Flame/Gaze Spike Team Build 'comments plz'

im not posting my build because i'm still testing it, and i don't wanna get flamed by people like you (unavoidable, apparently).

as for the "should" comment, i dont see why it needs to be there... that team was filled with bad players = they lost to an IWAY with an anti-IWAY build.

Quote:

my idea of a normal IWAY is 6 W/R (or one ranger who replaces a warrior), a tainted necro and an order necro (the necros are nuking too, with maelstrom probably).

a good group of monks, using a healing ball (the counter to IWAY) are a great counter to that build. as for nuking the ball, assuming the team uses TS, the leader should just say "left" or "right", and everyone runs as a group to that direction.

ill post my build, but im still working on it... i still think it can be very effective when ran in TS... as all good spike builds should:

1. healer mo/r:
heal area
healing seed
winter
hex removal spell
*rest are'nt as crucial as these four*

2. healer mo/e:
healing seed
spell breaker <e>
heal area
ward vs foes (optional)
hex removal spell
*rest aren't crucial*

3. life bonder mo/?:
life bond
balthasar's spirit
succor
blessed signet
aegis
RoF
mend ailement
martyr
*this buid is changable, i just use this build myself... so i'm used to it*

4. smiter mo/me
sig of judgement
mantra of signets
arcane mimicry
mantra of frost
banish
bane signet/balthasar's aura
smite hex
res sig/light of dwanya (this is a ball group, so one of the smiters should get light of dwanya imo).

5, 6, 7, 8 same as the smiter.


the idea:
ball up. if nuked, move together.
when the battle starts, the life bonder (who runs succor on the healers) gets seeded and spell breaker is put on him. this means that if *anyone* is damaged phisically, everyone is healed... this can only be removed by chillbanes (rare) and profane (a weakness for this build).
the spikers attack the biggest group of enemies they see (bunched up), and go mantra of sig - sig of judgement x2 (then mantra of frost). another move is going for a single target and doing sig of judgement - banish, for faster spiking.
spikers use arcane mimicry when they can, to open up another spike option...

if something like ignorance is put on a smiter, it needs to be removed asap (smite hex or something else).

winter needs to be on for mantra of frust to be effective (Emanagement and ele spike protection).

i think it is pretty solid:
smiters do not need energy, and they spike with an aoe spell (similar to FoC spiking).
the healing seed is almost guaranteed to last.
condition and hex removals are covered.
elemental damage is reduced by a lot, when winter is up.
the monks can spike three times in a row, possibly taking out a few targets for each spike (arcane mimicry, mantra of signets, signet of judgement).
if ward vs foes is up, the group can play with balthasar'a aura for more damage vs warriors.

the life bonder is protected well, as are the rest of the players.

EDIT:
almost forgot! maelstrom has no effect against the signets of the smiters...

what do you think?

Firstly, about the team i faced. It wasnt a healing ball, it was a lot of healing and protection, inspiration and smiting. Most of the team was me/mo, but its fairly similar in execution, just with better al and slightly less healing. In fact, tell truth, it wasnt iway that i beat it with. I had been running iway all night, but this group was one of those random euro pugs where you just get 8 people and go. Which puts the build down even further tbh. They spiked our air ele, and then in the 15s waiting for the recharge, we killed around 4 of them who were ressed. They then spiked again on a monk who was ressed, and we then killed another 6 of them, with their resses running low/gone - they were quite focused smiters, and had quite good coordination. However, healing touch proved too much for them, and after a half hearted final third spike we finished them off. We had 2 mo/e, 1 mo/me, 1 w/r, 1 w/mo, 1 r/e, 1 e/me, and a me/n. I still had a pet and no ias beyond iway, since they didnt let me change my skills.

As for your build, a few obious starters:

- Winter will get owned the second its seen.
- mo/r has no decent energy management.... draw conditions meladrus might work against trap teams and so on, but i still think its a bit crap. Heal area is also not great.
- mo/e also has no reasonable energy management that isnt going to get rended to hell.
- why spellbreaker? most teams are warrior or ranger orientated, unless im missing something. Its not worth it just to cover healing seed tbh.
- life bonds dont work against people who know what enchantment removal is. Succor wont be enough for the rest of your team really. In my team, im taking bip as just enough :S
- 'spike' is defined as enough damage to kill in the space of less than a second. That means, and i assumed at the start, that all of your char are taking sig of judgement, since even at level 16 smiting you still need 7 peole to actually make a spike. (assuming 500 health, 16 smite gives 79 damage, 500/79 = 6.3... thats 7 total, since otherwise they would have some health left) You have 5, which isnt going to spike anyone, Since judgement has a 2s casting time in the time it takes for you to cast it the second time the enemy should be back to full health or the enemy monks should be shot.
- arcane mimicry has a 60s cooldown. Whats to do in the time in between?
- against a good team healing seed will be a mere annoyance.
- apart from that, you dont really have anything id call a 'healer' and so eveyone is going to die. really fast.

