The reason why level cap should NOT be raised.

Are you privy to info that we are not?

Do you know that Chap2 will only include "a couple more maps"?

Would the ability to have level 20 + X where x is every level up past 20 show up and the only value it has is bragging rights and the amount of skill points you earned past 20 aka no other benefits other then bragging / and show how much you play your character.

I would also love to see a new style of unique armor that can only be done (like fow and 15k, not added benefits) via challenging quests that can't be traded nor the items if needed to get the.

I see. Good points.

What do you think we could do to give those who like grind the satisfaction to do so, whilst not making it unfair for the casual players?

Thanks!

i might make a quick note of the following games all at the same price as GW (and the 50 dollar chapter 2)

FABLE THE LOST CHAPTERS

high scores happy players and the only complaint of the reviewers was a 14-15 hour play time.

THE LATEST DOOM

finish in less than 25 hours getting great happy review from reviewers and players

HALF LIFE 3?

25-35 hours and fantastic reviews with happy players

GUILDWARS?

100/200/400/800+ hours with most of those still enjoying the game.

my character has over 800 hours and i am starting a new character which is fun and looks promising.

if people are happy with a games you finish in 15 hours up to 30 hours how can people be complaining about a game that gives so much more enjoyment at the same price.

just as there are PVP people and PVE people there are also FPS/RTS ADVENTURE /ETC

these are different buyers from you and just because you personally dont see chapter 2 being a success by your game play style that doesnt mean that others may not see it in a different light and happily (knowing what they are buying) buy it and be happy with their purchase


EDIT FOR ABOVE

i am thinking of cosmetic items from separate items you can wear in cities (dress up if you will) so everybody can see them won by heroic quests to other visable but not game balance upsetting ideas.

what do you think about glowing jewelry of all gem colors won at great effore or great cost in gold.

glowing red ruby fire necklace that does nothing but look good?

glowing green emerald earings?

rings of all colors?

belts of visable devine favor?

just a few thoughts

Actually, quite the opposite, and is the whole point of my argument the entire thread.

But I've read posts by players within this community that state "Oh, I'll just be happy if all we get are more Tombs maps and a couple more skills". I'm fairly certain that they might not feel that way if they had to shell out nearly $60 bucks for it. Even two new professions with all new skills and weapons, and a PVE area the same size as the first, may not justify the expenditure of the same amount as the first. In the first chapter, we got 4 professions, about 400 skills, an entire world (and additional areas later for free), events, ladders, competition maps and arenas, artwork, armors, and items numbering in the hundreds if not thousands. In order for the customer to feel they are getting the same value, the next chapter should be comparable. Since we're not going to get nearly as many new professions, or skills, that "value" must be made up elsewhere. The size of the world won't really be all that much different, perhaps just the same amount of included content as maps, arenas, quests, etc). Each profession will get new artwork, weapons, items, materials and skills. but that's half of what we got the first time. If the percieved value of the current professions doesn't change, then there isn't much else to look forward to?

If they simply add some cool looking weapons that give nothing more than what we currently have, where is the value in that? If the skills don't add some sort of "awesome" factor to them, why bother? As I said, having yet another healing spell, degen spell, or AOE spell that does the same amount of damage - yet simply looks "different" then it's just a waste of time.

Take a look at the "green" items you can get from SF. Just a horse of a different color. They add nothing to the gameplay. They are coveted simply because they are "new" but honestly they aren't any better than what I could get from a collector.

My point is, it has to be beyond just "more of the same with different artwork" or it's value isn't going to be there, at least for me, and perhaps for the other "casual" players. Especially since I bought two copies of this game, and would have to weigh my options very carefully if I'm not going to get anything outstanding next time.

