E/R's: The Redheaded Stepchildren?

The more and more I play my E/R, people just tend to take me for my nuking but in clutch areas and whatnot, my traps and bow skills can get the group out of many a jam <I've did it more then once>, although I'm more widely accepted as a Elementalist, I just took it for energy storage and nukes. The rest I poured into ranger skills, and I must say, I'm pretty damn good <In my opinion> with my pet able to tank things while I nuke-away. Happy day!

Any comments on why E/R's get refused from a group when I say "Nuker or Trapper LFG UW" and mostly I always get refused, cause they didn't need an extra nuker, but needed a ranger ..I'm like "Hello, you idiot, I can trap just as well as the next guy because of energy storage" Granted, I can't take a hit to save my life, but if you get a group in UW thats good at trapping, you don't even need a cleric because they die die die.

They're like "Expertise! We need fast trappers!" Well there might be some truth to this, I still can lay traps down in rapid succession that other rangers would have to wait for energy to rise again, not to mention once traps are sprung, I can meteor shower to keep them in the vicinity of the traps. Love Knockdown! =)

But to the main point: Why do people refuse me? I'm as good as the next guy, but if they want a trapper, they tend to only like primaries. And if a FoW group needs a nuker, I'm right at home..it's like two different worlds that run on the same ideals. I'm needed there, but because of my "Ranger" secondary, Trapping groups don't want me..

Someone help me out...and clarify what these idiots are doing by refusing me =/

--The Shim

it's a decent idea. I know that energy storage can boost the effectiveness of another build designed around a seperate main class. However for trapping energy storage really doesn't help. Expertise is such a perfect main attribute for rangers. 16 expertise turns 25 Energy traps into 9 energy traps, 15 energy traps into 5 energy traps, 10 energy traps into 4 energy traps...You really can't beat that even with Energy Storage. Not to mention that without a 16 in WS you really aren't all that effective as a trapper.

It's nice to see someone thinking outside the box. And I'm sure on a balanced team you could be somewhat effective. But in a trap team you're the broken end of the paddle.

but think, with energy storage, I'm not worried about dropping all those and then nuking to finish it off for a nice flourish to the others traps..but yes, thinking outside the box, and it is based off a primary, but it still works, very well, even without 16 because no hat/sup..I still can hit 12 fairly easy. 12 there, max energy <sup rune>, and rest Fire/Beast, still not doing as much as they are, but I get the extra knockdown from my nukes to keep in place if a trap needs reset..I call it, "The Support Trapper" build.

Just bumpin this. I want to see some people's answers.

--The Shim

It is an interesting idea, but any rogue builds are shunned.

People have it in their heads that :
Warriors tank.
Eles nuke
Rangers do lousy damage, but trap or interrupt
Necros are power sources
Monks heal
Mesmers sit there looking pretty

If you try to do anything outside of those roles you'll have trouble - why? Because they are addicted to the easy-to-assemble package of nukers, tanks and healers.

Even trapping is only done in specific parties - try to get a pug to let you set even a single row of traps for the warrior to lure aggro into and without a doubt all will charge by them, forcing a trapper build to play as a combat trapper, and reducing the effectiveness of strategically placed traps. Your Elementalist does wardsand protection? No - they'll opt for a monk. You are a curse necromancer using illusion to interfere with melee? No thanks, we'l take the battery over here - power for nuker/healer ftw!!eleven!

People are stupid. You'll have to make your own groups, and instead of the generic "LF nuker" think of what you really need. DO you really need that 2nd (3rd?) monk? Would reducing incoming damage be better? Maybe the guy who says he uses sympathetic visage while tanking has a point? Without adrenaline the enemies don't deal as much damage. I guess I just like odd builds, so I'll build my party not on a profession basis, but on a "task" basis - what tasks can you do for the party, and does it complement our build?

The plain and simple truth is that people are narrow-minded. I tend to try oddball builds from time to time and find those are the builds I find most interesting. I have a N/R and had a helluva time getting invited to trap the UW. I was hoping to charm a Spider (which I finally had the chance to do after much begging)...I find that 12 in WS is less effective than the 16 my R/N has, but when you saturate the ground with traps, the difference is negligable. The thing I find humorous here...now I see quite a few Trapping Parties inviting a necro along...seems we make great batteries (a term I personally find offensive as a necro - I prefer: Source of power for the energy-challenged). I like the idea you have for the E/R...I see your reasoning and think the idea sports some merrit for being less-than-typical...currently I'm working out the bugs in Mo/R build with a tanking pet...so far so good.