as for your 'reasons its solid':

- at least foc kills them
- balthazars aura, banish, mantra and mimicry all need energy
- winter wont be up
- they wont take out anyone

EDIT: I noticed this the second i exited: mantra of frost and mantra of signets are both stances arent they? Thats a real drain on energy to maintain sporadic prot and crappy and sporadic energy management.

nothing constructive... but here goes:

- winter isn't a neccesity, it just help with E management and with protection. it will be near the group, so warriors wont be able to get to it, since the smiters are there.
- mo/r and mo/e are both succored by the life bonder, and are both healers, so there are "healers".
- the healing seed on the life bonder, makes the group almost invulnerable for the entire duration. he is life bonding, so anyone who is attacked gets the life bonder "damaged", which feeds the healing seed. spell breaker keeps the life bond up...
- an enemy team cant remove all of the life bonds, and those can be recast quite easilly.
- you attack a group of, say, 3 enemies. 5x79, that means all take 395 damage. the smiters follow up with banish, main target dies, two left with low health. all in 1 second exactly.
- as for arcane mimicry, it is there to give you another charge of soj, to have quicker kills. in between you use your ordinary charges of soj, banish and bane sig/balth.
- if most groups consist of warriors and rangers (your words, not mine), if an attack will cause, say 80 damage (most do less damage), then it wil do 40 due to life bond. then all players in the group wil gain 25 health (i think that is it). that means that that character took 15 damage, and the rest of the group gained health. the target can be easily healed as well...
- the mo/e and the mo/r are healers. the ward vs foes isnt neccesary, and it leaves each monk 4 slots for healing spells, one being heal area.

as for why it's solid:
- this, just like FoC spiking, kills them.
- energy which is gined through mantra of frost. in addition, they have time to regain energy while using the signets. balthasar's aura won't be used much, if at all... it is not the main damage dealing skill in the build.
- winter will be up at some times, and killing it wil mean getting through the smiters. if a team is that anxious to kill the spirit, then let them... they are not killing the core of this build, and they are getting closer and into the smiter's range.
- once again... they will take out enemies...

as for the two mantras:
mantra of frost only needs to be used if the enemy is using more than a couple of elementaists, and when they are using them, the protection won't be crappy...
the entire winter-mantra of frost combo isn't neccesary, it just helps against ele spikers. in most battles you won't need them, but i think its nice to have the option...

i said the build is still under development, and you seem to look at it as a finished build.
i dont have enough chances to try this build out, because it's too complex for a PUG, and my guild does not have enough monks.
this build can be changed, but this is a general idea...

i kind of like the build actually...just i would make whomever is taking spell breaker use blessed aura...that life bonder needs to stay up as long as possible

also...a simple skill that will destroy this: signet of wariness

well, the smiters don't need energy, so that only hurts the life bonder and the healers...

what really hurts this is primal echoes and rust, because they are on all the party members...

but every build has a counter... imagine this against FoC spiking 20 seconds and its gg...

The problem is: you need to ball up. And to beat balls is easy.

The spike is nice and it works - but the ball up thing destroys it IMHO

if by beating a ball you mean nuking and aoe attacks, that is a weakness for this build...
but a good team using TS or vent can quickly react and move to the left or to the right.
also, speels like meteor shower and maelstrom take a long time to cast (glyph of sacrifice ftw), so something like soj will interrupt them (this means aiming at the possible nukers).

edit:
the winter + mantra of frost cuts the nuking almost in half... that is another reason to use that.

Nice build however It might fall to my own build
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=74121
The reason being is that area of effect of 100 blades attack may greatly destroy your team and also life bond might redirect a lot of that area of effect to you and might kill you fast.

However I could be wrong and you counter Warrior stuff might greatly hurt us.

