As long as there will be a warrior that targets ther monk first, instead of a ranger, and a mesmer that targets the monk first, instead of an elementalist, there will be my anti spiking rant:
A 15 year old kid says in teamspeak:
"Mantra of Resolve"
"Glyph of Energy"
"this target"
"Obsidian Flame"
"3"
"2"
- 3 earth eles fly up at the same time while a mesmer casts phantom pain
"1"
- Monks get bored by random enchantment removing.
"spike"
- a mesmer casts shatter delusions within the same 1/8 second when 3 obsidian flames hit their target.
"this target"
"Obsidian Flame"
"3"
- Monks get bored by random enchantment removing.
"2"
- 3 earth eles fly up at the same time while a mesmer casts phantom pain
"1"
"spike"
- a mesmer casts shatter delusions within the 1/8 second when 3 obsidian flames hit their target.
...
ah yes, theres ranger spike, too, but thats relatively easy to counter, you can just move randomly when you know youre the target and half of all arrows will miss. Or you just use manrtra of resolve, spell breaker, whirling defense and dust trap one a single ranger that goes in to disable enough of them long enough. Another small problem for ranger spikes is damage absorbtion and general blindness.
Youre stupid if you go anywere without armor parts that have no superior runes at all to have as much health as possible to give your prot monk another 1/16 second of reaction time.
Ah yes, there are counters to spikes in general (like just targeting rangers or elementalists in your strategy instead of monks, monks monks and more monks) but its killing the game diversity for months now.
new target.. 3.. 2.. 1.. yawn!
Ollj
Sekkira
And your point? Really, what is it?
Tactical-Dillusions
Make a monk but focus only on your secondary profession and they will still target you.
I'm using troll unguent and wielding a bow ffs.
PvP...no thanks!
I'm using troll unguent and wielding a bow ffs.
PvP...no thanks!
twicky_kid
anet is faced with a very hard decision for pvp.
either keep the monks healing as is and spike will contiune b/c you can't out dmg a monk over time. stategy will stay the same but skills will change. eventually getting very dull.
reduce the monks healing slightly but at a risk of not being affective anymore and completely removing monks from pvp. if they can't heal the dmg done then why have them.
i don't know an answer. would be nice to have some challenge maps that challenged 2 teams to complete a certian goal before the other. instead of accually fighting the other team.
either keep the monks healing as is and spike will contiune b/c you can't out dmg a monk over time. stategy will stay the same but skills will change. eventually getting very dull.
reduce the monks healing slightly but at a risk of not being affective anymore and completely removing monks from pvp. if they can't heal the dmg done then why have them.
i don't know an answer. would be nice to have some challenge maps that challenged 2 teams to complete a certian goal before the other. instead of accually fighting the other team.
Wasteland Squidget
One idea that has been brought up on TGH is a standard cap of 33% base health damage on a single target per second. So it would not be possible to kill a target in under 3 seconds, rather like the Guild Hall has.
Suddenly it would be necessary to shut down enemy Monks rather than simply ignoring them, and FoTMs in general would be much harder to pull off, as the 'good' builds would have to incorporate a mix of Monk shutdown and strong damage.
Likewise, enchantments like Prot Spirit would make a lot more sense for their energy cost and recharge times - as is, Prot Spirit or Shielding Hands can cut off massive amounts of damage on a single target for relatively low cost, something that would be unbalanced if it weren't needed as a vital counter.
I'd be curious to hear thoughts from this community on the subject.
Double post content:
False.
Running a team with a mix of damage and shutdown and coordinating our shutdown onto the non-targeted Monks we can pretty easily drop someone with DPS rather than spike. Oftentimes the kill will take place over 5 seconds or so, which is more than enough time for any Monk to throw down a few heals.
Of course, to do this we have to run a balanced team - not 5 of the same class.
Suddenly it would be necessary to shut down enemy Monks rather than simply ignoring them, and FoTMs in general would be much harder to pull off, as the 'good' builds would have to incorporate a mix of Monk shutdown and strong damage.
Likewise, enchantments like Prot Spirit would make a lot more sense for their energy cost and recharge times - as is, Prot Spirit or Shielding Hands can cut off massive amounts of damage on a single target for relatively low cost, something that would be unbalanced if it weren't needed as a vital counter.
I'd be curious to hear thoughts from this community on the subject.