I think the reason your E/R gets rejected by UW trapping groups is that most people believe the primary class determines gameplay. When I say something to the extent of "E/Mo lfg. Will set up as nuker, healer, or tank," half the time I am greeted with "You can't heal/tank!" In reality, my E/Mo can spam Healing or Protection spells longer than a primary Monk, especially if I crack myself out with Ether Prodigy, and stand in the face of Aatxes with Ward Against Melee, Armor of Earth and Kinetic Armor up, rezzing the W/Mo's who so like their little dirt naps. I may not have Divine Favor to trigger or a big and powerful weapon to swing, but I fill the roles no one expects me to with an Elementalist - because most people who play online games unfortunately lack creativity, or dedication, or time to examine the interactions between not only different skills but also different professions. I mean, battery Necromancers did not get popular until recently, while the skills have been there all along. Rather than create something for themselves, most people prefer to coast on established and proven skillsets and party combinations in order to assure they succeed.

I can't even get my water ele into a group right now in Kryta, no one even knows what Blurred Vision + Deep Freeze is, or wth snaring is.

And the only time I pretty much ever got a group without bein with a guidie monk or nuker was for Thirsty River where I said I could f up the last enemy monk like no ones biznitude to win the mission hands down.

But yeah, back on topic, the E/R trapper seems like a good idea, It just comes down to the whole, you have an E in the beginning of your name, you better nuke.

I used my ele like it was a trapper (I posted that earlier I think) and it does play differently

First thing I noticed is that using all 3 traps (no spike) I tend to run out of energy in no time.
When using just barbed and flame I could continue laying traps as my traps recharged and not run out of energy.
Also max ws is just 12 ofcourse, but when in a large trapper party (6 or more trappers) this doesn't realy hurt the team anyway. You'll probably do better then the newb trappers imo.

What gives the E/R Trapper an edge is using ele skills that give better support then ranger skills (like blinding from a distance using blinding flash instead of having to use throwdirt, often getting hit by an aaxte atleast once) or using enervating charge so aaxtes needed 4 hits instead of just 2 to kill someone.

I used a quest reward longbow 11-18dmg which only required 3 marksmanship (so costing only 6 attribute points) or you could do away with marksmanship completely and bring something like kindle (is a ws skill, and you'll be able to do damage while you can recharge your energy reserves)

It's definately fun and interesting to make such a build work well, and if done properly it will

I'd have to say people are stupid then.

Though the expertise is nice, you have about 4x the energy of a primary ranger anyway. Nothing to stop you getting 12 WS if you really need to, along with your ES. I'd be very happy to have you in a group. As you say, if the groups get through your traps, its not a good sign anyway

i think the answer to your question has already been mentioned. most pugs cannot even fathom the idea of a non standard build, so they simply reject it. as an experienced uw trapper, i'll tell you now that anyone making a group of 4-5 trappers and absolutely requires you to have 16 ws is a noob trapper. my bro and i dual trap in uw with only 14 in ws each. 3+ trappers at 16 ws makes it easier, but is certainly not necessary.

with that said, i honestly don't know how you can solve your problem. that's how pugs are and i doubt they will ever change.

Funny thing happened the other day...I Hate (note the cap H) to form parties...seems everyone likes to be in a group, but rarely likes to start one. I went against my usual proclivities and started a PUG with "tired of looking for a group? Invite self to mixed group....noobs welcome, monks optional."
Group of 8 formed in less than a minute...we sucked at first but got a regular rhythm down and made a bit of gold and had one gold drop and 3 ecto (sadly, none for me)...totally woth it though.

Let me try this one more time without my post being deleted.

E/R trappers don't work. To be a competant trapper, you need 15+ Wilderness, and 10+ Expertise. Yes Energy storage is a slight compensation, but does nothing for the fact that your traps will be far less effective. On top of this, if you max out WS and ES, your not going to have many attributes left for much "nuking", let alone energy.

Wasn't this one of the general populus mentioned? OMG STADANRDIZED BUILD NAZI!

My E/R trapper is lucky I guess. I used to fine trap groups all the time and we cleared the smites every time. Energy Storage+Ether Prodigy=unlimited traps basically for me. Only had to wait for exhaustion every few times.

Due to the number of players these days most people are just judging from primarys as they themselves don't experiment with combinations and only took a secondary because they had to.

For areas like FOW, UW and SF people are used to getting certain things from certain character types like Epinephrine said, and they aren't willing to try something a little different.

e/r may use bow and pett attacks to gain energy.

ignore anyone who ignores your knowledge.

Wow, 168 energy?

I usually go with 3 people, and I prefer primary rangers.
16 ws is not necessary, but 12, imo, is too low in very small teams.

But me ele can set twice as many traps as you can :P so that 4 extra att points don't really matter.

