After seeing what new basic skills have been added to Factions for my beloved Warrior, I notice that there's almost nothing really... New. Sure, there's some gimmicks, like gaining some adrenaline, or conditional bleeding, but it all boils down to 'Hit for X damage'
Now, as much as I like hitting for X damage, I must wonder, what kind of skills will be appearing in Chapters 3+? Hit For X Damage, Knock Down, and cause bleeding? All for 12 Adren!
Looking at monk skills, I feel bad for monks. Healing monks specifically. 'Heal for X' is pretty much what all of those skills are. Wow, one with half range, that heals for more! Whats in store for Ch3? Twice the normal range for a spell, but heals for 10?
Upon being disappointed with many of the factions basic skills (Very impressed with the diversity of elites, btw. Auspicious Parry <3), I hope that the developers can keep the game fresh in upcoming chapters.
So, to make this a discussion, what classes do you think got shafted, as far as basic skills are concerned? And, further, which classes do you feel got some most excellent basic skills?
PS: I have no problem with copy skills, they have their place.
Core Classes and New Chapters, Concerned
Loshi
Arkantos
Sever Gash - Target foe starts bleeding and suffers from a deep wound for x seconds.
Jamei's Healing Breeze - Heal target ally for x health and they gain x health regeneration for 10 seconds.
Sun and Hamstring Slash - Attack target foe twice. The first attack cannot be "blocked". The second causes crippling for x seconds.
The list goes on...
Jamei's Healing Breeze - Heal target ally for x health and they gain x health regeneration for 10 seconds.
Sun and Hamstring Slash - Attack target foe twice. The first attack cannot be "blocked". The second causes crippling for x seconds.
The list goes on...
Snowman
Yea I tend to agree.. there are some nice new skills but when you look closley at those skills very few are actually any good!.. of you would almost always decide to chose another skill.
but different skills find different levels of uses in different situations.
I will survive for example, in AvA is awesome.. so many conditions being thrown around and so many assasins that I will survive becomes the ultimate tank skill.
So, they could do some skill balancing to make less used skills more attractive, or they could introduce new situations where such skills become alot more usefull... which they could do in coming chapters.
I guess alot depends what type of player you are.
but different skills find different levels of uses in different situations.
I will survive for example, in AvA is awesome.. so many conditions being thrown around and so many assasins that I will survive becomes the ultimate tank skill.
So, they could do some skill balancing to make less used skills more attractive, or they could introduce new situations where such skills become alot more usefull... which they could do in coming chapters.
I guess alot depends what type of player you are.
Nexus Icon
Mesmers got some GREAT basic skills, such as Images of Remorse, Complicate and Power Return. Power Return in particular is nice, as I've always felt that Mesmers needed more primary attribute based skills.
And Unnatural Signet makes a welcome return. Definitely the most efficient way of pissing off spirit spammers.
And Unnatural Signet makes a welcome return. Definitely the most efficient way of pissing off spirit spammers.
Demesis
Shiro's slash: - Hit target foe 10 times, 1st hit bleeding, 2nd hit deep wound, 3rd hit burning, 4th hit dazed, 5th hit blind, 6th hit poison, 7th hit disease, 8th hit weakness, 9th hit crippled and 10th hit +400 dmg. Shiro's slash cannot be blocked or evaded.
Now THAT's a skill...lol
Now THAT's a skill...lol
Rathcail
They should add Hamstorm in.
Rent
This same thing occurred to me, recently. Honestly, there's only so many ways they can twist "strike target foe for +x damage" with various conditions, or "target foe and all nearby foes take x fire damage every second."
So how to fix this problem? Once again, draw inspiration from Magic: the Gathering. They have several thousand cards, yet there's an enormous variety among them--because in every new set, they come up with new ways to bend the rules, to let you do something that you previously could not do. Introduce new limiters, and then new skills that bend those limiters.