- succor is nowhere near enough energy management. The average monk simulates via energy management skills about 2-3 extra pips of energy. and yes, it is a lot of difference. If you only needed one extra pip, i would use peace and harmony and take /e secondaries for wards, and /w secondaries for watch yourself! and all kind of weird stuff. However, it isnt, so either I use bip or i use /me.
- you say only use winter against ele teams.... then you go on to say that the spirit will be protted against warriors since your smiters will stand next to it. Surprisingly, a team containing several eles will just nuke the spirit to hell the second, i mean the second its seen. Its also very bad energy management. If the other team attacked each of your smiters with mantra of frost individually, then of course your going to win, because they suck. And then youd get good energy management. However, they will spike one target, meaning that most of your players get zilch.
- Healing seed does not, i repeat not, make the team invunerable. If i see healing seed, its either swap targets (which granted doesnt work here) or stand around and wait for it to fall off. But wait, swapping targets does work due to my amazing next point:
- your enchants are going to get ripped up. No, they arent easily recast. I play a lifebonder a lot, and its frankly hassle putting maintained's back on targets, although i always get away with it. Whats going to happen is:

- battle begins, you run in. O look, an ele, put up winter! *winter spirit gets nuked* O noes!, there goes half our prot and energy managment. *rend happens* o noes, there goes succor, life bond on a target!, thats a 4s recast + aftercast! *teammate gets spiked, and since your prot monk is casting maintained enchants he cant rof or prot spirit, meaning said teammate gets it in the face* *if he doesnt recast and goes for a rof, then your maintained's are effectively wasted since they arent on them, and its down to a prot monk vs a spike. Frankly, most teams prot monk is not good enough to stop that. Even if they are, the situation has now degraded into as i said, prot monk vs spike team, and constant pressure will eventually lead to you loosing... why? Because they wont let you have life bond on the target, theyll focus on him, meaning the life bond isnt triggering any energy for you, meaning eventually your prot monk will have no energy, and the next time they spike the target will simply buckle. Rinse and repeat.
- As for your spike: 'Prot Spirit' is all that needs to be said. a team without enchantment removal is a crap team except for pure gaze spikers i think, which kill regardless.

as for a few other points:

- using signets is not energy management. Its simply wasting time.
- why the hell do you have a skill your not going to use much? If you have redundent skills your frankly punching yourself in the stomach... there is always something you can put in, there is never a time when you can say 'well theres nothing i really need', unless your blind
- they wont take out jack without a lot of luck


basically, your entire team gets rolled by enchantment removal and warriors/rangers.. o yeah and eles, since unless they are actually water (a big gamble) winter is.... i dont think you understand how fast it will get owned. It also gets owned by a man who can press 'prot spirit' since you have no enchantment removal<<<

any chance of some comments on op ?

i commented to op in my first reply, kinda

here we go again:
- energy management is up to you really, if you want to use bip, go ahead. 5 pips of energy is better than 4, and it does help.
- most teams have a warrior for relic runs, and for an ele to nuke winter (which is behind the group), he will have to come really close to the group. if he does take winter out, he is still going to die, since the smiters will take him out.
- a team cannot rend two targets unless they use two enchantement removers (most teams do not). this means that they might kill one target (rending + spiking), but the rest are still bonded and will trigger the seed.
- a protector can recast the life bond, and then the seed will get triggered. if you want, the protector can put prot spirit instead of something there (restore conditions instead of martyr, or instead of aegis).

- as for prot spirit against my spike: the spike is aoe, 2 or more characters should get damaged, so something will die (you follow with banish).

- signet isn't energy management, it reduces the smiter's need for energy. in addition, sig of judgement is the way this build attacks, so it isnt wasting time...
- if you do not like the winter+mantra combo, don't use it! you can switch it for anything you want, i just thought it is a nice idea, since you already are part mesmer.
- the damage is sufficiant to kill a character, and since it is aoe, the 2-3 characters that are attacked cant all be healed and protected, so you could even double cast the sig, and at least one character should drop.

- if you want enchantement removal, be my guest. have the mo/e be /n and get him to rend someone.
- if you really hate winter, frozen soil is an option (i know... it's a spirit).

i think this build has the potetial to take hoh. it is only weak in relic runs...

as for the 1000 blades, your build will actually heal my team for any hundered blades attack:
say you hit 4 characters with hundred blades, with 2 W/E and 2 W/Mo.
this means five attacks were made per hundred blades. 10 of those feed the healing seed.
say you hit for 60 damage per swing. the W/Mo will do 30 damage.
now i dont wanna calculate, cause i dont wanna but everyone in the monk team will be healed for 250 health aprox. yes, there is the orders and the conjures, but the damage should be healable.
in addition, you warriors will be close together - good targets for the smite.

