How much re-balancing is too much balancing?

milias

milias

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Nov 2005

Defected back to America

Me/E

Hi all! Some people claim that change is good and it keeps the game fresh and interesting; however, as with anything else, can too much of it be a bad thing? Some seem to think so, as is evident in the amount of discontent seen with the latest updates. So what do you think? Is ANet re-balancing too much?

Question:

What do you think of the current level of re-balancing by ANet?

Choices:

It's too much
It's just right
It's too little
Pudding!

Again, I apologize for any choices that I neglected to include. Happy voting!

darkchakra

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jan 2006

Pretty Pink Pwnies [PPP]

Me/

In my opinion, it's just a little too much. People whine about one thing (ie, touchers), and then they go on and nerf warriors? Some people are even quitting the game

Asrial

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2005

Centurion Guard

Mo/E

You see these responses with every major update.

milias

milias

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Nov 2005

Defected back to America

Me/E

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asrial
You see these responses with every major update.
That's true, but I'm talking about the totality of all of these updates, and what effects they have on the general player population, and how they are received as a whole.

Andy_M

Andy_M

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2005

Worthing, UK

(Don't fear) The Beaver

I just wish they would stop buggering around with PvE. To be honest I couldn't care less about PvP 'balance', except that it constantly affects PvE.

Silent Kitty

Silent Kitty

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2006

Netherlands

[TYW] "The Young World"

A/Me

This game is not balanced. Every time when something gets nerved, it is in favour of the monsters we fight. The individual player gets weaker and weaker, while monsters are not touched or only get stronger.
Maybe it's balanced PvP wise, but certainly not PvE wise.

LoKi Foxfire

LoKi Foxfire

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Apr 2005

Florida

One Corgi Army {OCA}

R/Rt

I think they use constant rebalancing to direct attention away from the fact that a lot of features people have been asking for months and months have not been implemented. Hell, storage was a horrible solution for anyone who has a lot of non-stackables (ie, everyone)...

I hope PCgamer rates the next Chapter lower and lower every time they have no grouping tools. It's 2006, not freaking 1998. (Hell, even EQ had a better initial grouping function than Guild Wars has after a year of the game being out)

Shaznat

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Aug 2005

I personally come from the PvP side of the game, and I think they should make balances more often. There are so many skills in this game that are overlooked and unused, while there are others that are staples to almost any successful build. If they made balances more often, the metagame would change more often, and would make for a more interesting experience...

Divinus Stella

Divinus Stella

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2005

Wales

Steel Phoenix

I like some updates and hate others but as far as im concerned all change is good, i think they need to be more heavy handed and change the game a bit more with updates, i dont mind playing a game where things are unbalanced, aslong as the scales tip every so often.

I'd love to see the pvp side of the game shift faster, FoTM builds are great when they are only for the month.

As for PvE i think its less balance thats needed, but more maintainance, things go stale in MMO games, farming spots are abused and botted, the economy falls into dis-repair, changing mobs rather than skills, at the same time as closing one farming area, open another to be found.

Divinus Stella

Divinus Stella

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2005

Wales

Steel Phoenix

Sorry about double post, usual database errors and such.

primal98

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Apr 2005

Rebalancing seems more like just mass nerfing than balancing. But then again I don't really care that much

~prime

Opeth11

Opeth11

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Oct 2005

Richmond, British Columbia, Kanada

Demon of the Fall [Opet]

Mo/Me

Quote:
Originally Posted by primal98
Rebalancing seems more like just mass nerfing than balancing. But then again I don't really care that much

~prime
Nerfs are balances. They just change something that was above average and take it down a notch.

Matix411

Matix411

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Feb 2006

Ontario

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silent Kitty
This game is not balanced. Every time when something gets nerved, it is in favour of the monsters we fight. The individual player gets weaker and weaker, while monsters are not touched or only get stronger.
Maybe it's balanced PvP wise, but certainly not PvE wise.


PVE is getting absolutely ridiculous.
There's no concept of 'just exploring' anymore, because the amount of in-game monster mobs is getting outrageous.
I know, for places like Marhan's Grotto in prophecies, there are missions that get you closer, if not directly to the town. But if you're a true RPer like myself, you want to run yourself there, and you want to do it in a fun, adventurous way.

Well, step outside Thunderhead Keep, and it's what ... hordes upon hordes of ice imps. I don't want to fight these alone, let alone with henchies. I get overpowered, every time. I can barely even pull them because they're so crunched together, and they all move about so much.

It's sad when you want to get some place without having to do missions for once, and having to pay 1-3k to get there, and then, having the runner FAIL because they themselves can't even do it.



