This really pisses me off. I just henched the High Priest Alkar quest. I killed the last Dredge Blastrock. I IMMEDIATELY hit Storm Chaser, then ran like hell back to the Temple. SIX ENEMIES APPROACHED THE PRIEST!!! He died before the henchies even caught up to me! HE DIED EVEN THOUGH I WENT BACK TO HIM AS FAST AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE! I WASTED FIFTY MINUTES TRYING TO DO THIS STUPID QUEST!
I've finished this quest before with henchies! WHY IS IT IMPOSSIBLE NOW?!
What the Hell Happened to High Priest Alkar's Quest?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
Loch
Maxiemonster
ArenaNet tries to improve the social skills from gamers.
Loch
Unless I'm playing with my guild, that won't work. All the other PuG's I've joined for that quest couldn't even get the second crystal. =\
Shyft the Pyro
Most likely, the reason ANet changed the quest was to promote cooperative gameplay. Yes, the number of districts in Deldrimor War Camp has dwindled, but that still does not mean you should be able to do all the Furnace quests alone. Especially a quest which needs you to split up the party, just like the Dunes of Despair bonus. If you're going to ignore the "protect the NPC" part while focusing on "do something else" part, you should, in my opinion, be penalized.
BTW, my N/Me still needs that quest. PM me if you want to have a go at it together.
BTW, my N/Me still needs that quest. PM me if you want to have a go at it together.
KANE OG
Hahahahahahaha! That's just good, funny stuff.
BBoy_Manchild
that mission isnt so hard to do with pugs, a "decent" and i say "decent" cause 90% of wars in the game are not even up to that skill lvl, should be able to protect alkor by themselves, alkor will heal the war protecting him, even if you cant kill the enemies fast, you are just buying time for your teammates
Loch
From my experience, splitting up is a bad idea. It's good to have one or two players watch out for patrols, instead of having me drag the henchies back every time I approach a new group, but don't forget that the dredge groups are still pretty big. The point of having someone with Alkar is so the team can be alerted when a patrol appears; having enough players to kill everything that hits Alkar would leave your main group far too weak. So if I'm going back to protect Alkar as often as possible, and that doesn't work, then how would having one extra player with him help at all?
Maybe Alkar has Word of Healing which requires a "target other ally" to use, and he wants that player to take all the damage. I don't know, but making a quest un-henchable is just stupid. Especially considering the quest isn't even worth a whole lot (except for the satisfaction of having the SF quests done). Whoopee, spend an hour to get mediocre experience and crappy drops, where do I sign?
You know, ANet could crack down on REAL soloing (ie high-level-area solo farming) instead of our pseudo-soloing with henchies. Using henchies isn't exploiting anything - we still get crappy drop rates like real groups, and plus we have to command heroes with limited AI (it's something I work around, you can't blame the devs for not designing human-like AI). I really believed the game was supposed to be playable with henchies.
Maybe Alkar has Word of Healing which requires a "target other ally" to use, and he wants that player to take all the damage. I don't know, but making a quest un-henchable is just stupid. Especially considering the quest isn't even worth a whole lot (except for the satisfaction of having the SF quests done). Whoopee, spend an hour to get mediocre experience and crappy drops, where do I sign?
You know, ANet could crack down on REAL soloing (ie high-level-area solo farming) instead of our pseudo-soloing with henchies. Using henchies isn't exploiting anything - we still get crappy drop rates like real groups, and plus we have to command heroes with limited AI (it's something I work around, you can't blame the devs for not designing human-like AI). I really believed the game was supposed to be playable with henchies.
Shyft the Pyro
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loch
From my experience, splitting up is a bad idea. It's good to have one or two players watch out for patrols, instead of having me drag the henchies back every time I approach a new group, but don't forget that the dredge groups are still pretty big. The point of having someone with Alkar is so the team can be alerted when a patrol appears; having enough players to kill everything that hits Alkar would leave your main group far too weak. So if I'm going back to protect Alkar as often as possible, and that doesn't work, then how would having one extra player with him help at all?
