The Debate over Forced PvE Grind

Some people consider 100 hours a grind. Personally whether it's 10 minutes or 10 hours if it's time spent doing something "unfun" or repetitive I consider that to be "grind".

Guildwars was always marketed as a game that a casual player could get some PvP fun from ... PvP fun at the HIGHEST competitive level. It's even on the box!

GuildWars Box Said:
"You'll prove your worth with every battle as skill, not hours played, decides your fate. Whether battling horrific monsters or competing at the highest levels of tournament play, it will always be your skill that earns you victory or defeat."

Note as well that the box states a player will be able to "compete at the highest levels of tournament play".

Not the lowest level, not the "casual players" level. The HIGHEST level. A tournament where you prove your worth as SKILL NOT HOURS PLAYED decides your fate.

I think having to farm out runes and elites for 100 hours + in order to be competitive certainly counts as "hours played" ....

So what is it? Skill? Or Hours Played?

I'm confused.

I know my own avatar has close to 100 hours on it ... and I'm not even close to being PvP ready (competitive PvP that is)

One last note: I have asked the mods to delete any posts in my thread that show a lack of respect to each other. My last topic got locked because people attacked each other instead of debating things with respect to each other. I think this issue is an important one, please post your ideas and thoughts freely but RESPECT EACH OTHER in your posts. It's ok to disagree with another person's point of view but flaming is not the way to show that disagreement. Neither is writing a somewhat pleasant post that is still a flame hidden under a thin veneer of opinionated "logic". There is no "right" or "wrong" way of thinking on this issue. Everybody has their own thoughts and that's fine.

Be nice to each other. It's ok to disagree, it's not ok to be a$$holes about it.

Could not agree more, writing off large chunks of the game as 'timesink grind' simply because it doesnt appeal to your exact tastes is lame.

Like the man said, this is 'possibly' the least time intensive, grind less fantasy based MMO in existance.

Some, not all, of what iv been reading recently amounts to little more than 'remove the entire RPG aspect of the game, or seperate it from the PvP, cos we/I dont like it'.

So what if there are 'some' timesinks in the game, its not for your money, and how many game developers, graphic designers, coders, and artists would you blame for 'encouraging' you to see more of their game? If you think 'noway, my times too precious too wander about experiancing what someone else created for my enjoyment' then bleh.

If an individual does not want to spend their time exploring a game, then you dont have too, but please dont criticise the game for that, or catagorise what is merely your opinion in an insulting way to people who do wish to experiance it.

All you have to do is look at the title of this topic. Debate Over forced PvE Grind. How do you think the developers feel seeing that? You might not agree with some aspects of the game, there is always disagreement in games, but that title pretty much writes off 9/10ths of the effort, coding, and workload placed into this game as a time wasting bore.

Ok so sometimes we all get frustrated at parts of the game. But how many hunters for example have wasted hours upon hours simply wandering around the area of the 1st two hunter trainers in Pre Searing, simply because the area is utterly beautiful? I know iv spent 6-10 hours of my life ill never get back splashing around in pools and waterfalls and rivers, shooting scorpions with my bow.

Personally iv yet to find anything in the game that to me is a crushing bore, a soul destroying grind, or a teeth grinding pain. But thats just me.

Admittadly, having to level a character purely to compete in PvP might be a frustration, but once you get under way do you really despise every minute? Are there really some times in the game when you reach for the X, only to stop because you desperatly want to finish your character?

The title of the thread does not "write offf 9/10ths of the effort, coding, and workload placed into this game as a time wasting bore".

Contrary to what some may think many players enjoy both the PvE portion's of the game AND the PvP portions.

Those same players (myself for instance) do not however enjoy being forced to go back and repeat PvE content in order to become competitive at PvP. We see that a grind and a timesink.

Certain areas of the game provide the best farming zones (riverside for instance) to get runes, meaning hours of gametime spent attacking those same trolls over and over to get the right drops (grind). The way the elite system works getting the elites you need is not linear with the progression of your character through the PvE content so you often have to go back and repeat missions over multiple times to get the elites you need (grind).

I have no problem doing the PvE game I ENJOY it. I DO however have a problem with having to repeat the same content over and over and over and over and over in order to build a competitive PvP avatar.