So how to fix this problem? Once again, draw inspiration from Magic: the Gathering. They have several thousand cards, yet there's an enormous variety among them--because in every new set, they come up with new ways to bend the rules, to let you do something that you previously could not do. Introduce new limiters, and then new skills that bend those limiters.
Erasculio
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Originally Posted by Loshi
After seeing what new basic skills have been added to Factions for my beloved Warrior, I notice that there's almost nothing really... New. Sure, there's some gimmicks, like gaining some adrenaline, or conditional bleeding, but it all boils down to 'Hit for X damage'
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No idea if that's real or just something in my head, or if that was done on purpose, but if yes to both of those, I would expect to see different skills in Nightfall - it would have a different "theme", and so be different from what we got in Factions.
Erasculio
Paperfly
Elementalists seem to have received the opposite end of the Warriors' stick: There's some new, fun and interesting spells in there - stuff like Burning Speed - but the backbone damage spells that should form the meat of the build are lacking!
Oh, and the elites pretty much all suck.
[Edit: Yeah, I noticed how horribly I mixed those metaphors. Backbone != meat!]
Oh, and the elites pretty much all suck.
[Edit: Yeah, I noticed how horribly I mixed those metaphors. Backbone != meat!]
lyra_song
I thought the warrior stuff got better on the hammer side of skills.
renewing smash is definitely interesting.
renewing smash is definitely interesting.
Ulivious The Reaper
mesmers interested in shutting down Casters via the Theivery now have Larceny from factions and with ECHO and Arcane Echo they can shut down half the spells on a healing monk for 27 seconds 
makes for some fun in Alliance battles, works especially well against necromancers, especially if you steal taste of death works for some easy raping on that necro :P
But yes, i personally love the new (and not so new) faction skills we got, they make for fun and unique builds (Eviscrate executioners strike penetrating chop&blow FTW
!!!)
makes for some fun in Alliance battles, works especially well against necromancers, especially if you steal taste of death works for some easy raping on that necro :P But yes, i personally love the new (and not so new) faction skills we got, they make for fun and unique builds (Eviscrate executioners strike penetrating chop&blow FTW
twicky_kid
Factions skills look much the same because the same game mechanics have not changed much.
Rits played off spirit spamming which already existed. Shadow step was the only true new concept.
The core proffessions mechanics are not going to change. They have their jobs to do and nothing else just like every other proffesion. New mechanics will be introduced with new proffessions. The problem here is they have to keep the new mechanics in balance which means they cannot be more powerful than what we already have. If it comes out stronger it will be nerfed.
Mtg didn't do that. The new mechanics were usually stronger than the previous editions. Mtg can do this because they have different formats of play that limits what cards you can use. For GW to survive the long haul its going to have to follow this. They need more formats of gameplay and tournements and ban perticular skills from being used in that format.
That's where player skill is going to come. Restrictoins on what you can use and play with what you have (even if it is a disadvantage). That to me is a better solution than nerfing a skill across all formats or gimping the skill because it would be too powerful in a different format.
Rits played off spirit spamming which already existed. Shadow step was the only true new concept.
The core proffessions mechanics are not going to change. They have their jobs to do and nothing else just like every other proffesion. New mechanics will be introduced with new proffessions. The problem here is they have to keep the new mechanics in balance which means they cannot be more powerful than what we already have. If it comes out stronger it will be nerfed.
Mtg didn't do that. The new mechanics were usually stronger than the previous editions. Mtg can do this because they have different formats of play that limits what cards you can use. For GW to survive the long haul its going to have to follow this. They need more formats of gameplay and tournements and ban perticular skills from being used in that format.
That's where player skill is going to come. Restrictoins on what you can use and play with what you have (even if it is a disadvantage). That to me is a better solution than nerfing a skill across all formats or gimping the skill because it would be too powerful in a different format.
