Dumbing down the game

I was in FoW earlier on. Party was 3 monks, 2 warriors, 1 ele, me (Necro), and 1 other (cant remember what). Straight away someone attacks and I Blood Ritual all the monks. One of them says havent you got BiP? No I don't. Then comes a few minutes of abuse, mostly involving calling me a noob (which in itself is funny, I got most of my exp points in FoW).

Now, pardon my ignorance, but if 3 monks cant manage their healing and energy then the party was doomed anyway. 2 of the 3 monks thought that the sole purpose of a necro was to fuel their energy needs.

Anyway to the point, it seems as though we're getting to the point where there are several builds that everyone must adhere to and if they dont, then they are surplus to requirements. This is first and foremost a game. A game is meant to be fun. Restricting someone on how to play the game restricts their fun. If this is how things are gonna progress, then no more Guild Wars for me. I really didnt think I'd ever say that. I had assumed that it was only a few people bringing the rest down, but now I'm not so sure. There are too many people dumbing down the game with their carbon copy W/Mo, E/Mo, Battery Necro etc.

Sorry if i'm bringing up an old subject I couldn't find anything recently similar

To tell the truth, I think it has been that way for a while. Look at eles, many people used to complain about not getting groups unless they were E/Me echo nukers. Monks can't find a group if they smite, prot ones have a bit of trouble and people say "well, just change to heal". In general, people assume each class has only one role. A wrong assumption to be sure, but it is there none the less.

Your best choices, in my mind, are as follows:
Use henchmen (not possible for FoW and UW, as I am sure you know)
Find a group of people who accept whatever build you wish to play and enjoy FoW/UW
Join a guild.

But really, those monks should have been thanking you, glad that you did not turn out to be a minion master who is somehow going to use the bodies of those skeletons. . .

There is a lot of monks out there who expect a battery because they simply can't manage energy, that is why when I go i say I will not bring a battery and if 1 complains they get kicked and i write their name down so I know not to ever invite them into my party again. I always bring a curses necro but have him bring blood ritual (the monks don't know he is bringin it). But if a monk can't do his job without a battery why would you want them in your party anyway?

Necros going to fow should be either curse (spiteful) or death (putrid).
Bring br just in case or for emergencies. A pure energy necro in fow is a waste of space.
Casters need to manage their energy better or players (especially the nukers) need to stay behind warriors. Sound simple? You be surprised how many casters like to be in the front.

The entire challenge of being a monk is energy managment. If you can't do that w/o any help from a necro you shouldn't be a monk in the first place.

For pve a necro in most's view is to support the monks (bip, br, wob, wop). We can forget about the 100 dmg (target) and 50+ dmg aoe (surrounding foes) per second dmg output a necro has. Ya that does my party no good but that bip does a lot.

I'd take the suggestions above. Only go with friends and guildies.

I play all types of casters in all types of places, 90% of the time in PUGs. Other than specific farming builds, I never require someone to bring a specific build. However, I have no problem asking what type of build they are running, don't need exact skills and tatics but just an simple answer. If the person can't answer with an intelligent response or can't defend their reasoning with their choice, then I have no problem kicking them.

So if they expected you to be a battery, and you didn't do you job then thats your fault. If you explained you reasoning before hand, then you had bad monks.

As for monks needing or not needing a battery. Its not if they can manage their energy, if they expect a battery then they will use skills differently. Just as in a group with monks vs a self healing group.

I totally understand what you're talking about Warren.

On the grounds of teamwork issues, I'd understand if my teamates had requested me to stack my necro with battery skills prior to leaving town. But without prior notice, people actually have an expectation of how I play my character? It irks me to think that people "expect" you to play a certain way, especially in an unannounced Pug, and they say "minions are for n00bs, every necro should only be battery necros..." etc.

I guess it just all comes down to whether they've clarified the build requirements before hand or not. If not, then you shouldn't let a bunch of aholes discourage you from what i believe is the best game evar.