Runes give you an edge, but it in no way keeps you form being competitive in PvP. Also, the "casual" player can "compete" with the upper tier PvP, but do you honestly expect them to win? No, the other players are much more skilled at the game.

I also grow tired of people saying "So what is it? Skill? Or Hours Played?". I know that yall get tired of hearing people talk about CS, but its true. CS is a game you can pick up and from the start automaticly be on even footing with any other player. That is not what this game is about. This game *is* based on skill, but you can not really want to play a game that you can sit down and beat in 10 mins. I for one would not buy a game like this. The story, graphics, all of this game is astonding, If you are only focused on one aspect of it (PvP or PvE) you are missing the greatness that is GW.

One thing that Laz keeped saying in the last thread was that the PvP was the end-game. Most people can agree with this. With it being called the end-game that infers that you most do somthing before you can truly become a "dominating" PvP player.

I will yet again voice my consern for people seeming to want two different games. There is no need for two completely seperate entities within one game.

I don't see PvP as the end game.

I enjoy both PvE and PvP.

I think competitive means "having a chance of winning".

The reason people keep on saying "so what is it skill or hours played?" is because the game has been marketed and advertised as being one where it is NOT hours played ...

Where it is one's skill that will determine victory. Having to farm out the runes and elites however shifts the balance from "skill" to one of time spent playing. Those with enough time to get the superior equipment will win no matter if they have the same "skill" as those people that have not had the same amount of time to collect all the superior equipment.

All PvP tools (runes, skills etc) need to be easily accessable to everyone be it a casual player or the hardcore 1000 hour people.

Otherwise the game is no longer based on player skill but based on equipment.

Think UT2004. Assuming both players have EQUAL player skill who's going to win - The guy with access to the rocket launcher, sniper rifle, Flak Cannon, Shield Pack, health booster? Or the guy who is stuck with the basic handgun, no shield pack, no health booster and no access to any other weapons?

Sure the basic handgun guy might get really lucky ... but nine times out of ten it will be the guy with the better equipment that gets the frag.

It's the same in Guildwars ... By limiting access to the "tools" of PvP you shift the game from being one based on player skill to one based on who has spent enough time to get all the equipment.

THAT is what many players are so upset about.

The difference that items make in this game is so minute that I hardly think that it will give you the "uberness" that you claim it will in PvP. Like I said, it is an edge nothing more.

What I can gather from your argument is that you want two diferent games. You want it so that PvPers dont have to spend time looking for stuff like PvEers do. That is something that would piss alot of the people that do both off. I dont want two seperate games, and this would seperate the games for the following reasons. NO PvP players would even think about playing PvE because there would be no need to. I (and people like me) would be forced to go one way or the other, because if I do PvE and then try and do PvP I will be at a disadvantage from the get-go. (with the much easyer aquisition of skills the PvPers would have a much bigger arsonel to choose from)

They did an great job of balencing this game between both PvP and PvE. The game isent one or the other, its all incompassing.

K, I read the whole thread that Bamelin started and got the end and found it locked. At least he opened this so I could throw my 2 cents in real quick. I am for the SoC as it is. The alternatives really are nothing but circumnavigating the actual issue. If you have large gold costs for elite skills, how are you gonna pay for your runes? Your weapons? Are you gonna complain about how long you have to "grind" for these items now that you've spent your money on your elites? It seems as though the people who want change are basically saying that it's too tough to spend an hour to get an elite skill. This game is for casual gamers, they say. What about the skill you get from practicing hour after hour with your guild? Doesn't that descriminate against the casual gamer? Should there be handicaps for teams going against other teams with a better record/more play time? I hate to purport these slippery slope arguments, but seriously, what's next? Another thing to think about despising levelling in this game is how the developers actually feel about that. They are gonna want you to experience as much of this world that they spent countless hours designing (and, as far as I can tell, they did a fantastic job of it) as they can. Also, to people saying you can't learn anything in PvE that will help you in PvP, I call shenanigans. I say you will learn both things that will probably hurt you in PvP as well as things that you will end up using to your advantage in a PvP situation.


*Edit: Also, are people saying that it's not possible to beat someone with an elite spell? And if not impossible, just how much harder? Isn't is possible for, say, a very skillful person to completely own someone with an elite skill? Wouldn't skill bring the person without an elite skill over someone without as much skill, but with the skill? Speculative on my part, but I think the skillful player would do rather well.

can i get a serious answer from several competitive top guilds?

how many hours/day do you consider to be the MINIMUM you need to practice to be competitive?

secondly do you think a truly casual player can be competitive at the top of the ladder?

last do you think a casual player can be *competive* at a pick up level of a few random matches and go back to real life?

