About levels above 20

One and Two

One and Two

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2005

A lot of people think that allowing level 40 would make it so that people would max out every single attribute, and there would be no decisions.

That's a load of crap, and you know it.

The current maximum of an attribute is 12+3+1 (16). Now, at level 40, you would have a base health of 880, if health continues to increase at the same rate. How on earth would a level 16 fire spell, doing 50 damage, be able to effect this uber level 40?

The answer plainly is, it can't. Either battles will have to become larger, and spikes are the only kills, or attacks need to become more powerful.

Therefore, the maximum attribute would probably become like 30 or something. Flare would jump to 80 damage, and magic would....scale up.

So, I ask, how would you be able to max out all attributes? Sure, you can get a level of 12 in all areas, but when someone echo spams a level 30 meteor, I dunno if you can keep up.

This would be the equivalent of today running an attribute of like 7 in each attribute. I wonder, does anyone actually do that?

Finally, I know that some of you think the level cap will never increase, due to what Anet said. Unfortunately, to burst your bubbles, Anet has also said that increasing the level cap is probably necessary in expansions.

Thamior Whisperwind

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jul 2005

San Francisco

Shadow Wanderers

R/Mo

I totally agree on this issue. By the way, the most points you could put for each of your attributes (without runes or any other forms of bonuses) are seven, for seven for your attributes. So, what will Arena Net do to change the gaming experience in the future? I can't wait to find out...

Arcanis the Omnipotent

Arcanis the Omnipotent

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Sep 2005

Nova Alliance

Me/

The answer isnt higher levels, its more of the Attribute quests to be given in the later chapters. Such as another in Chapter 2, 15 more points to use or so.

Plague

Plague

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2005

N/E

I can't really bother to think of which skills there are, but there are probably some I'm not thinking of that having much higher HP levels would have a negative impact on. Blood Sacrifices perhaps, those 10% damage modifiers...

One and Two

One and Two

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2005

To clarify, I'm not advocating level 100 characters or anything. I'm just saying that this is a possibility, which many people do not understand it is.

Also to plague, higher HP sacrifice, but higher returns.

Hanuman li Tosh

Hanuman li Tosh

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Sep 2005

garden of the gods, CO

Over Powered

N/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanis the Omnipotent
The answer isnt higher levels, its more of the Attribute quests to be given in the later chapters. Such as another in Chapter 2, 15 more points to use or so.
i wonder how that will work out? will chapter 2 pvp characters have 230 attribute points and ch 1 have 200?

anyway, i agree 100% with OP, level 20 cap is fine.

Kwisatz_Haderach

Kwisatz_Haderach

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Oct 2005

no it would not work like

currently the way anet has the attributes set is 5 for the first 10 levels, 10 for the next 5 levels, and 15 for the final 5 levels plus 2 15 point attributes quest for a total of 200 points

the way they might do it for 40 levels might be 5 for first 10 levels, 10 for the next 10 levels, 15 for next 10 levels, 20 for the final 10 levels for a total of 500 points. So to compensate for this they will probally make the amount of points that it requires to gain an actual level in an atribute go up currently the max it takes to reach a level 12 attribute without runes is 90 something attribute points and due to the way anet is currently doing the points we can assume that to reach level 15 it will probally be about 200 attribute points. this leaves 300 left to play with plus runes, items, skills, and headpieces for anywhere from 20-22 max attribute level. This seems like alot but really you can only get the bonus from items 1/5 of the time so it really is more like 19.2 attri lvl to 21.2 attri lvl plus only elementalist and necromancer(correct me if im wrong) have attri increasing skills so most callses will only have 19-20 attri levels. this aint anywhere near your so called spamming lvl 30 meteor storms! However due to multiplaction effects the amount of damage done by skills with closely parallel the increase in health.

