The reason why level cap should NOT be raised.

All of you are thinking in terms of armor and dps, someone might have saided somthing diferent and I just missed it, but what about the skills that ignore armor and decrease dmg by a percent (I.E. Balthz Aura and Protective Spirit).

Also with the level cap they could have skills that you can only use after a certain level, thus motivating you to level.

I probably missed something in here so when I get on my computer I will edit.

EVERY game has an end point, a point when theres very little left to do or it gets old, otherwise we would still be playing pong. (did you know the AVERAGE wow player quits after 5-6 months / note that i stress average).

Then you are not the average player, so your viewpoint is not very important. (this isnt an insult in any way, just think about it)

Unique pah, what version of Diablo where you playing???

Joking aside, thats exactly what this game is NOT about, its about teamplay. You cant have teamplay if you dont actually need anyone because you are the UBAR killer.

Take the Thunderhead mission, it cannot be complete at all without good teamwork or henchie management / hence why this game is about skill and not levels or items. Take diablo, all you did essentially was hit things and if you couldnt kill it youd just carry on hitting it or go and level up abit first, no real skill was ever needed to play that game just time to level up (or bloody bots).


Yes but simply making it a level grind is unoriginal and lacks imagination, not a very good long term goal. How many levels can you grind to till it gets old, how many ubar items can you farm till it gets old. Adding levels and special items dosnt actually add content just grind and have and have nots. And what if the level cap is 30-40-60-100 their still comes a time when youve level'd up what then?

Guild wars is TYRING to be different and not another Wow clone where its all about leveling up and getting good items. And the part i highlighted in bold, yes SOME people have that and still 6 months is a long time, remember that the statistics released said that something like 75% of people had under 20K, so so what if some people have it all they are not the majority.

Give me a list of games that cost £30 pounds and last 6 months, this list will be very small indeed. Even if the expansion keeps you interested for 4 or 3 months thats still incredible value.

[quote]here are no tangible rewards for completing quests except to have "done" it.[/qoute]

then why play half life or any other game, last i checked you didnt level up in that.


and finnaly

who knows, i dont. But im very interested to find how it will change.

I am pretty much a PvE player and I agree that leveling is pretty silly. The current cap is a good thing, and this thread has given tons of reasons why. The only thing I can think of that I would like to see would be different money sinks. If people want to show off, put up some even more expensive armor than even the 15k sets. Or more options to differentate yourself from the crowd.

Agree lvl should not be increased

I reached lvl 20 in the wilds, and still had a long way to go to get to the end of the game. Once I hit 20 the focus switched to getting more skills, doing missions, doing quests, and earning money to upgrade and have all 4 sets from draknor. Chapter 2 I look forward to new plot line, missions, quests and getting new skills and possible different armor / equipment. Not grinding for more levels.

I am considering doing PvP seriously. I've been playing the game off and on, so is my wife with here character since the game came out. There have been so low points where I don't play for two weeks but picked right back up. Once I have my ele have all the quests done, bonus missions, all 4 sets of 15k armor (not Fow), and all of the collector's items for all 4 elements done then I will consider her "done". I do only pug's so you don't blaze through the game and learn what not to do . I took the time to smell the roses, do all the quests and have fun exploring.

I know for a fact my second character will be doing all the missions, quests, etc, but not spend as much time smelling the roses. I probable will get a runner to get me to draknor to upgrade my armor then return back to the normal area to go through the game. In fact she is lvl 9 already and still in early asclon. I don't do the pre-lvl 10 kill newbie arena.

That is, of course, a personal opinion. I don't recall ever seeing ANY game developer (much less ANet) desiring people to stop playing their games, for any reason, for any length of time. That would be business suicide. If you have people getting bored with your game, they will simply find something else to pass their time. Chances are, if you allow someone to find some other past time, they don't ever return.

