Instanced vs Persistant Worlds.

indeed, I'm not suggesting a change in GW at all. I just think its interesting the tradeoffs that are made between peristant world and instanced world. There really are some things that I miss about the persistant world type games, but not enough that I want to change guild wars which I'm still enjoying quite nicely.

It is a good discussion...

GW is the only instanced MMORPG out there. World of Warcraft, on the otherhand, is one out of a good 100+ persistant MMORPGs that exist.

This is more a "GW vs Average MMORPG" kind of thing.

I don't know.. I really miss meeting people in the persistant world. The only way you can meet people in GW is by standing around and yelling "LFG FOR ANYTHING!!!"

WoW does have several instanced areas in the game such as dungeons. Just like in GW, once your party enters the area you're the only group.

Um, GW isn't really an MMO, and in fact, Diablo had instanced areas long before GW came along. In fact, the instancing worked even better in Diablo because of the randomly generated areas. Then again, GW has one large map to uncover.

As for instance versus continuous, it's all about what you prefer.

I've played EQ before, and having a huge continuous world was pretty cool. You come along a dungeon that you want to run through, so you join the few people at the entrance, then a few others come to join you. Plus, you'll come across individuals and other teams while you're journeying. It makes adventuring pretty dynamic. However, this whole single-world thing makes for a very artificial experience as well. Sitting around waiting for a boss/other monsters to respawn? Doesn't sound like anything a real hero would do. And what if the game allows PvP but you don't want that? Tough luck, go with a strong group if you're afraid of getting killed.

Guild Wars used instances partly to avoid having crowded spawn locations (and the idea of a boss spawning before your eyes in the first place). The instancing also allows Guild Wars to tell its story and to have you complete tasks with some actual purpose. How would Hell's Precipice work out if eight groups were standing around waiting for the Lich to respawn? And the only thing you get from the Lich is uber lewt? Sure, the most you get is experience and a skill point from missions, but the instancing allows the story to unfold for each character you play.

I'll end this by saying that both styles allow for completely different advantages. Personally, I've always preferred playing Diablo 2 with a group of friends in our own instanced quests, and I like the instanced mission idea in GW. Your preference depends on whether you prefer much more social interaction or a focus on your own team's skill and coordination. In other words, MMORPG versus Multiplayer RPG.

Personally, while there are some pretty good "stories", for lack of a better term, that people have experienced while playing guild wars, a few that I'll remember from my own experience included, I think the best "gaming moments" i've experienced have come from those persistant worlds.

Don't get me wrong, i've had all kinda fun with GW and some pretty interesting moments/stories, but because of the rather limited (by comparison at least) social interaction in this game I find that most of the "stories" i have are about some horribly bad player, or some really funny mistake someone made on a mission/quest, or maybe an interesting bug. Aside from those types of things, I think we have alot of the same stories to tell because we've all done the same quests/missions multiple times.

But those imersive (and time consuming ) worlds seem to be able to generate more unique situations than GW. I remember when my monk in EQ got a bad case of wanderlust and ended up on a new continent clear on the other side of the planet lost in a really dark and foggy forest running for his life from this little brownie bastard who was whoopin his ass. In the process of shaking the brownie he got so turned around that he was hopelessly lost in the darkness (humans dont see like elves in the dark) and wandered untill hunger finally weakend him to the point of collapse. He laid there for some time calling out for help, unable to move. He had actually resigned himself to death when a passing sorceress of great power nearly tripped over his prone and nearly lifeless body. She fed him and directed him to the nearest town, the elven tree city, where he was welcomed warmly and recovered fully. Later he would join this sorceress's guild and they would go on to perform many great deeds in search of fame and fortune.

now, this actually happend, i was a very young character, wandering where I probably didnt belong, the game had day night cycles and let me tell you it SUCKED to be human at night. Also characters consumed food and at that time if you got hungry enough your caracter would collapse and you'd be unable to move, just able to speak, losing hp untill you finally die. A player who I became good friends with actually gave me food to get me to town and directions.