Well, again, that's why I state that just cosmetic stuff isn't going to cut it. We currently have long swords, gladius', crystaline, fellblade, forked...man, i can't even think of all of them. When maxxed out, they ALL do the same thing. The same damage. Maybe one swings faster than another, but inveriably there will be several of those swords with the same speeds. The only thing that makes them "different" are the mods, and when all is said and done, the amount of damage that 500K sword does isn't really any different from one with slightly lesser stats that sell for a tenth of the cost. When you're whacking on a dragon do you think it really matters if you're doing 45 or 47 points of damage (it doesn't). So you kill the dragon in 4.5 minutes instead of 4.7. When you're fighting major monsters (ones that are several levels higher than you) that have 800-1000+ HPs, 1-2 damage is meaningless, even over time.

So, does that mean we're doomed to the same numbers? That every sword does 15-22 damage, that every fireball does 110 if your attribute is at it's maximum? That degen will never take off more than 10 "pips"? If that's the case, then why bother?

I know, it's all ultimately cosmetic. It's that way now. When you first start, you're attacking lvl 1 monsters, that do 2-3 damage, and you have 15HPs. When you're at level 20, the mosnters hit you for 80+ damage against your 500HPs. It doesn't matter. If that's the case, why bother to even HAVE levels? The only real thing that changes is the complexity of the game - yet with only 8 slots on your skill bar, you're even limited to that aspect. And if you're like most players, you're down to 6, because you're carrying a cap and rez signet once you ascend. In PVP, it then becomes to distributing all of hte various spells and counterspells across the entire party, just to cover your ass if you run into a team that does something unexpected.

Like I said, the purchase reasons have to be compelling, not just cosmetic. One compelling reason is to bump up the level cap. One other would be to add new weapons and items that increase the damage, or add mods that increase the damage or usefulness of items. The rewards needs to be greater for the next chapter - fighting yet another pack of griffons (now reskinned and called something else) that does the same attacks and damage isn't gonna be enough. Certainly, some cosmetic changes (jewelry, for example), auras (to take a page from D2, adding a "glow" to an armor set when you're quested to collect special armor "set items". I dunno. It just has to be "more".

Yeah they're not trying to put you off the game, this is true. BUT they're not trying to force you to play it every day either. As its not pay to play, having 500000 people on every hour, every day is gonna eat into their profits far more than having 50000 on one hour, then a different 50000 on in a few hours.

um... its too late in the day to read all the others lol. But anyway, someone (loviator maybe?) said it perfectly earlier. Guild Wars is trying to be different. I too love high levels. But nearly every RPG and MMO out there do that. Level 50, level 99, level 200. And I love doing that. But if I want high levels I play Sacred, or Diablo or Baldurs Gate. If I want strategy and balance, I play GW. NO other game would I consider PvP. Because its all "omg i have teh uber weapon and teh max lvl" *bang I'm dead*. In this game, I actually stand a chance at winning just by changing my strategy. I don't want that ruined.

edit: ok so i read 'em all

1st off: I'm gonna assume Chapter 2 is adding story content. Chapters in books advance stories. If it was just a new area or two they'd do it as an exclusive download for $10 or something stupid. *shrugs* New skills would be good. We're also getting 2 new proffessions (or so they've said).

2nd: Quest rewards that are very hard would be great. Something that even with 8, super organised people, at level 20, working well together with strategy is STILL hard. Remember how many problems people used to have with Glint? At once time the forum was filled with "omg we got her down to x health before dying... has anyone managed to kill her yet?!". Something as hard as that used to be (but it stays that hard). And then maybe you get some aura, or a staff (no dmg merely decorative) or something like that. You can go into town and say "look, i completed this quest!" and everyone is in awe. Thats far more inspiring than "Look at me, I managed to grind for 79 hours and reach lvl 40!"

I got fed up with this game for a while. I played the last beta and was addicted. First month of release, I couldn't get enough of it. Then... 2 months of ignoring it. I played other stuff. BUT I came back to it. Now i play maybe 2 hours a night and maybe 5 or 6 hours on a Sat/Sun if we're not doing anything else. I have 2 accounts. I have one char who's finished the game. She has one piece of 15k armour from Marhans. I have another char who's at Auroras Glade. All my others are still in pre or post Ascalon. I haven't been run anywhere. I haven't grinded. I rarely farm (other than a few SF runs with a mate, which is for fun more than the drops). I only went to UW for the first time yesterday.