Maybe Alkar has Word of Healing which requires a "target other ally" to use, and he wants that player to take all the damage. I don't know, but making a quest un-henchable is just stupid. Especially considering the quest isn't even worth a whole lot (except for the satisfaction of having the SF quests done). Whoopee, spend an hour to get mediocre experience and crappy drops, where do I sign?
You know, ANet could crack down on REAL soloing (ie high-level-area solo farming) instead of our pseudo-soloing with henchies. Using henchies isn't exploiting anything - we still get crappy drop rates like real groups, and plus we have to command heroes with limited AI (it's something I work around, you can't blame the devs for not designing human-like AI). I really believed the game was supposed to be playable with henchies. While sometimes I may feel the same way as you (especially when I wish to open up all the hidden nooks of EA's) the game was not meant to be played with henchies alone. If it was, there would be an "offline" mode, the way Diablo had, for players who needed no help. Guild Wars was billed as a cooperative online game, and I will welcome any changes that try to reinforce that - even if those changes nerf my ability to hench it up in more places. As is, cooperation in missions is made virtually unnecessary after the desert with the introduction of the second monk there. My N/Me (not a very strong PvE character on its own, as you'll agree) was able to hench through every desert and South Shiverpeaks mission, missing the bonus only on Glint (duh) and Dunes of Despair, where it is necessary for the party to split 4-2 or 5-1 in order to complete it. My E/Mo henched up every desert, South Shiverpeaks, and Ring of Fire mission, missing out only on the above two bonuses. I'm pretty sure that when my R/W gets to the desert, she will have just as smooth a sailing as the previous two. Again, I love the fact that I can succeed on a tough mission alone rather than be brought down by impatient noobs, but I don't think this should be a case everywhere.
Sorrow's Furnace was supposed to offer increased challenge to ascended players, even if ascension was not necessary for entry; I took that to mean that greater cooperation would be required to complete the quests. In my opinion, the Furnace quests are listed in the quest log in order of increasing difficulty. Galen Trask may be a joke to hench, and only detrimental because it is time-consuming, but Killroy takes more effort, as if you don't know ahead of time the targets he will charge you need to aim henchies on the fly to keep up with him. Alkar and Orozar, then, represent a greater degree of cooperation expected from the players - at least if done precisely as intended and not through various player-introduced exploits.
And just to be clear, by "splitting up" I did not mean leaving half the party with Alkar. There are, however, proper strategies for killing off each wave of three attackers on Alkar before the next one can come up (which incidentally is exactly identical to the tactics Forgotten and Enchanted use when attacking Ghostly Hero in Dunes of Despair). Real soloing was nerfed/is being nerfed/will be nerfed further. But henchman AI is superior to player intelligence in that it cooperates to the extreme. I see player cooperation as something that GW designers wish to encourage, and introducing quests where players have to work together instead of relying on the unflinching cooperation of henchmen is, in my opinion, a good thing.
Maybe Alkar has Word of Healing which requires a "target other ally" to use, and he wants that player to take all the damage. I don't know, but making a quest un-henchable is just stupid. Especially considering the quest isn't even worth a whole lot (except for the satisfaction of having the SF quests done). Whoopee, spend an hour to get mediocre experience and crappy drops, where do I sign?
You know, ANet could crack down on REAL soloing (ie high-level-area solo farming) instead of our pseudo-soloing with henchies. Using henchies isn't exploiting anything - we still get crappy drop rates like real groups, and plus we have to command heroes with limited AI (it's something I work around, you can't blame the devs for not designing human-like AI). I really believed the game was supposed to be playable with henchies. While sometimes I may feel the same way as you (especially when I wish to open up all the hidden nooks of EA's) the game was not meant to be played with henchies alone. If it was, there would be an "offline" mode, the way Diablo had, for players who needed no help. Guild Wars was billed as a cooperative online game, and I will welcome any changes that try to reinforce that - even if those changes nerf my ability to hench it up in more places. As is, cooperation in missions is made virtually unnecessary after the desert with the introduction of the second monk there. My N/Me (not a very strong PvE character on its own, as you'll agree) was able to hench through every desert and South Shiverpeaks mission, missing the bonus only on Glint (duh) and Dunes of Despair, where it is necessary for the party to split 4-2 or 5-1 in order to complete it. My E/Mo henched up every desert, South Shiverpeaks, and Ring of Fire mission, missing out only on the above two bonuses. I'm pretty sure that when my R/W gets to the desert, she will have just as smooth a sailing as the previous two. Again, I love the fact that I can succeed on a tough mission alone rather than be brought down by impatient noobs, but I don't think this should be a case everywhere.