I got to agree with Warren also. Far too often I see people spamming mission staging areas looking for a canned group. I have been with a number of PUGS that had an odd mix of classes. For instance, doing Thirsty River with no tanks and bringing Alesia and Lina for monks. The group was successful not because you were expected to play your character only one way but because a clear plan was laid out and each player knew what they had to do and when. The leader called targets and directed the flow of the group.

Same goes with all the missions. I was in Hell's Precipice yesterday with my W/R. I was W/Mo through whole game but felt like trying something different. (also so I can learn tombs a little with you know what) There were 2 groups looking for a ranger with winter. I know, surprisingly they both had enough monks. So I whisper the respective party leaders, how about taking a warrior with winter? A resounding 'NO' (yes caps) from both almost instantly.

Well, I ended up leaving and leveling my new pet for a while. Only to come back later to find Hell's Precipice swarming with rangers. So I get in a group pretty quick. It was 2 rangers, 3 warriors, 1 ele, and lina and mhenlo. We all died at least once or twice, but we made our way through the entire mission, albeit methodically.

So cheers to all the people not afraid to try new groups.

People like stereotypes because they know what to expect of them. And they know that they work.

I personally hate that, but I can understand why fear can drive someone to (1) either not accept or kick someone that doesn't fit that stereotype or (2) ridicule you afterwards if you do not fit that stereotype.

To me, I actually TARGET non-traditional roles when I form groups later in the game. To me, if they have made it that far, they know what they are doing, versus the cookie cutter players, which you never know what you're going to get experience-wise.

My favorite group thus far was in Thunderhead Keep - 3 necros, 3 rangers (non-trappers at that) and 2 warriors. We were unstoppable at the gates.

The game isn't getting dumbed down. People just want something that's safe and easy.

Speaking as a Monk, I can't think of any part of the game that can't be done with hench Monks. However, it's a heck of a lot harder to play the game when you don't have 2-3 PC Monks, which is why people don't like to do it.

hmmm...
1st of all - prolly u wasnt lucky with ur monks. chances are 1 of them was 55hp monks (for reasons unknown they tend to play in fow in diguise of prot monks), it means that u had 2 monks instead of 3. then ur real prot monk prolly was a bonder - passive prot instead of active prot - and of cos had alot of problems with energy management. if i'm playing necro i dont mind helping prot monk with engry problems cos i know how hard it is to play prot monk in fow compare to uw or sorrows furnace. if i'm playing monk (that my main char) and go as prot i'm switching to divine prot, but still its harder to manage enegry while prot some n00b ele who's staying still in the middle of chaos storm while being wacked by 2-3 berserks and interrupted by ether breaker and yelling 'heal heal i got a firestorm coming...' like i didnt say to every nuker in group NOT to bring firestorm and other aggro-breaking aoe and stay behind tanks and kite kite kite....

but back to topic - being a monk i prefer battery with BR, not BIP - u can bring WOP if u want to be dedicated battery or better u can bring SS, if u're ne/mo, fill the rest with curses and remove enchantes, if u're ne/me - bring ispired nex - u'll have 2 SS in skillbar without echoing and help ur healers in the same time.

but overall i can understand why ppl keep asking for battery necro - more or less experienced monks tend to farm now, and newly ascended monks are still having problems with fow builds, battery necro gives some stability to pugs - i wish we can see each other's hp and skills be4 entering mission or area, but we cam only hope that it'll be possible anytime soon... smtimes battery necro is a real lifesaver - here's a real story 4 u - long time ago when i was realtively unexperieced monk and had less exp in fow that i needed i was afraid to go as only healer - and i joined pug that was asking for 2nd monk for forgemaster quests. we had necro who wanted armor, some tanks, some nukers, usual build - but smwhere near skelly i realized that i'm healing alone. i mean its pretty noticeble when u're the only healer and u're facing air spike so i asked - wtf - and 1st monk said - well srry i'm mostly smiting (like i cant see ur SoJ lol) but i'm prot - i have aegis and prot spirit, but srry, no heals. actually she wasnt able to save her own a$$ cos she really had no healing spells - quite stupid build for monk but whatever. anyway i said i cant do it, i'm outta here, its impossible to do forgemaster quests with pug and 1 real monk, necro said - stay and heal u'll have all enrgy u need.... of cos i had my own enrgy skill (OoB) but without boosts its not enough - and i dunno how he did but i had enough enrgy to heal alone (without book trick), he had BR and WOP - i guess he really wanted this armor - and actually it wasnt that bad to have smiter in team she was doing good damage be4 nerfing SoJ, tanks got some dp i think but overall it was a tolerable run.