Developers want to draw you in, so that you'll KEEP spending money on the franchise. Why do you think ANet is doing special events? Creating new areas to explore? You let the game become stale, you die. But at some point (as I said) simpy just adding new areas to explore isn't going to be enough.

Sure, leveling up is relatively pointless, it's all just numbers - but it also serves as a method of maintaining interest - and one of the reasons why the more mainstream games like EQ, WoW, etc exist. They have to have a compelling reason to keep customers paying monthly subscription fees. ANet went a slightly different route by nixing subscriptions, but instead of paying 10-15 bucks a month, they want you to spend 50 bucks every 6-8 months. There is little difference between the two. Pay me now, or pay me later.

And ANet is actually behind the eight ball compared to MMORPGs like EQ and WoW - instanced versus persistent worlds. While instanced worlds offer some benefits (no spawn camping, ninja looting, kill stealing, etc) it lacks the dynamics of a live world. The live persistent world is one aspect of the MMORPG that GW will never have. Some folks say that's a good thing, yet it's that dynamic aspect that makes every day have the potential to be new and fresh - something that doing the Frost Gate mission for the 10th time will never give.

actually they are scheduled for TWICE a year after they get the first (chapter 2 ) out

as soon as it does not stay fun you have to put it down instead of playing it compulsively/addictedly/obsessively and do /play something else.

a person on another forum was complaining bitterly about nothing new to do as he had his fissure armor (2sets) even though he didnt like the looks had all skills everything possible and cant find anything else to do except farm.

he has clocked 1632hours some minutes and did it in 4 months.

4 MONTHS PEOPLE

for the math challenged that is 13.6 hours a day for 4 months straight.

assuming more on weekends to do anything on weekdays .

18 hours a day on every weekend gives 6 hours for sleep/food/bathroom/real life AND

12 hours a day on weekdays for sleep/food/bathroom/real life

if he/she takes 6 hours for sleep as only 5 hours a night long term has bad effects they have only 6 hours for school/work/real life

i think anybody who plays a game past the point of it being fun and is forcing themselves to do it has personal real life problems they are running from.

take a break from the game until chapter 2 and give a few unwanted GW hours to helping in the restaurant perhaps

Mini, this isn't supposed to be another MMORPG. In fact, Anet would have us call it something else. It should not be categorized as one just because its online and there are a lot of people playing it.

It sounds like you want to take a unique game like GW and make it like every other MMO out there.

In all honesty, since there is no pvp outside of the arenas/tombs, I prefer an instanced world for just the reasons that Mimi mentioned. Were it possible to pk someone in what is currently the pve areas, I would very much like to see the world go persistant...but I doubt either of those things will ever happen.

I like the current level cap of 20...but it does amuse me that there are so many 20+ mobs...24 stone summit? How did they get so much better than I, who has ascended and am downright heroic?

I think what the problem boils down to is people have the psychological desire to be unique, to show off their superiority, etc. People DO want tangible benefits. Even all of you guys saying "Don't raise the level cap" want some sort of reward.

Raising the level cap is one way of giving people a reward or purpose. Countless other games have implemented this method with great success, but GW is different. A higher level cap for GW is rediculous and goes against the core philosophy of the game. What's required here is to think outside of the box. People want rewards, so give them rewards!

As someone mentioned above, they liked to see themself as a level 80 and others as a level 60. Well what if in GW, if you completed some super hard quest, you got a unique item(not an overpowered one, just something with a distinct look), emote, aura, whatever...so that you could clearly distinguish yourself. This would make you look unique and let you show off to those that haven't quite got that far yet.