* bangs head on table * actually, youve contributed nothing, youve just given me high blood pressure (-.-) and jacked my thread with...this:

- ok... lets use bip.... where are you going to put it? it cant go on the smiters since they're using inspir and smite skills, and if you put it on a healer they cant use it on themselves. If you want to use two copies of bip then you loose either martyr or spell breaker, and a) you loose breaker, you have no 'ub4h combo' and so i rend your healing seeder, spike him, and your gone 'gg'. b) no martyr, you run into a condition team and you loose.

Whatsmore, i was talking gvg, and you came in and posted tombs build. Even MORE unrelated. In tombs, when i have enough people, im going to flood it with hench teams and then stroll into hoh via superiority of numbers and better skill sets -.-

- im sorry, what? your team is ranged, so it doesnt matter where the other team stand. Have you created some aura of death that means standing within 50 feet means instant death? Balth aura might be a point, but frankly you said you dont use it yourself (and if you do ill raise the point that you dont have enough energy management). Having one warrior does not mean that your spirit is immune, people usually have more than one damage source. And whatsmore, you said the warrior is a flag/relic runner. Not only is this a crap class for runner, it means he has nothing to do with the battle, so whats that got to do with the spirit?

- They rend one target ( most people carry *shock* more than one copy of rend, and if they dont they deserve to loose), kill him, and dont hit anyone else! the fact that lifebond is on everyone else is COMPLETELY MEANINGLESS. You seem to be missing that point. 10s later, another target gets rended and also dies.

- Of course he can recast, but its a 2s casting time. The point i made is that in those 2s the target your lifebonding will be dead. More specifically, he'll be dead in 1s. And, the other point you glossed over, is that there is noone else on your team with prot skills, so the target your currently lifebonding has zero chance of survival.

- people dont stand right next to each other. You might hit one other person if your very lucky, but aside from healing balls it is just not going to happen. Dont bother to refute that, its a fact beyond idiots.

- The amount of energy gained from using a signet is merely the amount of time you dont spend casting. This is small, and so its frankly pointless to talk about it.

- Its not a nice idea. What do you propose instead? I know, how about some real energy management?

- Relying on it being aoe is stupid. Its a very small area and the one target you do go for will be protted. Spike negated.

- you want to give enchant removal to a healer? Your not going to be able to have high curses since you already need other attributes high, and so if that is the monk getting spiked your actually going to half kill yourself, which they will no doubt capitalize on. Whatsmore, its a 3s casting time in which your not casting, you will only have one copy of, and although its slighty niche your likely to be interrupted anyway.

- Why have a spirit at all? Its going to die. Even in pugs we manage to take them all out if i spam call it enough. :/

Any chance of some actual criticism on the op for the xth time? And a reason why its still reasonable to use warrior spike when at current one character can take out 3 with reasonable ease?

Quote:

No, i meant that say if you used 3 warriors, which is really the maximum amount, one guy could still disable all of them to a large degree. Whether you actually use 3 warriors is besides the point.

Quote:

Sigh, buggy ie again deleted my long post.

I know what warrior spike is and what it contains in general. However, most teams dont prepare/dont bother to compete with the level of shutdown on warriors that can exist, even higher level teams. Even if they do (which is quite a compromise in caster levels) stuff like humility can knock big chunks out of warrior spike, as you well know.
In terms of amount of spiking the above team is fairly similar to a warrior spike, but instead of shutdown it relies on unpredictablity but still keeps large amounts of enchant removal/hex removal. In a game where atm everyone is prepared to run into warriors/warrior-based teams it could be argued this is stronger since it isnt prepared for very much. Maybe im wrong, but id like some reasons (you aint gonna give em though )

Makes no difference. Look specifically at the things that will shut a warrior down. They are neither complete shutdowns nor are they particularly easy to use. Soothing images costs a lot and takes a long time to cast. Same problem with Shadow of Fear. Condition shutdowns aren't reliable. Counters are rife.

I'm still not sure you're fully understanding what I mean when I say most warrior spikes aren't really about the warriors. Mass hexing/disrupting/interrupting works on anybody. Backfire/Shame/Whatever not only works on the necro/mesmer screwing over the warrior, it also works on monks, eles, mesmers...loladins >.> This is in no way a compromise in caster levels. In essence, the warriors are there to provide the final poke when the enemy's already been thoroughly abused by your casters.

Warriors are versatile. You might be able to shut down evisc/exe with a signet of humility, but thats not gonna stop him chucking out a few hundred points of damage even without. Axes get continually high damages even without any skills, looking at your IWAY groups, you can get 100+ dmg using no skills, just normal attacks under 2 enchants and 1 spirit. He can spike, but he can also switch to dps, he can easily switch targets, he can run about without needing to ball.