Double post content:
Quote:
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Originally Posted by twicky_kid
either keep the monks healing as is and spike will contiune b/c you can't out dmg a monk over time. stategy will stay the same but skills will change. eventually getting very dull.
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Running a team with a mix of damage and shutdown and coordinating our shutdown onto the non-targeted Monks we can pretty easily drop someone with DPS rather than spike. Oftentimes the kill will take place over 5 seconds or so, which is more than enough time for any Monk to throw down a few heals.
Of course, to do this we have to run a balanced team - not 5 of the same class.
twicky_kid
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget
Likewise, enchantments like Prot Spirit would make a lot more sense for their energy cost and recharge times - as is, Prot Spirit or Shielding Hands can cut off massive amounts of damage on a single target for relatively low cost, something that would be unbalanced if it weren't needed as a vital counter.
I'd be curious to hear thoughts from this community on the subject. |
sheilding has a horrible recharge and pro spirit cost too much to keep on entire party all the time.
Ollj
you can easily outdamage monks over time.
simple solution against spiking is 0 casting time for some more monk skills.
or skills like Watchful Spirit against enchantment removing.
simple solution against spiking is 0 casting time for some more monk skills.
or skills like Watchful Spirit against enchantment removing.
twicky_kid
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget
False.
Running a team with a mix of damage and shutdown and coordinating our shutdown onto the non-targeted Monks we can pretty easily drop someone with DPS rather than spike. Oftentimes the kill will take place over 5 seconds or so, which is more than enough time for any Monk to throw down a few heals. Of course, to do this we have to run a balanced team - not 5 of the same class. |
i'm not referring to the common half assed teams you run into. i'm talking about good teams that know what they are doing DOT isn't going to work.
Aeon_Xin
Quote:
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Originally Posted by twicky_kid
anet is faced with a very hard decision for pvp.
either keep the monks healing as is and spike will contiune b/c you can't out dmg a monk over time. stategy will stay the same but skills will change. eventually getting very dull. reduce the monks healing slightly but at a risk of not being affective anymore and completely removing monks from pvp. if they can't heal the dmg done then why have them. i don't know an answer. would be nice to have some challenge maps that challenged 2 teams to complete a certian goal before the other. instead of accually fighting the other team. |
A CTF type of game would be quite interesting, something similar to a Halo bloodgulch map.
Or an assault, each team takes turn laying siege to get to the flag.
I think goal oriented PVP things would add aLOT of spice to a dull X# vs X# of people fight to the death.
You could also have stats for different events, top ten guilds in each event, something like that, recognition and rewards.
Yamat
Quote:
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Originally Posted by twicky_kid
pro spirit and sheilding is not going to save you from spike. it only saves you if you have it on the target BEFORE the spike.
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Zeru
When people start realizing that there are better builds than pure caster or ranger spike things will start shifting away from pure spike once very 7-20 seconds into more pressure and versatile builds. Ranger spike is basically the best form of caster/ranged spiking but it's still just spiking (though definitely not 'easy' to counter). It's inferior and people are going to realize this sooner or later; there's no need for balance changes at the present moment.
Oh, enchantment spells don't always get removed before every spike. You want to be spiking as often as possible and shatters/drains/whatever removal has too long of a cooldown to keep up.
Oh, enchantment spells don't always get removed before every spike. You want to be spiking as often as possible and shatters/drains/whatever removal has too long of a cooldown to keep up.
MarkyX
Maybe if warriors started using shields up and watch yourself..
But that will never happen. That would require warriors to have intelligence.
But that will never happen. That would require warriors to have intelligence.
Ollj
Quote:
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Originally Posted by MarkyX
Maybe if warriors started using shields up and watch yourself..
But that will never happen. That would require warriors to have intelligence. |
Arturo02
are you saying people shouldn't target monks first?
Blasphemy! :P
Blasphemy! :P
twicky_kid
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Zeru
Oh, enchantment spells don't always get removed before every spike. You want to be spiking as often as possible and shatters/drains/whatever removal has too long of a cooldown to keep up.
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glyph of renwal + shatter enchantment is such a killer. removes the enchantment and does about 1/5 of the dmg of your spike too. shatter enchantments dmg was reduced for a reason.