There's all this balancing going on with characters, and it seems like it's all for PvP. Now casters have an easier time dealing with warriors, ok, cool. So PvP is balanced. I don't PvP that much because my computer can't handle it, so I PvE. But now that our characters have been nerfed so much, and continue to be nerfed, I have such a hard time getting anywhere remotely important.


Other people may have an easier time doing it, that's good for them. I'm just saying I often find myself exiting the game because I can't do a simple task like exploring.



[edit] All of this indeed may not be a cause of simple nerfing. I am not saying I am a professional player, nor anywhere near as experienced as others. But in terms of people who are just beginning to play, I find some areas, especially in Factions, to be a little bit overwhelming. Whether this is a cause of all the 'balancing' that's been going on, I have no idea. It just strikes me as interesting.

Skawtt

Skawtt

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jun 2005

Oregon

W/N

I think its just right. But then again I dont do cookie cutter builds or sets of armor.

Esprit

Esprit

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2005

Dvd Forums [DVDF]

E/

You shouldn't have put pudding as an option, I was hungry.

I didn't see the armor balance coming, I was a bit surprised. I know Anet does not owe us an explanantion, but a little blurb for the reason of the balance would be nice.

Eet GnomeSmasher

Banned

Join Date: Apr 2005

In my head

Dont we already have enough gripe threads about the recent updates? We get it, you dont like updates "tinkering with your PVE"

milias

milias

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Nov 2005

Defected back to America

Me/E

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eet GnomeSmasher
Dont we already have enough gripe threads about the recent updates? We get it, you dont like updates "tinkering with your PVE"
Hi Eet GnomeSmasher, I did not intend for this thread to become a gripe thread. It was meant to be impartial and neutral, as is reflected in the poll choices. People are free to express their opinions, just as you're entitled to yours.

Eet GnomeSmasher

Banned

Join Date: Apr 2005

In my head

Alright, I'll play along. But funny how these "impartial and nuetral" type of polls only pop up in droves after a controversial update.

Anyway, I dont think there is too much balancing at all at this point. Heck, there isnt enough skill balancing at this point. My opinion is that if you can't stand change then don't play MMOs... go play something standalone on the console.

milias

milias

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Nov 2005

Defected back to America

Me/E

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eet GnomeSmasher
Alright, I'll play along. But funny how these "impartial and nuetral" type of polls only pop up in droves after a controversial update.
Well, they're not unrelated. I must admit that I did create this poll after seeing the other threads. Since quite a few people felt pretty passionate about this issue, I thought it would be informative to gauge how the community felt as a whole.

Guardian of the Light

Guardian of the Light

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2005

Radicals Against Tyrants

W/

Hey there isn't enough choices

I wanted to pick ice cream instead of pudding

KamikazeChicken

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2005

Mo/

Anything Anet could possibly do update wise is too little. This is because the chance of buffing all the worthless skills is extremely low, but they do well at balancing overpowered things properly.

<3 Izzy and the people who help him.

Kaguya

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2006

Moon

Mo/

I choose PUDDING!

I mean, can you do such thing as balance too much? Balance is when the ye olde scale is in the middle between both sides. If there's no balance, then the scales go too much in one direction or another.

Balance is good, there's never too much balance. Maybe the question should be, is ANet balancing too fast for the playerbase?

floppinghog

floppinghog

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2005

pit of brimstone

Squad Six Six Six [ssss]

A/Me

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matix411
PVE is getting absolutely ridiculous.
There's no concept of 'just exploring' anymore, because the amount of in-game monster mobs is getting outrageous.
I know, for places like Marhan's Grotto in prophecies, there are missions that get you closer, if not directly to the town. But if you're a true RPer like myself, you want to run yourself there, and you want to do it in a fun, adventurous way.

Other people may have an easier time doing it, that's good for them. I'm just saying I often find myself exiting the game because I can't do a simple task like exploring.
I agree with you in terms of exploring, the areas are called explorable area... well to be honest i can't even look at the sky without being mobbed.. lol even after i kill em all its still got the feeling of just work. i wanna walk around too, in an area like the crystal desert - you could explore there, for what it was worth, you could.

i'm hoping gw nightfall is like prophecies in respects to open lands, less mobs crunched together, and more about the PVE more about the enviroment. (yes Anet, give us the ability to break down bridges like it was advertised - yes i remember your statements.. its about time we saw more than gate locks.)

on topic: balance whatever, but i would like more of an explaination as to why some updates are done - damn it.