Sorrow's Furnace was supposed to offer increased challenge to ascended players, even if ascension was not necessary for entry; I took that to mean that greater cooperation would be required to complete the quests. In my opinion, the Furnace quests are listed in the quest log in order of increasing difficulty. Galen Trask may be a joke to hench, and only detrimental because it is time-consuming, but Killroy takes more effort, as if you don't know ahead of time the targets he will charge you need to aim henchies on the fly to keep up with him. Alkar and Orozar, then, represent a greater degree of cooperation expected from the players - at least if done precisely as intended and not through various player-introduced exploits.
And just to be clear, by "splitting up" I did not mean leaving half the party with Alkar. There are, however, proper strategies for killing off each wave of three attackers on Alkar before the next one can come up (which incidentally is exactly identical to the tactics Forgotten and Enchanted use when attacking Ghostly Hero in Dunes of Despair). Real soloing was nerfed/is being nerfed/will be nerfed further. But henchman AI is superior to player intelligence in that it cooperates to the extreme. I see player cooperation as something that GW designers wish to encourage, and introducing quests where players have to work together instead of relying on the unflinching cooperation of henchmen is, in my opinion, a good thing.
Loch
Well, I agree that requiring more cooperation from players can only be a good thing considering how easy PvE is. C'mon, Thunderhead Keep is a complete joke with henchmen, and this is supposed to be a tough mission.
It's just that when I'm not PvP'ing, I enjoy going out to Sorrow's Furnace with henchmen at my own pace. The rewards for doing so aren't spectacular. I still get terrible drops just like any other 8-player team, plus it takes longer because henchies don't employ skillsets that maximize their performance. The quests don't even offer a whole lot; doing a quest for an hour doesn't net me near the amount of experience that the Underworld or Fissure of Woe does (then again, those places require a fee to enter and the arbitrary Favor system). I figured this was okay, since these quests at least allowed me to use henchmen and play at my leisure.
But not anymore. I thought henching was supposed to be a legitimate way of playing SF, but apparently not. I guess I'll just have to find a few half-decent players. We know that won't happen in the War Camp, so it's either guildmates or just skipping PvE altogether.
Actually, Pyro, what's your IGN? I'd be more than happy to give that quest a shot with you. Especially since you actually understand the importance of teamwork.
It's just that when I'm not PvP'ing, I enjoy going out to Sorrow's Furnace with henchmen at my own pace. The rewards for doing so aren't spectacular. I still get terrible drops just like any other 8-player team, plus it takes longer because henchies don't employ skillsets that maximize their performance. The quests don't even offer a whole lot; doing a quest for an hour doesn't net me near the amount of experience that the Underworld or Fissure of Woe does (then again, those places require a fee to enter and the arbitrary Favor system). I figured this was okay, since these quests at least allowed me to use henchmen and play at my leisure.
But not anymore. I thought henching was supposed to be a legitimate way of playing SF, but apparently not. I guess I'll just have to find a few half-decent players. We know that won't happen in the War Camp, so it's either guildmates or just skipping PvE altogether.
Actually, Pyro, what's your IGN? I'd be more than happy to give that quest a shot with you. Especially since you actually understand the importance of teamwork.
4runner
well it can be done with henchies, i just did it last night with a ranger(me) a monk(guildmate)war(pug) and the rest henchies! the trick is when you split up to take the dredges, leave a ranger who traps with the priest trap the top of the stairs the top not the middle, you want to by time for your team to provide backup. i brought 3 traps, spike,barbed,& dust trapped the shit out of the stairs also hopefully your ranger will bring poison and a interupt, you should be ok!! Its been done!! Actually it seems easier now than before!!
Tactical-Dillusions
I was going to suggest that you pull the groups towrds the priest before you kill them...but alas, i remembered the AI change that stops them following you.
lol.
lol.
