Build Review #4
THX
The latest Build Review can be found here.
Feel free to discuss.
Feel free to discuss.
Sausaletus Rex
Ah, thanks, THX.
Yes, this time around it was cce's Monk/Mesmer build from this thread. It's a build based around using signets - six of them, in fact - and, of course, a Monk/Mesmer pairing is a very good combination for such an effort because both skill lists have some pretty good options as far as signets - those often neglected skills which cost not a drop of energy to cast and are unaffected by most magical counters - are concerned. Especially the Mesmer skill list which offers some intriguing optoins as far as signets go such as...well, you'll have to read the review for that. But definintely a pretty fine build to start off with and one that features some interesting conceptual twists including a extremely interesting way of looking at energy management.
Anyhow, as always, if you've got a build you'd like reviewed feel free to post it in the original build review thread here and we'll devote this thread to discussion of the latest article.
Yes, this time around it was cce's Monk/Mesmer build from this thread. It's a build based around using signets - six of them, in fact - and, of course, a Monk/Mesmer pairing is a very good combination for such an effort because both skill lists have some pretty good options as far as signets - those often neglected skills which cost not a drop of energy to cast and are unaffected by most magical counters - are concerned. Especially the Mesmer skill list which offers some intriguing optoins as far as signets go such as...well, you'll have to read the review for that. But definintely a pretty fine build to start off with and one that features some interesting conceptual twists including a extremely interesting way of looking at energy management.
Anyhow, as always, if you've got a build you'd like reviewed feel free to post it in the original build review thread here and we'll devote this thread to discussion of the latest article.
MindBullets
I just wanted to take a moment and thank Rex personally for the hard work he does on this site.
His builds and critiques are insightful.
I found your latest build review of CCE's signet character especially helpful because I wasn't aware of what it took to maintain enchantments.
Thanks again,
Everyone on this site has been the most helpful and informative of any I've seen.
No wonder Guild Wars main website has you listed as their...
"Recommended Site"
Mind
His builds and critiques are insightful.
I found your latest build review of CCE's signet character especially helpful because I wasn't aware of what it took to maintain enchantments.
Thanks again,
Everyone on this site has been the most helpful and informative of any I've seen.
No wonder Guild Wars main website has you listed as their...
"Recommended Site"
Mind
Rellok
I will second your personal thanks.
This is by far my favorite site to waste, I mean spend, time at.
Great work everyone.
Matt
This is by far my favorite site to waste, I mean spend, time at.
Great work everyone.
Matt
Duality
hmm...on the last build on number 4, it says smiting, but your skills say protection. that a typo or is it on purpose?
Sausaletus Rex
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duality
hmm...on the last build on number 4, it says smiting, but your skills say protection. that a typo or is it on purpose?
Painovirhepaholainon. Fixed now.
Duality
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sausaletus Rex
Painovirhepaholainon. Fixed now.
*pats SR's head*
there there. can't help it that i have proofreading in my genes. =)
*pats SR's head*
there there. can't help it that i have proofreading in my genes. =)
ratatass
Delightful reading as always. Thank you so much for your hard work and contribution. I actually saved reading this article until I got home - had dinner and relaxed a little. Definitely the highlight of the day, to sit down and enjoy your ideas and writing style. As always I end up with an idea or two to improve my builds.
I am not contributing much by answering to this thread, but I just wanted to share my appreciation of your efforts.
Ratatass
I am not contributing much by answering to this thread, but I just wanted to share my appreciation of your efforts.
Ratatass
Sausaletus Rex
Blatant stroking of my ego is never off-topic. And always welcomed.
Well, not really, this site is a place for serious discussion not a place to establish the Cult of Rex (that comes later...much later...) and I don't wnat to see just pages and pages of praises in my honor but posting to say "Hey, nice article." is definitely not out of place. Postitive feedback is important. It's best when you can explain why you like things, when you tell me what's working and what's not, so that I can work on making he next one better but I'm not so proud as to turn aside every "nice work."
Better than posting to point out errors all the damned people who proof-read or should have proo-read things should have caught, anyway. Grumble grumble...