Silent Kitty

Silent Kitty

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2006

Netherlands

[TYW] "The Young World"

A/Me

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaguya
Balance is good, there's never too much balance. Maybe the question should be, is ANet balancing too fast for the playerbase?
Or you could ask yourself if the pvp balancing is unbalancing pve? My answer is "Yes!", but I already know what Anet's policy is. They gladly sacrifice pve gameplay for pvp gameplay.

Sectus

Sectus

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2005

Miss Meow Meow's Guild

I personally think they should do as much balancing which is necessary. And I think they should do more balancing than what has been done. There's currently builds out there which are very unpopular and which many feel destroy the fun of the game. I'd like to see anet re-balance those (and if they can't be balanced properly, destroy the builds)

I don't have anything against nerfs. There's been plenty of times skills I reguarly use has been nerfed, but as long as it was changed for a good reason I think it's great.

I just hope that anet will be willing to actually change how skills works instead of re-balancing numbers. I think something like IWAY shouldn't be balanced, I think it should be changed so much it can't be used in the way it's used now. Because it's in the current state it's just not fun.

Crimson Ashwood

Crimson Ashwood

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Apr 2006

Australia

Angels of Cthulhu

N/

?!?! ... is there ever such thing as too much "balancing", in a game that's SUPPOSED to be balanced. I mean, come on!!! Balancing is ongoing, to be accepted. If you don't LIKE balancing, stay away from balanced online RPG's... go play Neverwinter or something.

I'm all for balancing, and the recent update made the elementalists more effective. GOOD! Maybe I'll see some in town someday... rather than a mass of warriors LFG. :/

twicky_kid

twicky_kid

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2005

Quite Vulgar [FUN]

I don't mind updates or balancing. They need to do more updates more often.

My problem is when Anet decides to nerf something they try to hit a home run with the nerf bat. Instead they should do it in small adjustments instead of nerfing past it being usable. Then 6 months later decide to bring it up to par with the other options. E-drain is the perfect example of this. There are many more examples of the same behavior.

More updates with small adjustments.

majoho

majoho

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jul 2006

Denmark

It's a fair subject but useless as a poll.

Why? Since no one here are able to properly assess if the balance is right.

People will have opinions on it, but they will also be super biased one way or the other.

Abdul

Academy Page

Join Date: May 2005

Not enough balancing imho, still a ton of useless skills that never get buffed (eg. Otyugh's Cry) or when they do get buffed, the change is so insignificant it doesn't matter (eg. Dwarven Battle Stance which has been buffed multiple times and is still a waste of an elite skill).

As for PvP changes affecting PvE, I see this as an excellent thing. PvE is already too easy and quite stale, any change to increase the challenge, or encourage players to try new tactics is for the better. Personally, the warrior 'nerf' has made very little difference for me in PvE, I really think players are just using this balance issue as a scapegoat for their poor playing skills.

Opeth11

Opeth11

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Oct 2005

Richmond, British Columbia, Kanada

Demon of the Fall [Opet]

Mo/Me

Pudding sure is coming up recently as the wildcard in polls =/

Crimson Ashwood

Crimson Ashwood

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Apr 2006

Australia

Angels of Cthulhu

N/

Quote:
Originally Posted by majoho
It's a fair subject but useless as a poll.

Why? Since no one here are able to properly assess if the balance is right.

People will have opinions on it, but they will also be super biased one way or the other.
SUCH a good point. How many people truely believe that have a full and total understanding of all the skills, they way they work and the impact of skill tweaking on real in game dynamics. Not many I'd say, I sure as hell don't.

Give the Guild Wars team a little credit for what they do.

Beat_Go_Stick

Beat_Go_Stick

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Feb 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaznat
I personally come from the PvP side of the game, and I think they should make balances more often. There are so many skills in this game that are overlooked and unused, while there are others that are staples to almost any successful build. If they made balances more often, the metagame would change more often, and would make for a more interesting experience...
Ah, but the problem is that the updates they seem to do is simply to nerf the skills that are being overused and to fix the ones they've previously nerfed. How often do updates make skills useless? Very often. How often do you see updates make skills that are so lame they can't even be used properly in PvE? Rarely...and that's being generous.

If you ask how often I would like them to balance skills that are underpowered to allow for more variety when it comes to skill bars, my answer would be 'bring on as many as you can'. Unfortunately nearly every one of the updates they perform makes the game less fun and more limiting instead of more diverse and vast.

That, my friends, we've had too much of.

Fyre Brand

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Sep 2005

Shadowlight Order [SoR]

Quote:
Originally Posted by twicky_kid
I don't mind updates or balancing. They need to do more updates more often.

