The Importance of Positioning

Collision detection - that objects are solid and cannot be passed through - brings up a lot of interesting tactical possibilities in Guild Wars. Here's one of them.

An important fact about shields that's often overlooked is that they only work from the front. There's a distinct arc where the shield's defensive bonus is added to your armor. No one's quite sure what it is but it's generally agreed to be in the front and not in the back (It's still in doubt just how much of the sides are covered, that's all).

This is the space around your character (X), blows come from all around them in a circle:

+++
+X+
+++

Let's say your character is facing towards the top of your window, the space covered by a shield (=) would be those in front of them:

===
+X+
+++

If they were to turn around it would look like this:

+++
+X+
===

Or this:

=++
=X+
=++

Now, another little known fact is that when a character is running any hit delivered to them will be a critical hit. When being beaten on by a Warrior or a Ranger often the worst move you can make is to turn and run to get away from them. You're just opening yourself up to a lot of pain. Sidestepping (using the Q and E default keys on the WASD movement set-up), however, doesn't incur any critical hits although you'll prevent yourself from attacking or using any skill with a casting time.

Finally, each hit you make with any sort of attack that takes armor into account has a hit location. Characters have five different locations - Head, Chest, Arms, Legs, and Feet and can wear different armors in each. The head, especially, tends to receive a different level of protection because that's where +attribute headgear goes and that's generally a bit worse than the high-end armor choices. Normally, your chance to land a hit on any of these areas is equally distributed amongs these areas in the following manner:

Head: 12.5%
Chest: 37.5%
Arms: 12.5%
Legs: 25%
Feet: 12.5%

So normally you're three times as likely to hit someone in the chest as you are in the head. And twice as likely to strike their legs. Everywhere else has a 1 in 8 chance. Certain skills change these percentages, though, for example Fire Storm strikes mostly at the head. The reason they do this is because of the direction the blows are travelling in. Fire Storm comes from above so it's more likely to strike the head. If you stand above your target and deliver blows you'll be more likely to strike the head, too. Below and you'll hit their feet more often than not. Changing the position of your character in relation to your opponent can change that percentage table and allow you to land more effective blows against a weaker part of their armor.

Putting it all together we can see that positioning your attacker in relation to a target can be of great value to your damage output. Experienced players will be working to find the most advantageous position in which to attack a target. For example, as a Warrior, I've learned to sidestep in a circle around my opponent to get behind their shield. This also leads to more critical hits if they decide to run as well as, it seems, a better hit table against their armor.

Here's how it looks with my Warrior as an (0) and I'll press, say, E and A at the same time to sidestep and pivot. My opponent blocks my path and I slide alongside them.

===
+X+
+0+

As my target turns, I work to swivel around them like so (In an obviously simplified diagram):

=++
=X+
=+0

+++
=X0
==+

++0
+X+
===

+0+
+X+
===

This can also be used by ranged attackers although they'll obvious have a much larger radius to traverse. It costs me a swing or two to do so, but by seeking the best position all my swings are better even against someone without a shield and, at the same time, when my opponent moves they can cast or attack either.

Now, if they know to quick turn (The default is X), this can take a bit longer and even be thwarted entirely. That's why, in a team, I like to have at least two attackers working together. Each tries to stay to one side of the target so even if they keep turning around someone will be attacking their back. Like so:

=0=
+X+
+0+

This also makes it much harder for them to get away from the attackers because they'll have to sidestep themselves or turn to the side quickly and then make a run for it, give each attacker a free shot as they do so.

And, of course, from there we get into things like pathing and body blocking and other fun tricks you can do to gain an advantage, but the simple, easy lesson here is this: Sometimes you don't want to just press space and hack away. Careful positioning and awareness of yourself in relation to your target and your environment can give you a much bigger edge than making another attack. Your character can move and slide around the battlefield. Use that tool and make the most of it.

Great info Rex... this is really useful...

So better find myself some higher position as a ranger so i can hit that head more often

What an excellent post. I found that most beneficial! Keep up the good work.

nice work, is this and your other couple posts like the "how to make money" going to make it into the guide section?