Well, not really, this site is a place for serious discussion not a place to establish the Cult of Rex (that comes later...much later...) and I don't wnat to see just pages and pages of praises in my honor but posting to say "Hey, nice article." is definitely not out of place. Postitive feedback is important. It's best when you can explain why you like things, when you tell me what's working and what's not, so that I can work on making he next one better but I'm not so proud as to turn aside every "nice work."
Better than posting to point out errors all the damned people who proof-read or should have proo-read things should have caught, anyway. Grumble grumble...
Duality
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sausaletus Rex
Better than posting to point out errors all the damned people who proof-read or should have proo-read things should have caught, anyway. Grumble grumble...
*pppbbbt* at least i didn't point out that you spelled anything wrong.
*pppbbbt* at least i didn't point out that you spelled anything wrong.
Sausaletus Rex
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duality
*pppbbbt* at least i didn't point out that you spelled anything wrong.
Me spell things worng? That's unpossible!
No, seriously, I appreciate it. I'm certainly not perfect and am as prone to mistake as the next person. And, given the rate of text I output errors are bound to creep in somewhere. That's why I try and have people proof-read things but even then stuff slips through the cracks. So, I like to know about errors so that I can fix them and I'm certainly not offended by the revelation that I sometimes mess up - trust me, I've learned that a looooong time ago - but just don't expect me to be happy about making stupid mistakes I should have caught on my own. Jerk. :P
No, seriously, I appreciate it. I'm certainly not perfect and am as prone to mistake as the next person. And, given the rate of text I output errors are bound to creep in somewhere. That's why I try and have people proof-read things but even then stuff slips through the cracks. So, I like to know about errors so that I can fix them and I'm certainly not offended by the revelation that I sometimes mess up - trust me, I've learned that a looooong time ago - but just don't expect me to be happy about making stupid mistakes I should have caught on my own. Jerk. :P
Duality
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sausaletus Rex
Me spell things worng? That's unpossible!
No, seriously, I appreciate it. I'm certainly not perfect and am as prone to mistake as the next person. And, given the rate of text I output errors are bound to creep in somewhere. That's why I try and have people proof-read things but even then stuff slips through the cracks. So, I like to know about errors so that I can fix them and I'm certainly not offended by the revelation that I sometimes mess up - trust me, I've learned that a looooong time ago - but just don't expect me to be happy about making stupid mistakes I should have caught on my own. Jerk. :P
heh, k. i know all about stupid mistakes, but then, i'm dysgraphic. probably why i'm able to notice things wrong so well, because i have to proofread myself like mad. my input works fine, it's just my output that gets fubared.
No, seriously, I appreciate it. I'm certainly not perfect and am as prone to mistake as the next person. And, given the rate of text I output errors are bound to creep in somewhere. That's why I try and have people proof-read things but even then stuff slips through the cracks. So, I like to know about errors so that I can fix them and I'm certainly not offended by the revelation that I sometimes mess up - trust me, I've learned that a looooong time ago - but just don't expect me to be happy about making stupid mistakes I should have caught on my own. Jerk. :P
heh, k. i know all about stupid mistakes, but then, i'm dysgraphic. probably why i'm able to notice things wrong so well, because i have to proofread myself like mad. my input works fine, it's just my output that gets fubared.
Tuon
ok i read it and liked the last two builds. Almost done running through them with a fine comb, but so far they've passed.
The first one though... what's the use of bane signet at 4 attribute pts? I understand SoM and signet of humility, but it's gonna be a bit hard switching back and forth betweeen enemies and allies. The build in general seems kinda not very cohesive.
About the last two, i'm not sure it's really worth it using up 2 skills (one of them your elite!) just to reduce signet casting time. Having spent weeks (seriously lol) trying to make a good build with mantra of inscriptions, i'm beginning to realize that might be the only way to do it.
The first one though... what's the use of bane signet at 4 attribute pts? I understand SoM and signet of humility, but it's gonna be a bit hard switching back and forth betweeen enemies and allies. The build in general seems kinda not very cohesive.