AnnaCloud9
I'm leaning toward...the idea that the assassin was a great model for future uses of skills. Execute Skill A first to take full advantage (or full use for that matter) of Skill B that follows. Succession skills and such? No, not all that spiking stuff, but I'm not so good with explaining the video games and their mechanics, so these are just things that pop into my head ever so often :P
I think the Necromancy skills are excellent examples of this, if you want a Prophecies way of looking at it. However, the dependency on another necromancer for a few of these skills, or the coordination of other team members, puts these type of skills in the dumpster, simply because no one ever looks for a Dark Fury Necro these days :P So! My idea goes to using skills in another way to get the best effect, rather than trying to come up with new names for old skills every chapter. My two cents *waves*
I think the Necromancy skills are excellent examples of this, if you want a Prophecies way of looking at it. However, the dependency on another necromancer for a few of these skills, or the coordination of other team members, puts these type of skills in the dumpster, simply because no one ever looks for a Dark Fury Necro these days :P So! My idea goes to using skills in another way to get the best effect, rather than trying to come up with new names for old skills every chapter. My two cents *waves*
sinican
why not jsut introduce dual class skills
what i mean is sets of skilsl that have 2 att requirements that give beyond normal benefits...
or introduce CORE class skills that have min att ratings of 15/16 that have of corse hgher benefits...
so in short dual class specific skills
and CORE class specific skills
example...
Fatal Ripose
Swords/Deadly arts (W/A, A/W)
next attack is blocked, attacking foe takes XX DMG and is bleed or poison for xx seconds
Legends Strike
Swords (min 15) (Warrior max swords)
attack cannor be blocked or evade and strikes for xxx dmg
pretty much sorta limit breakers but have high requirements to meet
what i mean is sets of skilsl that have 2 att requirements that give beyond normal benefits...
or introduce CORE class skills that have min att ratings of 15/16 that have of corse hgher benefits...
so in short dual class specific skills
and CORE class specific skills
example...
Fatal Ripose
Swords/Deadly arts (W/A, A/W)
next attack is blocked, attacking foe takes XX DMG and is bleed or poison for xx seconds
Legends Strike
Swords (min 15) (Warrior max swords)
attack cannor be blocked or evade and strikes for xxx dmg
pretty much sorta limit breakers but have high requirements to meet
Erasculio
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Originally Posted by sinican
why not jsut introduce dual class skills
what i mean is sets of skilsl that have 2 att requirements that give beyond normal benefits... |
If you have a higher cost, people wouldn't use those unless they are better than the other skills. If they are better than the other skills, regadless of the cost, they are imbalanced. The requirements you mention aren't uncommon - everyone has 2 Professions, so the skills that require two classes would simply be overpowered at little cost. The same applies with skills that actually have a requirement - it's not uncommon for people to have a lot of attribute points invested in one direction, therefore said skills would be overpowered at little cost.
GW doesn't support "uber" stuff - be it skills or items. The only "uber" stuff that fits within the game is uber player skills, and that's something hard to find.
Erasculio
Sanji
A lot of the faction core skills failed to satisfy.
This is something that is not likely to get better as more exapansions get released.
This is something that is not likely to get better as more exapansions get released.
Pandora's box
I mentioned this in another discussion this weekend:
I think its inevitable to adopt the MtG system of using skills for future expansions: Keep a set of core skills and ban all other skills older than 2 years (at least for PvP games). This allows the game to envolve, slowly introducing differend and stronger skills without destroying the games balance.
I think its inevitable to adopt the MtG system of using skills for future expansions: Keep a set of core skills and ban all other skills older than 2 years (at least for PvP games). This allows the game to envolve, slowly introducing differend and stronger skills without destroying the games balance.
The one Casey Squid
I think that who ever created the skills at anet was set with a deadline to make the skills and he had to make six really fast. here's part of the conversation
Anet dude 1 :Shit! Only five minutes to finish up these skills...Damn...ARGh.
Anet dude 2 :Hmm see that warrior hammer skill?