The only real problem i see with this system is that healing spells well need a huge buff to keep up with max health and damge done. heres an example, heal other currently heals for 190 at lvl 16 attri lvl with divine favor this is almost half of the typical health of 480 for a typical player. However at lvl 19 as shown it would only heal for 220 health which would be only about 1/4 of a lvl 40 character.

Overall, it would not make a big difference the increase of level except on healing skills, so it is feasible to increase level without seriously disrupting the gameplay, however they will have to solve the eventual nerf to the healing skills to make it fair to all professions

NightOwl

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Aug 2005

The level cap being 20, with no intention of increasing it, is 90% of the reason I bought this game. I hate leveling. I strongly hope that Anet sticks to what they said and don't raise the cap.

Mysterial

Mysterial

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2005

Servants of Fortuna

E/Me

While I hope they don't increase it much, I think they have to raise it a little if they want to keep the PvE crowd. And since the PvE crowd is at least half of the game's population, it would be wise to keep them happy - even if most of the advancement they feel is illusion.

Anraeth

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2005

SE america

This Is Cakeguild [cAke]

pvp max shoulds stay 20, in the theme of keeping the amount of balence we already have. Strategy>power.

One and Two

One and Two

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2005

My point was not a discussion of whether or not to raise the level cap, but the fact that it is possible to raise the cap without disrupting balance.

Frankly, I couldn't care, because I will probably use PvP characters anyway.

NightOwl

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Aug 2005

My point is that your point is moot, the cap is and should remain at 20.

calamitykell

Banned

Join Date: Aug 2005

N.Y.C.

Quote:
Originally Posted by One and Two
I'm just saying that this is a possibility
Not according to ANet. 'Nuff said.

Making it a level based game makes it exactly like every other rpg. It becomes a level grind.

"Hey, what's up?"
"Nothing, trying to get to level 33."
a week later...
"Hey, what's up?"
"Nothing, trying to get to level 38."

Why do you WANT that? Why why why? If you want to grind levels for an accomplishment, go play Lineage 2, or World of Warcraft. Please, not everyone wants to keep increasing levels, including the developers. Guild Wars is great without it. In short:

IF IT AIN'T BROKE, DON'T INCREASE THE MAX LEVEL JUST 'CAUSE YOU'RE BORED.

Phades

Phades

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kwisatz_Haderach
the way they might do it for 40 levels might be 5 for first 10 levels, 10 for the next 10 levels, 15 for next 10 levels, 20 for the final 10 levels for a total of 500 points. So to compensate for this they will probally make the amount of points that it requires to gain an actual level in an atribute go up currently the max it takes to reach a level 12 attribute without runes is 90 something attribute points and due to the way anet is currently doing the points we can assume that to reach level 15 it will probally be about 200 attribute points. this leaves 300 left to play with plus runes, items, skills, and headpieces for anywhere from 20-22 max attribute level. This seems like alot but really you can only get the bonus from items 1/5 of the time so it really is more like 19.2 attri lvl to 21.2 attri lvl plus only elementalist and necromancer(correct me if im wrong) have attri increasing skills so most callses will only have 19-20 attri levels. this aint anywhere near your so called spamming lvl 30 meteor storms! However due to multiplaction effects the amount of damage done by skills with closely parallel the increase in health.
Those 2 points equate out to between 2 and 12 damage added in a single hit or +1s duration increase in most cases. That does not scale up with the amount gained per level considering the cost per point increase at the high end. Considering the majority of it is mitigated by AL, prot spirit, and others down to smaller levels or the AL ignoring damage (excluding earth, desecrate enchantments, and feast of corruption) comes in smaller pieces to begin with to make spiking a moot issue especially at the higher end. Then you consider other things like fertile season getting a boost as well ramping up the hp even higher and well the whole idea of the spike outweighing everything goes out the window really.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kwisatz_Haderach
The only real problem i see with this system is that healing spells well need a huge buff to keep up with max health and damge done. heres an example, heal other currently heals for 190 at lvl 16 attri lvl with divine favor this is almost half of the typical health of 480 for a typical player. However at lvl 19 as shown it would only heal for 220 health which would be only about 1/4 of a lvl 40 character.
Considering how efficient healing is, its a rather moot point. You are also assuming that no new weapons or armor being released in conjunction with the level hike. Raising the level and equipment will throw the damage scale very far in favor of physical damage dealers, instead of being somewhat close in some situations. Things like deep wound will become king the higher hp increase becomes for spike, instead of any amount of spell directed damage. ~+200 damage for free, umm yes thanks since no spell hits that hard unless it ignores armor level and hits a frenzied warrior. Also degen at the higher hp levels would become almost pointless as it would take several spell and condition cycles to bring someone close to death.