By contrast in this "spike" your mo/e can do 94 damage every what...15-30 seconds by your guess...in doing so he sacrifices a portion of his healing power and all of his energy management. I would also refute that most people are prepared against good warrior spikes. To be prepared against that is to be prepared against not only 2 warriors but an array of anti-caster and anti-melee tricks, disenchants and disruption that your 3 casters can throw out at any time. People now are prepared against IWAY. This is not representative in any way.

By contrast are you saying people will somehow be surprised that you're using casters? Hexing normal monks is no different to hexing your monks. Mass interrupting, energy draining. No I'd say people have been prepared against this build right from the start.

Actually, passing the ungainliness, images and shackles puts a warrior down. No adrenaline and no energy... well that’s anyone screwed, but given some fast casting and decent energy management, it can be done to a level where its not 100%, but then again it doesn’t need to. Especially if you have visage, which means if you slow adren intake to a snails pace, then hit visage, spiking can be almost slowed to a stand still.

I agree conditions are bull, but against the scrubs enfeebling blood spam/enfeeble/blinding flash bot/crippling shot can actually put them down- A topic for another day’s discussion perhaps.

When i was talking about compromise in caster levels i was talking about the requirements for hex removal, since most ingrained removes like inspired on monks don’t have the balls to keep your team clean... at some stage against someone with a wand and a bit of dedication compromises are going to have to be made if you don’t want hexes over your primary damage dealers. As for the idea that your casters are going to have done significant amounts of damage, I know what you mean; warrior spike is more than just hitting them hard. However against an instantaneous spike (I’m going to assume the players on either a warrior team or the flame/gaze team know what they’re doing) it doesn’t matter how screwed the enemy protection monk is (for example). Either they hit the rof or they don’t, and against a perfect spike (against assuming its done right) we all know they can’t. All warrior teams do is shaft them to make it less likely they’ll hit the rof, which is unnecessary (perhaps), whereas monk spike has superior defenses in place of this shutdown, since if they do hit the spike right, we all know it’s not possible to hit the rof at all. (As for monk dps; they’ve got wands right )

In general, dps doesn’t win games, spike does. Against for example the above team, i would say that its one of the few teams that can match iway dps with hps toe for toe, if anyone can, which is one of the exceptions where dps can just steamroller over people.

The spike is more than every 15s. Energy-flame-flame-energy-flame is the 15s cycle, that’s 3 spikes per 30s, or 1 every 10s on average. That’s more than reasonable, and warrior’s actual damage spike comes on similar terms. As i said above, I’m fairly sure spike is what you need to win, and in this monk team that means the only thing I’ve bothered with IS spike, and the spike is equal to warriors in terms of killing, and the level of enchantment stripping is also equal roughly to warrior teams. All that’s really happened is I’ve taken away the dps aspect of the team of warriors, left the spike, and put in a crap load of defensive skills, in the hope that 5 copies of rof and so on is going to mean my team is protected fully against whatever the other team throws at you. You cannot deny that the monk team has better defense against hex and general caster inflicted caster hate, aside from stuff that there isn’t much to do about (interrupts and so on – which are rare anyway)

Just for a second, I’d like to compare what the healing abilities of my team are against a normal 2 healer / 1 protection monk team.

Normal Team
Just say, 1 Boon Healer with orison, other, boon, and touch, 1 kiss healer, (same but with kiss for boon), and a standard protection monk:

Stats for the Healers:
Divine Favor: 11+1
Healing: 10+4
Inspiration: 10

Boon Healer:

Orison: 67 + 36 +61 = 164
Other: 170 + 36 + 61 = 267
Touch: 129 (inc. Bonus) + 61 = 190

Kiss Healer:

Orison: 67 + 36 = 103
Other: 170 + 36 = 206
Touch: 129 (inc. Bonus)

Then the Protection monk heals for 36 per cast, x amount on rof, then 66 per other condition on mend ailment.