Now, this kind of experience could never ever happen in GW. I'm not saying GW is a lesser game for it. Not everyone is looking for that type of game I know. And I do enjoy that I am next going to hop back into GW for maybe an hour and I'll be able to get "something" done. That having been said, I've not played a game since EQ that provided such an ample canvas for unique events and the storys that players could share in or later share with each other about. At one point there were lots of "GM"s that went around making custom events happen... I'm not sure you could really do that kind of thing in an instanced game.

just more food for thought.

Edit, i'd like to clarify the "time consuming" remark. By the time I quit playing GW it will probably be fairly close to total time spent playing EQ. (heres to GW lasting that many years) the difference being that I've got 2 pretty tough RP characters who participate in the endgame pvp, or pretty much do what they want in the RP world. I've also got 2 other RP characters who are workin thier way thru the game to help some guildies on thier first trip thru the game, they are both around 15th lvl. Now, i've done this in maybe 800 hours? (lots of pvp before I started my smallish guild) Back in the begining of EQ, you could put nearly that many hours into one character and still not be capped out. Advancement took bloody FOREVER In that game. Hell, just getting a popular item from a rare spawning mob could take forever, there were times i'd wait 2 hours in a dungeon for a spot for a melee class to open up in the party who had currently claimed that camp. Of course, having waited out my opportunity I then felt compelled to camp the damn thing for 8 hours or so to try to ensure i got a chance to roll on said item. lol, dont miss the time consumption.

I don't like to PK, but I do feel that a persistant world gives more replayability to the game.

What I mean by that?

Try running out into Witman Folly from Drok's next time you are there.. EACH and EVERY single time you will either see one or two grawls spawn to your right, and start running towards the main group to the left.

EACH time.

How dynamic and interesting is it?

It'd be more interesting to go out into EAs and meet other people walking around.

Great stories! i think i'll be goin to EQ1 or 2...or FFx1...
persistent is where its at!

i like competition. if a bunch of people gang up on me...i know in the end the good always win right?
theres ways to defend vs kill stealing. you can place a sigil or mark on a creep when u first see it. its magical so no one else can atack your creep

wish GWs would make a few persistent areas!

I wish to be clear, I dont want GW to change to persistant, I'm cool with it as it is, i just played for an hour, did a mission and got my character to the next all with henchies, had a nice chat with someone about the Wheel of Time series of books. Not as likely to be able to get on, get something done and get off in an hour in the persistant world type games. Plus, I'm thinking persistant world = more expensive to run for the developers of _______. And I dont wanna start paying to play for GW.

Don't worry I don't think anyone thinks you want to change it.

Has anyone been to Acalon City resently... I was running a new character in tha game and made my way to the Great Northern Wall... you can run all the way there within leaving the city.

Basically Acalon city is one the largest places in the game... what they need is a massive area like that, with one 2 ditricts per server... but it be an area with monster spawns and other interesting stuff... if they added just one area like that, it would be cool.

Persistant worlds would be awesome to add but require constant maintenance, for sometimes spawn rate can become irate, spawning more than it should, or drops from said creatures could go higher or lower than they are supposed to be.

I would love a persistant pvp arena though.Where you can join in at any time, where you are simply put on a team (Blue/Red), and you can simply pvp for as long as you like without having to constantly load the arena's.

Nice one mate, a massive area maybe which ANY country could join, with maybe 50v50v50?

Now before anyone talks about lag and how this would be impossible, well Planetside pulls it off pretty well, that that's with upto 120v120v120 on a single zone!

Now the lag in the game is bad now,since Sony Online ****ed the game up and all, but back in the beta and early days the game ran well for most people.

Damn double post... damn you Internet!

And if no one brings rez? You get killed and ... what?

Go back to town?

Lie there and enjoy the breeze?