FoW armor is a current example of this. People farm like crazy just to get this, but for what? It's solely a fashion statement, but at least it's a way of showing others you put a lot of time in. The one flaw with FoW armor is that all it measures is how well you grind. Grinding is against the spirit of the game and the game's intended audience (I would say) are not grinders. This is why they need cosmetic rewards that can be attained by completing quests, albeit very difficult ones. Cosmetic rewards are easy because they don't unbalance the game in the least bit, but they still make you look unique. And questing, working together with others (not henchmen) is what this game is all about, so why not reward it? Just my $.02

Then why do players still play starcraft 10 years after it was released? What about D2? CS? People that play WoW and quit after 5-6 months simply means that the game itself has longevity gameplay mechanic issues in it. That doesn't mean the theory itself is wrong, and there is plenty of precedent proving otherwise.

Perhaps not - in some ways, I'm less, as I'm not the richest player, nor the most rabid. But if an old fart like me, with real world obligations (job, family, etc) can twink a character to the end in a week (I've done it as fast as within a three day weekend) then anyone could. Even if it's longer than a week, or even a month, at some point, you have no real incentive to continue. Especially if you're just the "average" player that has no real hope of getting FoW armor. But the average casual player isn't what drives the game - it's the core diehard dedicated fanbase and those are the ones that ANet has to keep around for the sake of the longevity of the game.

I won't get into duping, or other issues that "wrecked" D2 - but there are similarities between the "wrecked" D2 community and GW, is there not? If everyone all has Cruel Colossus blades and a storage full of Zod runes, just what's the attraction? Rare items need to be just that - rare - not something you can get relatively easily. In D2, the chances of getting a Zod rune to drop - for example - is something in the order of a one in a billion occurance. In GW, there is NOTHING that even approaches that rarity. Once players started duping Zod runes (or SoJs, or whatever) suddenly the game became boring and stale. That's why blizzard spends so much time and effort combating duping and hacks.

that goes against your "casual" game player argument. Casual players don't join guilds - at least decent active guilds. They solo the game with henches, and put up with PUGs for those couple of missions that cause them problems otherwise.

That's why in D2 it wasn't the quest of leveling up that drove the hardcore players. It was finding "stuff". In D2, much like GW, you could twink a character to level 90 in a day. You did it just to put on your magic find gear to solo meph, or pindle, or any other boss, so you could get that rare Buriza bow, or that 1200HP armor. In GW, it's less about "stuff" until you have nothing else to do, or so much money you have nothing else to spend it on.


Absolutely correct - that's why you don't ever ever give away everything at the start, and why the whole UAS thing was simply a disaster waiting to happen for ANet. It's bad enough you're given everything you need to play the game almost from the start. At some point, you'll have everything, then what? If you accellerate it, you're just making the franchise die that much faster.

It's trying to be different - yet needs to cater to that vast majority of players that expect it. And when it's all said and done, the RPG genre is always about the same thing, and has been since it was born. Being unique doesn't absolve you from the obligation of sustainability.

The list may be small - but it's one that EVERY publisher strives for. Period. Look at the most popular games like Half Life, Sims, etc - all games that offered replayability, and expansions, or modifications that breath new life into it's franchise. EVERY publisher wants the next Sims, or Half Life. Any publisher that claims otherwise are lying. For every big hit that generates millions of sales, there are 100 games that sell 50-100k copies and dies out, never to be seen again. Do you think a publisher strives for those barely break even sales #s for every title they come out with? With rising development costs of games, there will be a day where unless the game is a blockbuster (500K+) development houses will die and publishers will reign in creativity even more.

Ah, but you do "level up" in Half Life. It's leveling is based on the equipment and tools you gain as you go along in the story. It's about finding secret levels, more goodies, and defeating the game. If you lack those carrots, there isn't much of a reason to play it, is there? If that's the case, the developers should simply enable those cheat codes for "all ammo and weapons" by default instead of giving out the goodies piecemeal.

Just my two pennies....

If they would grant one attribute point with every level of exp along with the one skill point it would still allow people to feel their hard work is worth something even without a level increase.

To counterbalance this so it's fair to the PvP folks, just allow, for a certain amount of faction, them to unlock an attribute point.

This effectivly takes the real need, or issue, people have for higher level caps at least somewhat away, but still rewards time spent. And this is beneficial to both PvP, and PvE.