I would be interested to know if anyone has sucessfully use formation in a team. So far any kind of team formation quickly degenerates into "attack and follow the called target" mode as soon as the fight starts. The only exceptions are on the CTR map where a team may be split to guard the runner and defend the base, and on Koth map where everyone is clumped together on the dais.

well ive had an opposing team form a wall blocking the flag off in gvg so the runner had to go all the way around. This was in the wizards keep which has fences around the flag and two paths into it soo.. it basicly screwed us over.

Great post! Very informative, Mr. Rex!


I can do it.

I once saw a team make a solid line protecting their GH and Priest in the Tombs. We just kinda were screwed becasuse we didn't have enough ranged power to kill 2 monks. So yeah, I've seen it, but never like a battle formation, although it could be interesting to try employing one.

Battle formations would pretty hard/impractical to pull off because of our good friend, AoE.

I would demand that this be stickied except I would rather you remove the post entirely. It has enlightened my knowledge to such a level that I would prefer that it NOT be common knowledge.

Considering that I find the targeting system in GW somewhat difficult as well as getting a good angle on a target this is one of those rare time in GW where dexterous fingers will come in handy.

Oh to be in a guild that actually strategizes this way.......

Excellent!

You have now added more complexity to my already sucking game play.
More of the quality stuff that you always bring on.

I think you should post this as one of the guides on the site.

I always try facing my opponent with the shield, but was not aware of using the sidestep keys!

Thank you again Rex!

"Formations" are probably a bit too rigid and inflexible for a squad-based situation like most battles in Guild Wars are. What's important though is tactics. Coordination, the movements of your team as a whole, are what should be the focus. You need to get your attackers on a target as quickly as possible, screen targets from reaching your backlines, or swap targets quickly and efficiently to bring them down, and a lot more. That sort of movment and positioning is going to go a long way to making a team successful to the point where it can make-up for bad strategy and poor skills and other flaws in your team.

Not to say that formations aren't a good thing, just that a large degree of success in GW is attained by being flexible. It's not as important to *be* in the right place as it is to know when to *move* to the right place. But formations can be used to good effect. For example, in PvE play, your healers can be kept inside a "wall" of other characters to protect them, or they can tail the group staying just in healing range and that means they'll be much less likely to be hurt so they can keep your group afloat.

That said, teams have fused collision detection to good effect, such as trapping an enemy playing inside a Warrior train or body blocking a relic runner to trap them along the rails, as it were, so they can't advance - same thing with the Hall and blocking the stairs so a team can't bring their Hero down, and on and on.

Well, I hadn't intended it as a guide or anything of the sort. It was just a fragment I had lying around that I decided just wasn't going to make the cut as an article. I understand that it might be pretty interesting and advanced to a lot of people but for me this is basic stuff or stuff that I just can't speak authoritativly enough about to give it that "official Guru Guide" stamp - there are a lot of holes here like why positioning matters when someone doesn't have a shield or how relative positioning affects the hit table or just how much of a benefit a critical hit is and plenty of other things I'd want to fill in before I were to publish it to say nothing of editing and vetting it and all the time and effort involved. Same thing with the "money" thread and the "customizing your UI" thread and the "team builds" thread and plenty of others. It was an idea I had, maybe where I jotted down a few lines here and there or a summary but just came to realize that I don't have the time or energy to do it full justice so better to post it up as someone out there might be interested in it. I have plenty of other little scraps like "How to Manage Energy through Tactics" or "How to Make a Good Build Without Skills" or "Doing What it Takes to Win" or "Leveling" and such - just things I think people need to be aware of and aren't talking about - that I've dreamed up and haven't had time to get back to and, as release approaches I don't think I'll have any time for them soon.

But, I suppose I could, with some expansion and tweaks here and there make a guide of it. I wouldn't hodl your breath any time soon, though. I am trying to rewrite the Warrior overview guide and positioning is probably going to feature into it somehow. Again, lots to get done before I get that done, though, and there's this little game coming out I want to try out, too, so might take a little while.

