Concept Class - Engineer

Class name: Engineer (Mechanist/Gageteer)

Energy: Similar to that of Ranger, 25-30 range.
Armor: On par with that of Ranger class, around 60-70 AL range, but without the extra bouns agasint elements.
Weapons: Musket. A range weapon that has a bit shorter range than the current bow, and longer “reloading” time, but slightly more damage. Will be in the fashion of the Musket that appear before 15th century, fused or flintlock. Has a big bang and puff of smoke when fire. HOWEVER, if people dislike the “high technology” in such setting, for the sake or argument, can also change it to a Crossbow. (see below quote from wiki)

Premise: Engineer is much like a Ranger, with role of offensive supporter, adding damage from the back. Not as good doing spike damages, they still can do some interesting things, and Salvager, their primary, will help them a lot in doing it. They could be a Big hitter if they can build it up with the Siege Expert skills, or a decent range attacker with Musket Expert. Explosive Expert will ensure lots AoE and exploding fun, while Gadget will have skills that help them and other classes. Material is a important concept for them in making them unique.
Emots: Do the Robot Dance!

Attributes:

Salvager (primary)
For every points in attribute, will increase the chance of finding Material by 3%. Also improve link skills (see below for explanation on Material)

Siege Expert - "There are no Walls that I can’t Break, and no wall I build will Break! "
Skills that build up high offensive and defensive siege weapons. Need lots material and time to build.

Explosive Expert - " Kabooom"
Skills that require smaller amount of Material and lt is AoE attack to both enemy and ally and self.

Musket (crossbow) Expert – “I can’t shot as fast or as accurate, but I can’t shoot louder!”
Skills that improve the use of Muskets. Some skills are more Chance base than Bow

Gadget Expert - " Do not Compute"
Robo Minions? And traps, and skills that further help other class.

Special Concept:

Musket: Will no have height adventage as in Bows, be the same in whatever high (maybe about a 10-40 damager range). However, have a distance range, in which there is a max range and optimal range. Max range willl still be shorter than that of a long bow, and will only deal 50% of damages. Optimal range is within max range, (maybe about 15feet) and can feel the full damage. Position in higher ground will increase the optimal range. A slower reloading time than hammer.

Explosive: Explosive skills can damage to its own "caster" if they are withing its AoE range. You can hurt your self with it. Should also have a type of Engineer armor that reduce explosive damage. Explosvie will do extra damages to building type (like Siege Weapons), making them great for demolation purpose.

Materials:
First of all, this is not related to the wood and other crafting item in your inventory. It is kept only as a Counter form, show externally, and exist only virtually. There would be only 4 different kinds of Material, Gear, Timber, Iron Bar, and Stone Slab. You would see a counter (possible on top, or on the side) of your interface, that keep track of the Amount of Material you have. The ways you gain those Materials are simple, for it is passive. For every (5?) second, you will automatically “roll” for a chance to get a Material. (Start at 50/50 chance, with 12 in Salvager Attribute, you have 86% chance, and so on). If you got the material, you will roll again to decide what material you got (10% a Gear, 30% a Timber, Iron Bar, or Stone Slab). Of course, this will all be done automatically and with out your concern, you will just see the count go up by 1. Also you can gain material faster with skills in Salvager attribute. Many of the Engineer’s Built Skill have a Material Requirement, and when the skill is used, that amount will be taken from your counter. Your counter go back to zero when you die or change map. (I will put the requirement as G (Gear), T (Timber), I (Iron) and S (Stone))

Siege Weapons
An Engineer can build Siege Weapons of their Siege attribute lines. They are powerful weapons, but would also require lot more Material, and very limiting. One some, the Engineer will “become” the Siege Weapons, but on other, the Engineer can move away form them, and have other operate them (but will be 50% less efficient in use). Will call one Operational, and the other one Stationary. In case of Operational, the engineer inside will also feel 25% of the damage done to the Weapon. Each Siege Weapon have a Hp of its own, and can be destroy, and have a time duration of about (3 mines?) Bombardment can hurt friendly too. Also Siege Weapon will be small, personal size. So a war tank would look somewhat like a push wagon with shields/armor decoration (like a big iron rhino head in front) that can be operated by one man. Animation wise, will see the Engineer spilling bunch of parts on the ground first (depend on what he is buidling) with a blue print-like aura below. The parts will magically come together to form what ever. (like the fixing the Catapult in mission 2) They will crumble apart when time duration is up (since they are held together by magical means). And where would those parts come from? from the G zone, the same place where Ranger hide their arrows and Warrior their weapon when changing them.