Without several changes in scale, raising the level cap just wouldnt work. Even just raising the attribute cap would be just as potentially damaging.

Farin

Farin

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2005

Delta Formation [DF]

W/

You wouldn't have to have more attribute points, or hit points. It would be just as easy ass making 40 the Max level. 5 Attribute points and 10hp per level, as well as earning skill points. PvE Players get their levels, PvPers keep their Skill levels, and Life the same. Problem Solved.

Kwisatz_Haderach

Kwisatz_Haderach

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Oct 2005

also another thing i would like to add to my above post is that health degeneration/regeneration will become almost worthless due to the fact that you have so much more health to gain/lose. currently the max you can dain/lose is ten pips at +/-2 health persec fo a total of 20 +/-health per sec. most skills that deal with health degeneration/regeneration last around 10 secs for a grand of about 200 health lost. ( some skills do more or less based on skills descriptions) this would be only be about 1/4 of the health of a level 40 character. to resolve this anet would have to change the max omount of pips to 20 to balance it out. this means more hexes need to be stacked to get the same affect as in chp1 or enchantments. this means more spots taken up on the skill bar to go for killing half a targets health(20*2=400, 400*11/5=880) this would create an unbalance.

One and two just so you know any increase in level also affects you cause all the strategys involved will transcend over to pvp. unless you can talk a whole lot of people into keeping their lvl 20 characters and pvping with em

One and Two

One and Two

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by calamitykell
Why do you WANT that? Why why why? If you want to grind levels for an accomplishment, go play Lineage 2, or World of Warcraft. Please, not everyone wants to keep increasing levels, including the developers. Guild Wars is great without it. In short:

IF IT AIN'T BROKE, DON'T INCREASE THE MAX LEVEL JUST 'CAUSE YOU'RE BORED.
1. Check out Fansite Friday 55. It says that a level cap increase is an interesting possibility.
2. I NEVER said I want to increase the max level. I'm not bored. I really don't care about PvE, nor its "grind".

For all of you that think a level cap increase is impossible, check out Fansite Friday before you start bitching at me.

And I DON'T care whether or not it happens or not. I'm just telling you that mathematically this is possible. Some people think it isn't.

Akhilleus

Akhilleus

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2005

If it aint expensive, it aint worth buyin'.

Leading/Co-leading Bretheren Of Chaos [Dark]

W/Mo

i do, however, think that some classes should have a higher base life than others.
i think diablo 2 had one of the most ingenious level-bonus methods ever to grace an mmorpg; depending on your class you would gain the same net bonus in hp or mana, dependin on your class. casters gained more mana, physical damage characters gained more health.
the difference was not so large as to unbalance the game, but it did make a substancial difference in play styles; in GW, given the relative weakness of individual character types, it would put a larger stress on a characters defined roles

Kwisatz_Haderach

Kwisatz_Haderach

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Oct 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phades
Those 2 points equate out to between 2 and 12 damage added in a single hit or +1s duration increase in most cases. That does not scale up with the amount gained per level considering the cost per point increase at the high end. Considering the majority of it is mitigated by AL, prot spirit, and others down to smaller levels or the AL ignoring damage (excluding earth, desecrate enchantments, and feast of corruption) comes in smaller pieces to begin with to make spiking a moot issue especially at the higher end. Then you consider other things like fertile season getting a boost as well ramping up the hp even higher and well the whole idea of the spike outweighing everything goes out the window really.
first of all i would like you to get on gw right now go to old ascalon and slay some charr.