Guild Wars Junkie
I just got to Sorrow's Furnace for the first time about 30 minutes ago. That quest was the first one I tried, I managed to get 3 crystalines then on the fourth the priest got killed.
Shyft the Pyro
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loch
It's just that when I'm not PvP'ing, I enjoy going out to Sorrow's Furnace with henchmen at my own pace. The rewards for doing so aren't spectacular. I still get terrible drops just like any other 8-player team, plus it takes longer because henchies don't employ skillsets that maximize their performance. The quests don't even offer a whole lot; doing a quest for an hour doesn't net me near the amount of experience that the Underworld or Fissure of Woe does (then again, those places require a fee to enter and the arbitrary Favor system). I figured this was okay, since these quests at least allowed me to use henchmen and play at my leisure.
But not anymore. I thought henching was supposed to be a legitimate way of playing SF, but apparently not. I guess I'll just have to find a few half-decent players. We know that won't happen in the War Camp, so it's either guildmates or just skipping PvE altogether.
Quote: Originally Posted by 4runner well it can be done with henchies, i just did it last night with a ranger(me) a monk(guildmate)war(pug) and the rest henchies! the trick is when you split up to take the dredges, leave a ranger who traps with the priest trap the top of the stairs the top not the middle, you want to by time for your team to provide backup. i brought 3 traps, spike,barbed,& dust trapped the shit out of the stairs also hopefully your ranger will bring poison and a interupt, you should be ok!! Its been done!! Actually it seems easier now than before!! Loch's whole point was to do the quest without any human assistance, with 7 henchies in the party. What you did was prove that when you split up the party, the quest can be accomplished as intended by game designers. Henchmen AI, however, prevents one of them from staying behind and protecting Alkar while you take the rest on your crystal hunt.
Quote:
I just got to Sorrow's Furnace for the first time about 30 minutes ago. That quest was the first one I tried, I managed to get 3 crystalines then on the fourth the priest got killed.
If you're going to go into SF alone, try Galen Trask first. Besides being the easiest, that quest gives a lot of hidden background information.
Second, could you please quote the part of the box that "says so"? Because as hard as I looked at mine, I found no reference to completing the game alone. Did you mean that the text you refer to is inside the manual?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Sonya
GW's is about human contact, the PVP portion and Guilds that is all. Also I had no trouble with the Charr Warbands using henchies. In fact I went through most of the entire game with henchies because of people like you who think we're suppose to group all the time or anytime YOU need us. lol Just tain't so.
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First off, as I've said above, I love the henchies. I've completed every mission with just them after the desert, and only missed out on Glint and Dunes of Despair bonuses. The point is that some things are just hard for everyone to complete with henchies, because some challenges are designed to be inadequate. Whether it's the Dunes of Despair bonus or High Priest Alkar quest, henchies just don't know how to split up.|
Originally Posted by Loch
Actually, Pyro, what's your IGN? I'd be more than happy to give that quest a shot with you. Especially since you actually understand the importance of teamwork.
<---- Though my primary character is listed, my N/Me is the one that needs the quest. Its IGN is "A Little Death" but I don't think I'll be able to play GW until Thursday night (college + last 2 weeks of classes =
4runner
y
Loch's whole point was to do the quest without any human assistance, with 7 henchies in the party. What you did was prove that when you split up the party, the quest can be accomplished as intended by game designers. Henchmen AI, however, prevents one of them from staying behind and protecting Alkar while you take the rest on your crystal hunt. Yah i kinda figure that after posting!!!! Humbly, SirShadowrunner
I tried this one about one weeek ago, with all henchies, got two crystals and then
the king died, I have an idea for this, just have not had time to try it out. The patrols that attack the king are (I believe) triggered by either you moving so far from the king or starting a fight. When the henchies and I went up the stairs to get the crystal at the top, about halfway thru the fight the king got attacked, we ran back killed off the mob and then went back up and finshed off the rest of the pack and got the crystal and the king was not attacked again, until we moved towards the other crystal, we only went so far then the king got attacked ran back killed the mob and then went after the crystal, the third one was a little to far or I went to far and did not get back in time and the king died, but I think this is doable with henchies, just need to figure out exactly when and how the mobs are triggered. Sirshadowrunner
Shyft the Pyro
Quote:
Originally Posted by SirShadowrunner
I tried this one about one weeek ago, with all henchies, got two crystals and then the king died, I have an idea for this, just have not had time to try it out.