with HUGE amount of i-monks ppl have really low expectations for their healers, so battery necro gives u some sort of stability - whatever happens nukers will be able to nuke, monks - to heal and so on... bring ur BR, but advertize as battery/ss they'll know u're not gonna spend all game running from 1 caster to another but still able to boost monks from time to time, usually its enough to get in more or less decent pug.

While I don't do very much with PuG's...I prefer henchies or on the rare occasion guildes. I do agree that just when sitting in towns or getting in groups there are nothing but carbon copy builds out there that everyone "must use". Ugh! I paid for this game and will play the build that I'm happy with and most comfortable with. Most people I've run into are cool about bring-any-kind-of-build u want. However, there are some out there that won't do a thing with you if you don't have certain skills on your bar. No thanks. It was said in an earlier post to have fun and I agree. For awhile I was playing a Mo/me...smiter...and I loved it! Couldn't do it in a party though...had to change to heal...pshh! Continued on with henchies and was perfectly happy. Let people use what they want and make it work. Everyone should be fairly intelligent and can figure out how to use each individuals skills to their best abilities. It doesn't always need to be the super easy- no thought- cookie cutter way of doing something everytime...
Thanks for reading my rant, I feel better now that I got that out
Thanks Warren for starting this thread.

I feel really sorry for necros when it comes to later missions, particularly FoW/UW. They have so much to offer a party, and they're restricted to using one skill (BiP) that, in my opinion, is wasteful. Very few builds can actually make use of the energy that BiP provides. Blood ritual does enough. Though, honestly, when I did FoW with my monk, if a necro started putting those spells on me, I'd just say "Thanks for the BR/BiP, but most of the time I don't need it. I'll ping my energy if I get low." Which never happens, because I know how to play monk

Rico

I joined a FOW group the other day and was about to ask what build they wanted me to use, when they started the mission. I should have known then that it was gonna be bad...

1/2 way through the first fight I was asked why I wasn't using BiP and wells. When I mentioned that I was a curse necro everyone started in with the N00B comments, and the "you said you were a battery necro" etc etc.

Of course politely explaining that I'd never even had a chance to ask what skills they wanted me to bring before we started did no good, so I ended up having to turn off the team chat channel and just going about my business.
Needless to say when we died and respawned at TOA I was promptly booted from the group.

Gotta love PUG's

The only thing more annoying than a healer needing a battery necro is a bonder needing one. I advertise for bonders all the time and most are not even mo/me so I don't accept them. You cannot be a good bonder without having mantra of inscriptions because you can't handle all of the energy degen and most bonders ask what they are going to do about all of the degen when you tell them to bond everyone.

Sad, but very true ...

*standing ovation* People if you never take anything else away from these forums, LISTEN TO JET on this one: there are *SO* many W/Mo's, E/Me, etc out there who have limped through the game on the easy build that get SLAUGHTERED in the later, harder missions. Kudos to you, Jet.

Exactly! I did Iron mines mission and bonus with my Ele, 1 prot monk, and hench ... I wish I could remember her name, she was hands-down the BEST monk i've ever had the privledge to witness ... most of the time all the hench were dead and she was keeping us alive very well *and* smiting! Even vs. the bonus group of Mursaat mesmers!! If you're out there, mysteious monk, "Please join are guild!"