Notice anything

YOUR DOING WAY MORE DAMAGE THAN THE ADVERTISED AMOUNT!

This is because there is a multiplication principle* that allows you to do way more damage. As you reach some of the higher attri lvls this can be spammed to heck out so that the amount of damage you are doing will be proportional to the increase in health.

*i dont know the exact amount per attri lvl so anyone who has experimented with it and can enlighten us please post

whoops i had the mechanics wrong. after actually reading a description of the way this work i would have to say that base skill dmg would be 150% of normal damge output before armor.

ps any one know how to post a page?

Dax

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2005

Wow people get so snippy over the littlest of things...

group hug time

One and Two

One and Two

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2005

/hug Dax.

So I still encourage people to read Fansite Friday 55, and find out Anet might increase level cap.

Personally I don't care which way it goes. I don't see why it should effect others, either.

PvE people support each other (in theory) and PvP is all max level (in theory).

Which brings up an entirely different debate.

fenix

fenix

Major-General Awesome

Join Date: Aug 2005

Aussie Trolling Crew HQ - Event Organiser and IRC Tiger

Ex Talionis [Law], Trinity of the Ascended [ToA] ????????????????&#

W/

I think higher levels would be cool in some aspects. But I'm keen to see new skills added, and the new professions.

Alone)

Alone)

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Sep 2005

Campbell, California

Legio Imortalii

W/Mo

If there are going to be higher levels, I'm sure that the Anet people will try their best at still keeping it balanced. So why really argue about how much hp one is going to have, or more attribute points? If they do plan on raising hp/energy, and attributes, weapons will also have to have new max damages. etc. etc.

Whatever works. Just looking forward to Chapter 2.

Wasteland Squidget

Wasteland Squidget

I'm back?

Join Date: Sep 2005

Here.

Delta Formation [DF]

W/E

Fansite Friday 55 from Anet's news archives shows up as a chinese 404 to me. Could you post a link or quote from that indicates the level cap will increase?

As for balance ruination - one thing to consider is that Chapter 2 is not a free update, but PvP balance most be maintained between those who buy it and those who do not.

Granted you could put the level cap increase into a free patch, but then the question arises of where the old players are gaining these new levels. If you raise the cap to 40, where are they going to find level 35 monsters within chapter 1 content? Suddenly Arenanet has to add a lot of free areas from Chapter 2 if they want to allow PvEers to remain competitive with one another, at which stage Chapter 2 stops being an expansion and becomes a free update.

Likewise, changing the system to use higher numbers and react to them in the same way would require many changes to the system. Deep wounds and degen/regen have been mentioned, but people haven't even thought about primary attributes.

If you allow primary attributes to scale upwards you run into some very serious issues with balance. At 25 Expertise, all Expertise-modified skills become free of energy cost. At high Fast Casting the change either becomes negligible or near instant-casts all spells, depending on how diminishing returns are handled. High soul reaping allows a regen of your entire energy pool on every death, rather than a smallish boost. Energy Storage and Divine Favor are the only ones that would really scale up okay, and even them not very well.

So you have to rework primary attributes, degen/regen, Deep Wounds, Health Sacrifices, every new and old skill, and any number of other things...and for what, really?

A level cap change seems unlikely to me.

Dax

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2005

It seems kinda funny to me that people hate the level grind but are more than happy to plug away repeatedly to build up skills.

I don't think they are going to change it, but I don't see what the big deal is about raising the level cap. It would create more diversity among classes and challenges.