Sekkira
Killing the monk first can be a good idea. However, it's easier to get your mesmer/ranger to shut them down first. Of course, once they've done that, why kill something that can't do anything? Kill the things that are still blowing you up first, then finish off that poor frustrated healer.
Roza
There are ways to counter both ranger and ele spike. Maintained protection enchantments on all are the way to go there, I think. But these can be hit by rend encantments, of course. A mesmer or ranger finding and interupting the rend enchantments caster will help a lot. Or maybe even two of those, as the spike-team may have a backup enchantment remover. That is 3 characters (and probably 2 healing monks) devoted to countering the spikes. Which leaver 3 other characters aided by two mesmers (primary orsecondary) from time to time, countering 3 monks. Which is doable.
Another thing you can do is just kill enough of them or drain their energy enough so that they will only be able to take down a couple of your team (who are then rezzed) before enough of them are dead or drained to stop the spiking from being effective.
Another thing you can do is just kill enough of them or drain their energy enough so that they will only be able to take down a couple of your team (who are then rezzed) before enough of them are dead or drained to stop the spiking from being effective.
twicky_kid
dark fury + fear me
3 wars with lvl 8 tactics would considerably kill an entire area of energy. 9 energy loss every 2 seconds in good sized area w/o slowing down your swings.
don't know why this hasn't been used. out of energy = just attacks and wanding.
3 wars with lvl 8 tactics would considerably kill an entire area of energy. 9 energy loss every 2 seconds in good sized area w/o slowing down your swings.
don't know why this hasn't been used. out of energy = just attacks and wanding.
Racthoh
Quote:
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Originally Posted by MarkyX
Maybe if warriors started using shields up and watch yourself..
But that will never happen. That would require warriors to have intelligence. |
Also, the +50 AL that Shield's Up! grants you can pretty much toss aside as a form of defense. Any ranger running Kindle Arrows or an elemental string bypasses that nifty defense. Even at 12 tactics on say a e/w warder, the blocking is only 34% (I believe) and it only lasts for 18 seconds with a 30 second recharge. A 12 second window is more than enough for a ranger spike to drop a target, if not multiple ones.
Ollj
Quote:
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Originally Posted by twicky_kid
dark fury + fear me
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ange1
i reckon anet should set requirement for teams
like for 10 mins only, only teams of 2monk 6 elemental can enter tomb
then next 10 mins will be 6monk and 2 worrior, blah blah
or 1 of each =P
reduces the time ppl make godly builds and just play for fun, maybe make tomb 2
oh any person can join the team if they meet the requirement of profession. what u think? =DDD
like for 10 mins only, only teams of 2monk 6 elemental can enter tomb
then next 10 mins will be 6monk and 2 worrior, blah blah
or 1 of each =P
reduces the time ppl make godly builds and just play for fun, maybe make tomb 2
oh any person can join the team if they meet the requirement of profession. what u think? =DDD
twicky_kid
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Originally Posted by Ollj
"To the Limit + "Fear me!" + dark fury
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about time for an e denial IWAY LOL. i hate iway.
Numa Pompilius
OK, I give up. WTH is this thread about?
That spiking is too powerful and/or too hard to protect against?
That spiking is too powerful and/or too hard to protect against?
PieXags
If the only PvP style they had was something other than arena style, it wouldn't be so boring and repetitive with the same actions being carried out all the time. If it they had a zone where it was just an ongoing PvP war, you'd see there'd be much more diversity (and it'd be a lot more fun) than set arena play.
Wasteland Squidget
Quote:
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Originally Posted by twicky_kid
since you think so they i'd like to see you walk into tombs and put a full degen on the entire team and watch the monk heal the degen the entire battle. DOT does not win you games. you can use DOT if you can effectively shut down the monks. against a good team that isn't going to happen often and if it does it won't be long. every monk is running CoP now and there is nothing to stop it b/c its a skill not a spell. diversion can make the recharge longer but it wears off in 6 seconds.
i'm not referring to the common half assed teams you run into. i'm talking about good teams that know what they are doing DOT isn't going to work. |
However, there is a /massive/ difference between 20 DPS and the one-second-500 DPS present in a good spike group. Burst damage does work against shutdown Monks, particularly when applied in a radius so that they don't know which of the people at half health is going to be hit next. Quick switching of targets combined with Monk shutdown can drop teams quickly.