Example Skills:

Salvager

Wood Chopper: ( Iron Miner, Stone Cutter)
5e | 2c | 45r : You gain (1-3) Timber Material Instantly.

Scavenger:
5e | 1c | 30r : Need to target a Corpse. Gain (1-3) Materials rolls.

Gear Crafter:
5e | 2c | 45r | 0 G, 1T, 1I, 1S : Trade materials to make one Gear.

Material Searcher:
10e | 1c | 60r : In T seconds, you get a Material roll every 4 seconds.

Siege Expert

Bombardment Measurement:
5e | 1c | 5r :
Allow you to “see” the possible Bombardment Point if you were to build a Bombardment Type Siege Weapon at your current position of your facing.

Catapult:
20e | 6c | 60r | 2 G, 6T, 2I, 5S | Stationary :
You build a Catapult. You can bombard a single point for X AoE damage. Should use Bombardment Measurement first to get a more precise position. 6 second Rate of Fire.

Trebuchet:
20e | 6c | 60r | 3 G, 8T, 2I, 6S | Operational :
You build a Trebuchet. You can Bombard a single point for X (more than Catapult) AoE damage. 8 second Rate of Fire.

Ballista:
20e | 6c | 60r | 1G, 5T, 4I, 2S | Stationary :
You build a Ballista. Fire at the direction you are facing for X damage and small AoE effect. 4 seconds rage of fire.

Arbalest/Mangonel/Luncher/Giant Sling/Hurler/Cannon

War Tank:
20e | 6c | 60r | 2G, 4T, 6I, 2S | Operational :
You build and Operates an Armor Tank. Reduce your movement speed to walking. All Ally “inside” or near it gain +X attack, and reflect Y damage to any melee attacker.

Armor Tank:
20e | 6c | 60r | 1G, 6T, 3I, 3S | Operational :
You build and Operates an Armor Tank. Reduce your movement speed to walking. All Ally “inside” or near it gain +X AL and +Y AL against Piercing.

Cover Shield:
15e | 5c | 60r | 0G, 4T, 2I, 2S | Stationary :
You build a Cover Shield at your area. Any ally inside will gain +X AL against Piercing and Protect this area from any Bombardment till the Shield got Destroy. .

Wire Fence:
10e | 5c | 60r | 0G, 1T, 3I, 0S | Stationary :
You build a Wire Fence. Has a hp of 40. Anyone crossing it with out destroy it first will get Y damage and be Cripple.

Defensive Wall:
10e | 5c | 60r | 0G, 3T, 1I, 1S | Stationary :
You build a Wall. Has a hp of 100. Cannot cross it with out first destroying it.

Explosive Expert

Grenade:
5e | 2c | 5r | 0G, 2T, 0I, 1S:

Toss a Grenade that deal X fire AoE damage.
Rocket:
5e | 1c | 5r | 0G, 1T, 2I, 1S:

Shoot a Rocket that deal X fire AoE damage.
Mine:
10e | 1c | 10r | 0G, 1T, 2I, 2S:

Lay a Mine Trap. Target move over it will trigger X fire AoE damages.
Strap On Explosive:
15e | 1c | 40r | 0G, 1T, 2I, 2S:

Strap an Explosive on your Minion or Enemy. Will explore after 8 seconds, dealing X damage to all nearby. Must be apply at melee range.

Self-Explode:
15e | 1c | 40r | 1G, 0T, 0I, 0S:
Explode self, dealing X damage to self and Y damage to all around.

Fused Barrel:
10e | 1c | 20r | 0G, 2T, 2I, 2S:
Drop a Explosive Barrel that will explode after 5 seconds, dealing X damage to all near by.

Explosive Shot:
5e | 1c | 10r | 0G, 1T, 1I, 1S:
The next Bombardment Fire will do X more damage.

Musket Expert

Dual Shot:
5e | 1c | 20r : Shot twice, but have (50-25%) chance of fail and blow back in your face for Y damage.

Extra Powder Shot:
5e | 1c | 20r : Next Shot do X more damage, but have (50-25%) chance of fail and blow back in your face for Y damage.