I've played several traditional MMOs, and it is the instancing in Guild Wars that made me fall in love with the game. Most interaction I had in the other games with other players was either in town or in a hunting group. The rest was frustration in dealing with kill stealing, spawn camping, etc. FFXI is a great example of how frustrating that can be. In that game, almost all the monsters that drop good stuff are monopolized 24/7 (mostly by people who sell the game's currency, gil, for real life money). Leveling involves either killing a million rabbits or finding XP groups to camp one spot for hours. In my opinion, the Guild Wars approach is far superior. Interaction takes place in towns and groups where it really matters, and everyone has a fair shot at the content. It's also one reason the PVP is so good in this game. I think one of the reasons many are starting to long for persistant worlds is the fact that you can't join a group that has already zoned or started a mission. The ability to do that would be a far better solution than making a persistant area.

If I were to want anything from a traditional MMO to be incorporated into Guild Wars, it would be an auction house. The instancing, however, is what sets Guild Wars apart from the others and keeps this game from being another level treadmill/timesink/give your entire life to the game/impossible to balance MMORPG.

a lot of "presistant" world games have instanced areas. EQ, EQ2, WoW, AO, AC2, etc

O god.. i can c it now..... 45 iways, 5 monks. hehe i t would be cool but the unbalance would make many people complain.

How simple minded of you
"Errr... big numbers mean more unbalance errr How I mine fish?"

It would be exactly the same, just on a larger scale.

Its not so much that I cant join my friends already in a mission that have me longing for a little more imersion. Missions dont usually last so long that I cant at least meet up with them for a while.

As I said before, and someone refined into a better word, its the immersion that I would love to see more of in guildwars. For example, nothing can spice up the monotony of the level treadmil like a "random GM event". I remember in one game that was persistant, the areas around towns were noobie areas, the further you got away from town the harder it got. I was playing one night when suddendly the "buzz" in the game is spreading that one of the cities or more accurately the noobie zone around it are being overrun by previously unknown undead creatures of a greater power than creatures usually found in that area. The call went out for some heros and me and my buddies joined the fray in an awesome battle against an undead horde. We were among some of the first responders because we heard about it quick an had a caster to teleport us. (no map travel) We fought a "delaying action" or maybe even a "fighting withdrawl" untill enough players arrived to overwhelm the undead threat.

I wish I could think of a way for similiar immersive events to happen in GW...

Another big problem with persistant worlds; ridiculously long load times. In fact, 80%-95% of the time EQ crashed, it was during zoning. And it was hard to tell because I'd be sitting there waiting for 30 seconds in the first place.

That, and constant worlds need constant maintenance and the occasional reboot.

But instancing in GW has a really big problem too; once you're out of town, that's it. If you want anyone else to join you, tough. If people drop, too bad. At least in Diablo 2 people could come and go as they please. In GW, you have to simply stay short that many players. It would be nice to allow friends to fill in the spots of dropped players, but that could lead to people getting rushed through missions (experienced player drops, level 3 friend joins to complete the mission). At the very least, let a henchie fill the spot. Then again, what does ANet care about rushing? They allow it even though it's clearly screwing up low-level PvP.

What would the cost of Heal Party be? :O

I know many MMO's do, I was commenting on the WoW reference.

Not really, I found that bumping the ram up helps alot with long load times on games like EQ2. WoW doesn't really have load times (aside from the inital load and instances).

I totaly agree with you TomD22

Altough I like guildwars a lot, its not realy a mmorpg. its more like an singleplayer game with multyplayer options. And of course a lot of extra features come with that like a guild, online prices that vary and the regular leet talking
I would sure like to try out a game like wow or swg. I just havent got the money. Would be nice if there was a persistant type of area in gw somewhere
EDIT!
What I dont get is, you all say that the server costst of a persistant world are a lot higher. Dont you think that with the milion people playing gw, they wont need a few servers that are online 24/7?