As far as Monk shutdown, interrupts ruin a healing Monk's day, whether they're using CoP or not. A Ranger spamming interrupts on a target can deal a nice consistent DPS which other Monks must heal, combined with failure of most attempted heals, and doesn't even take an exceptional player to work with.
Most Prot Monk skills are simply too fast and effective to interrupt, but Diversion Spam + Decent Enchant Removal still works (and Diversion shuts down their CoP for 60 seconds if they use it for removal.) Further, a Prot Monk isn't going to be keeping a team alive on his own against a couple decent damagers.
I wouldn't say this style is massively more effective than spike, but with coordination it can be as effective. On a personal level I find it a lot more fun than "3...2...1...spike!" but naturally your mileage may vary.
Draygo Korvan
Pro spirit is a 1/4th second cast time, it is very castable during the spike. if its an OB spike prot spirit will prevent some damage.
Best way to stop a spike is to shutdown/interrupt one of the spikers.
Cry of frustration > ob spike anyday.
3 mesmers running migrane, and conjure can really ruin the enemy teams monks day, allowing 2 people to easily kill enemies.
DoT builds are rarly just -10 dgen on all enemies, they do a steady rate of spell/physical damage as well. Monks cannot outheal dgen builds that are done correctly.
Best way to stop a spike is to shutdown/interrupt one of the spikers.
Cry of frustration > ob spike anyday.
3 mesmers running migrane, and conjure can really ruin the enemy teams monks day, allowing 2 people to easily kill enemies.
DoT builds are rarly just -10 dgen on all enemies, they do a steady rate of spell/physical damage as well. Monks cannot outheal dgen builds that are done correctly.
Shen Xi
best example of a dps build that still works against a lot of teams, lol, IWAY!
Or how about condition builds? they work nicely and aren't about spike.
Or how about condition builds? they work nicely and aren't about spike.
Executioner
Personaly i dont think the timed spike is problem, its a stable part of GW for at least 75% of builds be it a combined warrior spike or full ele spike, i like the idea of a total dmg thresh hold thou, but i think this would cause to many problems in the game meta, the 0 cast time on some skills thou i really like, since you cant cast prot spirit/guardian on someone that is dead before the cast time finishes, currently the game meta is very hit and hope for prot spirit and infuse vs spike cordination vs counter spike selection speed, if the spike is good (and you have even the slightest ping delay) you dont stand a chance unless you have 600+ health, since predicting the spiked target is very hard if not impossable.
heh cry of frustration will have no effect on a good obs spike group, 1 dead mesmer very fast.. and thats with the cry in effect..
heh cry of frustration will have no effect on a good obs spike group, 1 dead mesmer very fast.. and thats with the cry in effect..
myword
no to condition builds 
UltimaXtreme
guild wars will have the best pvp that any game would ever have dreamed of, and it always will be.
stop complaining
stop complaining
tomcruisejr
chaos always works best against organized spike.
once spikers lost their coordination, they will drop like flies.
pvp strategy, not whining, is teh key.
once spikers lost their coordination, they will drop like flies.
pvp strategy, not whining, is teh key.
TheCrimsonBlur
Uh, good monks can outheal even the best spikes. Booned Reversals, Infuse Health Spikes, and well placed Words (well, against slower spikes) are usually enough to save you from anything. Why do people feel the need to "make more monk spells 0 cast time" or change the game whenever they cant adapt to it? Look at monk skills. Pick the ones with fast cast times. Realize that Orison is not always "teh uber awesome standard for all monks" and drop it every once in a while. Have your protters not use maintained enchants much (ever experience enchant removal spikes? maintained enchants help spikers).
Spiking is the name of the game these days but you have to adapt. This is a fast paced game (this isnt PvE kiddos). Get used to it.
Spiking is the name of the game these days but you have to adapt. This is a fast paced game (this isnt PvE kiddos). Get used to it.
MarkyX
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Sekkira
Killing the monk first can be a good idea. However, it's easier to get your mesmer/ranger to shut them down first. Of course, once they've done that, why kill something that can't do anything? Kill the things that are still blowing you up first, then finish off that poor frustrated healer.
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That way, their offensive power is shut down for about 16 seconds and I get to my way with the monks.
MarkyX
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Originally Posted by Racthoh
If a primary warrior brought those two skills in, I would be quite confused seeing as how they are both shouts. It would require your target, hopefully the one who is the target of the spike, to be in ward range to be hit by the shout.