Against the monk team above:

Boon Healer:

Rof: Variable (up to 32 only) + 36 + 61 = 97 + variable
Other: 141 + 36 + 61 = 238
Touch: 181 (inc. bonuses)

There are three of these guys, and they’re healing is actually fairly similar to your above, solo, boon healer. I don’t think there has been any compromise on healing, in fact there seems to have been a simple increase of a couple of times. (The lesser healing, but healer x three… I’m erring on caution)

As for the kiss healer, there is no comparable on my team, its all boon. But to include it, I’ll show the other non-healer non-protection monks:

Hex Remover: 45 + 70 = 115 per cast of…whatever. Also has a 260hp divine healing, with divine favor and boon bonus triggering on only himself (I assume)

Prot Spirit Bot: 30+ max 70 variable heal on rof, 30 on protective spirit

Party Healer: 67 heal party; don’t know what happens with divine favor and boon bonus here. A 193 Divine Healing, and +25 health on seed.
Boon Protection Dodger: 30+ 55 + 61 per other condition on mend ailment, 30+55 on draw, 30+55 on guardian.

That’s everyone, except the Favor bonus on holy veil on the monk warrior and the divine healing, but that’s negligible. Somehow, a team like that does not come across as having compromised on healing.

In terms of energy management, BiP is the best in the game. I know when we played ta a while back and I was bipping, you only had unlimited energy due to oob on top of that, but that was since I wasn’t running bip on you the whole time. Whatsmore, I don’t need unlimited energy, I need enough. The standard monk healer uses their elite and several skill slots for energy management, and achieves around +3 pips. This team has half the team using their elites for damage complementing, and the other skills (not even as many – that’s why resurrection signet is everywhere) for more protection (wards). BiP on the mo/n gives 5 pips, 2 more than a decked out inspiration monk. There is no energy issue in this team.

Obviously, people cant be ready to counter everything that a team can throw at them, stopping interrupts, hexes, enemy enchantments, pure damage, dots, conditions, and full blown locks like knock down, blackout, and power block are un-scope-able. However, a team like the one above can comfortably deal with mass hexes, dots, conditions, pure damage. It drops off a little at enemy enchantments and interrupts, and of course everyone falls at kd and so on, since generally its not worth it.

Whatsmore, take the example of shame on a monk. Normal teams go: ‘o noes, shame, get a hex removal fast fast fast’ in this team, the hex removal is massive, and If its put on the hex remover, it could even be the situation that he just casts past it, and watches his energy bar rocket back up with bip on. A normal team, would actually be a little bit screwed (although shame isn’t on the level of ‘owned’) this team could potentially ignore a lot of hexes if it so felt in the mood.

I’m not saying people will be surprised to see 8 monks, I’m saying, like above, most people don’t bring enough anti-caster to stop 8 casters. Obviously, when most people then use 8 casters, there is a mix of roles, like 4 eles, 1 necro, 3 monks, and so it becomes obvious who to cast it on: the monks: once the monks drop, be leisurely with the rest of them. The above team however, has 8 monks, more or less all capable of healing. So if you come prepared for 3 monks, you take out three, then the other 5 are still able to run until the others are back in action. Unless you bring a crap load of anti casters there will usually always be someone capable of stopping you from killing the target.

‘Mass Interrupting’ – Rare. Works against anyone- Mass interrupts is lots of rangers, and frankly you and I both know how possible it is to distract whatever the other team bring; eviscerate, signet of devotion, heal other- all are taken down by mass interrupting.
‘Energy Draining’ – Strong, but against bip it has difficulties. Even a debil spammer might let a few spells past against bippers, and apart from that and weariness spam (which I have never actually seen), the only other thing now energy drain and all that has been nerfed is energy surge, which is spike energy denial, and again doesn’t do much against bip.

So no, I would say people are prepared against casters, but not against 8 monks, and there is a difference.

Just to put it into reference on to what people often bring, here is a few links:

iQ vim! Build: They said it’s outdated, and a few things like naked debilitating shot are, but vim teams have made a return.
http://www.guild-hall.net/forum/showthread.php?t=27863
You may note how there is no anti-caster here beyond debilitating shot (now nerfed), one copy of distract, one copy of diversion (now nerfed) and fear me (nerfed)/weariness, which is average. That sir is reasonable, but it’s not enough to take down 8 monks in terms of shutdown.

Negative Zero: SoH JI Build quite similar to the warrior spike I know you’re thinking about, but with a few changes:
http://www.guild-hall.net/forum/showthread.php?t=27635
Has no anti-caster to speak of beyond enchantment stripping (applies to everyone), and kd chain, which again is universal.

Here is one build from FnlD, I don’t know whether they run it, but these guys have probably got a better chance of winning than the two above:
http://www.guild-hall.net/forum/show...t=30183&page=2
That my man, is 4 power blocks: S. I would think the monk team could easily rof past wastrels worry, but I’m not going into the gory details of this vs that. But I suppose this is just me>mo as it should be.