People play certian group builds because they work. If you stay away from them just because you want to be different then thats your choice. But to assume that most of the players in the "cookie cutter" groups don't have a clue is using the same reasoning that I don't think your n/r can help me pass this mission.

One strange thing, on a side note. Is it me, or are Necromancers an angry bunch for being type cast?

^_^ always liked my ultimate W/Mo build pulled me though all missions.

W/Mo and the echo nukers aren't bad but there are too many noobs playing them.

In the final mission the other warrir left and I tanked alone and we still won ^_^

Thanks for the responses. Just to add a few things, I specifically said before we left that I wasn't bringing BiP. As far as I could figure out all 3 monks were healers.

I have brought WoP a few times, but people stand in it forever and get nuked, then wonder what happened...

What really annoyed me was that one of them actually said I was there specifically to boost their energy and nothing more. Well if thats the case then theres not much point in me having 8 skill slots...

The worst place for carbon copy builds is War Camp. I now only ever use henchies there. If I'm ever asked by a guild mate or rl friend for build advice, I always urge them to do something different. If new people use the established few builds out there, the game is gonna stagnate.

Sounds to me like your party members aren't very bright if they don't realize that your party was not optimal for a trip to FOW. You had 3 monks and a necro that was expected to supply energy as a battery rather than do damage. So half your party was expected to heal leaving only half the party to do actual damage. That doesn't sound like a very optimal team at all. Because of the reduced damage power, you of course need more healing power, lots of it, and this kind of team would be a struggle no matter what.

I have had some extremely successful and easy FOW parties recently, composed of only 1 Warrior. Along with that was 2 Monks, but actually we found out after one had to go one time, that one monk was even enough. We had one ranger (me) that took oath shot, throw dirt, 3 traps, and distracting shot. This combination was great against Abysmals and those warriors that keep running around while fighting. We also usually had at least one E, at least one Me. The rest of the party was either R, E, Me or N. Why were we so successful? We did play well as a team, that is of course very important. But also, we had very good damaging power, and the right kind of damaging power. Blinding and damaging traps from rangers, all sorts of good things from mesmers. Our E was not necessarilly a nuker, sometimes air or earth. Doing the Khoby quest was easy, the ranger's distracting shot was enough to totally shut down the Wurm Siege of the worms while the rest of the team killed the worm and whatever else was around.

Of course its ridiculous for a team to expect you to be a battery for them only. But the team wasn't very good anyway from the sounds of it, so what can you expect?

Ever ask a player "why are you using that skill"? There are a good number of players out there than simply cannot provide a reason other than "it works". Well yeah, it works in some way, that much is obvious.

I get the question "what would be a good replacement for x skill" sometimes. It's a question that I shouldn't get. If you're asking me that, then you're probably following a build that I use. Look at the build, understand why that skill is on the bar and then examine what you have. What skill can do that job or at least come close to it.

Anyway, I would've drop the team the second I saw three monks. It's insulting really to the monks. Most of the time if we have a battery, I do prefer BiP simply because it is rare to firstly find a necro, and secondly to find a *good* necro. For that matter, also finding monks that know what "ping when your energy gets low" means. I always viewed Blood Ritual being the inferior spell because of the 2 second cast time and the touch range. The problem always being that all monks would ping their energy when they were at 2 or 3 energy. Blood Ritual isn't going to help at that point. BiP however, would come instantly and with more pips of regen. Play as a monk, and the situation completely flipflops.

I've been commenting recently that almost any group of characters *can* be successful as long as they work together (in PVE).