Despite the fact that the above scenario sounds interesting, I for one am very glad that GW is the way it is. Given the large number of annoying players that I meet in the towns, outposts and PUG groups, I am very glad that I can form a team of friends and friendly players, enter a mission or walk out a portal, and leave all the rest behind.

The only good thing I can say about instances is that it lets the developers set up MORE challenging adventures because the variables are set.

Did GW do that? No way, this game is so simple that without any cheats or runners or twinking you can finish in 20 hours easily. Not only that but when you do it once it's exactly the same for the next character.

My warrior/ranger was my 2nd character through, I got him from zero to 20 in one afternoon wearing Ascalon Armor and no help.

I'm interested in seeing an instanced game that is even decently challenging come along to explore the possibilities but GW isn't it.

Right now I'm in the persistant camp all the way because of the community that goes hand in hand with it. I never was intentionally trained and didn't have people killstealing all over the place when I played persistent worlds. I think the rumor of killstealing and all griefing was way over played and very rare on most servers. I played a lot so I should have seen some more of it if it really was as bad as people make it out to be.

Ashon's Call 2, right?

Agree on wanting more challenges. GW PvE is way too easy (some people may disagree, thinking GW PvE is too hard, but that's another issue). When I can finish just about any mission with just myself and full team of henchmen, with any profession I play, with ease, this game is failing at challenging players.

The only real challenge at the moment is manage playing with bad human players. With a semi decent human players team, half of the team can afk at zone in and players still win the mission.

I come from playing EQ hardcore for about 2 years, another 2 years casual playing EQ and various other MMORPG games before that. I don't miss the time sink, the kill steal, the trains in EQ, but I definitly miss the challanges and the community.

In EQ, a bad group just isn't gonna go anywhere fast. And player/character repetition actually mean something.

But the train, the kill steal are not over played. Not only there are other players wanting to, trying to, doing so to "steal" the mobs for exp/loot/quest, there are professional eBayers, 6 boxing (controlling multiply characters at once) that'll kill steal your mobs right under your nose. and no, they are not breaking any offical rules by doing it with little bit of caution.

I dont know too much but why not mix it up. If you want a few instanced zones and few persistant zones why not. If people are camping a boss move to another zone and try there. For kill stealing if your party is attacking that monster then others cant attack it. For loot stealing why not use the system already in guild wars. The loot will be distributed among the people in the party who killed the monster. Now like i said i dont know what it would cost to have some persistant and instanced zones but if we have to start paying a monthly fee well then im happy with instanced.

Nope, EQ actually, Cant remember the name of the zone, but it was the first zone outside of qeynos, used to be able to get the fishbone earing of a rare goblin or something, had the entrance to blackburrow and the stonehenge lookin thing with the undead around it.

I like that Guild Wars is an instanced world. In MMORPGs that have persistant worlds I have had bad experiences. There are conflicting interests...you want to level and then someone comes and wants to level so you end up sharing a pit or have the pit be taken over by higher leveled people or by people who want to piss you off and kill you.

Persistant worlds are fun because you can walk out of town and run by people and meet new people and talk. Unfortunately, the world isn't full of perfect people... people don't know how to treat eachother right and for that reason alone I think that Instanced wins.. they BOTH have their pros and cons though.

Notice how a persistant world is supposed to increase immersion, but the mechanics of those kinds of game completely go against immersion?

Imagine... you're in a world where you're with your elite heroic team, out to slay a beast threatening the continent with its... wait, nevermind, a few other guys just killed it, you have to go sit down and wait for it to spawn again. After all, you guys need its phat lewt.

Forget it. For big boss challenges, instancing is the only way to go, which is one thing WoW did right. As for an entirely instanced world, well, it IS kinda nice to come across people once in a while when soloing.

Except me, then.
I don't like people. I don't want them around when I play. I play to play. I don't play to socialize.
Bullsh!t.