Ah well what the hell do I know anyways

Hockster

Hockster

Banned

Join Date: Jul 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget
Granted you could put the level cap increase into a free patch, but then the question arises of where the old players are gaining these new levels. If you raise the cap to 40, where are they going to find level 35 monsters within chapter 1 content? Suddenly Arenanet has to add a lot of free areas from Chapter 2 if they want to allow PvEers to remain competitive with one another, at which stage Chapter 2 stops being an expansion and becomes a free update.
As the game is instanced they could have it set so that anytime there is a level 25 or higher party member in the group, the monsters will have an appropriate level as well. That would make Char farming outside Piken quite interesting.

Saerden

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: May 2005

Raising the level cap is betraying the last bit of integrity left in this game. If people would play such a simplistic pseudo-RPG called GW Level Grind, it would be a true testament to gamer stupidity. Many said it, i will say it again: if you like big numbers, go play with your calculator. When ANET changes the cap, GW will be dead. Wether they raise an ugly zombie out of the body and sell it a million times, i dont care. WoW and lineage II have millions of idiots playing.

Eet GnomeSmasher

Banned

Join Date: Apr 2005

In my head

Repeat after me. Higher levels do NOT equal better gaming. More skills and content IS better.

Higher levels does not equate to more diversity. That's crap.

unienaule

unienaule

I dunt even get "Retired"

Join Date: Aug 2005

Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]

High max hp means degen and regen = near worthless ftl.

Lasareth

Lasareth

Aquarius

Join Date: Jun 2005

Somewhere between Boardwalk and Park Place

The only instance where I can see a concept like this not throwing everything absurdly out of whack is in a PvE "dungeon" type environment, where your level cap is temporarily lifted and you fight insanely tough monsters just for the heck of it.

It would actually be pretty fun to abuse skills in an area where doing so has no consequence on the rest of the game.

Arcanis the Omnipotent

Arcanis the Omnipotent

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Sep 2005

Nova Alliance

Me/

This is why I said more attribute points, you become deadlier with the same ammount of HP and Armor as you've always had. But doing it slowly, like one set of points every once in a great while.

I mean, if we got 30 more points right away, you'd see a drastic shift in how PVP works, by the builds people are making. Also, its good to keep the Attribute Max level (Without runes or head gear) at 12. That way, more attribute points simply means you have more to put into the other fields you dont use because you have to concentrate on 2-3 attributes to be active.

Also, PVP characters would be able to get the extra points either by new creation or by using all that faction they have sitting around.

Accurax

Accurax

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Oct 2005

Ownington / OmgwtfpwnedsVille

Mo/Me

OK, I dont know too much about this game yet.... only been playing for a week.

However, I played Diablo 2 for 4 years (on and off).

Now, based on my personal experiance I am of the opinion that raising the level cap would be a pretty bad idea.

Gone are the days of the Secret Cow Level. (weeps).

How about we avoid turning GW into a meat grinder, and instead add more quests, more skills, more items, more monsters. and more professions.

You could allow PVe's to continue to "progress" there chars by offering a variety of quest rewards.

And you balance this by allowing PVP'ers to "cash In" divine favour for a wider selection of goodies.

Just seems to me that increasing the level cap would be selling out.

I like to roleplay and pVP and extra content is what i want... not dull, repetitive leveling.

Like i said i'm only a week old in this game. but... these are my opinions

Thanks for reading

Rozsda

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Oct 2005

Powermuff Girls

W/Mo

i vote no for level cap increase, 20 is fine.
what they could implement i think (and as was mentioned before) is new skills, maybe more types of armor (same stats as others just different look..u get it) new weapons for warriors (like spear or poleaxe...some other two-hander than just hammer) and of course new spells/quests...everything that GW already has...just more of it.
Also if you look at the weapons (warrior sword/axe/hammer and ranger bow) there is only one of each which looks cool (chaos axe, storm bow, dragon sword...etc) i wish to see more of such cool looking weapons.
Maybe the ability to dye armors totally red for example? Like the guild cape...base color and outline color..or what. Or not totally red..but more than now. Look at the 15k Platemail Armor...it barely differs from 1.5k, not much more space to dye. I think it could bring even more uniqueness for each player.