Anet dude 1 : Enraged smash?
Anet dude 2 : yeah...how about you just duplicate that six times?
Anet dude 1: GENIUS!
Anet dude 1. *writes down* engraged smash, enraged lunge, Doom...
It just some of the skills seem exactly the same to me.
Anet dude 1 :Shit! Only five minutes to finish up these skills...Damn...ARGh.
Anet dude 2 :Hmm see that warrior hammer skill?
Anet dude 1 : Enraged smash?
Anet dude 2 : yeah...how about you just duplicate that six times?
Anet dude 1: GENIUS!
Anet dude 1. *writes down* engraged smash, enraged lunge, Doom...
It just some of the skills seem exactly the same to me.
Boofhead
Some of them ARE exactly the same 
Zio
This is a downside of Anets chapter system. Normally expansions are not standalones, so they consist of entirely original content that's added on top of the existing game.
But Anet decided to make each chapter it's own standalone game, and therefore each one has to have a whole games worth of content.
They spent a year balancing hundreds of skills in Prophecies, the only feasable way to offer a whole new games worth of skills is to use work that's already been done. So of course you end up using all the old skills you already made an balanced, but you give them new names and icons and maybe tweak some stats here and there.
It's not their fault, it's what you have to do with the standalone chapter system.. But in all honesty, I see almost no benefit to the chapter system and would rather have normal expansion packs.
But Anet decided to make each chapter it's own standalone game, and therefore each one has to have a whole games worth of content.
They spent a year balancing hundreds of skills in Prophecies, the only feasable way to offer a whole new games worth of skills is to use work that's already been done. So of course you end up using all the old skills you already made an balanced, but you give them new names and icons and maybe tweak some stats here and there.
It's not their fault, it's what you have to do with the standalone chapter system.. But in all honesty, I see almost no benefit to the chapter system and would rather have normal expansion packs.
hellboy909
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Originally Posted by Boofhead
Some of them ARE exactly the same
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Actually now that I think about it playing a skillbar full of Vampiric Touch/Bite/Kiss/Nibble/Hug/Lick/Etc could be fun. Or maybe just pointless and retarded.
eudas
yeah i saw the copied skills and was like 'hoo boy, it's m:tg all over again'. duplicate skills that do the *exact* same thing simply lead to cheesy abuse.
eudas
eudas
Cador
The main problem that A-net faces, as previously mentioned is that each game has to be a standalone, so that you can play one Prophecies char against a Factions Char, and it will be equal footing. The main reason for this is due to the fact that it is a CMORPG so PvP is a bigger aspect.
sinican
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Erasculio
Those would be overpowered and imbalanced.
If you have a higher cost, people wouldn't use those unless they are better than the other skills. If they are better than the other skills, regadless of the cost, they are imbalanced. The requirements you mention aren't uncommon - everyone has 2 Professions, so the skills that require two classes would simply be overpowered at little cost. The same applies with skills that actually have a requirement - it's not uncommon for people to have a lot of attribute points invested in one direction, therefore said skills would be overpowered at little cost. GW doesn't support "uber" stuff - be it skills or items. The only "uber" stuff that fits within the game is uber player skills, and that's something hard to find. Erasculio |
not to mention the variations of dual classing and the varation ins att alocation within them...
you know all those not so used dual class combinations and attribute alocations this would be a god way to introduce new dual class normalities...
and give those who choose to go pure class a benefit whilst losing the benefits of dual classing...
from your post you dont seem to look at it from this persepctive... yea everyone has dual class but not everyone has the same build nor the same att alocation nor can you be pure class with att alocated in a secondary class
twicky_kid
Dual class skills will be the future of GW. This is present in Mtg with gold cards that are more than 1 color.
I do expect to see them in future chapters its just a question of when and will their req be too steep to use.
I do expect to see them in future chapters its just a question of when and will their req be too steep to use.