How does being able to buy elites of skill traders constitute a "seperate game"?

That's how it worked right up to the end of last BWE and everyone was happy, both those that enjoy PvE, those that enjoy PvP, and those that enjoy both.

Manderlock you said in the first part of you quote "The difference that items make in this game is so minute that I hardly think that it will give you the "uberness" that you claim it will in PvP. Like I said, it is an edge nothing more."

Later on you stated "I (and people like me) would be forced to go one way or the other, because if I do PvE and then try and do PvP I will be at a disadvantage from the get-go. (with the much easyer aquisition of skills the PvPers would have a much bigger arsonel to choose from"

Which is it? Items are so minute that it hardly gives the uberness I claim OR the easier aquisition of skills the PvPers would have puts you at a disadvantage? I consider skills and abilties to be items.

I'm not looking for two seperate games. I'm looking for the game we had in the last BWE. The game that had almost NO grind, the game that BOTH PvP'ers AND PvE'ers were happy with.

Cause honestly, there were no complaints from either side of the fence ...

I understand that PvE'ers want their rewards ... I play PvE myself and gain enjoyment from rewards based on the investments I've made into my avatar.

I DO NOT however wish that those rewards make me a better PvP player based simply on the fact that I have more access to spells and items gained over time.

Do you not see that by limiting the PvP toolbase based on the amount of grind (or fun gametime depending on your perspective), you create an environment that locks the casual player out of competitive PvP gameplay? It's not fair to reward a dedicated PvE'er by screwing over the casual PvP'er.

Honestly I see PvP in Guildwars as being something more akin to Counterstrike or UT2004. The whole "It's an RPG" holds no water to me. The reason the game is so appealing to the PvP and many FPS'ers crowd is the fact that it is(was in beta) competitive based on player skill rather than items gathered over time. With the new system for collecting elites combined with an already painful grind for runes, it has gone from being somewhat of a challenge to make a competitive PvP avatar to being a part time job. A big part of the people playing GW don't have the time to devote to such an endeavor ... that is why we're raising such a stink ... GW was marketed as being the first game that the casual player could take part in without having to devote endless hours to it ...

As I write this I'm in between classes ... later I'll be on a bus heading to my next practicum interview. End of the month I'll be in my work placement for 8 weeks .... with assignments, homework AND a wife to please on top of all of that. I enjoyed GW during the BWE's because I was able to make a competitive PvP avatar extremely quickly. I don't have the luxury of grinding that some people do. The new changes screwed people like me. That is why we are crying out the loudest.

All we are asking is that elites be put back on the skill traders just like they were in the BWE's. Nobody had any problems with that ... I don't recall PvE'ers screaming how unfair it was that elites could be bought of traders ... everyone was HAPPY ... let's make everyone happy again.

Firstly it can take much more than an hour to get an elite skill ... sometimes a combination of having a crappy party that gets wiped out, the wrong boss coming up in the rotation, the elite being located near the end of the mission, using SoC and getting the wrong skill (something that happens ALOT to rangers looking for stances) or a combination of all of these mitigating factors can making getting one elite a 2 - 3 hour chore.

As for the skill you get from practicing hour after hour with your guild ... that is PLAYER skill. That is not skill based on items.

It's all about the "level" playing field. A casual gamer coming into the PvP environment should at least have the same TOOLS as those they are playing against ...

The casual gamer should be able to play a few times a week and know that they have just as much chance as the top ranked guild of winning a match based on BOTH sides having access to the same equipment and spells.

With the current system this is not the case. Only those players that have grinded out hours in PvE collecting all the elites and runes have full access to all the tools of PvP. Using my UT2004 example, the grinder team has access to the rocket launcher, the Chaingun, the Flak Cannon, +99 health booster and Shield pack. The casual player team has access to the handgun.

Not only that but the hardcore grinder team ALSO has the benefit of hours of experience behind them too (as you mentioned).

The casual player will get slaughtered.

How is that competitive? How is that a challenge?

