Guild Wars Update - Nov 10 and Nov 11

sigh .... so now only water eles can eat cheese sandwiches while they play?

Seriously why can't u just assign some intelligence level to these AI monsters and have it based on dmg or their % of health remaining? As it stands, a minotaur and a FOW monk have the same reaction to Meteor Show.

some logic

detectaoe()
if
smartslvl <= x
then continueattack
if smartslvl <= x
then runaway

and

if health > healthpercentage
then continueattack
if health <= healthpercentage
then runaway

hope someone gets the idea

They aren't against farming. They're against solo farming of high end areas, especially since it is causing mass inflation.

This patch doesn't affect group farming at all. It affects solo farming.

I understand, and wouldn't mind seeing it work like that.

But do you think 10/10's update was whipped up overnight? I doubt it.

So if you want to change this further, be patient.

This is why I suggest we change all monsters to Tengu.

Normal Tengu Charge Party:
1 healer
1 necromancer (or 2)
1 mesmer
2 rangers (or 3)
3 warriors.

... Bring on the level 30 Avicara Fierce!

Arrrribaa!

~ KDS

i think we will be seeing adjustments for weeks not days.

CAN ANYBODY TELL ME WHERE THAT NPC GETS HIS CHAR REPELLANT?

Wrong.

Effects of Patch on Group Farming:
1. Fire elementalists are often times being left out of groups for community-wide panic, or if they are allowed in a group, many of them are scared to utilize their fire (AoE based) skills.
2. Nothing is running smoothly in any groups I've tried. It's chaotic and even with called targets as soon as someone drops any AoE spells without previous snares (which is unavoidable in general PUGs), it's every player for themselves, as we all get a massive influx of something beating on our head. I'm not saying it's not different, not saying it's completely bad...just saying it's affected.
3. I don't even have to explain the problems with henchmen groups. That's has already been demonstrated by numerous posts.
* there are more I'm just too drained to start trying to think at the moment.

Effects of Patch on SoloFarming:
1. It's a little bit slower.

okay if you think solo farmers caused the increases in prices ... wait...

now there are MUCH less solo farming.... watch....

that ecto thats 17k now? gonna go up cause there are LESS people getting them in bulk IE no solo farmers.. no trapper teams..

those Gold great axes you could buy unid in augury... for a whole 2k... already hitting 20k+

removeing solo farmers INCREASED the value on everything in the economy because there is LESS items being found/ for sale...

Anet didnt do you some "lil guy" favor so the average noob with 10k can now cover his guys all in black dye ... anet just made the rich richer.. and the poor are gonna be a HELL OF A LOT poorer...

LESS SUPPLY= MORE DEMAND... MUCH HIGHER PRICES>>>>

I think what you are witnessing is Ele's who have yet to come to terms with the changes. I farmed griffons with my Ele yesterday, taking Thom and Alesia. I used Meteor Shower every time and it didn't scatter the griffons. You just have to wait a bit until Thom has pissed them off so much that they want him dead!!

I also did Abbaddon's Mouth yesterday with a Fire Ele in the party.. he did great--no monster chaos.

People just need to learn to play with the change.

What you are seeing at the moment is the panic after a change. Panic buying causes prices to increase. At some point people won't pay the increased prices any more and they will start to fall. Just don't buy anything for a couple of weeks.

The huge influx of gold (from solo farmers) was causing prices to increase way too fast... new people entering the game have no chance of buying anything. Now we need a new equilibrium to set in, and that will take some time.

If you can't deal with the update then just don't play the game and stop complaining. There not going to change it back. I can farm griffons solo with my E/Me perfectly fine, it just takes a bit longer. If your a lazy person who can't change your skills to fit with the update then just go to pvping. Remember that this game have both PvP and PvE, so if you don't pve at all and just pvp then you have no right in complaining about this update.

I said I wasn't going to argue, but this point should've been touched a while ago.

Players, the guys at the keybaord, are omnipotent. They know what some of the skills are before they're even cast all the way. I think that's why the dev/s made monsters run so soon the first time. Anyways, PvP scatter because why, every player know's it's a damn spell that does DoT.

Now, every monster in the entire world, know's what an AoE is, yeah, like a troll studies that sort of thing.

Now, say you take the AI, feet it what skills to use to counter what PvE'ers are using. IT will always win, based on the reflex factor alone. When to move, how far away to stand, when to cast what interrupt. All before you can even blink.