About the last two, i'm not sure it's really worth it using up 2 skills (one of them your elite!) just to reduce signet casting time. Having spent weeks (seriously lol) trying to make a good build with mantra of inscriptions, i'm beginning to realize that might be the only way to do it.
Sausaletus Rex
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuon
And, yes, the build wasn't very cohesive. An example of something done form the concept on down - where the point was just packing it with no energy signets to keep the enchantments running. Banesig fits the concept until you look at what it actually does. Which is, by and large, why I dropped it in my revised builds.
Quote: Originally Posted by Tuon
About the last two, i'm not sure it's really worth it using up 2 skills (one of them your elite!) just to reduce signet casting time.
If there were only one or two signets, sure. But everything those builds does is centered around the quick and efficient use of signets.
Reducing casting times can be huge. As huge, if not moreso than energy management. What are the three important details when considering a skill? Energy, effect, and time. Energy is what you need to cast it, the resource - A skill's meaningless if you can't afford to cast it, after all. Effect is what a skill actually does - it could be low cost and low recharge but you still wouldn't want it if it did something crummy. Witness Wastrel's Worry. And time is just how often you can do whatever it is that skill does and how rapidly - A spell that does a little damage with a low cooldown can be better than a spell with medium damage and a long recharge timer. You won't see any heals with a long casting time, after all, because no one would use them. Improve any one of those factors and you'll improve your skill.
With signets energy isn't an issue so you're left either boosting their effect or managing the time it takes to use or recharge them.
That 45% reduction to the recharge time of Leech Signet from Mantra of Inscriptions alone means that it turns from soemthing nearly unuseable to a zero energy, interrupting version of Energy Tap. Blessed Signet can really crank out the energy . And so on. The best part is that MoI and Keystone Signet synergize because MoI shortens the amount of time needed to cast Keystone and Keystone lets you use Blessed Signet more to have the energy to keep MoI running constantly. Now, with the change to Blessed Signet it's probably overkill because you'll spend all your time casting Keystone and Blessed and owon't be able to do much of anything else.
It's a good point about the elite, though. I had another version of a Smiting build on my drawing board, one that actually made use of Bane Signet. It was a bit different and not much of a healer so I was hesitant. But I'm really kicking myself now because I basically had the big abuse over the last BWE and I didn't realize it. Because, of course, I would have dropped Midnight Signet for Signet of Judgment. There, of course, time management becomes even more important as the more you can fire off that AoE knockdown the better, which, of course, led me to try and figure out a way to drop as much off that recharge time on SoJ and Banesig as I could. Zrave just had the brilliant idea of putting htat Quickening Zephyr on another character.
In fact, here's what I had in my notes :
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuon
SoJ with QZ, ... now that's a good idea. Problem with it is that it's a team build & that generally means if the ranger goes down, your entire team takes a big hit. That's why I prefer self sufficient builds.
Self-sufficiency is all well and good. But GW is, in the end, a team game. If you can't rely on someone else for something then you're not playing on the right team. No character can be completely self-sufficient so it's a matter of where and how much trust you have.Reducing casting times can be huge. As huge, if not moreso than energy management. What are the three important details when considering a skill? Energy, effect, and time. Energy is what you need to cast it, the resource - A skill's meaningless if you can't afford to cast it, after all. Effect is what a skill actually does - it could be low cost and low recharge but you still wouldn't want it if it did something crummy. Witness Wastrel's Worry. And time is just how often you can do whatever it is that skill does and how rapidly - A spell that does a little damage with a low cooldown can be better than a spell with medium damage and a long recharge timer. You won't see any heals with a long casting time, after all, because no one would use them. Improve any one of those factors and you'll improve your skill.
With signets energy isn't an issue so you're left either boosting their effect or managing the time it takes to use or recharge them.
That 45% reduction to the recharge time of Leech Signet from Mantra of Inscriptions alone means that it turns from soemthing nearly unuseable to a zero energy, interrupting version of Energy Tap. Blessed Signet can really crank out the energy . And so on. The best part is that MoI and Keystone Signet synergize because MoI shortens the amount of time needed to cast Keystone and Keystone lets you use Blessed Signet more to have the energy to keep MoI running constantly. Now, with the change to Blessed Signet it's probably overkill because you'll spend all your time casting Keystone and Blessed and owon't be able to do much of anything else.