The patrols that attack the king are (I believe) triggered by either you moving so far from the king or starting a fight. When the henchies and I went up the stairs to get the crystal at the top, about halfway thru the fight the king got attacked, we ran back killed off the mob and then went back up and finshed off the rest of the pack and got the crystal and the king was not attacked again, until we moved towards the other crystal, we only went so far then the king got attacked ran back killed the mob and then went after the crystal, the third one was a little to far or I went to far and did not get back in time and the king died, but I think this is doable with henchies, just need to figure out exactly when and how the mobs are triggered. First off, he's not a king. You're doing the High Priest Alkar quest, you know Most likely, the mobs trigger the same way Ettins come out of the zone point west of Ascalon Settlement. If you've ever done The Last Hog quest to chase a Prize-Winning Hog back to Farmer Dirk, you might have noticed a couple of Ettins come from the north even if you cleared the way previously. The secret is that there are multiple Ettins that spawn beyond the zone point, and come out when your characters pass a certain point on the path from Lion's Arch to Ascalon Settlement. If you go directly north from Lion's Arch, trek through the swamp and arrive in Ascalon Settlement by walking westward on the beach, all the Ettins will still be "inside" the zone point, even though they will show up on radar and screen. Just as with Alkar, it would be impossible to pinpoint the precise moment the first few Ettins "enter" the zone without leaving someone behind to actually watch them. If you have enough time and similarly-minded guildies, though, more power to you. Let us know how your testing goes
aceryn
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loch
Well, I agree that requiring more cooperation from players can only be a good thing considering how easy PvE is. C'mon, Thunderhead Keep is a complete joke with henchmen, and this is supposed to be a tough mission.
It's just that when I'm not PvP'ing, I enjoy going out to Sorrow's Furnace with henchmen at my own pace. The rewards for doing so aren't spectacular. I still get terrible drops just like any other 8-player team, plus it takes longer because henchies don't employ skillsets that maximize their performance. The quests don't even offer a whole lot; doing a quest for an hour doesn't net me near the amount of experience that the Underworld or Fissure of Woe does (then again, those places require a fee to enter and the arbitrary Favor system). I figured this was okay, since these quests at least allowed me to use henchmen and play at my leisure. But not anymore. I thought henching was supposed to be a legitimate way of playing SF, but apparently not. I guess I'll just have to find a few half-decent players. We know that won't happen in the War Camp, so it's either guildmates or just skipping PvE altogether. Actually, Pyro, what's your IGN? I'd be more than happy to give that quest a shot with you. Especially since you actually understand the importance of teamwork.
I have done all of the SF quests with henchmen except for the Priest quest. I am a minion necro so that helps a lot. I got 3 crystals the last time and then he died. I think they send down two patrols for each group you fight. One gets sent when you first agro the groups, the second comes when you either agro the crystal holder or kill him. I think I can do it the next time successfully. When you said Thunderhead was a joke with henchmen were you saying it was hard or easy? I did it 2 for 2 with henchmen with my minion necro.
Red Sonya
Better read the box again if you don't think the game was meant to be played with henchies. It specifically states that it is and can be.
Uzul
it's true that you get at least 2 spawns per group you fight away from the altar....
you trigger the first one by aggroing: 2nd one on defeat... or crystal drop. the sick thing is the increasing distance... i had the last crystal almost there when i realised i should have ran without it. tough luck ,)
Shyft the Pyro
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Sonya
Better read the box again if you don't think the game was meant to be played with henchies. It specifically states that it is and can be.
That, in my opinion, refers only to completing the game. As in doing all 24 missions without player assistance, which is ridiculously easy.
The information on the box is static while the game is dynamic, changed constantly by play patters (farming patches anyone?) and the desire for increased challenges. Personally, I believe that the "extra" content added for ascended characters is explicitly aimed to promote cooperative gameplay. The reason you cannot enter Fissure or Underworld with henchies is the same reason a fresh post-searing character should have trouble with Charr warbands: you need player cooperation to make the most of the game. If Guild Wars was not about human contact - the way such games were ten years ago - we'd all be playing an offline version right now. Red Sonya
Well that's your own personal opinion, but, that ain't what the box says. So, no, I disagree, they continue to balance for people who want to play with henchies. I do it all the time. Perhaps some things are just hard for "you" to complete with henchies, but, not everyone.