Also, the +50 AL that Shield's Up! grants you can pretty much toss aside as a form of defense. Any ranger running Kindle Arrows or an elemental string bypasses that nifty defense. Even at 12 tactics on say a e/w warder, the blocking is only 34% (I believe) and it only lasts for 18 seconds with a 30 second recharge. A 12 second window is more than enough for a ranger spike to drop a target, if not multiple ones. |
I rather risk a skill slot then be a useless warrior in armor. Also, if the warrior is out of range, guess what? The moron is overextending himself.
KuTeBaka
Quote:
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Originally Posted by twicky_kid
since you think so they i'd like to see you walk into tombs and put a full degen on the entire team and watch the monk heal the degen the entire battle. DOT does not win you games. you can use DOT if you can effectively shut down the monks. against a good team that isn't going to happen often and if it does it won't be long. every monk is running CoP now and there is nothing to stop it b/c its a skill not a spell. diversion can make the recharge longer but it wears off in 6 seconds.
i'm not referring to the common half assed teams you run into. i'm talking about good teams that know what they are doing DOT isn't going to work. |
Mystical
One common ground between each spike listed; they have some sort of elemental damage. There are others, ie: FoC/Desecrate Enchantments spike, that will get through but on the most part just bring Ward Against Elements and Ward Against Harm and now the spike can be out healed.
On the topic of wards, I don't believe I've ever been in a group who has not brang them and successed.
On the topic of wards, I don't believe I've ever been in a group who has not brang them and successed.
twicky_kid
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Originally Posted by KuTeBaka
Theres a little someting called pressure...
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wand a random target, caller calls and then count down and obsidian flame the called target. with everyone attacking a random target their prot monk isn't going to know who to protect.
after spike run in and crystal wave.
i think seeing 2+ of my teammates kill over in 3 seconds would be enough pressure on my team.
Wasteland Squidget
Quote:
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Originally Posted by twicky_kid
why would i need pressure when i can kill 2-3 targets per 7 seconds?
wand a random target, caller calls and then count down and obsidian flame the called target. with everyone attacking a random target their prot monk isn't going to know who to protect. after spike run in and crystal wave. i think seeing 2+ of my teammates kill over in 3 seconds would be enough pressure on my team. |
Ranger Spike is a bit stronger because it requires two people shut down (the order spammer and one Ranger) to effectively counter the spike, and Rangers as a whole are pretty difficult to shut down. There aren't that many reliable hexes that do it effectively, and conditions are too easily removed.
Even Ranger Spike isn't nearly as effective as a proper mixed spike, where different classes combine high-damage abilities so one or two specific counters isn't feasable.
Shields Up may own Ranger Spikes and Prot Spirit may own Ele spikes, but no one specific counter will own a spike made up of a warrior, two necros, a Ranger spiker, and an Earth Ele. The difficulty with this type of spike is timing the various skills so they all trigger at the same time, through different casting times and variables. This obviously requires a much more coordinated team, but the spike is inevitably more effective.
Loomy
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Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget
I've played against a lot of Obsidian Flame spikers - with proper coordination they're not a bad team, but I can't say I've ever actually lost to them. Every time, we've just shut down one of their spikers and watched them be suddenly unable to bring anybody down.
Ranger Spike is a bit stronger because it requires two people shut down (the order spammer and one Ranger) to effectively counter the spike, and Rangers as a whole are pretty difficult to shut down. There aren't that many reliable hexes that do it effectively, and conditions are too easily removed. Even Ranger Spike isn't nearly as effective as a proper mixed spike, where different classes combine high-damage abilities so one or two specific counters isn't feasable. Shields Up may own Ranger Spikes and Prot Spirit may own Ele spikes, but no one specific counter will own a spike made up of a warrior, two necros, a Ranger spiker, and an Earth Ele. The difficulty with this type of spike is timing the various skills so they all trigger at the same time, through different casting times and variables. This obviously requires a much more coordinated team, but the spike is inevitably more effective. |
-Loki-
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget
Suddenly it would be necessary to shut down enemy Monks rather than simply ignoring them, and FoTMs in general would be much harder to pull off, as the 'good' builds would have to incorporate a mix of Monk shutdown and strong damage.
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