0mar
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Originally Posted by Cador
The main problem that A-net faces, as previously mentioned is that each game has to be a standalone, so that you can play one Prophecies char against a Factions Char, and it will be equal footing. The main reason for this is due to the fact that it is a CMORPG so PvP is a bigger aspect.
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Jesse
regarding duplicate spells...did anyone notice that vampiric bite and vampiric touch are similar therefore resulting in touch rangers
tear
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Originally Posted by 0mar
other than being PR material, there is absolutely zero way a person with Factions only can compete in any meaningful way in PvP. It's nice to say that, but in reality, it's just not going to happen. An axe warrior without eviscerate? An e-denier without surge? It's good PR, but that's it.
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Age
What is wrong with sun and the moon pair it up with silverwing slash or galrath along with dragon and it turns out out fine or even 100 blades?It is very decnt at doing out damage the only thing I am disappointed in is sword as well as hammer doesn't have a good interrupt like axe does.There are some good protection and smiting skills for Monks.I am still going through the rRanger and Ele skills though.
draxynnic
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Originally Posted by twicky_kid
Dual class skills will be the future of GW. This is present in Mtg with gold cards that are more than 1 color.
I do expect to see them in future chapters its just a question of when and will their req be too steep to use. |
I think the way I'd see multiple-attribute skills working is by having two variables linked to different attributes - say, damage from one attribute, and a duration from another. For instance, consider a variant of Ash Blast that, instead of requiring a knocked down target to blind, instead required Fire and Earth (and, probably, considerably higher energy to use and other balancing factors, but we'll ignore them for now). Having a higher Fire attribute allows the character to make hotter ash, therefor the damage of the spell is based on that attribute, while a higher Earth magic results in finer ash that is better at getting stuck in people's eyes, resulting in a longer Blind duration.
arcanemacabre
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Originally Posted by draxynnic
Well, to a certain extent there are skills that require two attributes to use to their full extent - Arc Lightning and Gust come to mind. Admittedly, these skills can be employed by synergising with another character rather than carrying all the skills yourself, but it is a step in the general direction.
I think the way I'd see multiple-attribute skills working is by having two variables linked to different attributes - say, damage from one attribute, and a duration from another. For instance, consider a variant of Ash Blast that, instead of requiring a knocked down target to blind, instead required Fire and Earth (and, probably, considerably higher energy to use and other balancing factors, but we'll ignore them for now). Having a higher Fire attribute allows the character to make hotter ash, therefor the damage of the spell is based on that attribute, while a higher Earth magic results in finer ash that is better at getting stuck in people's eyes, resulting in a longer Blind duration. |
Wow. This dual-class skill idea is phenomenol! Exactly the way you explain it, too. It makes a lot of sense. Although that's more dual-attribute, but yeah it works! Now stretch that out to... Say you have a skill called Banishment Lightning, and depending on how much Smiting Prayers you have increases the Holy damage, where depending on how much Air Magic you have increases the Armor penetration.
Oh yes, I like this very much.
Erasculio
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Originally Posted by sinican
from your post you dont seem to look at it from this persepctive...
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If there's a higher cost for a skill, that skill is going to be better than the ones with a lower cost, or it won't be used as often. We see that in game with skills that require, say, more energy.
A dual class skill theorically has a higher cost (which in fact it doesn't), and therefore will be more powerful than the others...There's the imbalance. If you have a Fire/Eath skills that is better than any Fire skill or any Earth skill, guess what people are going to use? To keep the same comparison, while it's obviously better for a skill to cost less energy, a build with 16 Fire Magic and 13 Energy Storage isn't intrinsically better than one with Fire Magic 15, Eath Magic 14 and 4 in Energy Storage.
That's why I think the idea of multi class skills belongs to the cathegory of ideas that would be "cool", but that wouldn't really work in GW.