(i vote big yes for more, different looking armors..stats dont matter if same..just the looks!)

John Waffletord

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jul 2005

Baltimore, MD, USA

Theres no need for a change.. its balanced as it is now, if they double the level cap, they'd double everything else, and it would be balanced when they're done too. So why do all that work to get the same outcome but with bigger numbers?

Snowman

Snowman

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2005

Wales, UK

Devils Scorpions

W/E

I suppose in theory you could make it so that ONLY Role play characters can level up... and then get auto nerfed as they enter a pvp arena.

I disagree that you MUST increase the cap to pander for the PvE community, I played AD&D games since I was 7, I never got bored of them.. the level restriction on those is about 19/20....

ok, so some ad&d games you can go a few levels higher.. but the cap didnt make them boring. new monsters, new spells.. new stories, items, weapons, classes.. even different worlds... these are the things which keeps a game interesting. not its level..

leveling is usually only a means to experience those new things in any given game, whereas in guildwars its about getting to certain places and doing missions (like getting the pet spider in underworld)

Jetdoc

Jetdoc

Hell's Protector

Join Date: Jul 2005

The Eyes of Texas [BEVO]

D/A

I am for having 1-2 new 15 point attribute quests, to give a little more flexibility in attribute allocation (it would be nice to have 2 primary skills at lvl 12 without eliminating your secondary). I would much more for it if you were required to do those quests solo (like the doppleganger), to make those that get the points truly earn it.

Funk ee Monk ee

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jul 2005

Legendary Adventurers Guild [LAG]

I vote yes for lvl cap increase, perhaps to 25, with each lvl after 20 giving you a new 'point', call it Wisdom Points for this discussion.

One Wisdom Point buys you:

- x attribute points (5?)
- opening up another slot on your skillbar, 13 slots possible rather than 8, or 2 more slots for 5 WP's
- x hit points (3?)
- x mp (3?)
- 1 hp or mp regen for 5 WP's

I especially want to carry more skills with me. When playing Prot/smite monk I always have to sacrifice some useful skill to bring a res.

Raiin Maker

Raiin Maker

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2005

England

Blood On The Worlds Hands

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by calamitykell
Not according to ANet. 'Nuff said.

IF IT AIN'T BROKE, DON'T INCREASE THE MAX LEVEL JUST 'CAUSE YOU'RE BORED.
here here, i total agree. the max lv at 20 is a brillaint idea. it means thats people dont gain respect instantly for being a high level jerk. you have to be a nice person in this game to be respected.

lv 20 is fine, and who needs new attributes? just bring out more skills IMO.

Dax

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eet GnomeSmasher
Repeat after me. Higher levels do NOT equal better gaming. More skills and content IS better.

Higher levels does not equate to more diversity. That's crap.
Really huh, crap- that's a bit extreme. Dude, chill out they aren't going to do it.

What's the difference though grinding for skills or grinding for levels...lol there is none. They just changed the perception.

MSecorsky

MSecorsky

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2005

So Cal

The Sinister Vanguard

Me/

Quote:
Originally Posted by One and Two
A lot of people think that allowing level 40 would make it so that people would max out every single attribute, and there would be no decisions.

That's a load of crap, and you know it.

The current maximum of an attribute is 12+3+1 (16). Now, at level 40, you would have a base health of 880, if health continues to increase at the same rate. How on earth would a level 16 fire spell, doing 50 damage, be able to effect this uber level 40?

The answer plainly is, it can't. Either battles will have to become larger, and spikes are the only kills, or attacks need to become more powerful.
So you've already demonstrated why raising the level cap would be a bad idea. It would require the game to chance too much, and with a game this dependant on balance, chaos would ensue. Sure, you can have a max of 16 in an attribute. However, you cannot have 16 in every attribute! Double the attribute points and you'll have people with 16's in every of their primary attributes and 12 in some secondaries as well.

If you can't see the problems with this... well, dang.