Maybe I have horrible vision...

I'm guessing that the flameslinger was removed because its presence could sabotage certain other builds (all sorts of nec ones), and the people who use premades are likely to go into a fight without discussing builds first. You mean because of Greater Conflagration? That's a good point... but they shouldn't have removed the build, they should've just given it Quick Shot for an elite. It'd be a better build that way anyway.

As long as they're taking out builds because they could interfere with teammates, why not the Pyromancer? Energizing Wind can be a problem just like Greater Conflagration, and the Pyromancer isn't a very good build to begin with.

lol the flame singer build was hilarious.

waste an elite spot so you can get fire damage, to activate conjure flame..thats genious i tell ya! Flame Slinger was a replacement to the Shock Sniper build (Conjure Lightning + Thunderclap) because unless you unlocked a shocking bowstring, you couldn't use the build at all. At least with the Flame Slinger, you didn't need a fiery bowstring thanks to GC or Kindle Arrows.

Some of the beta builds were a lot better than the builds they picked to go live with.

None of the builds are any good. I like the hydromancer one alot (edited for my personal taste though...)

None of the builds are any good. Some are better than others. And remember that they're mainly intended for comp. arena, not tombs teams.

Some are better than others. And remember that they're mainly intended for comp. arena, not tombs teams. That doesn't make it right for the Fi Boon healer to have 8 in Blood. 8 in blood gives the same 14 energy on offering as 7 in blood. It also doesn't make it right for a monk to have absolutely no energy management and 2 hard rezes. Why would you use a pyromancer at all in a 4v4?...its just a gross waste of resources. Why would you use a minion master at all in PvP let alone in a 4v4 where bodies are limited. They even fail to give the correct instructions "At the start of combat, use Deathly Swarm to damage your foes and Energy Tap to drain their energy." Anyone else see something wrong with that statement? The build doesn't have energy tap. Why is the only mesmer we get a sword wielding one who'll find it hard to shut down a failing business?

To couple this with, we have in many cases the first PvP builds people are introduced to. The premades, for the most part, are sloppy. I'm going to be clear about this, premades should not push the boundaries of PvP innovation, they should provide a solid base for new people to start off on and be an example of an extremely "solid" build. At this point in time we've established some constants and accepted bases in the community, this should be reflected. The premades also serve as a good template in case you're missing skills, skill acquisition being a big topic. It'll take me too long to point out whats wrong with each and every one of the premades so I'll just give you the lovely highlights. We have 12 premade slots, thats, 2 for each class right, representing the 2 finest aspects of what they do in PvP? Wrong.

We get bull like the DW healer.

The problems with the different builds translates directly into the way people percieve PvP in Guild Wars, when they get out a premade for the first time and go to play some random arenas for fun this is the sort of trash they get. Characters such as the Paladin negate the want to develop a sense of specialisation. Also the builds in no way follow or can cope with a development in the metagame, this means that the gap between vets and newcommers just get wider all the time, refinements not included, skills relegated to the third league not recognised. This not only is bad yet again for synergy in future teams but also breeds elitism, again, this is not acceptable to me. Not only do I want the premades changed (as you might have figured) I want them changed continually. I want 2 of each class included and I want them to be vaguely representative of the current developments in gameplay.

I don't know. I'm not talking about gimmick builds like IWAY (bad for 4v4 anyway), but including/recognising general community progressions such as hex breaker (the skill), corpse denial, distracting ranger, offensive trapper (iffy), eviscerate/executioner spike warrior, existence of smiting at all that are blatantly not even considered in the current set of premades would be a good start. An even better one would be to change the premades continually based on the evolving metagame.

...but for gods sakes...remove the DW healer.

That doesn't make it right for the Fi Boon healer to have 8 in Blood... I don't disagree with anything you say. The premade builds are, for the most part, terrible and often gimmicky, when they should be solid, introductory builds for new players to get a sense of PVP. I'm just saying, some are a lot closer to the ideal than others. It's not accurate to put the Ice Blighter in the same class as the Spell Slasher or the Paladin. (Ugh, I feel dirty just typing out the names of those two...)

how did you get it into pve :S?

p a l a d i n f t w screenshot the build then build a PVE toon with same stats and skills, it worked well with a good flatbow with a firey string and enchanting grip