Really, that this post is so relevatory and, apparently, unique is a bit depressing. These boards are not for self-congratulation, we're not a mutual admiration society here, this post is the sort of thing we made this site and these forums for. GW talk. Heady, intelligent, deep GW talk. Is it really getting so rare around here that I'm worthy of praise for bringing up such a fundamental concept as "Hey, you can move your character around guys and get a few more points of damage!"? I mean, this is background stuff and I haven't even gotten into creating chokepoints, messing with auto-pathing, abusing collision detection, or the optimal amount of people need to encircle and trap someone. Maybe once we're all playing regularly we'll have more of this kind of talk but, really, I don't see it as anything remarkable or noteworthy.

Still, placing these "Basics" in a place where they will not fall off the forum would be a great favor to everyone.
It may be a while before the glamor wears off for the rest of us. We have not been allowed to play for as long as an Alpha.

It's a lot like going to a big city for the first time. The quantity of information is overwhelming and the basics get swamped in it.

Sticky this, or something! It's more important than the basic builds for each class stickies that take up the top of the page. This is amazing, I'd heard of it before, but never in such detail.

Thanks for enlightening us.

Sticky this! I haven't gotten to play, waiting for my copy to arrive.. but I already feel like I understand at least this one key element to gameplay, and am looking forward to the possibilities it represents(Can't tell you how often I have wished Dark Age of Camelot had collision detection..)

Rex: there is a huge influx of new people now, and many come from a background without collision dectection nor even localized damage or bonus for higher ground or crit. modifiers. (perhaps apart from a special "back-stab" skill or such)

On the other hand you have waepons and skills and attibutes - something that allmost every other game has in more or less the same form. Of course most new people are going to come looking for the differences and liknesses in the areas of the game mechanics that they are familiar with and miss or overlook the significance of things like this untill they come across an explanation like this.

As for the people coming from FPS or RTS background they are sure to miss other things instead.

Just keep up the good work.

:beer:

Great info. How can you find out details about the interactions between individual types of attacks or spells and hit percentages? Thanks for the post, Rex.

I don't think formation is important so much as knowing what's going on, and taking advantage of it. For example, there are a lot of Area Effect heals in this game, like Healing Spring and Well of Blood. A good team player will let his party know what he's doing, and good teammates will take advantage of the heal. It's all just about awareness.

Great info. Thanks muchly!

When I said formation I did not mean it like a rigid formation on an RTS or turn-based tactical game. Formation in GW would need to be loose and fluid, if there is any at all. We already know that most of the time warriors need stay in front, casters in the middle, and monks in the rear of the group. I was simply wondering if there is a value to expand this into a formation in GW, but I guess there probably is not.

Another advice to remember if you are playing as a warrior: always be aware of your team position, especially the monks who have to heal you. Basically you need to make sure that you are always in the healing range of your monks (unless your team strategy dictates otherwise). A lot of times a warrior can run too far ahead (to chase an enemy monk for example) and accidentally pulled his healers to the front, exposing them to unnecessary dangers. It can also aggravate your monks if they have to run forward in order to be able to heal you because the time they spend running is the time they spend not healing).

As formations go, I find the fighter wedge (center, right wing, left wing) seems to be easy to use and tends to help the lead when wondering where his mates are.

If you have a wedge breaker trying to get through you can have one of the wings peal off and hamsting and back attack him. It's also useful in blocking path. You just have the center bump up to the target as the wings move to the sides forming the "triagle of death" around the vitctim.

After a few rounds with your buddies it gets real easy. Haven't tried anything more complex though.

3 - 1 - 2 - 2 formation at start is good though.

Thanks, a great resource. Have any specific info on vertical positioning as well? I've been tryng to experiment but it all seems random...

As an E/R I don't find myself in the thick of combat very often, but I have found that at times Alesia will suicidally throw herself into melee combat and if I can get myself between the enemy and her, I can block the attacks with my body and she can go back to her job of healing and ressurecting the rest of the team.

I know I hadn't figured on even basic complexity like this in GW.