No you can't. A good team traps for around a minute, not half an hour.
I never run out of energy (druidic armor+staff+high expertise+qz+ew).
Sometimes I have to wait for traps recharge, but never for energy.

In 6/7/8 people teams you can even pick a war/ranger.

In 2- or 3-trappers team I'm sorry, but I go with primary rangers.

Lol no you can't have twice as many traps. Its all relative really, you will have the same number of traps if not less, rangers will be able to spam traps because of Expertise and SQ.

As for not being taken into UW or FOW... trying being a mesmer You will get used to it quickly, then try being a mesmer that runs ranger skills, etc.... There are alot of great rogue builds, but people have tunnel vision.

Funny how Rangers (one of the least picked classes for a PUG) would be so narrow-minded...12 WS does a fair bit of damage for traps...small groups aside, anyone using a ranger secondary can effectively add to trap damage AND offer the primary prowess of another profession....I've trapped with Ele, Necro, and War primaries to great effect and fun (groups of 6 or so)...and as a Necro with Ranger secondary...I do OK. yeah, yeah, yeah...we ranger seconds do less trap damage, but while ranger primaries are poking smites and getting knocked down for 6-8 damage, someone with a different primary can take care of smites that get around traps because of a pull gone wrong. Life Transfer heals me up quick. I've played as a trapper with ranger primary and secondary and figure as long as I focus on what I'm doing all goes well...best teams are made of players who play well together, not neccessarliy those who have the most power and weild it foolishly...nothing worse than an elite snob who beleives there is only one way to play...I usually see people drop from these groups quickly, but get an oddball PUG willing to laugh at bone-head mistakes and offer advice instead of barking orders and I'm in until the job's done. Ele-Ranger? Bravo!!! If you can make it work, go for it...you'll be trap-weak, but while others only scratch mobs with their bow damage (lacking damage skills for bow)...a well-placed meteor shower may save the day...I applaud you (again) for thinking outside the box.

used a teams of e/r trappers and won 3 matches in a row tombs. people just don't expect it to come from eles.

had lots of energy trouble though.

Anything you said past this point is worthless.

Trapping is about small 3-4 man teams. Any other argument you make pro or con is not relevant.

I've turned away E/Rs from my trapping groups in UW before - perhaps even the OP. Anyone that slams trapper groups for being picky have never run a trapper group filled with people that have little clue what it takes to be a good trapper. With 3-4 rangers, you can tell when people are not maxxed in their WS (16) or expertise. These are the ones that:

Use a bow. When they shoot a dying nightmare, they kill it in 1-2 shots. That means their Attribute points are not optimized to WS and Expertise.

Stand around a lot, waiting for their energy to refresh, which means their expertise isn't maxxed. As someone else said, druids armor (at least the vest) with a staff that gives energy (insightful mod even better), a ranger can spam all the traps they want *IF* their expertise is maxxed.

But like I said, you can tell. When you pull that group of monsters, they don't die, you have to work them after the initial traps go off and they still have about 1/2 their health.

Yeah, their build would "work" - but is a lot more inefficient than a ranger primary, and frankly, with as many rangers hanging out in TOA, I don't have to saddle any PUG I'm forming with a less than efficient build. In addition, once I start inviting ranger secondarys, PUG members will drop like flies.

And I get tired of rangers joining PUGs with points in their marksmanship for UW trapping groups. They sit and plink at monsters with their widdle arrows instead of continuing to lay traps yet fail to understand that traps do the most damage, cripple, blind and set on fire the monsters. By standing back and plinking instead of dealing out better damage with traps, tehy are putting at risk the trappers that DO continue to lay traps in front of the mosnters, risking their lives doing all of the real damage.

And when you try and tell these people that in order to be an effective trapper you need to have maxxed ws and expertise, zero points in marksmanship, and carry a 10+ energy staff. They ALWAYS come back and say "well, this is working". Yeah, it's working because the trappers set up properly are carrying your load, in spite of your ignorance.

You want to trap? Go make a ranger and come back. It costs nothing to switch around attribute points, and if you don't want to "spoil" your armor with that superior marksmanship rune, go buy a cheap set of armor and put in that superior WS rune in it, and switch out when you want to trap.

Trapping and Farming is "work" time, not goof off time. Rangers are working for ecto, not fame, or a beauty contest.

Oh - and narrow minded? Why should we look for anything but a ranger for a trapping group? Do we demand solo monks to take us along when they go farming?

Dont have much problems with that. Guess it may have something to do with the necro secondary and spiteful spirit.

Cant understand why people dont like those that use theyre secondary. My most effective pve build is a Me/N using fast casting and curses