AI with it's already uncanny quickness and awesome knowledge of interrupt, and copule that with omnipotence and pvp strategy, well, it will win.
To any other person that thinks otherwise. I can beet it.
OK, then, it's You, vs You(with faster fingers, better net connection, instant thought processing)

If you make it as similar to PvP as possible, you're going to be shoving any gamer but those "leet" people aside.

Leet Wars, doesn't have the same feel or ring to it does it?

YAY... we're almost there! Yes, farming actually affects BOTH demand AND supply. since, as you correctly stated, both money and goods are entering the economy. We basically have two effects here:

a) Farming produces money on the farmers due to cash drops. The money will be used to buy stuff eventually. It increases the demand side of GW's economy since goods are going to be purchased eventually. This effect is rather bad for the economy because it would mean in increase of the demand of goods like materials and items. If happening isolated, it would mean inflation since prices would go up.

b) Farming also produces items on the farmers, either usable ones like weapons or materials. This means an increase of the supply side of GW's economy. If happening isolated it means that prices would drop (aka deflation).

Both effects actually cancel each other out when it comes to prices.

It's the other way around, actually. The demand is people buying goods. Money is a means to buy them.

Allright, the problem is not really a misunderstanding of economics, it's a misunderstanding of farming. I have farmed for months now. Believe me when I say that money drops was the smallest portion of the wealth I earned. WAY more important were the materials I sold to a trader. Yes, I got money that way, but - more importantly - I increased the supply of materials at the NPC traders. You can thank people like me that you don't have to pay 500 gold for a Steel Ingot - we farmers are producing it and selling it to the trader in huge quantities. As for items, you sometimes get nice drops in terms of weapons, too. Again, farming means that MORE of those items are brought into the economy which keeps their prices down. You are assuming that we farmers ruin prices because we use our buying power to purchase every little gold item out there no matter the price and thus cause inflation. That's wrong. Farmers DON'T BUY MUCH, THEY SELL. It's quite unlikely that I'd ever buy a weapon from another player - why would I, I am getting tons of them during my farming activities. I have perfect weapons of every sort imaginable, there is really no need for me to ever buy other people's stuff. True, occassionally, a farmer sometimes might also buy a nice weapon or mod on the market. But they will sell ten to hundred times that volume. The total effect is of course a reduction in prices, not an increase. You want to know what I did with my money? I bought 5 15k armor sets and one Fissure armor. My buying power left the economy in huge quantities that way.

So, now tell me what's so bad about that...

I'm not replying to any specific point on your post. The defense of farmers on the whole though.

Ebay farming I believe is the root of the farming problem. IF you feel the need, you can buy a million in game coin.

Boom, a noob with a million coin, can buy a runner to get him everywhere, the materials for the leet armor, and the armor itself, and the uber weapons, the sup runes, and everything else.

Not only is that completely unfair, to have the best of every thing all in one day(considering only really, the time of the runs), that's an economy killer.
This guy buys anything at any price cause he can afford it.

Suppose he buuys for the most expensive class as far as runes go, and wants black armor. You know, he wants the popular stuff.

Suppose he is actually one of several hundred atleast.

One, from that many buyers that buy at really high prices, who cares about fair market value, I'm not going to accept less than X-amount cause some ebayer will come along shortly....

The more things are bought in NPC vendors, the more prices rise, right?
(that really is a question, i don't get the vendors for dyes, runes, and materials)

Third, once his(and other ebayers) one million coin actually starts to circulate, suddenly everyone else has more coin too, and everyone else know's it. Prices go up. Single gold value goes down.

Alot of people are in ascalon, offering the best weapons for alot of money, they want the ebayers money. Cause they know it's on the noobs. They're not selling in Lions arch, because even though you don't find many leet weapons being sold there, you know everyone has them.

Any runner asking for people to pay him to picken or yaks are the only ones that are trying to scrape up some normal in game case.

I've seen people in ascalon offering runs to droks and other such players, they encourage the ebay shopper also.

So, if prices rise for the everything on account of the ebayer, well, normal people decide to resort to farming, to get the gold they need/want to get the items they need want.

Am I wrong?

IF not, am I missing something?