Erasculio
gamecube187
this "dual class" or "dual attribute" thing seems like it would be really good for the problem of repeating skills and such. Just balance these skills with high energy/adrenaline and/or high recharge and don't make them too powerfull and I think they would be awsome! Lets hope we see this or something similar in future chapters!
sinican
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Originally Posted by gamecube187
this "dual class" or "dual attribute" thing seems like it would be really good for the problem of repeating skills and such. Just balance these skills with high energy/adrenaline and/or high recharge and don't make them too powerfull and I think they would be awsome! Lets hope we see this or something similar in future chapters!
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you could call these core elites if you wanted to or something to the maner of which these skills define builds
arcanemacabre
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Originally Posted by sinican
you wouldnt need to make them longer recharges or cost if there requirement was harder to make you give each type of dual class a few skills from different attrabute allocations... and you balance them perspectivaley
you could call these core elites if you wanted to or something to the maner of which these skills define builds |
The toss-up will be, do you want to put all your points into one attribute and your primary? Or split between two attributes just because of this one skill, and leaving only a few points left for your primary? It's already a decision you have to make, these skills will just make that decision that much tougher.
Markaedw
We kind of have that now, lightning touch and arch lighting, both have extra damage when foe is under a water hex, shields that require divine favor, staffs that halve death skill casting by blood magic, or even conjure ele + damge when carring a weapon the does that ele damage.
Dual skill attacks would simply add a whole new layer to the metagame, they don't need any specially long cast or recharge time, or even be limited to elite
Having attacks that require points in more than one skill would simply stir things up, make those cookie cutter builds a little more interesting.
Lets keep things simple. RA 2 warriors, platemail, both have the same swords, same skills. As it stands now it's pretty a stand still, but add a dual attack skill, say lightning blade, x damage based on strength with x armor pentration based on air magic, now it gets interesting. More damage or more armor penetration, and which warrior went which way?
Dual skill attacks would simply add a whole new layer to the metagame, they don't need any specially long cast or recharge time, or even be limited to elite
Having attacks that require points in more than one skill would simply stir things up, make those cookie cutter builds a little more interesting.
Lets keep things simple. RA 2 warriors, platemail, both have the same swords, same skills. As it stands now it's pretty a stand still, but add a dual attack skill, say lightning blade, x damage based on strength with x armor pentration based on air magic, now it gets interesting. More damage or more armor penetration, and which warrior went which way?
Loshi
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Originally Posted by twicky_kid
Dual class skills will be the future of GW. This is present in Mtg with gold cards that are more than 1 color.
I do expect to see them in future chapters its just a question of when and will their req be too steep to use. |
Rieselle
Although maybe not for Ch3, I think they will definitely need to introduce new mechanics to the base classes if they want to keep adding skills for them.
There's only so many variations of Deal/Heal X damage/ cause condition(s)/ cannot be blocked|evaded / has half range / easily interrupted / has an area of X/ that you can meaningfully do.
There's only so many variations of Deal/Heal X damage/ cause condition(s)/ cannot be blocked|evaded / has half range / easily interrupted / has an area of X/ that you can meaningfully do.
Archangel_92
There's another way of making (less confusing) multi-class skills. Make a skill that is very similar to another in its attribute line, make its variable slightly better (ie more dmg/duration), keep the skill variable linked to a single attribute and add in a "50% chance of failure if <other class's attribute> is less than X"
Curse You
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Originally Posted by Erasculio
A dual class skill theorically has a higher cost (which in fact it doesn't), and therefore will be more powerful than the others...There's the imbalance. If you have a Fire/Eath skills that is better than any Fire skill or any Earth skill, guess what people are going to use? To keep the same comparison, while it's obviously better for a skill to cost less energy, a build with 16 Fire Magic and 13 Energy Storage isn't intrinsically better than one with Fire Magic 15, Eath Magic 14 and 4 in Energy Storage.
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Remember kiddies, runes and headgear don't have to raise an atribute to 16, they have other uses too.