Now if you give the casual team access to the same weapons and armour as the hardcore team ... at least one can argue that the "match" was fair. It was the superior player "skill" of the hardcore team that won the match not a superior "itemset".

The game IS supposed to be about player skill, not player items (items meaning skills, abilities, runes, etc)

Yes a guild that practices more together time wise will probaly be better than one that does not and yes that is something that rewards time spent in game .... but that is time that PvP'ers WANT to spend in game and find FUN. If I do happen to have an hour a night to devote to GW you had better bet I'd rather be practicing PvP with my guild than grinding out yet another rune or elite at Riverside. I'd rather be "having fun now" than playing to get to the point where I am "almost ready to have fun".

Currently my guild is 13-2, (We Are Godzilla You Are Japan).
Im STILL the only one in my guild who has a maxed out character and doesnt use PVP only characters. They use skills from their regular character(some), but they use PVP characters.

I dont practice really I just play when I have people on and have some fun with it. I would say just find a build that youre very comfortable with and find out exactly how to make it the most effective and make sure you hold yourself to that in battle and youll do fine.

I honestly do think a casual player can be competative. A whole group of people that have no idea what theyre doing? no way in hell. Our 7th or 8th person is usually not the best cookie in the jar but we like all of our guild members and we get the job done with teamwork.

If you have a group you normally go with yes you can be effective as a casual player, but dont just keep hitting into random groups that youve never met. The other team is usually going to be a team that plays together often. And if you want to be able to beat them thats not really fair.

I figured I would leave my 2 cents. Im sure my opinion would matter a little more if my guild were still #1(we lost twice in a row and took a break due to rebuilding our templates), though.

EDIT: Guy above me posted this...
"With the current system this is not the case. Only those players that have grinded out hours in PvE collecting all the elites and runes have full access to all the tools of PvP. Using my UT2004 example, the grinder team has access to the rocket launcher, the Chaingun, the Flak Cannon, +99 health booster and Shield pack. The casual player team has access to the handgun."

First of all, way to be over dramatic. Secondly I have one of the best weapons I can possibly ever get. You know what the difference between that and the ones you can get with pvp only characters? A fire damage hilt and a +28 health pommel. You can get that stuff by standing in lions arch for like 15-30 mins and buy one.

Here's my equipment...
Knights Armor-(runes on it), minor sword, minor str, minor vigor, minor absorption. I could have held out for superior vigor and absorption but it wasnt necessary.

Weapon- Fiery Dragon Sword(15-22), +15% dmg when Hp is above 50%, +28 health.

Shield- Buckler(16 AL, tactics requires), +30 hp when enchanted, -2 dmg when enchanted.[i also note, that I dont have tactics, yet I still can beat almost any warrior ive ever faced without the 16 AL. Skill maybe? These pvp only characters can get a shield with 16 armor, +45 health when enchanted, -2 dmg when enchanted. More armor and more health. I still compete, wanna fight me and see?]

----

Maybe you need to take a look at your skill? Maybe you arent as good as you think you are? I'm sure there are warriors out there that have around the same equipment as me but I'll still probobly kill them(not to sound ****y but i've never been killed by a warrior 1v1, yet I do it to people all the time).

Do you go into CS expecting to take on a Cal-I team with your pub skills? No. Its not any different here.

Once and for all, If you don't enjoy the game why are you playing it? Go find a game that suits you more. Unless you want to admit that this is the best one out there yet you still arent satisfied.

Dunno, my observations.

You know battle mode in Super Mario Brothers 3?? Go play that.

If you can't spend a week or so to level to 20 and get some nice gear, then you shouldn't be playing an RPG. Yes this RPG has great PVP but its still an RPG.

Also, learn what grind means. Playing out an amazing game and story line is not "grinding".

It sounds like people want all the best gear in PVP with none of the work, thats not how RPGs work.

Thats just it though, a small minority of the player base see the RPG aspect of the game as a 'timesinking grind'.
Dont say im flaming, enough people have said enough things in several topics for any non retarded person to come to the same conclusion.

This game is not designed so that you can PvP, PvP then PvP some more, and not suffer from a loss of 'competitive edge'. And if you counter that by saying 'ooh but the box promises no pointless grind boohoohooooo' then see you later, Role playing games are NOT for you. Which BTW is EXACTLY what Guild Wars is.