From what I've been reading, this is what I have seen. People seem to be a just a little ticked (but only a little) because their nukers won't work in the same many as before. So instead of deciding to bash anet and my fellow gamers, I'm going to try and offer some constructive criticism.

With the update, movement hindering skills now can play a major roll in PvE. In GvG I can't tell you how many times a good water or air ele has made a difference between victory and defeat. With this in mind, I think that maybe there are a few additions to the game that might help the overall experience. One thing that might help is to give warriors a greater ability to hold aggro. In FF11, they had a great aggro system with warrior skills that really allowed him to keep the focus of the enemy on him. If anet implemented something like this, then maybe all it would take is an intelligent warrior to be able to pull off the desired effect of an ele AoE spells.

The second idea that I have is to give the AoE spells a kind of "presence" on the screen. In other words, instead of targeting an enemy to use the spell, select the actual area that you wish the spell to take place in. With this you could coordinate so that a ranger could use ignite arrows to drive enemies into an ele's firestorm.

This is the constructive criticism that I have, and I would like to see if anyone else has any additions, that anet would be able to use, that might help with everyone's ill feelings toward the new patch.

Good idea. I'd suggest posting in Sardelac.

"OMG Anet has made teh monsters retarded! The high level ones *always* runs away, but the low level ones will act like spastics trying to both attack and run away at the same time!!!1 They hate farmers!!!1 Im never playing GW AGAIN!!!1"



EDIT: everything considered, perhaps I should be clear - there's a small bug in the pseudo-code. One < should be a >.

OK

my addition is to have(fire elemental example) the condition continue as they run for the duration of the spell.

example firestorm

you have been hit by a rain of fire from the sky but you stop burning 5 steps from where you were? (not likely)

nope you continue to burn for the duration of the spell at which time damage stops.

does something like that sound reasonable to anybody?

Dude this update in INCREASE ebay buyers because lazy people who can't farm and have money in real life will get from ebay or some over place.

Ebay seller don't always use farming after all drokar running brings in a lot of gold too.

And like I said earlier this is also decreasing the amount of players in the game a.k.a. potencial buyers of Chapter 2

This has taken OUT money and items from the guild wars economy and Anet has not put anything to replace farming as a money maker.

The problem I am having with this update is not so much my character(s), but trying to keep the ele's in my guild playing. This is going to have a real impact if guilds start loosing folks that don't want to change the skill sets they are using to conform with this latest errr patch. I have yet to read a concise explaination why this was rolled out in the manner that it was.........and would still like to see that explaination as I am sure many would.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...d=1#post671818

SAnitaruim is the idea house, and that's my idea.

*edit below
That is my point. Aside from your first sentence, it didn't really make sense.

More and more farming begets more and more farming, for the reasons I explained above, and as you said, it encourages more ebay shoppers also.

I agree that farming should be stopped, BUT, this patch wasn't the way to go about it. Like you said, it's driving off potential future customers.

There are a plethora of ideas to patch or fix the economy in the sanitarium section and discussion of how to fix the probelm the game has should be there.(I don't agree that the idea house should be the sanitarium, just by what a sanitarium is in definition)

I still can't figure out where the complaints were about this if any and if there are not any why does Anet think solo-farming is so "cheap"

if there are any complaints about solo-farming before the update can someone give me a link to it?

Nope, you are completly right. I am defending legit farming. Ebaying is not legit farming, it's cheating. I don't respect ebayers and I think they should be removed from the game as quickly and throughly as possible. I think most legit farmers hate ebayers as much as I do. We WORK for our money, they don't. They are too lazy too play the game, but they still want everything basically for free. As I said, they are lowly cheaters, nothing else.

The bad thing is that most measures directed against ebayers will hit legit farmers even more than them.

In my opinion, it haven´t tought them. Many missions are/were so easy - just grab some people and go no matter what skills, firestorm and meteor shower took down most of the enemy group. Simple tank and fire ele was enough. Now people actually have to think and cooperate with other classes (not to be mistaken, I had beaten the game with fire nuker, it is not that it had been for me to get in groups).

My theory is that they had the Nov.11 update planned all along. They just released the horrible 11/10 update first, knowing that there would be a massive uproar. This way when they rolled out the 11/11 it wouldn't seem so bad. Sneaky Anet! /fistshake

OOH, I like this patch. Brings some new life to the AI.