I don't consider myself a casual gamer. The opposite, I spend WAY too much time on computers And yet I still have plenty to do. I don't do every quest, but I do most. And playing for those few hours a day, it's probably gonna take me at least another 2 weeks to get my char from Aurora's to finishing the game, assuming I play exclusively with her. Sure, I *could* do it in a week. I could probably complete Black and White in a couple days now if i wanted. But that game has lasted me 4 years But when you rush things like that then of course you're gonna spoil them for yourself. I've done it myself.

Course one thing for me is that though I love high levels, I love builds. The other game I mainly play, Sacred, lets you get to 216. But I constantly restart on that, because I like to make new builds. The best thing about GW is that you can just think "I'm bored with hammers. Let's try out swords!" without going through hours of leveling up.

Yeah I can understand peoples frustrations, but seriously, if levels mean so much, play something like Diablo when you really want the thrill of leveling. When you want to beat the heck outta someone, go play Counterstrike. And when you want to use brains over brawn, play Guild Wars.

Oh and over the whole time since its been out I only have about 250hrs. Seriously. You guys with 800+ play something else hehe.

i honestly think anybody who wants a level cap increase should just go play another game that has higher levels. i mean, its a free market. its called capitolism, use it please. you bought guild wars, you knew it had a cap of level 20 (unless you didnt research it, in which case you deserve to be stuck with it). why should they change the product when there are other products that have what you want and this product has what they (anet) and most of us want?

True, but they are open to our thoughts. That is one part that is cool about this company!

exactly.

from the start (even in the betas) people wanted (and still want) things to customize their toon.

the swords all have one thing in common which is they vanish in town so the only people you can show off for are the people you go out with.

my ideas (similar to possibilities made by Gaile) about the glowing jewelry and town clothing would be seen by and show offable to everybody.

example is the glow from the collectors edition on emotes.

if that were only visible to party members when you went out from a town and it vanished when you got back and wanted to show it off people would be very unhappy with it

Why shouldn't they advocate for a change they'd find favorable? Player feedback drives changes in many games. It isn't any different than advocating for the status quo when you get right down to it. Yes, the game isn't currently like that, but that hardly means wanting a change is invalid any more than wanting the status quo IS valid.

Just because you may disagree with it doesn't mean it's unreasonable. This applies to both camps.

i wouldn't want the level cap raised because leveling up is boring. i prefer to level up fast, then be done with it to worry about things like skills and armor.

Ill get to your later posts later, its late


Because there free, and great. apart from some diehard fans no-one would pay for them nowdays, maybe years ago but not now.
Starcratf is a rts d2 a hack and slash cs a fps different breeds of games as well.
Like i said that is nothing like the average player, i have a guild of 70 people and none of them try and do that, (i know some couldnt timewise and some just dont).
But thats just what all the others do, if all your saying is that GW should be like all the others to sucseed, then alot of current GW "may" just go away to the others it would be copying.

Also the pvp side means that items HAVE to be balanced, and again not being able to kill "the big boss" in 1 or 2 hits MAKES you think of how to change your build.

I dont agree with this at all being in a very mixed guild, can you show me some data agreing with this as it sounds like personal opionoin.
This isnt D2. Again this is a team based game, why turn it into another clone. And again, if it tried to copy other games i would go for them, why play a copy?

Yes and the RPG genre has not always been about pointless level grinding, but story / challenge / as well as items and leveling. Also what do you think the RPG genre has always been about?
Have you ever played baldars gate or planescape, both RPGs that had fecking brilliant stories, they where not about leveling.