How many people turn up for a fight with a 'build' that isnt supposed to 'behave' a certain way? Thats called role playing you nubs, whether its in an arena Warrior versus Mage, or out in the 'grind' saving the world and righting wrongs. No matter which aspect you prefer, the entire game is based around each and every player assuming a ROLE.

Now that we have established that this ENTIRE game is about PLAYING A ROLE, we can start to discuss exactly what the problems are here.
And the problems (problems? lol) are that people are forced to PLAY THIS GAME in order to be any good at this game.
Thus we get post after post after topic of people saying how the game was misadvertised, how it lies, how 90% of the game is pointless grind....

Just to clarify, what grinding means, is repeating the same individual, mundane, frustrating task, over and over and over.
Capturing elite skills with a signet requires that you use the signet at the same time a boss creature uses the skill. JUST ONCE.
I know this is difficult, but the actual action of recieving the skill requires one action.
Now, in order to be in a postion to carry out this action you must: Find the boss creature, : Have a SoC : Use it at the right time.

This will require skill at surviving long enough to fnd the boss, intimate knowledge of the game to know who the boss is/where he might be, skill to use the SoC at the correct time.
Please let me know exactly when in that process is a repeated, continuous, carrying out of the same action over a vast length of time?

Here is a thought, rather than miscalling the game, the developers, implying they lied etc. You say that the section of the players of this game who desire only to PvP do not have the patience to go through the entire process of capturing every required skill in this vast and sometimes confusing world, and can YOU PLEASE HELP?

No one is denying that 'some' people find 'some' aspects of this game tedious, and boring. No one who enjoys this game/sunk hours into playing/creating this game wants to be unreasonable. what people do object to is reading post after post of people saying the game is a lie, saying the developers lied, saying the game is a grind, insulting this very game. whether or not you would catagorise or intend your posts to insult, they DO insult, they are not factual, they are opinionated flamebaits, intended to miscall the company into giving you your own way.

Not all, but some very 'articulated' posts are just that. Now we have here a game, it is new, it underwent several phases of testing. I honestly wonder just how many MMO newbies we have playing Guild Wars because a lot of the 'beta testers' Iv seen post do not seem to understand that in every game where the public tests, those testers gain access to ALL the required content that needs to be tested, not because that is how it will be presented in the final version, but because it needs tested.

Please, for the sake of oringinal creative and inspiring gaming, can you not try and humiliate, insult or call the developers liars, even if thats how you feel, because they have tried to create something enjoyable and original and inspiring and fun. If individuals themselves do not feel overly awed by certain aspects, dont take it out on the game/developers, dont say its a grind when its an RPG, but merely ask that your desires get considered, and that decions get respected, even if you question those decisions.

That is all.

Ok. Correct me if I'm wrong, but won't a more skillfull player complete it in a more timely manner?

If you consider skills and items to be the same, your wrong. Although the both will still just give you an edge, they still are two completly different things.

The ability to buy elite skills from the vender I Beta erked me, simply because it was too easy. They have fixed that and made it more difficult to aquire said skills. This game has wraped PvE and PvE all into one great game, so lets keep it one game. I dont feel that I need to explain about why I feel how I do, I did that in my first post on this thread.

ok i thought i'd post here again after my first experience at capturing some skills.

I worked for about 4 hours and got only 1 skill!!!

the first one was in a mission, and i had to run 90% of it 4 times to get the skill...the first time i spotted the guy, the second time he wasn't there, and i couldn't find him, the third time i found him again but he was in a different spot, alone, and my henchies killed him before he used the skill...then the 4th time i took less henchies, was lucky enough to find him, and capture the skill.

All that for one skill...the only skill i spent a few hours looking for 2 specific boss mobs, found them, fought them a few times, but they did not use the skill.

If they are going to hand all elite skill out to pvp toons...they need to hand them all out to everybody, because i shouldn't have to work my ass off for 30 or 40 hours to get the elite skills for one profession if they're going to hand them out for nothing to pvp characters.

That's the point though. The PvP players who don't want to play the entire game want to be spoonfed. They feel that the PvE aspect is irrelevant to them if all they want is the PvP. That's legitimate, but there isn't a system they could possibly offer that wouldn't screw PvE players who like PvP. No matter what, it comes down to fairness and sadly, whether or not people who feel they're shafted by this system are willing to admit it, the current system is more than fair.

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