Buck Shot:
10e | 2c | 30r : Shoot a Cone shape that can hit multiple enemies, but have (50-25%) chance of fail and blow back in your face for Y damage.

Blinding Shot:
10e | 2c | 30r : Your shot have X% chance of blind the target, but have (50-25%) chance of fail and blow back in your face for Y damage.

Drill Bullet:
10e | 2c | 30r | 0G, 0T, 3I, 0S: Next T seconds, your Bullet/Arrow have X% of armor penetration.

Scope:
10e | 2c | 30r | 0G, 2T, 1I, 0S: Next T seconds, your can shoot at further range.

Improve Powder Horn:
10e | 2c | 30r | 0G, 2T, 0I, 1S: Next T seconds, you reduce the chance of backfire by 10%.

Improve Reloader:
10e | 2c | 30r | 0G, 1T, 1I, 1S: Next T seconds, you reduce the reloading time after each shot.

Gadget Expert

Sorta Brain dead when wrote to this point, and since Uncertain about how A.net is going to treat technology, so unsure of what technology level will appear. But here are some possible lines of skills that can appear in it. (might even take this attribute out entirely if necessary)
Build Robot Buddy/Minons?
Traps
Armor and Weapon Improvement Tools
Shockers and Stunt Gun
Various Devices
Siege Weapon/Robot Fixer

Balance:
Siege Weapons are good to use, but also very hard to use, and require lots Materials, thus almost can be use efficiently by an Engineer primary. Of cause, if you do pull it off at building a Catapult aiming at their spawn point, than you can start hear the cussing. And Imagine a Catapult War between two or more Engineer. Explosive are dangers not only to your enemy, but to your team as well. Use with cautious. Musket can help provide a more solid regular attack if needed, or if you just like the loud boom shots. Warriors/Eng might enjoy some big boom with explosives. An Ranger can actually improve their bow attack too with help from Musket and Gadget skills. A caster might gain less direct benefits, but some of the defensive skills Engineer can offer are sure to be help, especially with the lower energy cost of many of those skills.



Concept Class

Dude. you have WAY too much time on your hands!

Sounds a bit too much like another game...sorry.

But I rate the following line 5 stars: (1Low...5High)

first off,guild wars,if u havent noticed,dont use *muskets* or guns,because obviously,a gun in a rpg would instantly kill,common sense,and second,ur skills,are litterally all of the classes,and obviously everyone would drop theri classes(except monk or a mesmer)and switch to engineer,aoe,tanking,building minions,and range attacks,atleast be smart and make it master one,not all

And a big Meteor showering down constantly on your head wouldn't "instantly kill you"?

a.k.a: The spell, "Meteor Shower"...*sigh*

Yes.. I forget to better label it as "Fantasy Musket". Kids, don't play with guns.

Also you can sub Cross bow for it.

Nice class jack, you always seem to come up with good ones. Now onto suggestions

For you people saying that muskets wouldn't be realistic, i ask you why not? It doesnt seem so far fetched that they could have gun powder now does it? And to the fellow saying that a bullet would kill in one hit, well you would think that getting struck by lighting or getting set on fire for x amount of seconds would kill you too. What i believe to be a little unrealistic though, is the rocket launcher. Its plausible, as proved by the myth busters, but not probable. Another thing i have a problem with is the "wood chopper" skill. It seems to me that someone could walk out of a town and just spam that skill to gain alot of wood for pvp.

And to address the issue brought up by Tronny07, about how this class is a bit over powered, I have to agree. I think the gadgetry would be cool, but in the hopes op balancing, i would have to suggest dropping it. The other atributes are too cool to drop. I think in the expansion the necro will have an increased arsenal of minions, so i think it would be ok to leave this out.

Overall i give it a 9.5 out of 10.

actionjack is this all you do all day or what?

either it comes naturally or you have to work at it wich would need alot of free time.

it's good i have to say i like the Alchemist better though.

I personally like this idea better than alchemist, but if you combined them, i think you could have a very nice class, it will be pretty original since its not ONLY alchemist or ONLY engineer

Hell no!

I hate people trying to "bring the future" into a game that's all about knights and magician etc. There was alot of time between the time of bows and the time of guns, and they were never used as equals.

woot.. breakt 100 viewing.. good enough and can let it rest now...