Ah, you've hit the nail right square on the head. You are so 100% correct.

In the game, there is the fear of "unbalance" - so much so that any item you gain is little different from anything else. When people crunch #s (hit probability, damage over time versus damage per second, to squeeze 1-2 more HPs of damage, to scorn a +29 HP staff mod over that "perfect" 30) - then you know that when it all comes down to it, the game isn't driven by stats, it's by cosmetics.

So, once everyone has the same "cosmetics" then it loses it's uniqueness. Cosmetics doesn't make you a better player any more than owning a pretty car makes you a better driver.

In addition, cosmetics is a fairly shallow and unrewarding method of gameplay. In only your perception do you feel any better about yourself - and the gains are shortlived. It's sort of like buying a new car. You love the new car smell, you feel good about yourself driving it - but at some point in your life driving becomes just another chore you need to do. It's even worse if you're rich, and can afford to buy 10 lamborghinis. After the first, it's no longer the thrill of driving, it's simply the purchase - and that thrill goes away a lot faster.

How is this helpful in the least? I could make a solo build and farms millions of experience each week if I wanted to and then be vastly superior to every casual gamer out there. I could just max every attribute!

Is this any different than gaining your uber item or gaining a new level? No. All things are great at first and quickly get old. Such is the nature of things.

Cosmetics may not make you a better player, but to be forced to be a good player to actually receive the additional costmetic features (as I said, if you actually read), that would be rewarding enough.

You are suggesting game mechanics that simply DO NOT belong in Guild Wars. You want uber items that are extremely rare so you can grind away and feel some satisfaction when you finally find them. But what will these uber rare item be if not unbalancing? If they aren't unbalancing, why search for them in the first place? Also, even if you don't find the super rare items yourself, a power gamer would certainly be rich enough to buy them from someone who was lucky enough to find one (ala your lamboughini reference).

Yeah, I work 40 hours and week and do other things and am on my 9th character actually (2 account, deleted 2 level 20's). With each one I went through quicker and quicker, but never running. I still find the game enjoyable by playing with guildmates. If you don't, then walk away. Whether you think it or not, you certainly put more effort in than casual gamers. So now you feel entitled to better items and equipment than them? I say it again... WRONG GAME FOR YOU!

Well good for you. you'd get the blue ribbon then!

Maybe freaks like that should be limited to the time they spend on the computer.


.... JK

Seriously, you got a good point. Just doing some brainstorming. How is it different to a noob with no elites going against a seasoned played with a choice of a lot of elites, if we can unlock elites to get better, why not other things? If 16 is the max cap on a attribute, then it will run it's course, just as it is when you finally get all the elites.


**edit** While grind is not the focus of the game, so they say, it is still what will keep people in the long term. w/o any grind, then the game will always have a fast turnover. That may be good for their bottom line, but well.... bummer 'cause I'd like to be in it for the long haul.

Let's do some math.

People claim that GW is unique - and it is, but for reasons different from what you think. You claim the instanced worlds, the instant gratification, the lack of monthly fees, teh level cap, all make the game "different".

Let's take a bit closer at what is really going on...

In a normal MMORPG busines smodel, you offer content that drives players to see value in their spending the subscription fees of - for the sake of argument - 12 bucks a month to play. You spend 40 dollars (average) on the initial purchase, perhaps get the first month free, but after that, you're sinking 12 bucks a month into the game.

Over a six month period, you've spent $100 dollars on the game. 40 + (5 x 12) = 100. After a year, you've spent $172 dollars (100 dollars plus an additional $72 dollars, 6 months x 12 bucks a month).

So, the typical MMORPG game generates a huge cash flow over a typical single title game that costs $50 bucks, and a player plays for a month or two, then moves onto something else - probably from a different publisher. That means the publisher has lost out on a potential of over $100 dollars of sustainable revenue. Even if the publisher came out with an expansion pack (at $30 bucks) 8 months down the road,, it's still out a huge chunk of change compared to a MMORPG.