Hers the problem, your assuming the expansion will fail before its even release. We do not know what they will come with it, only that they are trying to do something better with it than, add more items more grind but more "content"
There are people like you (im not trying to sound asshatish here, so bear with me), who want it to be like wow, eq, and d2. No real teamwork but a solo game, all about leveling up and ubar items, what else do they have to offer? if guildwars was to become there clone, then what would be the point of it at all. If it was the same as them, i would just leave it for the most popular/best one of the bunch.

Just like skills then.

Also in half life you get better with your own skills.

Now you keep bringing up d2, and thats a good one for me as its another one i played so i can relate.
But they are 2 completly different playing styles, this game is all about teamplay, once you reach level 20 most people still go on just to "win" the missions. d2 was really just about hitting something till it died and getting good items to make you more powerfull, try do that in GW and your prob another noobish w/m, and ii only go back to D2 it because it is free.

I would not touch d2 with a very long barge pole if i had to pay a monthly suscription for it, so in that case is it still succsesfull?

I understand some of your points, and ill look at later posts later. But essentily so far you have descriped turning it into any other online RPG, and i really dont see the point as if thats what i wanted to play id be playing them already.

I like the fact that i am usefull in any team, and not either severly overpowerd above all others making them useless. Or just someone tagging along while the level 99 kills everything.

I strongly remember reading about Chapter 2 will contain as much content as chapter 1. I so wish I can find that link now

Anet releases the game and as long as they maintain sales (and get normal drop off for people who quite playing - I think they factored this in) and enough stuff in each chapter that cause existing players + new players to buy it is the whole game plan. They do want to keep people (for to buy the next chapter) and get new players.

If GW lasts say 3+ chapters (I think it will). A brand new player that pick up the GW "collected" set will have so much more stuff to do then us that started with chapter 1 and the content will hold them much longer and they will reach a point that they can do a new chapter while most are still not "maxed" out the game with all that you can do.

here is a perfect example of why the lvl cap should NOT be increased.

lvl 17 N/Mo

skills

spiteful spirit
banish
bane sig
balth aura
symbol of wrath
mark of pain
paracidic bond
vengance

15 curse
7 soul reaping
8 smiting

i'm in thristy river looking for a group. i can put out a constant 60-90 dmg per second aoe dmg. i find someone looking for a nuker. i msg them for an invite and tell them what i'm using. he responds "you are lvl 17. get to lvl 20 then come back."

increasing the lvl cap will only encourage and cause more of this same behavior. it didn't matter that i would do more aoe dmg than any echo nuker. my lvl 17 seemed to be the only thing that mattered. a lvl cap numericly will do NOTHING. the higher lvls means more dmg ouput, high def armor, and more life. that doesn't change the fact that you are doing xx% of their total life it will still be the same no matter how you look at it.

Unfortunately, I'd attribute that to average player intelligence, rather than level cap.
My monk was accepted in the crystal missions at level 13....nobody complained.

lol this is true, one and two. And unfortunately, there are enough of these kinda people without having an even higher lvl cap for them to be biased against I can see it now "omg you're only lvl 35, come back when you're 50!"

Well, in my experience, the draw to Diablo II wasn't leveling, as I said, you could get to lvl 90 in one day with help. It wasn't about that, it was about *stuff*. Yes, it's diametriclly opposite from GW - GW is about "skill".

But again, there can only be so many "skills" in a profession before they are just more of the same. Each profession has around 90 skills? A monk, for example, has over a dozen healing spells - how many other different ways to heal do you need? How many more axe attacks do you need - if the damage/conditions/duration are all so similar? Once you've decided to be adrenaline or energy based, your skill bar is fairly well set. Adding more skills that basically duplicate your current skills is simply fluff. Because the developers (and community) are worried about game balance, no single skill can be anything overpowering or that much more desirable than another skill, even across professions. This thought process severely limits your ability to create new skills.

Soooo....the only thing you can really do is make better skills - and better skills for existing professions immediately unbalance the sides (original game versus chapter buyers). If you are willing to make that leap and accept that balance may not be neccessary between the two - with perhaps a new chapter arenas specific to the new chapters - then level limits CAN change - in fact facilitate the accomodation of better skills.

