I cannot be interupted. And the other makes me need to change out a skill JUST for interupts.

People that say "Why make this easy game easier" Has not played the game like the rest of us have. They have not stuggled with henchmen, or died repeatedly with pick up groups. These people have gotten lucky and where wisked through the game on the shoulders of good players.

Those who say "It keeps it challangin" Don't mind sacrificing creativity for bland skills.

Mursaat are another over powered enemy in the game. I took henchmen 5 times into Abaddons mouth, and even with chimera of intensity on I was hard pressed to get passed the first gate. That is impossible. A team of 8 with a 50% increase to everything cannot beat a load of 10-14 mursaat. And its mostly the mesmers that rip them apart. All I needed was Soul Leech, and I gotta say that Anet must have alot of plans for that skill if its that hard to aquire for us pve'rs.

Alone)

Alone)

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Sep 2005

Campbell, California

Legio Imortalii

W/Mo

So is the common reason that people want to tone it down, is because rockshots stop people from more farming, and it interrupts only one time after the many times one has casted it before? Sure, it can mean a loss of a battle, but really now. I don't even feel that it's that big of a deal.

But if you people think so, alright. I respect that. But for me...

/not signed.