To adress some issues:
About guns and Muskets. I would by pass the arguement, and already said can be sub with a Cross bow. So don't be too blinded by just that one thing. How "technological" advance GW world is would be a decision made not by me, but the devs. (but I still don't think guns are "from the future". If people can shoot out fireball from their hand with magic, what keep them from putting iron pallet in a pipe?)

About materials. They are only good for the map, and would reset it's number back to zero when you move to next map. Thus you cann't "stack" up your material in another map before and instanly build a Catapalt in PvP.

Gadetry. I am not certain about it, there fore I didn't put anything in there. Ideas about it are welcome.

About it being a master of all. That statment is kinda right, however, the way they can perform their skill are differnt (with the need of materials), thus they would be play differntly. Thus they cann't do anything at once, and have to concentrat more in one field. And remember, if you look at the current classes, they allow you to do multi things as well, just differntly. (a Ranger have skills that can heal, traps, tanks/dodge, pet, range, and interrupt)

Further comments are welcome (jut not the "gun" argument again)

i think it would be a Little cooler if he gets a crossbow, 75 al, grenades... FUN!

This isn't WoW, man.

So perhaps you would like to play a Al/En?

yeah so lets just take a medival based game and throw in a musket. that totally makes sense. king arthur had a shotgun, didnt you know? imo, a terrible idea.

it's amazing how the focus goes to the one thing that wasn't even a full idea you know actionjack did say it can be replaced for a crossbow or did you freaking idiots stop reading as soon as you seen musket

and while your bitching about realism you might want to take out. lets see the warriors ablitiy to do shouts most of the ranger skills all of the monk skills and all the rest of the casters for that matter. let alone the monsters well you might as well just cut out the hole dam game cause it's no where close to realistic.

heres a realistic idea you die once and you have to start all over again with a hole new char sure that sounds fun to me.

a tiny little ball from an ancient musket wouldnt kill any1 in 1 hit anyway, but still, there is probably little chance that this kind of character would be introduced
did any1 consider giving a crossbow to a ranger?

wow. you are a very angry person, arent you. fine. ill talk about more than the musket.
where should i start...
Seige weapons: lets see. he is just gonna wave his arms and a trebuchet is gonna drop out of the sky for him to use and decimate his enemies? that makes sense.
war tank: yeah ok. lets just summon a tank to the medival ages.
wire wall: because there is so much time to build a wall during a fight in guildwars
grenade: see war tank
rocket: see grenade
mine: see rocket
robot: need i say anything?

pretty sure i liked it when someone said "this isnt WoW"

while your talkin about making sense

how can necros raise the dead
how can a ele summon lightning or a fireball or control water or earth
how can a monk heal someone instantly
how can a ranger control a animal or spirits

most of this game makes little to no sense if you really get to thinking about it

further more this game is a freaking fantasy based game you know where dragons walk the earth and unthinkable things can happen it's not supposed to make sense so your it doesn't make sense or it's not realistic crap just pisses me off

well, if we put aside the fact that necromancers in ANY game can raise the dead, and elementalists in ANY game can congure elements, and monks in ANY game can heal like mad, and rangers in ANY game have an affinity with nature, your argument makes sense. wait a minute, that means that your argument didnt make sense.
fantasy can only go so far. conjuring a catapault out of thin air is a little too much fantasy for a game like guildwars.
and when i used the term realistic, it was intended to point toward the guildwars version of realism.

how come darkdragon99 is so passionate about it, I don't know... but try not to use any valguar words.

To almightytom, I understand your dislike to unrealistic stuff.. but it is a game we are talking about, and a game logic that should be applied. Take an RTS for example, did you ever see the peons build up a building from ground up with imaginary storage of material, and said to your self "this is impossible, I will never touch this game again!". If so, than you made your point.

There are already Engineer in GW, the one who man the catapults in mission 2 (I forgot the name), which the capapultes magically fix it self, and fire shots automatic shots that require no loading. So I guess if you can shoot fireballs, you could also build things magically as well. A war tank is not the modern day tank with a cannon on top, but it does sound better than a War Wagon. And yes, there are 5 seconds of casting/building time to make a wire wall.