In my opinion the temperament of the group matters more than the individual set up or whether they are perfectly skilled. Indeed it's often the people with the less conventional or less popular characters that make great team mates as they are used to waiting so long for a group. (ie Rangers and Mesmers)

I've been testing this theory by putting more effort into initial group formation, talking to them, assessing their likely humour and co-operation (instead of their build)
It's paid off really well - I've made some good friends who liked my methods of PUG recruitment and who I can now call on as regular tag alongs. We've also had some great runs even when someone DC'd (AND we have far fewer people dropping out mid run)

Two examples: FOW run - healing monk ( I was a bit dubious about them from my initial talk as it happens) Healing monk dropped because someone grumbled - I DO discourage grumbling - but nevertheless that was one oversensitive monk. Ele dropped (DC) and messaged me to apologise (I like that - anyone can DC by accident - if they msg to apologise then suggests they were still a good recruit)
So 6 players - with only a Prot Bond monk (me) and supposedly too many warriors .... we carried on to complete and do the whole Lich / Droknars Forge stuff and got loads of shards as there were only 6 of us.

Glint Mission
carefully assembled a group - (mainly people I knew) as I wanted to kill Glint which needs a co-operative bunch. our healing monk was the 9 year old son of another member - very inexperienced, he was told to follow me (!) as senior Prot Monk (heehee) 7 in the group
*I* crashed (arrrrgh MY MISSION!) but the others completed with one inexperienced monk and 6 members.

I'm not *that* good a player myself. I'm a reasonably competent monk, but I don't do anything fancy, and Im a bit haphazard when I am moving as my mouse is sticky I'd never claim to be great as a result.
But my skill is I'm great at forming good groups and creating a good atmosphere in the groups I am in. I think that skill goes a long way.

Sister Spice

I've been playing since release and I have three characters, w/mo, ranger, ele/mo and sure I see groups wanting a ele with zingo water hosing and FYI on the PDQ, or RSVP soonest! Since I haven't the faintest idea what they're talking about I don't join those groups.

Also, I'm pretty sure they haven't the slightest idea what they're talking about either and are just throwing acronymns and terminology around most of the time. The good old Guild Wars is better than ever. Just avoid the buzzword contingent and you will be fine.

Hmmm... I agree, although I have a nasty feeling that some people are expecting (and treating) other players as nothing more than just henchies. They seem to forget that other players have their own style of play and their own preference in the skills they are using. Granted there are times when a team needs members to play specific roles, and as others have mentioned, this should be expressed clearly in the beginning and not be automatically assumed.

To me, assuming a necro to be set up as a battery is like assuming a monk to be set up for healing, which we know is not always true due to the fact that there are solo scamming monks running around out there.

If people want a team to play in a certain way, then they need to make sure that they have the members to do that. Personally, I think good players and good teams are those that are flexible enough to cope with diversity and elements that are not considered to be the norm (such as non 'text book' builds and party makeup).

The game is quite deep, with overlapping skills and attributes that are not easily understood. As players gain experience they learn the nuances of different abilities and can become quite demanding about who carries what.
What I don't understand is the incredible arrogance that some people develop as they gain knowledge of the game. For them, everyone else is a noob and they treat their groups like children. I guess the fun for them is bossing people around. In a recent group we had a character like that. He was insulting various players and acting like a little dictator. Later someone asked what everyone's age was. The dictator was 12.

like Willy, i've found most dictators to be in the range of 10-15 yr in age. i was on my heal monk for a uw pug, and i always carry prot spirit because you _never_ know what you're gonna get in a pug. they tell you they're all stance, and they're all dmg, etc, etc. and it's good for keeping the soft underbelly of the party alive if the casters can take at least 1 aatxe hit without dying.

our prot monk started getting on my case, yelling that he had prot spirit. what was i doing, and haven't i ever heard of a "build"??? um yeah, i build them myself.

i had guessed the kid acted about 12 or so, found our he was 15. at least he mellowed out after i saved his ass several times w/ prot spirit and kept the party going against huge mobs whenever he went down. he wasn't a very good monk, but i guess that doesn't matter when you gotta build ripped off the net?

had my warr on and we did the Markis mission WITH NO MONKS
actually it was quite easy

we all got sick of waiting, I think it was 4-5 warriors and a couple rangers
we really had no problem wasting the entire area

only when 1 or two got jumpy did anyone end up die/dp
and yes that was attacking mursaat and jade