(OOH = On the Other Hand)

Yeah, and A-net's CEO is an alien, too. They plan to take over the world with that patch!

That's unfortunate yes, and I can't offer a complete solution, I don't know the mechanics of the game, nor could I begin to guess, but I feel that it could have been handled better.

Untill there is a way thought of to nullify buying money on ebay, farming will have to be shut down. There is a certain legit desire to farm, to get the best things, but that's second to the ebay problem, imo. I say desire, not need, sometimes people need to simply save up, go back and do quests to make it fun and not repetative. There is no clause that states that you NEED to get the best things right away, that is why I say a "legit desire". Expanding the PvE as far as quests, or adding coin rewards more often would help.

Nerfing all skills down on all players isn't the answer, but it's the best they can some up with in the meantime, and we're going to have to live with it in one form or annother. Which is why I suggest everyone find topics in the sanitarium that deal with this issue and discuss them levelheadedly, instead of flaming the heck out of this already 69(lol) page thread. Alot of people here say, "I could have done a better job"

To those people, prove it, and come discuss it.

You don't shut down real life society because there is crime, too. Deal with the criminals and leave law abiding people alone, I'd say. Bots can be dealt with intelligent analysis of their behavior and mass banning of bot accounts. If done properly, the botters will lose money more quickly on buying new GW accounts and botting won't make you real life money anymore.

Unfortunately, A-net throws legit farming in the same pot as the botters and swings the nerf stick in such wide arches that it seem to hit just about anybody (maybe including the botters or maybe not). To me, it's not the brightest of all strategies, but well...

PS: They can't shut down farming, ever. No matter what they do. If you assume farming can only be done with a 55 monk, you are WRONG. If you think, farming can be done only in UW or Griffons, you are WRONG. People will always farm, trust me.

Maybe this is over-simplifying things but why not just make it so there is a Minimum Party size? Area's that have 6 as the max, make it so that 4 is the minimum whether you take 3 henchies and yourself or 3 Players and yourself. Solo Farming problem solved & Everyone gets to play their respective class without having to nerf certain builds into oblivion....

I just came back from the Fissure of Woe. We've been down there for two reasons. First one was to get one of our guildies the Fissure Armor and the other reason was to put atleast some effort into adapting to the new situation. Starting with the basic believes and prejudices probably a large scale of the community feels:

1. Nukers are History
2. Crowdcontrol is dead
3. Farming is dead
4. The game became too hard

Some of our members (including me) designed their builds to adapt to the new situation - and to see how the game now feels and developes during a long time session like the clearance of the "Fissure of Woe". Yet we still partly employed the old scheme of bringing a tank.
I was playing the tank, an Elementalist/Monk (Geomancer). Not something you see a lot around in GuildWars do you? Well, pre-patch Eletanks did quite well for us and out of a habit the choice for our tank was the elementalist again. A minor skillchange was made on my side - i brought Ward against Foes.
The rest of the team was well mixed, we even brought a Necromancer (Blood... but not only blood) and an interrupter/trapper Ranger. Too summarize things up... our teambuild was unlike those all of us have seen trying to rambo a mission. Ah forgot to mention... no warrior.

We went in.

In a short time we did a quick setup of our basic enchantments and started to engage the combat. Me, being the tank, ran ahead of my team and right into the crowd. The initial combat behaviour is still the same as it was pre-patch. All of the foes started to attack my avatar. As soon as they were standing around my Elementalist Tank i casted Ward against Foe.
Only then the rest of the team engaged into combat. A single Arrow with the "Ignite Arrow" Preperation was enough to spoil the whole idea of tanking and transformed the combat into a match of pinball.
We then stopped applying said preperation and engaged the next combat. I was again running ahead, gathering aggro and keeping it focused onto myself. One of the other elementalists engaged into combat, casting a single firestorm. The result was to be expected, the mobs started to scatter immediately and then engaging another target at will.

Observations so far:

1. Area of Effect Spells DO break Aggro. The enemies will engage different targets
2. The enemies will run a long distance if the caster follows them
3. The effect of "Ward against Foes" was minor - not enough to justify it
4. The loss of Damage Output and the continued pursuit are prolonging battles

Deriving from said observations there are several assumptions that jump and wave around and beg to be looked upon. Which are:

• Area of Effect Spells lost a large portion of effectivity
• A slow down of 50 % is not enough to put the Fire Spells back into use
• Tanks are obsolete as soon as the first AOE Spell is out
• The running enemies will run into the opposite direction of you. Unless you try and circle around them pre-combat this will result in them running into follow up mobs. -> Continued Pursuit will end in too much aggro and a wipe of your team.