I, however, agree it is very similar to WoW's Gadeteer. Feel free to comment in what would be added or change to make it more differnt and better.

i see what you are saying, it just seems like the engineer would be a little TOO advanced. if you were to just make a class that used crossbow and maybe some form of primitive explosive, and then add broken catapaults to different maps that only the engineer could fix, then i suppose it could work. the thought of just summoning a catapault or building a robot just seems a little crazy.

i'm just in the mood to fight tonight and to tell the truth i'm passionate about everything i do

and i did try

so almightytom it makes sense just cause you've seen it befor is that right well than think of this if you didn't see it befor would it still make sense

geez. assassin is not original enough and engineer is too original. there's no pleasing you people is there? i think this is another good (albeit, not as fantabulous as the alchemist) idea from actionjack. he's got a lot of creative talent.

/signed

also, you might want to replace the word "robot" with something more like "automaton"

any chance you could explain that? cuz it didnt make any sense and you missed a couple e's.

Please. I hate it when people just start shouting at every single idea. If you'd been here longer you might know that when people make such huge ideas as this, it is regarded as polite not to just start pointing at every single thing like

[sarcasm] gun - yeah let's throw in some guns to games with staffs and wands and swords
war tank - no, tanks didn't exist then.
grenade - no
rocket - no
wire wall - how can you build wall in middle of battle [/sarcasm]

This is probably the common view of a person in Guild Wars that things like guns can't be put in.

I think by tanks and rockets and stuff actionjack was really unsure and probably meant they would be little small models rather than huge great things built in the middle of battle.
Yes, maybe the idea has it's flaws, but please don't start that 'guns, don't make me laugh' mode.

he may have meant little small models, but its kinda hard to have a little small model of a catapault or any of those other things and still have it work. i dont particularly care if im being polite or not, im just giving my opinion on what i think is a bad idea. i even suggested a way in which the build could be made to work. i quote myself to prove a point:

For the Siege weapons.. they will be man sizes.
Animation wise, will be similar to that of a RTS game (guy hammering something while its "parts" magically float together) Yes, it is not realistic, but still within reason of a game.


Muzzleloading Musket

M107 Long Range Sniper Rifle (LRSR)

can you guess which type of gun am I thinking of?

I have it!

Construction (class only): Able to make terrain changes to map, adding walls, ramps, pits, ect. The more construction skill you have the more successful you are at defusing traps, and your explosives have a lesser chance of being deactivated or spoted.

Explosives: Able to destroy constructed obsticle and set trap-like explosives that do not expire untill triggered or deactivated.

Defusion: Able to defuse explosives and set off traps from range.

Musketeering: Able to use single handed, or rifle firearms. These weapons have low accuracy but a high damage rate.

Woo!

ok read your post again than read mine


your hole argument on that was you see that in every game so if you didn't see it in every game would it still make sense everything had to be used a first time you know

ur thinking of the M107 right? =D

I don't know what the big deal is here. Dwarven powder kegs = large grenades. You just shrink it down and you've got yourself a grenade. Now i agree the rocket launcher is probably out, but about the land mine, its basically a trap, i don't see what's so unreasonable about it.

To adress the wartank, I think it would be just fine to be able to build things like this. Now like jack said, this isnt a modern day tank, it would probably look like this.
http://www.ifelix.co.uk/games/images/img011/f10015.jpg<---- I googled war machine.
Now, with some very high requirements, such as materials and casting time, I think this would be achievable.

And finnally, why can't there be guns eh? Final Fantasy had guns. I don't know about WoW. But come on people. The dwarves are like, "Hmm, well we have tubes, and gun powder, and projectiles, well, no, it's impossible to put these three items together to make a projectile shooting thingy because it wouldn't be realistic." It is completely plausible for these people to have guns.
Give me one good reason why they couldn't have put 2 and 2 and 2 together to get guns. Huh? Huh? Thats what I thought.

War Tank... something more like this.. but with out the horses...
http://www.madponies.net/images/empire/wagon.b.jpg

Rockets.. not those sci-fi rocket lunchers
http://www.firework-displays.co.uk/I...sumorocket.jpg

Lots major fantasy games have guns, from FF to WoW to Warhammer. Of couse, you could also put a large gem on there, can said it is power by both blackpowder and magic! But of couse it is subject to each and our own opinions, so I won't force it on anyone. (as said, A.net will be the one doing that)

Hate to dump on all those totally opposed to firearms in GW but gunpowder is already in the game i.e. power keg stores in the shiverpeaks. If its done well then I think musket style weapons could be a nice alternative in fantasy RPGs and other games have done it before.