But MMORPG games, by themselves, have the added costs of servers, bandwidth, storage, upgrades/upkeep, housing, staff, etc. Those costs are massive, especially if the title is popular. The subscription costs might only be adequate enough to cover the monthly bills for the publisher. This, the expansion pack was born, which interjects new money into the company, with little added cost - after all, the base infrastructure is still there, the bandwidth, the servers, the storage, etc. As long as a publisher can keep interjecting new expansions - and making them worth the customer's while to purchase, the publisher will continue to make money.

For GW, the revenue stream model is different - but in the end it's all the same thing.

Instead of a monthly fee to cover the costs of bandwidth, servers, etc - the developers went for instanced worlds that sharply reduce overhead. The vast majority of the work is done on the clients machines, reducing bandwidth and server costs. The costs are still there, but greatly reduced - as long as the publisher can sell enough boxed sets at top tier pricing, they will continue to make money. But at some point, the laws of dominishing returns kicks in. People stop buying the game. You have to cut it's sale cost to attract new customers. You're also competing against other developers wanting your players. So, you interject new content via a top tier box expansion, that sells for the same amount as the first.

Perhaps people have forgotten older interviews that ANet had stated that future "chapters" were NOT simply expansion packs, but whole new chapters to the game, and would be sold at top shelf pricing, not at expansion pack pricing. And make no mistake, GW's next "chapter" will be at $49.95-$54.95US, not $30 bucks as some of you think it will be.

Thus, at the end of a three year period, with released of (initial, plus chap 2 at 1 year, chap 3 at 1.5 years, chap 4 at 2 years, chap 5 at 2.5 years, and chap 6 at 3 years) will generate $300 dollars in revenue for the company, while a game like Wow will generate over $500 dollars in revenue, if a player simply spends his initial investment, pays his monthly fees, and buy two simple $30 buck expansion packs at years 2 and 3).

Thus, ANet is banking on each chapter having a MUCH more compelling reason to buy it - or else they lose money. They have cut costs (instanced worlds, for example) to mitigate the risk, but at some point, they have to keep paying for the servers, programmers, bandwidth, housing, etc.

Thus, if you're expecting to spend $30 bucks on an expansion, you're going to e dissapointed this spring. You'll also be sorely pissed if you spend $50 bucks and all you get is a couple of new skills, a couple of new professions, and some PVE content you'll finish in 2 weeks. On one hand, it's not worth it to the consumer, yet on the other hand, ANet can't afford to sell anything less.

let me put your idea of one attribute point per level into real game perspective.

people (not super grind freaks) have gotten by pve leveling full skill sets for at least 3-6 professions.

that is basically 50 by earning skill points leveling not covered by getting them by quests.

that is 150-300+ skill points which under your system would be attribute points.

if level 12 (97 points IIRC) is the point limit you have just given a max out of an additional 1.5-3 attribute lines with the option to grind out others in the future.

give me an ele/necro with max in energy storage 12 +1 (minor rune full health)

fire at 14 (12 +1 minor rune and +1 headpiece) full health

Blood magic at 12

death magic at 12

and curses at 12

and see if those few extra points make a difference.

that is why i say no to that idea

I still think someone who finishes the game in a week plays too much. Do something else. I work 32-38 hours a week, go to school 10-15 hours a week plus homework and other stuff. I usually only play 2-3 hours every other day with the occasional 6-8 hour day on weeks when I have little homework.

Many of today's best selling and most critically acclaimed games offer 20 hours of play time or less for completion.

If Chap2 offers the same amount of content as Chap1, I will be more than happy to pay $50 for it, and not be pissed in the least.

Which is exactly my point. Would you still feel that way if the next chapter in the game sells for $54.95, yet offers nothing more than a few new skills and professions, and perhaps a couple more maps?