GW's is about human contact, the PVP portion and Guilds that is all. Also I had no trouble with the Charr Warbands using henchies. In fact I went through most of the entire game with henchies because of people like you who think we're suppose to group all the time or anytime YOU need us. lol Just tain't so. And no you don't need other players cooperation to get the "most" out of this game for that is opinionated as well. One persons most will not be the same as the next. And if anything the farming patches have made my life easier in several of the places that I farm, what used to be harder is now even easier, especially after that AI patch and the mobs run away now from AOE, heh that's just less hits I take now for several seconds.
Makkert
take a pug, leave a trapper with Dust trap, 2 other traps, throw dirt and evasive stance behind to take the aggro. GG.
Shyft the Pyro
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Sonya
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Second, could you please quote the part of the box that "says so"? Because as hard as I looked at mine, I found no reference to completing the game alone. Did you mean that the text you refer to is inside the manual?
Quote:
Again, you don't have to join a group all the time. You don't need anyone else in Guild Wars, but you want other people for particular tasks that hench AI is unable to accomplish.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Red Sonya
And no you don't need other players cooperation to get the "most" out of this game for that is opinionated as well. One persons most will not be the same as the next. And if anything the farming patches have made my life easier in several of the places that I farm, what used to be harder is now even easier, especially after that AI patch and the mobs run away now from AOE, heh that's just less hits I take now for several seconds.
What I meant to point out by referring to the farming patches was that the developers consider play patterns when implementing new updates. Which makes Guild Wars updates a constant dialogue between the players and the developers, whether the players are vocal or silent. With each update, the way the game is played changes, and this change is aimed most often to raise the challenge rather than lower it. And yes, you probably could get through "most" of the game alone with as much success as with PUGs, but there will still be certain spots where this strategy will prove inadequate. I see nothing wrong with that.
Iere
All you really need is one other person. Put aside Eve or whoever and take a spare monk or ranger. (ranger to trap, or Monk to avoid aggro and heal alkar).
Hot Dead
Any pug can do it easyily (henchies have no control)
You leave one W/ or E/ (preferably /Mo to help heal the priest if targeted by all) with the priest, and the rest go to kill the mobs My group go to the last crystal, as they were on the way back, I lagged out/DCed... havent tried since then CKaz
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Sonya
Better read the box again if you don't think the game was meant to be played with henchies. It specifically states that it is and can be.
It also mentions immediate access to equal playing field PvP right?
With no mention of the hundreds and hundreds of hours of unlocking?
CKaz
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hot Dead
Any pug can do it easyily (henchies have no control)
You leave one W/ or E/ (preferably /Mo to help heal the priest if targeted by all) with the priest, and the rest go to kill the mobs My group go to the last crystal, as they were on the way back, I lagged out/DCed... havent tried since then In a pug with several henchies and a MM and couple other chars, I stayed back as a glyph of renewal met storm nuker (or echo nuker to most of the masses out there  and kept them busy enough, sometimes cleared them getting the aggro while alkar healed me and the party came back.So yeah 2 players should be able to do any split mission as well. I also am under the impression (being the one on watch) you could figure out the triggers well enough/figure out a build/plan to save the priest in time with any solo character (just may have to work with a different secondary/skills)
Shyft the Pyro
Quote:
Originally Posted by CKaz
It also mentions immediate access to equal playing field PvP right?
With no mention of the hundreds and hundreds of hours of unlocking?
At the very least, that part is true. There are pre-made PvP characters that a new player can just pick up and use without worrying about unlocking. Whether they're good or bad, well... we all know that to do something right, you have to do it yourself As for all the other posters saying the High Priest Alkar quest is easy if you leave someone behind: that was not the OP's point! He wanted to point out that he used to be able to complete the quest with just henchies, and liked it that way. Of course you can do it with just two people, because you're splitting the party to consider both protecting Alkar and recovering the crystals. Henchies cannot do that. |