Let's say - 2nd chapter purchases can still PVE in chapter 1 areas, but once they get to level 20, can continue to rise in levels in chapter two areas - but once they go above lvl 20, the can no longer participate in Tombs - they can only participate in chapter two arenas. New skills that would create imbalance can only be purchased once you're level 21.

This SAVES the balance problems. Who cares if a level 30 goes back to Yaks Bend with unbalanced skills? No different than a level 20 doing the same thing.

Then, it creates compelling reasons to purchase the chapter 2 package, not to mention the new professions and subsequent skills.

Inbalanced, more powerful items will also only be available to adventurers in the chapter two quest sections, and are unusable in Tombs.

There is no reason to be afriad of more powerful characters - it can be handled with simple forthought - and may solve the issue of "run" characters showing up in Ascalon Arenas wearing Droknar armor - not in that instance, but in the imbalance between the chapter 2 players and the chapter 1 players.

And the rewards for winning chapter two quests, arenas, can be similarly ramped up.

It's not like reaching level 20 could be considered much of a goal. Hell, most people reach it before they ever ascend. I even turned my experience bar off very early after starting. I got alot more fun out of it without the experience bar sitting there.

Meh, leave the level cap as it is. I wouldn't want to see a monk running around healing, protecting and smiting at the same time.

Im in favor of keeping the lvl cap.

How this translates into Chapter 2 we can only guess.
Whats to say, when you play chapter 2 with your lvl 20 warrior that his lvl isnt reset to lvl 1?

And I think the solution to rewarding players should be cosmetic too.
Imo, Id say remove runes and weapons from drops and merchants altogether to be replaced by hotswap runes and complete weapons crafters.
I think they should flood the game with so much cosmetics that it becomes a necssity to figure out what it is you want to work towards and spend time accomplishing that goal, instead of everyone fighting to achieve the same basic rewards by farming.

GWs isnt set up like a MMORPG and I think they should perfect and streamline what they got.

Mimi. the skills at the moment are balanced. situationaly balanced. i don't see why any new skills we get need to be 'better'. new skills will be different. not better. they cannot be better because ANet have said that if you purchase the second chapter you WILL NOT be more powerful than someone who doesn't. you will have more choice, more flexability. not more power.

I think that the lvl cap should be raised! And more content be added! Higher Monsters Higher Gear Higher Armor and Higher Areas? I love a challenge and the game is meant to be played through and when you hit 20... you hit 20 theirs only soo much you can do. I have more fun making new chars, running them to 20 and grabbing their armor and weapons.... and getting them ascended! I have to say I would like a lvl increase but only so high...

I think that instead of spending time on raising the lvl cap and balancing it out they should find new types of PvP arenas. Even more customizable builds/armour sets, etc...

And voila, my two cents.

I am all for the new armor sets etc...

and even more customizing of the builds would be awesome!

I have a difficult time seeing masses of new skills added to the game without some unbalancing going on. With a new level cap, segmentation can be put into the game. For instance, perhaps certain levels in Chapter 2 will allow 2 elite skills to be used at once, or perhaps will allow 9 skills to be put into a bar. Just like how, currently, when you travel back to Ascalon City the party limit is only 4, certain skills can't be used in certain areas. Perhaps the magic of the world isn't high enough to justify their use, whatever, the people that make this game are smart enough to come up with fifty-leven different explanations for why (in game) this is so.

A level cap increase, with certain "fences" put in, would allow many new skills to be put in without mass unbalancing. Let me give an analogous situation that I'm sure many of you will be familiar with, the Magic: The Gathering expansions. Multiple expansions that purport to hold to the same power level as previous expansions can't help but unbalance the game.

How would it work with everyone's underworld and 15k armour? Would they need better armour values?