Lets look at other similiar games quickly-
EQ, WoW - no collision detection/run through, AC a total numeric
no localized damage, you need line of sight, enemy mobs fire/hit thru rock

Diablo2 - collision detection but AC remains total numeric
no localized damage AFAIK, pretty simple affair

I'm getting the game this week, I'm guessing there's some of the armor breakdown as you mention in the manual, or did you derive that? Also looking forward to position/technique in a fight actually meaning something.

I'll be happy to add as I dig - I'm a bit of a game geek that likes to delve deep and chat. Had been looking for a community to get some good discussions going, hopeful here - cheers

oh, how many times my body has saved our team.

awesome post, very well thought out, i suppose its easy to know, mastering it is another thing. that can only come with practice

positioning is a matter of life and death.......at times

Just a question on the use of the sidestep keys Q and E. For example: If you press W+E together (so you sidestep forward and right) does that create the critical strike penalty?

I've tried to test it but things go so fast that I can't work it out so I was wondering if anyone else had been able to.

Many Thanks

No, critical penalty only happens when your running away. So basically when your back is turned to the person...not your sides, or even side of your back (someone correct me on this if I'm wrong), just your back. That's a 1/8 chance and pretty much negligible to hit as long as you don't turn your back on him If your running away then keep him on your side-back and not straight behind you.

hum how useful is this now? A while ago i noticed i could stand infront of the monk and take the hits from the warriors around him as well as the projectile attacks, but now they just go straight through me (direct damage) and so positioning doesnt seem to matter as much anymore...humph

If they form a line, run your team at them in a line, like the naval crossing the T. Have all kinds of standing health and damage reducing enchantments active on your first guy in line. When they start attacking him, have him sidestep left or right and the rest of you can pour through the gap when his opponent gives chase.

nobody has discussed height advantage. Has anyone experimented with this and can anyone say whether height has an advantage for damage? I know that in multi height has a visual advantage but since ranged attacks are auto-target anyway that wouldn't really matter. Likewise NPC's don't seem to really care about height advantage.

I don't know the exact numbers but your chances to score a higher hit, even a critical hit increase the higher elevation you are form you're opponent. I don't know this for sure, it's just something I've seen, because since beta I've always tried to gain the high-ground before an attack.

I know that ranged attacks get a damage bonus (or maybe a critical % bonus -- I just know you do more damage) from being higher up. I don't know if it works for melee also, such as fighting on a slope.

Some great info there, and definitely something many ppl will find invaluable, especially in PvP. Top stuff.

Tactical considerations like this are not common knowledge. I could tell you some pretty funny stories from other games to demonstrate the point, but I'm sure you're familiar with them.

Don't be depressed... with time, more and more people will become aware of the complexity and possibility in battle Guild Wars offers and when they do, these types of conversations will really be involved and interesting.

In closing, thanks for posting this for review. It has really helped confirm some of my own theories and opened questions for me to follow as well. It's all good.

When you create a character you can choose the height of the character as well. Does this have an impact on the chances of e.g. head blows ?

For example Two warriors facing each other,one is largest scale and other is smallest scale. Will the one with largest scale have more chances to hit the other's head and chest than when they would be of same height and consequently will the small scale warrior have more chance to hit the larger scale warrior on the legs and feet ?

Someone experimented with this ?

I am interested in the answer to that question as well, partly because I usually make minimum-size characters. Does anyone know if character size influences these percentages?

I personally build my characters as small as possible.
Not that it gives me an advantage in any shape or form.
In my mind I think...I'm as small as a field mouse.
They can't target me if I stand behind the big warriors(we all know they like to make themselves giants among men).
If ANet took it upon themselves to give an advantage to those that are taller for headshots; it stands to reason that a shorter person should have a better chance of landing a hamstring or crippling shot.
Not that it works that it works that way or ever will. I'm just pointing out that you'd have to offset that with something else.
Otherwise we'd have a game full of same height toons running around.

Mind

how much damage extra does the postition do, etc 5AL and i normally do 10 damage how much damage would i do with this trick...