Some of the believes about the new patch are simply wrong and not justified. However some of the advices from the want to be "Professional Gamer" Crowd are just as wrong. Just bringing Snares won't put the time based AOE Spells back into use unless their effect is greater than a slowdown of 50%. Thinking outside the box also won't do the trick.
While the game not really became harder, it became more tedious to play. Pre-patch it would take us about one hour to reach the Forgemaster and actually be able to craft some of his goods. Post-patch though, the same trip took us a whooping 3 hours (to give the devil his due, we've been afk once during said period - ranging from 20-30 minutes). Looking back at our teamspeak communication i can really say it was slow but steady draining energy from us.
We started with our typical jokes, having a great time playing the game. It quickly became frustration as no matter which action we did, it allways managed to end in utter chaos. And finally, i could hear my guildies yawn and moan (mostly about the update itself, though the occasional "crappy loot!" was in there too).

Things to try yet:
Barbed Trap around the tank... everytime... yawn.
Echo Spiter (the new Echo Nuker?)



So finally, and to finalize this post - my comment on the situation.


GuildWars consists of several pillars, all trying to carry the heavy weight of a great game.

The pillars are:

Tactic (also: Adaption, Changing the odds to your favor while fighting)
Strategy (also: Planning ahead, knowing the battlefield, Crowd Control)
Chaos (also: Randomness)
Friendship (also: Basically having a good time with human players)
Atmosphere (also: Graphics, Sounds, Leveldesign)
Change (also: Constant evolution or degeneration of the gaming state)

Every player has his own opinion about how those pillars should be placed (how much weight they should carry). For some people, there is nothing like Friendship and if all the other pillars crumble, those will still be playing the game. Others love to see a constant flow of changes, while yet another crowd will probably love the Randomness of the Chaos Pillar. And then there is the huge crowd of those that have several favorites amongst said Pillars. Why am i stating this thing about the Pillars?

Because i feel like one of the pillars has been taken out of the PVE - Game completely. To be exact, the Pillar of Srategy is gone for me. While probably everyone is right in his opinion about the game, the update did only hit those that preferred a calm playing style planning ahead their steps(well and the farmers... but who cares about those? Just kidding...). Yes i do understand those that say "Whats the matter? Nothing has really changed for me!". This is because you have chosen one of the other pillars and this does not affect you at all. But do you understand me as well?
YOUR playing style is not MY playing style. And judging from this thread there are several others thinking alike. While i don't want your way of playing to be ruined (why should i? if you prefer let's say... chaos [Leeroy Style, aggro everything and try to survive] thats fine for me), why do you insist on mine being destroyed? Did us strategians really have such a bad influence on the game that we got a huge hit against our forehead? Obviously... we did.

While the basic idea of the patch was great, the outcome was disastrous - to some. I don't know the numbers and you do neither. I even doubt that Arena.net knows those yet. There will either be an increase in Player numbers or a decrease in the very near future.

For me... the other pillars can barely hold the weight of the game..


One final OT Statement

A.Net... get decent Beta Testers. This is not the first patch that came out with severe problems and bugs. Those of the kind it takes one wonder "how in the name of all nine planes of hell did they miss out THOSE?". This is only partly directed at this update. It is moreover a common thing i've seen amongst many of the patches lately. I'm not speaking about Balancing and stuff like that... but patches obviously breaking stuff.
I would understand if the bugs where in parts that should not have been affected by the change. But the thing i want to point my finger upon here is... the bugs occur in the parts they actually changed and tested.

So please... get some decent Testers. Or if i'm doing them wrong... let them actually TEST things before you release them.

6 people leave town, 5 log out, one left. Happy soloing.

Really, people should stop thinking that introducing limitations would make this game any better.

They're going to limit the game anyway.OBVIOUSLY People bail, Henchie appears in the empty spot, Problem solved. I would rather have something like this instead of what we've got now. Works to solve another problem in the process, 1/2 assed lamers that bail in the middle of a mission.

Hhmm, curfews. They're not jsut for teenagers, whole cities have recieved them. Declare martial law, military in the streets, that's been done too.