I always fancied the idea of a flintlock pistol wielding nobleman myself. With such a weapon you are going to have to nerf speed/recharge for the kind of power that would make it realistic. Limiting powder and shot could also be an option, making the character have to use an alternative weapon for periods of time and choose the best time to shoot, these kind of materials could be dropped as loot as well.

Either way, people are going to either love the idea or hate it. Having the option takes the game in a different direction and if you really cant stand the idea then just dont opt for that kind of character. At least there is a choice.

well, first, there are no dwarves in guild wars. except the ones in the shiverpeaks, and they arent playable races. dwarves in any game have the tendency to stick to themselves and hate on generally everyone. ie: they dont get along with people. now, if the dwarves made guns, why would they share them with everyone that they dont like?
^note that the above is a completely hypothetical situation, and not to be taken as the start of an argument on dwarf relations.

anyway, my only problem with the whole gun thing is that the presence of gunpowder (dwarven kegs) does not imply that they have the ability to make guns. correct me if im mistaken, but im pretty sure gunspowder, tubes, and round bits of metal were around for hundreds of years before anyone figured out to put them together and kill people.

After all, the Charr nuked Ascalon with their giant crystal missles... I don't see anything wrong with bigger and more explosive projectile weapons.

/signed I'd like to see some concept art for the engineer constumes!

I was reading on something, when I came to a interesting information about the gun/armor arguement that even I didn't know about before. So I will post it here to share with those who care..

which prompt me to look up a but futher about it in Wiki... which I got this..

Interesting isn't it?

My thoughts are I don't know what to think. The original suggestion is so random and scattered that I'm having difficulty plucking out the good ideas from the bad. I'll just start at the top of the idea (conceptually, not at the top of the original post) and work my way down.

Okay, first off, I do like the idea of an Engineering class in the game. Like has been said previously, there are already Engineer-type NPCs (Fort Ranik's NPC, for example, whose name I also can't remember), and the dwarves damn near function as them, too. Because of the Engineers already in the game, I don't see anything wrong with having an actual Engineering profession in the game. I'm a nerd, so it'll probably give me something nerdy to do.

That said, the profession needs to be implemented correctly...and largely, I don't think the OP's suggestion in its current form, with its current ideas, is able to lay the framework for the professin to be implemented appropriately.

I think there are some ideas (rather, skills) that are brilliant.

The Explosive Expert tree, for example, has a lot of nice things going on.

I like the idea of grenades, although I don't think a grenade itself is appropriate, even within the hyperreality of GW...perhaps a different type of projectile explosive?

I think the explosive packs could be very useful. I like the idea of an Engineer running up and strapping a bomb on an opponent, or himself. Reminds me of Goblin Sappers from Warcraft, which isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Mines, while I think the name and modern connotations of the name aren't appropriate, are something that could be useful, as well. They could function like Ranger Traps would, but instead of causing Bleeding and Crippled, they would offer beefed up types of Flame Trap. Incidentally, I think ideas like Wire Fence are pretty lame, because if we're looking at the Engineer doing explosive things, barbed wire, in my opinion, is the complete antithesis of the goal.

Speaking of the wire fence thing, I find most of the Siege Expert...thing...to be completely absurd, because how would the thing function? Ignoring how bizarre and silly things would become if War Tanks just started appearing around people, I don't think the game itself could handle all of the objects popping up.

And from what I gather, the War Tank idea isn't just a non-visual effect. There would be an actual tank appear that the Engineer hops into and drives. How would the Engie get in and out? Is it just he's in while the thing is intact, and when it gets blown up, what happens? Does he just hop out at the last second, or does he become part of the rubble?

Either way, how could the game handle something like that?

Just consider an 8-player team, all using Engies, all using War Tanks. Hell, consider 8v8 in GvG (and forget using it in Tombs...8v8v8v8? Not a chance) and tell me anything in the Siege Expert tree is still doable.

And to touch back on the "riding" aspect...are we going to have to "mount" these War Tanks? They're going to be vehicles. I for one don't think we need vehicles of any type, honestly.

About the muskets. I'm really on the fence about this one. On one hand, I think it will be difficult to do muskets in such a way that doesn't skew the game to all hell, but at the same time, I don't think many of the counter-arguments regarding "game realism/immersion" are terribly cogent.