Personally I'd like to see the level cap remain the same, this being from a PvE perspective. I don't really see the point in raising the cap. It'd just be the same, theres really no difference fighting a lvl30 enemy while you're lvl20 to fighting a lvl50 enemy while you're lvl40. My only concern is in PvE play with the difficulty of the enemies as you progress further through the game. I assume the enemies levels will start off in the low to mid 20's. But it'll be interesting to see how they make it more difficult, wether they just throw 5 level 40 thingies at us at a time or increase the amount of enemies to say 10-15 per mob but have their levels remain around level 25.

Sorry if these thoughts were posted earlier on, but I was too lazy to read it all.

Charcoal,
You are preaching for your own church again. Nothing new, no reason at all to start this discussion all over. Fact is that the GW community is deeply devided into serveral sections, all sticking to their own opinions about how this game is meant to be or how it should be. We've heard them all.

Threat cl.. Oops. Where is my button?

chapter 2 will be good to players who tricked lots of ectos, they'll buy anything they want. For the other, there's ebay. (for new weapons, armors ... even if "you don't need this")

well, in the first place, if they do add 10 more lvls, then they are going to have to do something with the team level limits. As it stands now, a lvl1 can team with a lvl20 (not possible due to searing, but the point stands), and to me, in any case, in any RPG, its not fair. That would put a stop to low level nuubs getting ran to parts of the game where they have no business being.
Granted. You beat the game a couple times, and want to be ran thru to save time. Well kids, THATS YOUR GRIND RIGHT THERE!! Enjoy the game, you bought it!
Im veering from my point. 10 more levels at least wouldnt hurt the game imo. I've seen people grind out 10 lvls in a day (mind you they probly have no lives, but meh...).
By having a broader range of levels will by default (lets hope), force the Devs to put a team level limit in place, which should have been done from the get-go. Hate all you want, but I can definately see the TLL happening, if not in ch. 2, then in a future chapter.
Grind is the result of any storyline in any RPG, so tough nuts, and play the game over and over and enjoy the scenery, the landscape diversity, the broad range of critters, the GFX effects, til u can play the entire game with ur eyes closed. But why would you? The game has so many things to keep you playing, and re-rolling, and loving the game. You want a quick "start it up and KoS"? Go play UT or Doom. This game is a bridge between PvE and PvP, so all these gradual increases and changes to the game structure are an inevitability in the RPG process.

my 2c

Well if chapter 2 is going to be nothing but insane amounts of lv25+ groups all spawned together that one must battle through over and over with no chance of ever becoming stronger then them... I'm not buying chapter 2 as I hate the lv cap at 20. I did not grind to get to lv20 and was usually lv 20 by the time I got to the desert. To proceed past lv20 to say lv25 or 30 would not make me grind at all. It would give me a sense of character progression and I wouldn't need to spend that hard to get money (because I am a casual player) on those god awfal expensive runes and weapons. No chapter 2 for me if its going to be no different then the south shiver peaks... you can forget it.

hmm i wouldn't mind if there would be a max lvl of 50 or so because now i have like 300 skill points and i do nothing with it :S and 2 much exp so i would be very delighted if there would come more lvls and higher lvl monsters because its hell easy to get to lvl 20 in 1 weekend :S, and you don't have to play full time either.
so it would be nice if there would be more lvls.

After level 20, there are still more goals for people to reach:
(1) get all the elite skills
(2) get all the secondary professions and their skills (huge)
(3) get all the *GREEN* items
(4) get perfect armor (15K or fissure)
(5) get enough faction to unlock all the weapon mods and runes
(6) get some fames from tomb

I am sure that they require a lot more time than leveling to level 20.

Level Cap creates ego, thats all i say!

IM SUP3RIOR 2 AL OF U DUE 2 MAH HAVNG L3V3L MAH!!11! OMG WTF LEVEL 50 PROVES IM BT3R THAN U AER

I!111!1 OMG WTF CAN SQUASH ANYONE LOW3R THAN I M

IM BTER AND MAH NUMBR PROV3S IM BTAR THAN U R

The average casual player will NEVER get all of that.

OT, sacred rocks