Shutdown was the wrong term.

You can hinder farming enough so that farming for ebay wouldn't be profitable.
Like you(someone anyway) said, bots can be caught, but there are sweatshops to contend with.

I have no idea why you would spend hour after hour farming for ectos and shards and fellblades. But I accept tha you guys do.

But noone can ever convince me that making monsters having smarter AI is a bad thing. The smarter, the greater the challenge, the better.

Great idea. Your tank drops due to an err=7 and gets replaced by Little Leroy Thom Jenkins. Or, particulary after the update: Your water ele drops out and gets replaced by the new "Miss Aggrocontrol" Cynn. People are going to love this.

EVERY single try to hit the solo farmers A-net made so far has made the game worse. Particularly including the 11/10 patch which was not only a very lame attempt to stop soloing (my monk is still laughing her butt off while farming just like before) but ruined the game for countless people who never had anything to do with farming. Read the post about the "new" Fissure of Woe strategies. Gosh, I am going to miss these organized runs, too. Strategy and tactics replaced by the new Leroyism... Very nicely done, Anet!

The ANet peeps can say what ever they want, this is still nothing more then an update to stop farming, not to improve AI. That is just their cover story so the people who play that don't farm don't get even more pissed

& by the way Anet, I can still solo the UW, so U have FAILED

And as it is now/has been in most cases the party is forced or chooses to restart the mission since they are now shorthanded. While this isn't always the case, the majority of the time this is exactly what happens.

I guess I should have been more specific but I was giving simple input as to a possible replacement not addon to the current disaster that we're all having to deal with.

The people who want to feel good about themselves can say whatever they want, this is still nothing more than an update to Improve AI, not stop farming. That is just their cover story to complain about an update.

And by the way, I can still play PvE just fine.

New players would do it. Most experienced players don't stop a run when a player drops. Lately, we had 3 people drop on a FoW run. Yes, we did Forgemaster quests nevertheless. Why should you abort when you just as well can go on? Also, it would stop people from INTENTIONALLY doing quests with less than a full party to increase challenge. We do that quite often.

Limitations are bad, bad, bad.

Good solution: Leave the farmers alone. In contast to Anet's uncontrolled usage of the nerf stick (aka 11/10 patch), farmers don't hurt anyone.

Well, based on the 3 hours of play since the new patch I have done in various areas. I would have to say that I like the changes. Anything that ups the difficulty level without going overboard is fine with me. I love to see new challenges in game that I already love to play.

Not to mention that it has dropped the price of the Superior Fire Runes from 76k to 9k. Yeah for me. !!!

I think this whole update has hurt too much and I don't know whats holding Anet back from changing/removing it.

Results of the Update

1. Monsters running from AoE is an factore from PVP it does not belong in PvE

2. Water Eles, Earth Ele, and knockdown Air Eles can't slow monesters enough for the Fire Ele to be effective in PvE now and if Anet Doesn't something Fire Eles will be gone forever.

3. Every Level of PvE is affected (in a bad way) by this including Solo AND team farming

4. The Largest Outrage and action against a single update has arrived and already 1000s of pentions and threads have started. I pridict if this issue doesn't resolve more hurtful to anet actions will result.

5. Prices on certian items are showing sky-rocket effects

Is all this wroth making the Henchies and Monsters "Smarter"

Really? Boy what my guild does must not be farming then... who'd a thunk it? Team farming is not harder, unless your incapable of overcoming the weakening of... oh 4 skills in the Fire Elementalist line.

They don't run from one-shot AoEs like Fireball, why would they run from my Shatter Hex? or Cry of Frustration? or Energy Surge?

Chain Lightning and Lightning Touch are one-shot AoEs. Whirlwind is a one-shot AoE KD. Unsure how Thunderclap is affected though, but I imagine they don't run just because they're knocked down.

Aftershock, Crystal Wave, Earthquake, Grasping Earth are all one-shot AoEs and no-shot AoEs, thus unaffected.

Eruption is affected, I believe.

Deep Freeze and Frozen Burst are one-shot AoEs and both snares.

Maelstrom is affected.

Except they don't.

I said, originally:
So no, it didn't screw up a lot more than I think.

Yep. I'd think you're pretty sure it didn't screw up a lot more than I think, as well. I appreciate your concern for my confidence though.