I suppose my main concern is just that the idea of a musket in GW makes no sense. I could not see an Engineer dealing damage side-by-side with a Ranger, hearing the thwwiiipppp! of the arrow, and then hearing a gunshot. It just doesn't gel. I have no problem with an Engie dealing damage with a ranged attack.

It's just that a musket--even archaic ones a la Arthurian history or Revolutionary war ones--will be a stretch to mesh with the existing GW environment. The Ranger and Engie standing next to each other, you see an arrow fly, then a huge cloud of smoke. I don't see how it would add much to the game, just like I don't see how a crossbow would make anything any better.

Replacing the musket with a crossbow doesn't make the Engie profession any more appealing; it just makes me long more for the true Marksman profession (Ranger) to have a one-handed, ranged weapon...like a crossbow.

And I think the fact that people really have to stretch to come up with "viable" alternatives to the initial weapon choice for Engie really says something about how well the class would mesh with the rest of GW: it really wouldn't.

So far, the only thing I really like about the Engie idea is the Demolitions/Explosives Expert. That's the only thing I see truly shining when it comes to gameplay.

Everything else is either useless or incidental in importance: Materials...no. Siege expert...no. Musket (or crossbow)...either needs serious re-consideration and revision or no. Gadget expert...not feeling that, either.

I don't even think that "Salvager" is a good idea for the primary attribute, too. You're an Engie because you like to blow **** up. That was the sole purpose for creating the Dwarven Demo squads and Goblin Sappers in Warcraft: the player wanted to blow something up. Hell, if my memory serves me correctly, the sound bytes of those two units were things like "Bombs are great!" "I love blowin things up!" "HAHAAHAHHAHA!!!"

Better primary attribute for Engie: Dexterity. With each level of Dexterity, the effectiveness, power, and speed with which you can set Bombs (and whatever the other two/three attribute lines would be) increase.

The other primary attributes pretty much boost what the primary profession focuses on. Monk and Divine Favor. Warrior and Strength. Ele and Energy Storage (because Ele spells are the only high energy spells in the game). Ranger and Expertise. And so on. Why should Engie be any different? Dexterity makes much more sense. Plus, the Engie is working with bombs. I think his hands should be as steady as possible.

I re-read the thread again, and I think Sagius' Defusion skill line is a solid idea. Since it wouldn't necessarily be affected by Dexterity, I think it would be worth the secondary profession. After all, since Mesmers are the only real counter to other Mesmers, and Necros are the only real counter to other Necros, I think it's appropriate that an Engie would be the only counter to an Engie.

You're in combat, an opposing Engie runs up and straps a bomb to your chest, you click the icon in the Effects Monitor, an Engie on your side runs up and defuses it. Sounds like fun, and wouldn't require dramatic changes for the existing professions.

So my final assessment boils down to the following:

Engineer profession: OK, but only with careful design
Engineer attributes: Dexterity (class only), Demolitions, Defusion, [and one or two others]
Materials gathering: NO
Siege activites: NO

Thx for the very nice review.. lot better than some mindless flames...

now.. to adress your concern.
- on Explosion.. I really want to make it where it will have AoE effect that would also harm you or your teamate if they are in its range.... However, that would create to much team kill abuser.. so might need to just make it where it would hurt your self only. And don't let the name fool you, they are not modern day weaponary.

- on sige weaponaries... well.. those do need some blance. In theory, they are Engineer's "Nitch", in where they would build up heavy (and for most part, stationary or slow moving) defense and offense, of couse, material, or time, is thier weakness in that field. I see the animation being somewhat like a RTS, where a enginer would "hammer" while the pile of material/parts magically form it self into what ever they are building. (look almost more like summoning). When the weapon is destory by enemy, it would blow up, and knock back the engineer to the ground for few seconds. Or if it is duration, would simply crumble apart (it is held together by magical means, afterall). Well, if you face a Engineer team, you better A) bring your own Engineer, B) Rush them head on fast and hard c) run for cover till their duration is over.

- On Musket... read my post above for support on musket in historical time fame. Musket is differnt from Bows. (I should add one more thing to it... it does not have height bonus, but will only do 50% damage if target is out of its optimal distance) Musket/hand cannon should have slower firing rate, better damage, and shorter range. In skill, it is more chance base (to reflect its in accuracy) than rangers bow skills.


I guess you like a Bombardeer better... things that go KaBooom?
Also would like to hear your view on the concept of Materials, since its a very big part of Engineer concept. Any suggestion to further improve it is welcome