It's a good point about the elite, though. I had another version of a Smiting build on my drawing board, one that actually made use of Bane Signet. It was a bit different and not much of a healer so I was hesitant. But I'm really kicking myself now because I basically had the big abuse over the last BWE and I didn't realize it. Because, of course, I would have dropped Midnight Signet for Signet of Judgment. There, of course, time management becomes even more important as the more you can fire off that AoE knockdown the better, which, of course, led me to try and figure out a way to drop as much off that recharge time on SoJ and Banesig as I could. Zrave just had the brilliant idea of putting htat Quickening Zephyr on another character.
In fact, here's what I had in my notes :
Quote:
Well, Keystone wouldn't recharge MoS. The idea would have been to use MoS, use SoJ, use MoI, then use SoJ again, use Bane, use Keystone, use SoJ again, then Bane again. After that it's a matter of what recharges when but it's a good opening salvo at the very least. Not a lot of damage but they won't be doing much of anything. Obviously, I never got much past the "wouldn't it be neat if..." stage of planning on that one. But spammable knockdown = happy time.
Blessed Smiter? DF Smite Ins Signet of Judgement {E} Bane Signet Signet of Devotion Blessed Signet Mantra of Inscriptions Mantra of Signets -enchantment? -(necklace Oath Shot/Quickening Zephyr or something?) -Crank out the kd and damage. Cooldown control critical certainly. Lower you can push it the better SoJ is. -MoS - like MoI a good way of controlling sigs in Ins. -Necklace skills. Too much to get into? Getting phased out anyway? -Whoops, a Ranger skill would be elite. No SoJ then. Frowntown. Arcane Echo can't handle sig, either. Echo could but elite. -Lose Devosig? Could work in some Dom for Wearysig. -Smiting maintains are bleh. Need one or two, though. So, you can see I was planning on devoting not just two but three or four slots to shortening the cooldown in order to chaingun Banesig and SoJ. But, no, I couldn't make it work so Zrave gets all the glory... Tuon
Why not stack mantra of signets on keystone? Kinda like toggle back and forth between the two mantras? =p
SoJ with QZ, ... now that's a good idea. Problem with it is that it's a team build & that generally means if the ranger goes down, your entire team takes a big hit. That's why I prefer self sufficient builds. I can definately see a whole team using SoJ to great effect, like that. As for the build fitting the concept, That should only go so far imo. No use making a crappy char just because he fits the concept. As of now, I don't believe any of the builds are good enough at what they do whether it's enchantment upkeep, healing or protection Sausaletus Rex
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuon
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Zrave's build - basically six Mes/Mon or Mon/Mes and two Rangers for ritual abuse - had redundancy. If one Ranger or that one Spirit went down, no big deal, the rest could compensate. And it did use SoJ to great effect. With QZ and MoI (order's important here) you got the recharge on SoJ down to about 1 second. It wasn't the quickest build or the most damaging and not entirely bullet-proof but it would be sheer hell to play again. And, by all accounts, it was.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuon
As for the build fitting the concept, That should only go so far imo. No use making a crappy char just because he fits the concept. As of now, I don't believe any of the builds are good enough at what they do whether it's enchantment upkeep, healing or protection
At the same time you don't want to stray too far from the intention of the original builder when suggesting improvements. You're not gong to get them to agree to "This sucks, get something brand new". The builds within the review might not be perfect but no build is. What they're good at is having a lot of energy to do what they want to do and a radically different set of counters from the normal Monk build. To do so they lost a lot of efficiency and raw power. But they make up for it in stability. Simply put, they don't fall as prety to that Mesmer as a more traditional Monk. Are there better ways of going about it? Probably, but that was cce's way and that's what I ran with.
Of course, a lot of skills in those builds have changed since it was written. Enough so that it's probably not going to be anywhere near effective running those builds now. That's what happens when the game shifts... |