My problem is when Anet decides to nerf something they try to hit a home run with the nerf bat. Instead they should do it in small adjustments instead of nerfing past it being usable. Then 6 months later decide to bring it up to par with the other options. E-drain is the perfect example of this. There are many more examples of the same behavior.

More updates with small adjustments.
I think they do that mostly. I like smooth minor adjustments too. But sometimes it's nice when they shake the playing field up a little. This last update was great. I think they are doing a good job with the updates and not throwing too many of us at once.

WhiteZombie

WhiteZombie

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Feb 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silent Kitty
This game is not balanced. Every time when something gets nerved, it is in favour of the monsters we fight. The individual player gets weaker and weaker, while monsters are not touched or only get stronger.
Maybe it's balanced PvP wise, but certainly not PvE wise.
pve is easy enough already.

Jetdoc

Jetdoc

Hell's Protector

Join Date: Jul 2005

The Eyes of Texas [BEVO]

D/A

Mmmm...pudding.

Markaedw

Markaedw

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2005

N/

Of course PvE will always be second place to PvP, are there celebrity PvE players in asia, when was the last time there was a Droks Run world champianship, or a internationally veiwed THK mission. PvP is what gets attention. As such PvP will alwys get preferred status, lets face it no matter what A-Net says, PvE will always be treated as second class. Any skills/armor that hurts PvP, regardless of it's effect on PvE, will be altered.

Shadow-Hunter

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jan 2006

Denmark

[HH] [Hax]

Mo/

Well looking at the last update as a Warrior player im pretty #¤"#¤"¤#ARRR#¤" over it... The knights/Ascalon fix where okay, since it was stupid that my boots could reduce dmg for the whole body. But making the Shields only absorb pysical dmg has been .... very annoying... Becouse that 2-5 extra dmg aint much for some.. But while tanking alot of enemys that crappy 5 absorb turns into alot of reduced dmg..

The Dmg reduce was mainly what made the Warrior into a better tank than a Goemancer, and other chars that just buff on their def.. Yea warriors still got absorb vs Pyscial.. But seeing how anet is trying to avoid areas with pure pysical dmg enemys (they are trying to avoid ppl farming -.-) then there is allways alot of huge dmg ele mobs there, along with some mesmers and necros.. So that Pysical absorb aint really worth shit..

looking at the "update" of factions itself.. Then i dont really like it.. The old explore thing where you walk around and watch the nice stuff there is like in the dessert and Southern siverpeaks is just gone.. Cantha is just ucked imo.. you walk, a little and get either Arm fah or Onis into your face from out of nowhere..

also there aint really the good old places being wierdly long away like Dragons something that is north of the Flame temple corridor.. Great place imo.. Some unique mobs, but still the thing that you can explore the area and walk alittle around.. Not just some close packed place full of dredges that has healers that is somewhere undefeatable with henches and the like..

Also Running in cantha is pretty much gone.. since you need a quest before being able to enter the new town, and the dude who want to enter that town need to be there himself x.x And further then all places that seems runable has all kinds of enemys that is just impossible to run past without Echo Spellbreaker..

One place we had to run in Cantha was the luxon supply running witch was pretty fun untill it got nerfed.. =/


I mean sure i can take changes.. But i just think that Anets way of "balancing" allways seems to be: Nerf the most build/skill/Char that is most overpowered in PvP atm. Then the 2nd most overpowered build or what ever gets used for a while untill that get hit by a mega nerf..

~Shadow

Caleb

Caleb

Nil nisi malis terrori.

Join Date: Aug 2005

Mo/Me

Quote:
Originally Posted by KamikazeChicken
Anything Anet could possibly do update wise is too little. This is because the chance of buffing all the worthless skills is extremely low, but they do well at balancing overpowered things properly.

<3 Izzy and the people who help him.
I couldn't have said this better.

Guild Terror

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Nov 2005

anet are nerfin the wrong things, there are bigger issues that need solving, but there solving the little issues

and pve is cared for more than pvp, most of gw players are pve, there are updates because face it, when skills are nerfed it has a bigger impact on pvp, pve is almost unaffected, accept from a few peoples builds.

solve the big issues

Alleji

Alleji

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silent Kitty
This game is not balanced. Every time when something gets nerved, it is in favour of the monsters we fight. The individual player gets weaker and weaker, while monsters are not touched or only get stronger.
Maybe it's balanced PvP wise, but certainly not PvE wise.
Because monsters totally don't use the skills we do.

And yes, it's not balanced PvE-wise. If you do everything the proper way PvE is ridiculously easy anyway. (And by "proper" I mean don't attempt to walk from drok's to grotto bypassing missions at lvl 14, get groups for the few hard missions instead of henching them, etc)